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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 27, 2017 14:24:20 GMT
I was referring to if there were a new end for 6 and it contradicted The Brink of Death. How would it work, I wonder, when 8's audio companions are officially canonical? Officially there is no canon. 8's companions are mentioned in Night of the Doctor, therefore officially canonical.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 14:25:51 GMT
Officially there is no canon. 8's companions are mentioned in Night of the Doctor, therefore officially canonical. If there is officially no canon, how can those events be officially canonical?
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 27, 2017 14:29:04 GMT
Officially there is no canon. 8's companions are mentioned in Night of the Doctor, therefore officially canonical. There is no canon, but televised broadcast stories have primacy above all others (however daft, looking at you "Kill the Moon"!) and therefore 8's regeneration and listing of his BF companions lifts them, and the argument is the rest of his BF material at least, and the other BF Who material at most, into that level.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 27, 2017 14:29:17 GMT
8's companions are mentioned in Night of the Doctor, therefore officially canonical. If there is officially no canon, how can those events be officially canonical? Because they were referenced in Night of the Doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 14:33:09 GMT
If there is officially no canon, how can those events be officially canonical? Because they were referenced in Night of the Doctor. Which wasn't broadcast on the television, it was internet only, wasn't it?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 27, 2017 14:34:15 GMT
Because they were referenced in Night of the Doctor. Which wasn't broadcast on the television, it was internet only, wasn't it? But still a part of TV Series continuity.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 14:39:29 GMT
Which wasn't broadcast on the television, it was internet only, wasn't it? But still a part of TV Series continuity. Only if you want it to be. Robert Shearman wrote Dalek, which is part of TV continuity, which makes his writing canonical. He also wrote The Holy Terror for Big Finish, featuring Frobisher. Does that make Frobisher canocial? Does that make the comic strips canonical? In which case, the Voords are the race that became The Cybermen, because it was featured in a comic strip for DWM. John and Gillian are The First Doctor's grandchildren because they featured in the earliest comic strips, back in the 60's. I'm exaggerating of course - or am I? Canon is a sticky wicket - just where does it end? Or even begin?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 27, 2017 14:41:38 GMT
But still a part of TV Series continuity. Only if you want it to be. Robert Shearman wrote Dalek, which is part of TV continuity, which makes his writing canonical. He also wrote The Holy Terror for Big Finish, featuring Frobisher. Does that make Frobisher canocial? Does that make the comic strips canonical? In which case, the Voords are the race that became The Cybermen, because it was featured in a comic strip for DWM. John and Gillian are The First Doctor's grandchildren because they featured in the earliest comic strips, back in the 60's. I'm exaggerating of course - or am I? Canon is a sticky wicket - just where does it end? Or even begin? Frobisher has to be canon because the 8th Doctor's audio companions are and as you pointed out, Frobisher featured in a Big Finish audio.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 14:46:16 GMT
Only if you want it to be. Robert Shearman wrote Dalek, which is part of TV continuity, which makes his writing canonical. He also wrote The Holy Terror for Big Finish, featuring Frobisher. Does that make Frobisher canocial? Does that make the comic strips canonical? In which case, the Voords are the race that became The Cybermen, because it was featured in a comic strip for DWM. John and Gillian are The First Doctor's grandchildren because they featured in the earliest comic strips, back in the 60's. I'm exaggerating of course - or am I? Canon is a sticky wicket - just where does it end? Or even begin? Frobisher has to be canon because the 8th Doctor's audio companions are and as you pointed out, Frobisher featured in a Big Finish audio. Is The Boy That Time Forgot canon, do you reason? {Spoiler for The Boy That Time Forgot} Adric survives events in Earthshock and is played by Andrew Sachs as a bitter old man - these events happened in a Big Finish audio, and some people passionately deny its place in Doctor Who history. Canon is not a gestalt entity, it isn't for you or I to say what is canon, only the version of events we choose to include.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 27, 2017 14:47:14 GMT
Because they were referenced in Night of the Doctor. Which wasn't broadcast on the television, it was internet only, wasn't it? That makes a difference how? It was initially available on Iplayer as opposed to the net in general, and that's the BBC. Broadcasting is broadcasting, and you need a TV licence to legally use it
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 27, 2017 14:51:56 GMT
But still a part of TV Series continuity. Only if you want it to be. Robert Shearman wrote Dalek, which is part of TV continuity, which makes his writing canonical. He also wrote The Holy Terror for Big Finish, featuring Frobisher. Does that make Frobisher canocial? Yes If you're talking taking the BF material into a primacy level. No. Or at least I don't know how you make that leap because that's, to coin a phrase, descending from primacy level.
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Post by sherlock on Apr 27, 2017 14:54:30 GMT
Officially there is no canon. 8's companions are mentioned in Night of the Doctor, therefore officially canonical. My point is there is no 'official' canon. The BBC cannot say what is and is not canon, unlike Lucasfilm can for Star Wars, so thus officially there is no canon. It's literally up to the individual's interpretation. Personally I take The Night of the Doctor references to mean Big Finish is canon with the TV series, however that's just my take. There is no official stance.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 27, 2017 14:57:13 GMT
Frobisher has to be canon because the 8th Doctor's audio companions are and as you pointed out, Frobisher featured in a Big Finish audio. Is The Boy That Time Forgot canon, do you reason? {Spoiler for The Boy That Time Forgot} Adric survives events in Earthshock and is played by Andrew Sachs as a bitter old man - these events happened in a Big Finish audio, and some people passionately deny its place in Doctor Who history. Canon is not a gestalt entity, it isn't for you or I to say what is canon, only the version of events we choose to include. It kind of has to be given that 8's audio companions are.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 14:59:36 GMT
Only if you want it to be. Robert Shearman wrote Dalek, which is part of TV continuity, which makes his writing canonical. He also wrote The Holy Terror for Big Finish, featuring Frobisher. Does that make Frobisher canocial? Yes If you're talking taking the BF material into a primacy level. No. Or at least I don't know how you make that leap because that's, to coin a phrase, descending from primacy level. Ah yes. I think! But why should BF be on a primacy level and the comic strips not? Even as far back as The Second/Third Doctor, there were links between strip and television - Jamie as an established companion, events occuring in the comic strip between The War Games and Spearhead from Space - don't these things elevate the comic strip to canon?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 15:00:47 GMT
Is The Boy That Time Forgot canon, do you reason? {Spoiler for The Boy That Time Forgot} Adric survives events in Earthshock and is played by Andrew Sachs as a bitter old man - these events happened in a Big Finish audio, and some people passionately deny its place in Doctor Who history. Canon is not a gestalt entity, it isn't for you or I to say what is canon, only the version of events we choose to include. It kind of has to be given that 8's audio companions are. But Adric was a TV companion - his fate as portrayed on audio is surely part of canon, especially if BF's own companions are.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 27, 2017 15:10:51 GMT
Yes If you're talking taking the BF material into a primacy level. No. Or at least I don't know how you make that leap because that's, to coin a phrase, descending from primacy level. Ah yes. I think! But why should BF be on a primacy level and the comic strips not? Even as far back as The Second/Third Doctor, there were links between strip and television - Jamie as an established companion, events occuring in the comic strip between The War Games and Spearhead from Space - don't these things elevate the comic strip to canon? Ah, fun debate! I'd argue no, (not that I'm arguing for a set canon anyway!) in that the comic events aren't referenced outside of themselves in "Spearhead..." or later on any broadcast episode, whereas in NOTD the BF material IS referenced. I'm currently taking the view, which is mine alone, that TV/BF has a primacy, and everything else has latency. This has developed due to the simple fact that we have stories officially sanctioned that star the Doctors and Companions etc. I'm liking the Star Wars current model re pre 2014 material, where it's all there but now classed as Legends but could yet be returned to primacy if reintroduced to the main canon, like Thrawn in Star Wars Rebels. Again, just my own take on things.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 27, 2017 15:11:36 GMT
It kind of has to be given that 8's audio companions are. But Adric was a TV companion - his fate as portrayed on audio is surely part of canon, especially if BF's own companions are. I'd agree that his fate is, however much I dislike that particular story!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 15:16:44 GMT
Ah yes. I think! But why should BF be on a primacy level and the comic strips not? Even as far back as The Second/Third Doctor, there were links between strip and television - Jamie as an established companion, events occuring in the comic strip between The War Games and Spearhead from Space - don't these things elevate the comic strip to canon? Ah, fun debate! I'd argue no, (not that I'm arguing for a set canon anyway!) in that the comic events aren't referenced outside of themselves in "Spearhead..." or later on any broadcast episode, whereas in NOTD the BF material IS referenced. I'm currently taking the view, which is mine alone, that TV/BF has a primacy, and everything else has latency. This has developed due to the simple fact that we have stories officially sanctioned that star the Doctors and Companions etc. I'm liking the Star Wars current model re pre 2014 material, where it's all there but now classed as Legends but could yet be returned to primacy if reintroduced to the main canon, like Thrawn in Star Wars Rebels. Again, just my own take on things. I think, on the whole, I would agree with that. It seemed to take years for BF's output to be accepted as anything other than 'fan fiction' (not that there's anything wrong with that), but now, possibly even well before The Night of the Doctor's endorsements, the company was becoming more and more 'accepted.' I think everyone has their own take on what is canon and what is not, and that's probably the easiest way of things! The mistake is when some assume that their canon is the only canon. I feel Dalekbuster's take on it is quite selective. He rejects, for example The War Machines, because it references The Doctor as Doctor Who - and yet it is a television episode, and therefore must surely be official. But that may well be a whole different debate ...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 15:18:04 GMT
But Adric was a TV companion - his fate as portrayed on audio is surely part of canon, especially if BF's own companions are. I'd agree that his fate is, however much I dislike that particular story! I quite liked it. It would be nice to see BF releasing other 'brave' stories of that nature, in my view. Do you feel it undermined the ending of Earthshock, or just didn't tell a story you didn't care for?
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 27, 2017 15:26:49 GMT
I'd agree that his fate is, however much I dislike that particular story! I quite liked it. It would be nice to see BF releasing other 'brave' stories of that nature, in my view. Do you feel it undermined the ending of Earthshock, or just didn't tell a story you didn't care for? There was a definite story hidden in there that I thought could have been good. I found Adric's treatment in the story creepy and just repellent. As for undermining Earthshock? It did to some extent though enough time had passed for that not to be "too soon!". Brave? Something like "the Natural History of Fear" for me is brave, "Scherzo" is brave (even if I personally think it overrated), I didn't think this was.
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