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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 27, 2017 15:34:02 GMT
Ah, fun debate! I'd argue no, (not that I'm arguing for a set canon anyway!) in that the comic events aren't referenced outside of themselves in "Spearhead..." or later on any broadcast episode, whereas in NOTD the BF material IS referenced. I'm currently taking the view, which is mine alone, that TV/BF has a primacy, and everything else has latency. This has developed due to the simple fact that we have stories officially sanctioned that star the Doctors and Companions etc. I'm liking the Star Wars current model re pre 2014 material, where it's all there but now classed as Legends but could yet be returned to primacy if reintroduced to the main canon, like Thrawn in Star Wars Rebels. Again, just my own take on things. I think, on the whole, I would agree with that. It seemed to take years for BF's output to be accepted as anything other than 'fan fiction' (not that there's anything wrong with that), but now, possibly even well before The Night of the Doctor's endorsements, the company was becoming more and more 'accepted.' I think everyone has their own take on what is canon and what is not, and that's probably the easiest way of things! The mistake is when some assume that their canon is the only canon. I feel Dalekbuster's take on it is quite selective. He rejects, for example The War Machines, because it references The Doctor as Doctor Who - and yet it is a television episode, and therefore must surely be official. But that may well be a whole different debate ... The Doctor can call himself whatever he likes, it's not his given name anyway! AS for what other people call him? He has no control over that. As to what writers do? They're inconsistent anyway, though with the modern ease of finding reference material I find that just lazy, earlier writers had hard times finding scripts, if they even looked for them, never mind entire wiki's devoted to things! And you can usually tell the age of a fan depending on how they refer to the Doctor considering that was probably how he was referenced in the credits when they started watching. So Capaldi calls him Doctor Who? When did he become a fan? See Tennant, he called the Doctor "The Doctor", because that was how HIS Doctor, 5, was credited.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 27, 2017 15:37:26 GMT
It kind of has to be given that 8's audio companions are. But Adric was a TV companion - his fate as portrayed on audio is surely part of canon, especially if BF's own companions are. That's what I was saying. So he 'died' in Earthshock, but we find out later that he didn't.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 27, 2017 15:42:26 GMT
Ah, fun debate! I'd argue no, (not that I'm arguing for a set canon anyway!) in that the comic events aren't referenced outside of themselves in "Spearhead..." or later on any broadcast episode, whereas in NOTD the BF material IS referenced. I'm currently taking the view, which is mine alone, that TV/BF has a primacy, and everything else has latency. This has developed due to the simple fact that we have stories officially sanctioned that star the Doctors and Companions etc. I'm liking the Star Wars current model re pre 2014 material, where it's all there but now classed as Legends but could yet be returned to primacy if reintroduced to the main canon, like Thrawn in Star Wars Rebels. Again, just my own take on things. I think, on the whole, I would agree with that. It seemed to take years for BF's output to be accepted as anything other than 'fan fiction' (not that there's anything wrong with that), but now, possibly even well before The Night of the Doctor's endorsements, the company was becoming more and more 'accepted.' I think everyone has their own take on what is canon and what is not, and that's probably the easiest way of things! The mistake is when some assume that their canon is the only canon. I feel Dalekbuster's take on it is quite selective. He rejects, for example The War Machines, because it references The Doctor as Doctor Who - and yet it is a television episode, and therefore must surely be official. But that may well be a whole different debate ... I count The War Machines as canon, but think it's disappointing that they assumed the Doctor's name was 'Doctor Who' when the whole point of the title of the show is that it's asking who 'The Doctor' is. 'Doctor Who' is just too cheesy to be taken seriously as a name The Doctor would go by. My head canon is that WOTAN's programming was faulty, heard someone ask 'Doctor who'? and assumed that was The Doctor's name.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 15:44:25 GMT
I think, on the whole, I would agree with that. It seemed to take years for BF's output to be accepted as anything other than 'fan fiction' (not that there's anything wrong with that), but now, possibly even well before The Night of the Doctor's endorsements, the company was becoming more and more 'accepted.' I think everyone has their own take on what is canon and what is not, and that's probably the easiest way of things! The mistake is when some assume that their canon is the only canon. I feel Dalekbuster's take on it is quite selective. He rejects, for example The War Machines, because it references The Doctor as Doctor Who - and yet it is a television episode, and therefore must surely be official. But that may well be a whole different debate ... The Doctor can call himself whatever he likes, it's not his given name anyway! AS for what other people call him? He has no control over that. As to what writers do? They're inconsistent anyway, though with the modern ease of finding reference material I find that just lazy, earlier writers had hard times finding scripts, if they even looked for them, never mind entire wiki's devoted to things! And you can usually tell the age of a fan depending on how they refer to the Doctor considering that was probably how he was referenced in the credits when they started watching. So Capaldi calls him Doctor Who? When did he become a fan? See Tennant, he called the Doctor "The Doctor", because that was how HIS Doctor, 5, was credited. I sometimes wonder if Capaldi continues to refer to the character as Doctor Who because, teasingly, he knows it winds some people up?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 15:46:46 GMT
I think, on the whole, I would agree with that. It seemed to take years for BF's output to be accepted as anything other than 'fan fiction' (not that there's anything wrong with that), but now, possibly even well before The Night of the Doctor's endorsements, the company was becoming more and more 'accepted.' I think everyone has their own take on what is canon and what is not, and that's probably the easiest way of things! The mistake is when some assume that their canon is the only canon. I feel Dalekbuster's take on it is quite selective. He rejects, for example The War Machines, because it references The Doctor as Doctor Who - and yet it is a television episode, and therefore must surely be official. But that may well be a whole different debate ... I count The War Machines as canon, but think it's disappointing that they assumed the Doctor's name was 'Doctor Who' when the whole point of the title of the show is that it's asking who 'The Doctor' is. 'Doctor Who' is just too cheesy to be taken seriously as a name The Doctor would go by. My head canon is that WOTAN's programming was faulty, heard someone ask 'Doctor who'? and assumed that was The Doctor's name. That's what I mean about 'canon' being selective. We refer to it when it pleases us, but when it doesn't we make up our own excuses/reasons for the shortcoming. Not that there's any right or wrong with this - but to then insist that one's own idea of canon is the only one, that's when I have a problem. Do you see what I am saying?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 15:58:37 GMT
I disagree. Every surviving Doctor is recognizably their Doctor. You think Colin Baker could appear on the TV show dressed in a Sixth Doctor costume and that would look recognisably like his Doctor? No I said the opposite of that. Colin Baker in his sixth doctor costume would look like an old man cos-playing. Sorry I misread. Thought you were responding to me, not to DB.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 16:08:36 GMT
If there is officially no canon, how can those events be officially canonical? Because they were referenced in Night of the Doctor. Only a list of names were referenced. In no way does that impact The Brink of Death. Cardiff would happily contradict anything that happened in any Big Finish story if they felt like it. After all they're not afraid to contradict earlier TV stories.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 16:13:31 GMT
Is The Boy That Time Forgot canon, do you reason? {Spoiler for The Boy That Time Forgot} Adric survives events in Earthshock and is played by Andrew Sachs as a bitter old man - these events happened in a Big Finish audio, and some people passionately deny its place in Doctor Who history. Canon is not a gestalt entity, it isn't for you or I to say what is canon, only the version of events we choose to include. It kind of has to be given that 8's audio companions are. There's a logic gap there so big a truck could be driven through it. So if Frobisher is canon because Charley is canon, then your logic is that all the comics are canon because Frobisher is. So are Gillian and John canon?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 27, 2017 16:23:16 GMT
It kind of has to be given that 8's audio companions are. There's a logic gap there so big a truck could be driven through it. So if Frobisher is canon because Charley is canon, then your logic is that all the comics are canon because Frobisher is. So are Gillian and John canon? Yeah, because why not?
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 27, 2017 16:24:47 GMT
It kind of has to be given that 8's audio companions are. There's a logic gap there so big a truck could be driven through it. So if Frobisher is canon because Charley is canon, then your logic is that all the comics are canon because Frobisher is. So are Gillian and John canon? No, the logic is Frobisher is "canon" because Frobisher appeared as a BF companion (of sorts), not that Frobisher appeared as a comics companion as well. If Gillian and John were BF companions too then they would be, but they aren't because they're not BF companions. DB is clearly drawing a line there.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 27, 2017 16:26:21 GMT
There's a logic gap there so big a truck could be driven through it. So if Frobisher is canon because Charley is canon, then your logic is that all the comics are canon because Frobisher is. So are Gillian and John canon? No, the logic is Frobisher is "canon" because Frobisher appeared as a BF companion (of sorts), not that Frobisher appeared as a comics companion as well. If Gillian and John were BF companions too then they would be, but they aren't because they're not BF companions. DB is clearly drawing a line there. Oh, apparently he isn't! Well, then *I* am! LOL.
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Post by Whovitt on Apr 27, 2017 22:25:40 GMT
I think, on the whole, I would agree with that. It seemed to take years for BF's output to be accepted as anything other than 'fan fiction' (not that there's anything wrong with that), but now, possibly even well before The Night of the Doctor's endorsements, the company was becoming more and more 'accepted.' I think everyone has their own take on what is canon and what is not, and that's probably the easiest way of things! The mistake is when some assume that their canon is the only canon. I feel Dalekbuster's take on it is quite selective. He rejects, for example The War Machines, because it references The Doctor as Doctor Who - and yet it is a television episode, and therefore must surely be official. But that may well be a whole different debate ... I count The War Machines as canon, but think it's disappointing that they assumed the Doctor's name was 'Doctor Who' when the whole point of the title of the show is that it's asking who 'The Doctor' is. 'Doctor Who' is just too cheesy to be taken seriously as a name The Doctor would go by. My head canon is that WOTAN's programming was faulty, heard someone ask 'Doctor who'? and assumed that was The Doctor's name. Except, as an 'integral' part of the story (I say that, but it isn't really), it is clearly stated (and proven) that WOTAN has never made a mistake - it even accurately answers the question Dodo poses it: "What does TARDIS stand for?", and it spits out Time And Relative Dimensions In Space. Therefore, it MUST be 100% accurate in calling him 'Doctor Who'... ...don't worry, I think it's a bit disappointing too
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2017 22:30:16 GMT
I count The War Machines as canon, but think it's disappointing that they assumed the Doctor's name was 'Doctor Who' when the whole point of the title of the show is that it's asking who 'The Doctor' is. 'Doctor Who' is just too cheesy to be taken seriously as a name The Doctor would go by. My head canon is that WOTAN's programming was faulty, heard someone ask 'Doctor who'? and assumed that was The Doctor's name. Except, as an 'integral' part of the story (I say that, but it isn't really), it is clearly stated (and proven) that WOTAN has never made a mistake - it even accurately answers the question Dodo poses it: "What does TARDIS stand for?", and it spits out Time And Relative Dimensions In Space. Therefore, it MUST be 100% accurate in calling him 'Doctor Who'... ...don't worry, I think it's a bit disappointing too With my Doctor Who pedantic trousers on, I'd question whether it's 'Dimensions' or 'Dimension!'
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Apr 27, 2017 23:07:03 GMT
Simply put, WOTAN. Does. Not. Speak. Whole. Sentences. Who does WOTAN need? (It is the) Doctor who is required.
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Post by Whovitt on Apr 28, 2017 0:51:46 GMT
Simply put, WOTAN. Does. Not. Speak. Whole. Sentences. Who does WOTAN need? (It is the) Doctor who is required. Unfortunately that doesn't work either, because Professor Bret says at some other point in the story (Episode 2, I believe - I watched it a couple of days ago): "Doctor Who is required. He must be brought to WOTAN," or something along those lines; the important part is that he definitely calls him 'Doctor Who'. I think the more important question is this: Why did WOTAN need the Doctor in the first place? It's not like it wasn't completing its plan without him. Sure, it would have actually succeeded if the Doctor had been on its side and not preventing the take-over, but surely, then, it would have been more efficient to just kill him?
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Apr 28, 2017 0:55:52 GMT
Simple, WOTAN is the Great Intelligence and still has its obsession with the Doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2017 1:31:41 GMT
I think the more important question is this: Why did WOTAN need the Doctor in the first place? It's not like it wasn't completing its plan without him. Sure, it would have actually succeeded if the Doctor had been on its side and not preventing the take-over, but surely, then, it would have been more efficient to just kill him? The Doctor is a rogue intelligence whose mental patterns do not conform to that of his peers. WOTAN itself must be telepathic because it is able to decipher the meaning of the acronym "TARDIS" when Dodo asks it. In fact, moments after that Dodo enters a daze, probably because it's rifling through her memories searching for further information in regards to this alien intruder to Earth. If it's planning to set up a government by automation such information would be invaluable to defending its new population from aggressive uprisings on terra or invasion attempts from space. If you want to go far down the rabbit hole, there's even a theory running around that WOTAN was paving the way for an entirely different alien force -- the creatures from Mondas.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 28, 2017 8:56:37 GMT
I count The War Machines as canon, but think it's disappointing that they assumed the Doctor's name was 'Doctor Who' when the whole point of the title of the show is that it's asking who 'The Doctor' is. 'Doctor Who' is just too cheesy to be taken seriously as a name The Doctor would go by. My head canon is that WOTAN's programming was faulty, heard someone ask 'Doctor who'? and assumed that was The Doctor's name. Except, as an 'integral' part of the story (I say that, but it isn't really), it is clearly stated (and proven) that WOTAN has never made a mistake - it even accurately answers the question Dodo poses it: "What does TARDIS stand for?", and it spits out Time And Relative Dimensions In Space. Therefore, it MUST be 100% accurate in calling him 'Doctor Who'... ...don't worry, I think it's a bit disappointing too But that doesn't mean it hasn't made one without anyone noticing.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Apr 28, 2017 8:59:02 GMT
Simply put, WOTAN. Does. Not. Speak. Whole. Sentences. Who does WOTAN need? (It is the) Doctor who is required. Unfortunately that doesn't work either, because Professor Bret says at some other point in the story (Episode 2, I believe - I watched it a couple of days ago): "Doctor Who is required. He must be brought to WOTAN," or something along those lines; the important part is that he definitely calls him 'Doctor Who'. I think the more important question is this: Why did WOTAN need the Doctor in the first place? It's not like it wasn't completing its plan without him. Sure, it would have actually succeeded if the Doctor had been on its side and not preventing the take-over, but surely, then, it would have been more efficient to just kill him? Professor Bret had just seen Dr Who And The Daleks at the cinema and had 'Doctor Who' on his brain. He mistakenly called The Doctor by the movie 'Doctor Who'.
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Apr 28, 2017 9:16:33 GMT
Simply put, WOTAN. Does. Not. Speak. Whole. Sentences. Who does WOTAN need? (It is the) Doctor who is required. Unfortunately that doesn't work either, because Professor Bret says at some other point in the story (Episode 2, I believe - I watched it a couple of days ago): "Doctor Who is required. He must be brought to WOTAN," or something along those lines; the important part is that he definitely calls him 'Doctor Who'. I think the more important question is this: Why did WOTAN need the Doctor in the first place? It's not like it wasn't completing its plan without him. Sure, it would have actually succeeded if the Doctor had been on its side and not preventing the take-over, but surely, then, it would have been more efficient to just kill him? Um... ok... try this...
WOTAN can't establish a surname but knows people have them so as an automatic process substitutes the placeholder word "Who" in.
Professor Brett - as established in the story - has no free will when under WOTAN's control. So he uses the words WOTAN is supplying him and so he says the same thing.
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