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Post by kimalysong on Jun 25, 2017 10:17:18 GMT
I shouldn't be in this thread because I haven't watched the episode yet but I'm spoiled anyways.
With the Bill thing Moffat has definitely backed himself into a corner it's a damned if he does damned if he doesn't type of thing. I get that a lot of people don't want a reset because it cheapens the drama. But just as many fans are upset that this is the ending for a gay POC companion. It's not a popular trope.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 10:27:35 GMT
I shouldn't be in this thread because I haven't watched the episode yet but I'm spoiled anyways. With the Bill thing Moffat has definitely backed himself into a corner it's a damned if he does damned if he doesn't type of thing. I get that a lot of people don't want a reset because it cheapens the drama. But just as many fans are upset that this is the ending for a gay POC companion. It's not a popular trope. I must admit I haven't seen a single person on my social media feeds - which are pretty much exclusively UK folks so perhaps quite different to the ones you see- say anything about Bill's skin or sexuality influencing whether they want her to get saved or not. Only that they thing it would be too much for younger viewers. I'd be more upset if there was some unwritten rule that being in a minority meant you were guaranteed an out at the end.
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Post by kimalysong on Jun 25, 2017 10:32:39 GMT
I shouldn't be in this thread because I haven't watched the episode yet but I'm spoiled anyways. With the Bill thing Moffat has definitely backed himself into a corner it's a damned if he does damned if he doesn't type of thing. I get that a lot of people don't want a reset because it cheapens the drama. But just as many fans are upset that this is the ending for a gay POC companion. It's not a popular trope. I must admit I haven't seen a single person on my social media feeds - which are pretty much exclusively UK folks so perhaps quite different to the ones you see- say anything about Bill's skin or sexuality influencing whether they want her to get saved or not. Only that they thing it would be too much for younger viewers. I'd be more upset if there was some unwritten rule that being in a minority meant you were guaranteed an out at the end. I don't think it's about a guaranteed out. It's the fact that these characters always get the short end of the stick. And ppl will see it this way when Amy & Clara didn't have to die. Besides Its not just dying either but dying in an absolutely horrible way (albeit in a way that's iconic to Doctor Who)
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Post by mark687 on Jun 25, 2017 10:37:19 GMT
Surely just because she's a Lesbian and a POC doesn't make her fate anymore shocking?
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 10:42:24 GMT
I must admit I haven't seen a single person on my social media feeds - which are pretty much exclusively UK folks so perhaps quite different to the ones you see- say anything about Bill's skin or sexuality influencing whether they want her to get saved or not. Only that they thing it would be too much for younger viewers. I'd be more upset if there was some unwritten rule that being in a minority meant you were guaranteed an out at the end. I don't think it's about a guaranteed out. It's the fact that these characters always get the short end of the stick. And ppl will see it this way when Amy & Clara didn't have to die. Besides Its not just dying either but dying in an absolutely horrible way. I'd advise them to wait and see before taking too much umbrage. Amy died - we saw her grave. Sure she didn't die young in agony but she was killed off regardless. Clara died rather horribly too which, again, we saw in detail. She's not been saved, only pardoned for the moment. You did say a "lot of fans" but I - genuinely - haven't seen it mentioned anywhere but that one tweet. Not here, not even GB where molehills go to become mountains.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 10:46:11 GMT
Surely just because she's a Lesbian and a POC doesn't make her fate anymore shocking? Regards mark687 No, and I'm sure even that Twitter user wouldn't say that. I'd certainly call it out if I thought there was any sort of agenda but, no. This is a Doctor Who companion finding out that being just that isn't always a terribly safe occupation for anybody. If Moffat had this idea in mind then didn't use it because of the actresses colour or sexuality, I'd be disappointed. The play's the thing.
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Post by kimalysong on Jun 25, 2017 10:48:49 GMT
Well David as you said it could be the people you follow. Anyways if you open the tweet there are also some comments agreeing with her. But I mainly linked to her tweet because she is well known (at least in US fandom).
I realize the episode isn't over yet but that is why I said damned if he does damned if he doesn't. There are going to be fans upset either way. But I suppose isn't that always the case.
And note I am not weighing in either way without seeing the episode. Actually I am not sure what I would want to happen in the next episode.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 25, 2017 10:54:54 GMT
Hello again. Um...is it safe to come out from behind the sofa now? No. I hAve AlSo beEn ConVerTed inTo a MondasIan CyberMan.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 25, 2017 10:55:57 GMT
I shouldn't be in this thread because I haven't watched the episode yet but I'm spoiled anyways. With the Bill thing Moffat has definitely backed himself into a corner it's a damned if he does damned if he doesn't type of thing. I get that a lot of people don't want a reset because it cheapens the drama. But just as many fans are upset that this is the ending for a gay POC companion. It's not a popular trope. Sexuality shouldn't determine a character's fate. If Bill doesn't stay as a Mondasian Cyberman it will be a massive cop-out.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 25, 2017 10:57:01 GMT
I must admit I haven't seen a single person on my social media feeds - which are pretty much exclusively UK folks so perhaps quite different to the ones you see- say anything about Bill's skin or sexuality influencing whether they want her to get saved or not. Only that they thing it would be too much for younger viewers. I'd be more upset if there was some unwritten rule that being in a minority meant you were guaranteed an out at the end. I don't think it's about a guaranteed out. It's the fact that these characters always get the short end of the stick. And ppl will see it this way when Amy & Clara didn't have to die. Besides Its not just dying either but dying in an absolutely horrible way (albeit in a way that's iconic to Doctor Who) Amy and Clara DID die.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 10:59:48 GMT
Well, that was pretty solid. Got beaten about the head and shoulders quite a bit with the explanation (which could have been done in about four lines) and the Moffatish metahumour at the start (*sigh*), but there's a lot in this episode to recommend it. Nice build up, probably the strongest production values we've seen in ages and some very inventive use of the Cybermen as an object of fear rather than your garden variety footsoldier. The disguise was surprisingly effective too. He was so much of a dead ringer for Babylon 5's Zathras that the whole family got it in one. In unison. Genesis of the Cybermen though? Nah. There's a reason why we remember Spare Parts over The World-Shapers and other stories that have attempted to do their birth. This is likely one of their expeditionary forces that went out to explore the universe, find places like Telos and colonise them. This is a very important point - a lot of younger viewers (still) watch Doctor Who, and Bill's 'death' would be a lot for them. It would be very brave to have her as a Cyberman permanently, but I personally don't think that will happen ... ... which may well open the door for people to say that Moffat has again pressed the reset switch. I've never understood why people blame Moffat for that, as if it has never been done before. He didn't press the reset switch with Amy or Rory's fate, or Danny Pink. I'm remembering Peri's fate at the hands of Ycarnos, Romana 2 apparently been buried in the Movellan grave; the companion certain the Doctor had died only for him to actually still be alive happened on a regular basis during the classic era. Surely it's a standard rule of drama that the audience is supposed to believe their heroes are slain, only for them to emerge unscathed afterall. To blame Steven Moffat for that is ... interesting! True, but there's a difference between having a fakeout contained within the framework of a single story ( The Time Monster) and doubling back after the fact ( Face the Raven / Hell Bent). Can blame be given on the Moffat era for the creation of the reset button? Nah, not by a long chalk. Can it be blamed for the short and repeated succession of reset buttons? Looking at his tenure as a whole, I think that's a fair criticism. This is a tenure whose first major story arc was erasing the RTD era from existence and to be honest, I really hated that bait-and-switch with Peri at the time as well. It was a really bad decision and even years later the pieces are still being picked up. They've boxed themselves in politically, but honestly, I hope they stick to their guns and keep Bill as a Cyberman. Sara Kingdom's death doesn't diminish the appeal of her character in any way, shape or form. If anything, her death lent the character a greater gravitas than might have been given otherwise. And I say that as a listener who is very fond of Sara and would like to see more of her time aboard the TARDIS. Hell, I'm very fond of Bill too.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 11:02:33 GMT
I don't think it's about a guaranteed out. It's the fact that these characters always get the short end of the stick. And ppl will see it this way when Amy & Clara didn't have to die. Besides Its not just dying either but dying in an absolutely horrible way (albeit in a way that's iconic to Doctor Who) Amy and Clara DID die. I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased).
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Post by omega on Jun 25, 2017 11:05:27 GMT
I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased). Supernatural is a great example, or Vampire Diaries. The main characters always come back, so being in a situation where they die is robbed of any tension.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 11:10:27 GMT
I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased). Amy seemed pretty dead in that grave! And Clara's Category 1 to quote Miracle Day. I've never once thought that Who's raison d'etre was even slightly to depict "the horror and tragedy of death" FWIW. We do see plenty of death, pain and suffering in the show, albeit from one-off characters but I don't see this line of argument in other fandoms to this extent. I don't remember anyone wanting Will Riker to die on Next Gen just to show how awful death is. Or advocate that Luke Skywalker should be killed off to depict the finality of real life...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 11:16:16 GMT
Genesis of the Cybermen though? Nah. There's a reason why we remember Spare Parts over The World-Shapers and other stories that have attempted to do their birth. This is likely one of their expeditionary forces that went out to explore the universe, find places like Telos and colonise them. Well, we remembr Spare Parts but that one ep reached more people within an hour than any BF story ever has or will. Whatever anyone thinks of events on TV, they're always going to be the ones that define a story both "canon-wise" but most importantly pop culture wise.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 11:16:54 GMT
I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased). Supernatural is a great example, or Vampire Diaries. The main characters always come back, so being in a situation where they die is robbed of any tension. Exactly. Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons is an example I bring up quite often when talking about immortal heroes because it does it beautifully. It knows what's most important. The stakes are not on whether Scarlet lives or dies, it's about the innocent and mortal lives around him that are ruined by the Mysterons in their retribution against humanity. The people who are killed to be replaced and work against their friends, colleagues, even families. Bluntly, the audience doesn't care about invulnerable protagonists, but it does care about those who can be wounded or even killed. Even the Doctor if hurt badly enough is lost to us because he's replaced by a stranger. There are lasting consequences. Amy Pond being condemned to live out the rest of her life with her husband growing old together... is not a terrible fate. Clara Oswald roaming around the universe as an immortal being in a TARDIS... is not a shocking twist. The end of Remembrance of the Daleks shows it best. You fight, struggle, people die before their time and when all is said and done -- you attend their funeral, they go into the ground and they are gone. Forever. That is so much more powerful. I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased). Amy seemed pretty dead in that grave! And Clara's Category 1 to quote Miracle Day. I've never once thought that Who's raison d'etre was even slightly to depict "the horror and tragedy of death" FWIW. We do see plenty of death, pain and suffering in the show, albeit from one-off characters but I don't see this line of argument in other fandoms to this extent. I don't remember anyone wanting Will Riker to die on Next Gen just to show how awful death is. Or advocate that Luke Skywalker should be killed off to depict the finality of real life... No, but they did kill Chewbacca, didn't they? He died saving Han's son, from memory. And Tasha Yar left a very permanent mark on the crew of the Enterprise with her (as Guinan put it) "very empty" death.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 11:22:29 GMT
Yes, but my point is there aren't legions of fans calling for those deaths just so we can have landmark deaths. No-one was saying Chewie had to die to depict the harshness of the universe...
This is a peculiarly Doctor Who thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 11:30:56 GMT
Yes, but my point is there aren't legions of fans calling for those deaths just so we can have landmark deaths. No-one was saying Chewie had to die to depict the harshness of the universe... This is a peculiarly Doctor Who thing. Yeah... But to be fair, I don't think Doctor Who has ever had to worry about whether Janeway was a bad captain or if the Force is purely mystical energy field or the product of cellular organisms. Each fandom has its own quirks. Besides, it's not as if it's a cry for a Sawardian massacre of almost every person in the cast.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 25, 2017 11:42:54 GMT
I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased). They did stay dead! Amy is still dead. She and Rory both died of old age. Clara is still dead. She was extracted from her moment of death, but she still has to return to it and therefore is still dead.
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Post by omega on Jun 25, 2017 11:55:41 GMT
I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased). They did stay dead! Amy is still dead. She and Rory both died of old age. Clara is still dead. She was extracted from her moment of death, but she still has to return to it and therefore is still dead. And the Donna that traveled with the Doctor can't come back or else the current Donna's mind will burn out. Rose isn't coming back from Pete's World. At least Martha got to keep her mind, stay in her own universe and got a husband out of traveling with the Doctor.
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