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Post by kimalysong on Jun 25, 2017 11:57:46 GMT
I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased). They did stay dead! Amy is still dead. She and Rory both died of old age. Clara is still dead. She was extracted from her moment of death, but she still has to return to it and therefore is still dead. Those aren't character deaths and no one would see them that way. Everyone dies of old age. Amy & Rory still got to live their whole lives. Clara gets to go on new adventures. If (and it's still a big if ) this is the end for Bill she not just dies but does so in a very horrible way. And yes death often is horrible but I can also see where people would say if this is Bill's ultimate fate she very much got the short end of the deal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 12:02:04 GMT
I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased). They did stay dead! Amy is still dead. She and Rory both died of old age. Clara is still dead. She was extracted from her moment of death, but she still has to return to it and therefore is still dead. Amy wasn't killed off though. Yes she is dead. So are Vickie and Jamie but you can't say they were killed off. They just lived their lives in the past. The only difference is the Doctor didn't find their graves in the future and mope over them as if he'd forgotten what time travel meant.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 25, 2017 12:03:42 GMT
They did stay dead! Amy is still dead. She and Rory both died of old age. Clara is still dead. She was extracted from her moment of death, but she still has to return to it and therefore is still dead. Those aren't character deaths and no one would see them that way. Everyone dies of old age. Amy & Rory still got to live their whole lives. Clara gets to go on new adventures. If (and it's still a big if ) this is the end for Bill she not just dies but does so in a very horrible way. And yes death often is horrible but I can also see where people would say if this is Bill's ultimate fate she very much got the short end of the deal. How are they not character deaths? Amy and Rory are killed by a Weeping Angel by being sent to the past and dying in their present as an elderly couple. Clara is killed by the Quantum Shade after saving Rigsy by agreeing to take the tattoo from him. Just because they have long lives before their deaths doesn't mean they don't count. Clara still has to return to her death.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 25, 2017 12:04:27 GMT
They did stay dead! Amy is still dead. She and Rory both died of old age. Clara is still dead. She was extracted from her moment of death, but she still has to return to it and therefore is still dead. Amy wasn't killed off though. Yes she is dead. So are Vickie and Jamie but you can't say they were killed off. They just lived their lives in the past. The only difference is the Doctor didn't find their graves in the future and mope over them as if he'd forgotten what time travel meant. Amy was killed off. She was killed by a Weeping Angel sending her back in time to join her husband in the past.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 12:06:20 GMT
They did stay dead! Amy is still dead. She and Rory both died of old age. Clara is still dead. She was extracted from her moment of death, but she still has to return to it and therefore is still dead. Amy wasn't killed off though. Yes she is dead. So are Vickie and Jamie but you can't say they were killed off. They just lived their lives in the past. The only difference is the Doctor didn't find their graves in the future and mope over them as if he'd forgotten what time travel meant. Be fair - he was standing talking to them one moment then leaning over their graves the next. I'm sure that's odd even for a time traveller!
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Post by kimalysong on Jun 25, 2017 12:10:11 GMT
Those aren't character deaths and no one would see them that way. Everyone dies of old age. Amy & Rory still got to live their whole lives. Clara gets to go on new adventures. If (and it's still a big if ) this is the end for Bill she not just dies but does so in a very horrible way. And yes death often is horrible but I can also see where people would say if this is Bill's ultimate fate she very much got the short end of the deal. How are they not character deaths? Amy and Rory are killed by a Weeping Angel by being sent to the past and dying in their present as an elderly couple. Clara is killed by the Quantum Shade after saving Rigsy by agreeing to take the tattoo from him. Just because they have long lives before their deaths doesn't mean they don't count. Clara still has to return to her death. Dalekbuster I think you are missing the point of what counts as a character death. These characters get to live their lives, they get to have more adventures. There is nothing sad about their fate even if we know there is an ending to it. We are all going to die. So knowing that Amy & Rory died of old age is not a character death. And it's also not a character death to know that Clara has to eventually return to her death when she can still experience life. The only thing Clara, Amy, Rory really lost was not their lives but their time with the Doctor (but they still have the memory of that). And okay Amy & Rory lost the time they lived in but they still have each other. Neither of those are sad or tragic endings. There may be some bitter sweetness to them (especially in the sense that the Doctor loses them). But it's not as sad and horrible as Bill being turned into a Cyberman where she essentially is dead and loses everything that she was. Do you really not see the difference?
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Post by omega on Jun 25, 2017 12:13:33 GMT
How are they not character deaths? Amy and Rory are killed by a Weeping Angel by being sent to the past and dying in their present as an elderly couple. Clara is killed by the Quantum Shade after saving Rigsy by agreeing to take the tattoo from him. Just because they have long lives before their deaths doesn't mean they don't count. Clara still has to return to her death. Dalekbuster I think you are missing the point of what counts as a character death. These characters get to live their lives, they get to have more adventures. There is nothing sad about their fate even if we know there is an ending to it. We are all going to die. So knowing that Amy & Rory died of old age is not a character death. And it's also not a character death to know that Clara has to eventually return to her death when she can still experience life. The only thing Clara, Amy, Rory really lost was not their lives but their time with the Doctor (but they still have the memory of that). And okay Amy & Rory lost the time they lived in but they still have each other. Neither of those are sad or tragic endings. There may be some bitter sweetness to them. But it's not as sad and horrible as Bill being turned into a Cybermen where she essentially is dead and loses everything that she was. Do you really not see the difference? There's a DWM comic strip, Imaginary Enemies, that features a young Amy, Rory and Mels. The final page is a collage of photos of Amy and Rory's life after Angels Take Manhattan. They even raise a son, who visits Brian in the PS short.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 12:14:17 GMT
I think the clincher here is that neither of them stayed dead. The horror and tragedy of death is robbed of meaning when you take away its finality. Then the show becomes Randall and Hopkirk (Deceased). They did stay dead! Amy is still dead. She and Rory both died of old age. Clara is still dead. She was extracted from her moment of death, but she still has to return to it and therefore is still dead. Yes, but you can see the potential hurdle here, right? The difference between Alistair (who died in bed) and Katarina (who died in the vacuum of space)? The circumstances matter. Not every companion needs to meet a violent and unnatural end, but in Bill's case, it would likely be a real dramatic fumble if she ended up okay. Plus, we've already seen the Cyberman who regains their humanity. Not only is it one of Who's poorer cliches, it doesn't get better with repetition either and we've seen it twice already in the Moffat era ( Closing Time and Death in Heaven). I think Real Time is one of the very few stories that subverted it by having it be a ploy on the part of the Cyberman.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 25, 2017 12:21:28 GMT
How are they not character deaths? Amy and Rory are killed by a Weeping Angel by being sent to the past and dying in their present as an elderly couple. Clara is killed by the Quantum Shade after saving Rigsy by agreeing to take the tattoo from him. Just because they have long lives before their deaths doesn't mean they don't count. Clara still has to return to her death. Dalekbuster I think you are missing the point of what counts as a character death. These characters get to live their lives, they get to have more adventures. There is nothing sad about their fate even if we know there is an ending to it. We are all going to die. So knowing that Amy & Rory died of old age is not a character death. And it's also not a character death to know that Clara has to eventually return to her death when she can still experience life. The only thing Clara, Amy, Rory really lost was not their lives but their time with the Doctor (but they still have the memory of that). And okay Amy & Rory lost the time they lived in but they still have each other. Neither of those are sad or tragic endings. There may be some bitter sweetness to them (especially in the sense that the Doctor loses them). But it's not as sad and horrible as Bill being turned into a Cybermen where she essentially is dead and loses everything that she was. Do you really not see the difference? I don't see the difference at all. The characters were still killed off, therefore it is a character death. When Jack Duckworth died in Coronation Street did that not count as a character death because he died of old age? Of course it did, and the same is true here. Clara died. Amy died. There's no reason to make it sound overly complicated by saying they didn't die because Amy and Rory still loved long lives, or Clara's doesn't count because She still gets to have loads of adventures before she dies.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 25, 2017 12:24:53 GMT
They did stay dead! Amy is still dead. She and Rory both died of old age. Clara is still dead. She was extracted from her moment of death, but she still has to return to it and therefore is still dead. Yes, but you can see the potential hurdle here, right? The difference between Alistair (who died in bed) and Katarina (who died in the vacuum of space)? The circumstances matter. Not every companion needs to meet a violent and unnatural end, but in Bill's case, it would likely be a real dramatic fumble if she ended up okay. We've already seen the Cyberman who regains their humanity. Not only is it one of Who's poorer cliches, it doesn't get better with repetition either and we've seen it twice already in the Moffat era ( Closing Time and Death in Heaven). I think Real Time is one of the very few stories that subverted it by having it be a ploy on the part of the Cyberman. Nope. Any death is a character death if that death still remains as it does with Amy, Rory and Clara.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jun 25, 2017 12:26:30 GMT
Surely just because she's a Lesbian and a POC doesn't make her fate anymore shocking? Regards mark687 Companion. She is nothing more or less than a companion. Cyber conversion... Cybersocks. Not nice.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 12:27:22 GMT
Nope. Any death is a character death if that death still remains as it does with Amy, Rory and Clara. Oh, god... I feel a discussion about the sobering nature of the human condition coming on...
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jun 25, 2017 12:27:58 GMT
And I'm guessing John Simm must be a Babylon 5 fan because he was totally playing Zathras when he was in "disguise". There were almost times when I thought it was the same actor I thought it was just me.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jun 25, 2017 12:31:08 GMT
I suspect it's another regeneration fake out.
He is pumping all of the enervy into the winter zone on the giant ship. To help it escape the blavk hole.
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Post by kimalysong on Jun 25, 2017 12:41:43 GMT
Nope. Any death is a character death if that death still remains as it does with Amy, Rory and Clara. Oh, god... I feel a discussion about the sobering nature of the human condition coming on... So I guess only characters that are immortal wouldn't count as character deaths!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 12:46:09 GMT
Will the Doctor give his life to save Bill? Will Nardole disassemble himself to save Bill? Will Bill's Mum save everyone again? These are all questions I want answered.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 12:54:29 GMT
Mmmm, well the death's of Amy, Rory & Clara are not dramatic deaths are they. They are off screen deaths & don't have the shock or immediate impact of a companion dying straight away. Pretty obvious therefore that there is a difference, even if it is just in dramatic narrative terms.
Anyway, as this is also going to be the last appearance of Missy will we see her regenerating? That would be interesting.
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Post by number13 on Jun 25, 2017 12:57:07 GMT
I know that was a great episode: -Bill. What a fabulous performance from Pearl Mackie; whatever the guest stars and the Doctor, this was her episode in a heart-rending storyline... -Missy having fun at the start of the story. 'These are my disposables - Exposition and Comic-Relief' And not 'bananas', but simply and obviously enjoying herself. However, the 'Doctor Who' wind-up was overdone and became annoying because it was clearly aimed at us, not Bill. Irritating to loyal fans, to Bill (who has never heard the phrase before) it would have just sounded silly and irrelevant. -The Setting. The black hole, time dilation working differently across the vast ship. (The ship would have been torn apart by tidal stresses but I'm happy to ignore that because the ship/time idea is so good! ) -Mondas and the Mondasian Cybermen. They are the most disgustingly realistic of all, half-living, half-dead, botched and almost credible medical nightmares. 'Doctor Who' at its most horrific - and brilliiant. -The Filming and Direction. Really excellent, atmospheric and very, very creepy. (And they broadcast this at 6.45 pm? Cyber-nerves of steel!) -The Master up to one of his oldest tricks. A classic-series fan's delight, this time disguised as (I thought) the extra-large Dwarf that didn't quite make it into LOTR. -The regeneration in the snow. An electrifying hint of things to come. South Pole, 'Tenth Planet'? Perhaps the rumours are true and the First Doctor will make an appearance, amazing if so. However (oh dear, that is such an ominous word and I know it was a great episode but...) I had the strange experience of watching an episode full of emotional intensity, but one where the central themes left me unmoved. I loathed the ending of last season and I like it even less in hindsight because for me it pulled the emotional heart out of this episode, which should have been draining. The Companion completely and irreversibly dies one week, the Doctor saves the Companion the next week. Either way, the ghost of Clara's ressurection haunts this story for me. If Bill is reconverted to human, then all Cybermen could be, their horror is diminished and yet another dead companion is back. Fool me once... But if she is NOT saved, then wow!but - the expectation that she will be saved has robbed the situation of its emotional build-up, for me at least. If bringing Clara back had never happened - and if John Simm's Master, Mondas and the Mondasian Cybermen had been total surprises - then how utterly incredible would last night's episode have been... And it's still more complicated by the simple fact that I don't want Bill to go - she (and Comic-Relief - I mean Nardole ) are great companions. But then, I don't want to lose Peter Capaldi's Doctor either... (Final gripe: the 'Doctor's gender' nonsense in the conversation about the time the Doctor and the Master were friends at the Academy. Maybe the Doctor does become female in the future, but about the past there is no doubt; the First Doctor described himself as 'The Original'. And Mr. Hartnell was a bloke!)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 13:09:45 GMT
When it was announced the Mondasians were coming back, some people seemed worried they wouldn't be effective in this age of stomping streamlined silver soldiers. It's wonderful to read how the originals are - once again - being held as a force to be reckoned with.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2017 13:27:45 GMT
Oh, god... I feel a discussion about the sobering nature of the human condition coming on... So I guess only characters that are immortal wouldn't count as character deaths! Who on Gallifrey does that leave? Tough when even the apparently immortal Jack Harkness eventually passed away. Harder still when you get to characters who may not have been "alive" as we understand it in the first place. Rassilon...? The Great Intelligence...?
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