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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jul 10, 2018 10:56:23 GMT
Thank god these idiot's weren't in charge during WW II, I'd have more confidence if Froshiber the big talking bird was PM. All politicians do is act like naughty schoolchildren jeering & shouting while the back benchers just show up for there afternoon nap. ALL HAIL THE BIG TALKING BIRD! |
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Post by jasonward on Jul 10, 2018 17:47:22 GMT
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 10, 2018 20:02:32 GMT
Thank god these idiot's weren't in charge during WW II, I'd have more confidence if Froshiber the big talking bird was PM. All politicians do is act like naughty schoolchildren jeering & shouting while the back benchers just show up for there afternoon nap. lol, that's a very rose tinted view of WWII politicians, regardless of anything else, they behaved pretty much the same back then as they do now, be aware that Churchill became prime minister as a rank outsider, disliked by many on all sides, was regarded by many as a buffoon and during the course of the war, came close on more than one occasion to loosing votes of confidence. The churchill comparison is apt but i suspect with this,resignation Boris is more Lord Randolph than Winston. |
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Post by jasonward on Jul 14, 2018 23:27:13 GMT
So a thought struck in me in the last few days.
The Brexiteers speak of the betrayal of democracy and under mining the faith of the people if we don't basically hard brexit.
But hold on a minute.
Surely that's the wrong way around? Sure the vote was for Brexit, but regardless of the views of any Brexiteer, what about the other 48% who wanted to remain?
Surely, if you are to honour democracy, the referendum, yes, your going to Brexit, but given the near even split of views the way to betray as few as possible is to have as close a relationship with Europe as possible whilst still exiting?
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Post by Timelord007 on Jul 15, 2018 6:53:49 GMT
Just let President Trump sort out Brexit they'll be very quick negotiations lol.
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Post by number13 on Jul 15, 2018 11:00:18 GMT
So a thought struck in me in the last few days. The Brexiteers speak of the betrayal of democracy and under mining the faith of the people if we don't basically hard brexit. But hold on a minute. Surely that's the wrong way around? Sure the vote was for Brexit, but regardless of the views of any Brexiteer, what about the other 48% who wanted to remain? Surely, if you are to honour democracy, the referendum, yes, your going to Brexit, but given the near even split of views the way to betray as few as possible is to have as close a relationship with Europe as possible whilst still exiting? I voted Remain but if I can play Devil's Advocate for a minute... What if the result had gone the way I expected - narrowly for Remain? Would we now be arguing that we should honour that result by remaining in the EU but losing some of the things which annoy Leavers most - like free movement? I don't think we would, it would be: Remain won, business as usual.
As things stand, we're going to be Out, so I personally was pleased by the Chequers agreement / compromise / fudge. However I wonder if it will get approval from Brussels - to me it looks a lot like 'cherry-picking' or 'having your cake and eating it'.
I'm a strong believer in free trade as a beneficial force, so the ability for the UK to make our own deals with third countries while keeping the benefits of the EU single market in goods would seem ideal - too good for Brussels to agree perhaps? I also believe that free movement - both ways- within the EU is beneficial, but I think it was the single key factor which tipped the vote to Leave, so if it can be 'ended' and replaced by a new agreed system which people feel we do have control over, that would hopefully satisfy most Leave voters. (Not the diehards, but they aren't 52%) But again, will the EU agree?
The PM's winning argument might just be: It's taken two years, endless rows and now two Cabinet resignations to get to this proposal. Don't try to water it down, EU, or we might leave with no deal.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 11:53:10 GMT
So "sue the EU" was Trump's response. What a loathsome man.
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Post by jasonward on Jul 15, 2018 16:09:15 GMT
So a thought struck in me in the last few days. The Brexiteers speak of the betrayal of democracy and under mining the faith of the people if we don't basically hard brexit. But hold on a minute. Surely that's the wrong way around? Sure the vote was for Brexit, but regardless of the views of any Brexiteer, what about the other 48% who wanted to remain? Surely, if you are to honour democracy, the referendum, yes, your going to Brexit, but given the near even split of views the way to betray as few as possible is to have as close a relationship with Europe as possible whilst still exiting? I voted Remain but if I can play Devil's Advocate for a minute... What if the result had gone the way I expected - narrowly for Remain? Would we now be arguing that we should honour that result by remaining in the EU but losing some of the things which annoy Leavers most - like free movement? I don't think we would, it would be: Remain won, business as usual. You are I believe correct, however, my point was about the mantras "betrayal of democracy" and "under mining the faith of the people". If Brexiteers want to have a hard Brexit, they can made the case for such, but if your making your case likening anything other than a hard brexit as "betrayal of democracy" then we need to look at what the democratic will of the people actually was/is.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 16, 2018 8:11:29 GMT
I voted Remain but if I can play Devil's Advocate for a minute... What if the result had gone the way I expected - narrowly for Remain? Would we now be arguing that we should honour that result by remaining in the EU but losing some of the things which annoy Leavers most - like free movement? I don't think we would, it would be: Remain won, business as usual. You are I believe correct, however, my point was about the mantras "betrayal of democracy" and "under mining the faith of the people". If Brexiteers want to have a hard Brexit, they can made the case for such, but if your making your case likening anything other than a hard brexit as "betrayal of democracy" then we need to look at what the democratic will of the people actually was/is.
"Democracy", at the risk of stating the obvious, means different things in different contexts. There is the zero sum game "winner takes all" view, which the victorious Brexiteers take of the referendum, and there is the "finding a consensus which as many people as possible can live with" view of what democracy is, which is how the losing Remainers prefer to view the referendum result. People are not really consistent in which they prefer, their preference tends to be based on whether they are on the winning or losing side on any given issue.
number 13 is quite right, had the result gone the other way, none of the Remainers would be saying, for instance, "let's stay in the EU but end freedom of movement and leave the common fisheries policy to reflect the views of the 48% who voted leave."
The fundamental problem is that brexit is an inherently stupid idea that was sold on a false prospectus by a dishonest leave campaign. May is the one with the poisoned chalice of trying to sort it out. I do think we now have the worst of both worlds with her Chequers proposal, but I would still support it as the least harmful brexit we are likely to get. The shortcomings of May's proposal is not an argument for revising her plan, because any alternative will be equally problematical, rather it is an argument for a second referendum. With Justine Greening's intervention I begin to be very cautiously hopeful.
The Eastenders actor who called Cameron a twat was 100% right, but I would add Blair to that list. His decision to bring in PR for European elections in 1999 let UKIP get a foothold and set in motion this whole sorry train of events. It does annoy me that Blair is not getting the criticism/blame he deserves for that pointless decision.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 16, 2018 17:32:19 GMT
So today No10 has accepted amendments proposed by the Brexiteer faction to the Customs Bill. Brexiteers claim this effectively nullifies Chequers deal, No10 claims it doesn't, the 'Naughty Corner' MPs also believe it ruins Chequers so might rebel against it, which could kill the bill completely.
Well so much for clarity on Brexit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 16:21:00 GMT
It's more and more likely there's going to be a 'no deal', isn't it?
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Post by jasonward on Jul 21, 2018 16:34:36 GMT
It's more and more likely there's going to be a 'no deal', isn't it? Part of me says Yes, in so much as, I never thought a proper negotiated exit could be performed in 2 years, even if everyone wanted it, but with no agreement in the UK as to what Brexit even really means I just don't see how we can conclude a deal, I'm still thinking we could "fail" to exit, i.e. no deal and remain. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2018 17:04:25 GMT
It's more and more likely there's going to be a 'no deal', isn't it? Part of me says Yes, in so much as, I never thought a proper negotiated exit could be performed in 2 years, even if everyone wanted it, but with no agreement in the UK as to what Brexit even really means I just don't see how we can conclude a deal, I'm still thinking we could "fail" to exit, i.e. no deal and remain. Maybe she was misquoted, but I'm Theresa May said a few weeks ago that 'no deal = no Brexit.' Did I imagine that, I wonder? |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 22, 2018 16:43:42 GMT
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Post by jasonward on Jul 22, 2018 17:02:19 GMT
Oh the break up of the EU and NATO have been foreign policy goals of Russia since the Soviet days.
What gets me, is if they are successful, and they are being stunningly successful at the moment, whist the US may, at least under Trump align every closer with Russia, Europe,will almost certainly align itself with China, a process that has already to some extent started.
And with China investing mind boggling amounts of money (around 1/3 of the entire worlds GDP) worldwide (i.e. not in their own country) into rail, road and transport infrastructure in a plan called "Belt and Road" that in size, scope, funding dwarfs even the US Marshal plan that economically rebuilt Europe after the second world war, you can expect many countries around the globe to be aligning themselves with China.
At a geopolitical level, sure Brexit and Trump strengthen Russia and weaken NATO and EU, but I suspect the biggest long term winner will be China.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,689
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 26, 2018 10:01:42 GMT
Going back to the original question in this thread, brexit outcome, I think the government will fail to agree with the EU, Parliament will reject a no-deal outcome and due to running out of time and being unable to walk away with no deal we will end with the EU dictating terms to us which a cross-party alliance of ex-remainers will accept. Game set and match to the EU. Likely to be then followed by a general election which labour will win because the tories will have torn themselves apart.
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Post by sherlock on Aug 10, 2018 12:49:32 GMT
Usual poll caveats apply, but still.
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Post by jasonward on Aug 10, 2018 13:36:23 GMT
Usual poll caveats apply, but still. Depressing as it is, I think confidence could fall to single figures and it would make no difference. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 13:50:36 GMT
Going back to the original question in this thread, brexit outcome, I think the government will fail to agree with the EU, Parliament will reject a no-deal outcome and due to running out of time and being unable to walk away with no deal we will end with the EU dictating terms to us which a cross-party alliance of ex-remainers will accept. Game set and match to the EU. Likely to be then followed by a general election which labour will win because the tories will have torn themselves apart. Good. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2018 13:53:32 GMT
Usual poll caveats apply, but still. Just to balance that, a new YouGov poll puts the Conservatives at 39% and Labour at 35%. It seems even with the government in perceived disarray (regarding Brexit), the opposition still doesn't seem a credible alternative ... according to this poll. |
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