lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jan 13, 2020 9:59:12 GMT
I think a national day of celebration only works for something non controversial like a royal wedding or the anniversary of ve day. For something like brexit where there is still a feeling of winners and losers it is hard to see how the winners celebrating their victory will come across as anything other than gloating at the losers' expense. Agree entirely, it would be completely tasteless to celebrate a political event in that way by dressing it in 'national' trappings. Worse than (for example) an incoming Prime Minister filling Downing St. with Union flag-waving supporters to show how much The Nation loved him. Not that anyone would do that in the UK of course, it's just an example.
And of course Davy is right too, Jan 31st should not be a Bank Holiday. Anyway, who would want two Bank Holidays in January of all months?
Two? Or three? Depends where you live in the UK!
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Post by number13 on Jan 13, 2020 10:04:11 GMT
Agree entirely, it would be completely tasteless to celebrate a political event in that way by dressing it in 'national' trappings. Worse than (for example) an incoming Prime Minister filling Downing St. with Union flag-waving supporters to show how much The Nation loved him. Not that anyone would do that in the UK of course, it's just an example.
And of course Davy is right too, Jan 31st should not be a Bank Holiday. Anyway, who would want two Bank Holidays in January of all months?
Two? Or three? Depends where you live in the UK! I did have my tongue just ever-so-slightly in my cheek when I typed that post...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 12:14:32 GMT
I await the "Brexit Day should be a bank holiday" call, another nice bit of Brexit PR. Honestly that festival is my idea of hell. It's going to attract some seriously horrible extreme right Tommy Robinson lovers... I think a national day of celebration only works for something non controversial like a royal wedding or the anniversary of ve day. For something like brexit where there is still a feeling of winners and losers it is hard to see how the winners celebrating their victory will come across as anything other than gloating at the losers' expense. Gloating like throwing a festival and trying to mint Brexit onto the back 50p coins? THey'd never be so crass for things like that would they?
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Post by number13 on Jan 13, 2020 12:46:51 GMT
I think a national day of celebration only works for something non controversial like a royal wedding or the anniversary of ve day. For something like brexit where there is still a feeling of winners and losers it is hard to see how the winners celebrating their victory will come across as anything other than gloating at the losers' expense. Gloating like throwing a festival and trying to mint Brexit onto the back 50p coins? THey'd never be so crass for things like that would they? The 'festival' will not be (as I understand it) a single-place/time event or gloating, but more like a national version of the 'Cities of Culture' - diverse events, varied and distributed across a year and across the location (UK in this case.)
Personally I think it's likely to be a challenge because the 'location' is probably too large for the model; there will be events here and there and no doubt some of the individual art / dance / whatever will be good but trying to make it feel like an overall national cultural 'festival'? Not sure that can be done. On the other hand, I enjoyed a lot of what I saw Hull do (as the most recent example) and I only saw any of it on TV, so perhaps today physical location is less important than content? I think some people may be pre-judging content based on their views on Brexit; I would expect it to be British in the very widest sense, drawn from across four modern nations. (Which in itself will offend some people I guess, but frankly, so what?)
The 50p coin is historical - there was a special 'In' coin (I've got one! Dad collected it all those years ago ) and so now the 'Out' one. Was one event more worth commemorating than the other? That's a very individual viewpoint of course. Anyway, given inflation since we joined (especially during the 70s) that new 50p coin should be a 5p coin to be equivalent!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 12:55:47 GMT
Gloating like throwing a festival and trying to mint Brexit onto the back 50p coins? THey'd never be so crass for things like that would they? The 'festival' will not be (as I understand it) a single-place/time event or gloating, but more like a national version of the 'Cities of Culture' - diverse events, varied and distributed across a year and across the location (UK in this case.)
Personally I think it's likely to be a challenge because the 'location' is probably too large for the model; there will be events here and there and no doubt some of the individual art / dance / whatever will be good but trying to make it feel like an overall national cultural 'festival'? Not sure that can be done. On the other hand, I enjoyed a lot of what I saw Hull do (as the most recent example) and I only saw any of it on TV, so perhaps today physical location is less important than content? I think some people may be pre-judging content based on their views on Brexit; I would expect it to be British in the very widest sense, drawn from across four modern nations. (Which in itself will offend some people I guess, but frankly, so what?)
The 50p coin is historical - there was a special 'In' coin (I've got one! Dad collected it all those years ago ) and so now the 'Out' one. Was one event more worth commemorating than the other? That's a very individual viewpoint of course. Anyway, given inflation since we joined (especially during the 70s) that new 50p coin should be a 5p coin to be equivalent! It's as I said, only going to attract trouble to have ANY events that "celebrate" Brexit - regardless of being in favour or against it, it's going to cause nothing but the kind of trouble you would normally only see from the same people following their football team abroad You'd be better placed to say but was there even a tenth of the acrimony over joining the European Community in the 70s as there was leaving it? Would minting millions of coins for "In" be a true equivalence to the last 4 years of fighting? Feels more like a coin celebrating poll tax would be a more direct comparison! As you say it's subjective but I'm inclined to be with Lidar, gloating isn't going to do anyone any short term favours as nothing has been "won" yet - imagine we had the *ahem* national festival this year then a recession next year when the trickle down really kicks in. "Remember we danced in the streets looking forward to this double dip recession? Wasn't that a lovely day?" But then....I guess the powers that be would know this - may as well celebrate the ideal before reality has a chance of hitting in. Until the "celebrations" are concrete we won't know but everything seems to be on the table including street parties and concerts depending on who is being interviewed or leaking...I'm sure the police for one would rather we did nothing!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 13:00:38 GMT
As the English don't even acknowledge their patron Saint day with a Bank Holiday, having one for Brexit would be fairly odd... and very divisive.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 13:13:26 GMT
As the English don't even acknowledge their patron Saint day with a Bank Holiday, having one for Brexit would be fairly odd... and very divisive. He was a foreigner though - a lot of the worst fringes of Brexiteers wouldn't want St. George in England.
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Post by number13 on Jan 13, 2020 13:22:18 GMT
As the English don't even acknowledge their patron Saint day with a Bank Holiday, having one for Brexit would be fairly odd... and very divisive. Agree, and on a practical level we really don't need another Bank Holiday in the Spring, for any reason. There are four already. But another one or two new BHs during the middle of summer would be very welcome I'm sure (vaguely think something like this was Labour policy at one time.)
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jan 13, 2020 14:21:13 GMT
As the English don't even acknowledge their patron Saint day with a Bank Holiday, having one for Brexit would be fairly odd... and very divisive. Agree, and on a practical level we really don't need another Bank Holiday in the Spring, for any reason. There are four already. But another one or two new BHs during the middle of summer would be very welcome I'm sure (vaguely think something like this was Labour policy at one time.)
Or November 5th for that matter! (And the only reason George is the patron saint was to give the Welsh a good bit of propaganda while they were getting conquered. Before that England was happy with Edward the Confessor.)
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Post by number13 on Jan 13, 2020 14:32:04 GMT
Agree, and on a practical level we really don't need another Bank Holiday in the Spring, for any reason. There are four already. But another one or two new BHs during the middle of summer would be very welcome I'm sure (vaguely think something like this was Labour policy at one time.)
Or November 5th for that matter! (And the only reason George is the patron saint was to give the Welsh a good bit of propaganda while they were getting conquered. Before that England was happy with Edward the Confessor.) No, not November 5th. Some parts of our history are best smoothed over if possible!
I didn't mean a new Brexit-connected BH anyway, just that people could do with a few more statutory days off imo.
(I love the things I learn on this forum! I knew about Edward the Confessor but I'd no idea about St. George and Wales, though I suppose I should have done. Will now be doing a bit of searching.)
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Post by number13 on Jan 13, 2020 14:34:56 GMT
The 'festival' will not be (as I understand it) a single-place/time event or gloating, but more like a national version of the 'Cities of Culture' - diverse events, varied and distributed across a year and across the location (UK in this case.) Personally I think it's likely to be a challenge because the 'location' is probably too large for the model; there will be events here and there and no doubt some of the individual art / dance / whatever will be good but trying to make it feel like an overall national cultural 'festival'? Not sure that can be done. On the other hand, I enjoyed a lot of what I saw Hull do (as the most recent example) and I only saw any of it on TV, so perhaps today physical location is less important than content? I think some people may be pre-judging content based on their views on Brexit; I would expect it to be British in the very widest sense, drawn from across four modern nations. (Which in itself will offend some people I guess, but frankly, so what?)
The 50p coin is historical - there was a special 'In' coin (I've got one! Dad collected it all those years ago ) and so now the 'Out' one. Was one event more worth commemorating than the other? That's a very individual viewpoint of course. Anyway, given inflation since we joined (especially during the 70s) that new 50p coin should be a 5p coin to be equivalent! It's as I said, only going to attract trouble to have ANY events that "celebrate" Brexit - regardless of being in favour or against it, it's going to cause nothing but the kind of trouble you would normally only see from the same people following their football team abroad You'd be better placed to say but was there even a tenth of the acrimony over joining the European Community in the 70s as there was leaving it? Would minting millions of coins for "In" be a true equivalence to the last 4 years of fighting? Feels more like a coin celebrating poll tax would be a more direct comparison! As you say it's subjective but I'm inclined to be with Lidar, gloating isn't going to do anyone any short term favours as nothing has been "won" yet - imagine we had the *ahem* national festival this year then a recession next year when the trickle down really kicks in. "Remember we danced in the streets looking forward to this double dip recession? Wasn't that a lovely day?" But then....I guess the powers that be would know this - may as well celebrate the ideal before reality has a chance of hitting in. I really think you might be misunderstanding what is planned? (Though at present 'planned' would be far too concrete a term as far as I can see.) The Guardian article doesn't imply any celebration of Brexit in any form, unless you call celebrating British culture (and think how wide that is now) a celebration of Brexit. If the proverbial hooligans turn up to a performance of experimental ballet I'll be very surprised. Acrimony in the 70s? Well I was more interested in Tom Baker than politics, being around 11 at the time of the referendum! Not nationally acrimonious I think but it did split the Labour Party, though delayed by a few years. Their Left/Right split had been there since the 50s at least, but the EU argument was the last straw even if Wilson's canny leadership seemed to have papered over the cracks at the time. Frankly, there was so much political acrimony in the 70s that a spot more over joining the EU was small beer. EDIT: Davy, I'm not wanting to personalise this but I'm curious. I believe you support Scottish independence? Fair enough, but can't every argument you've made - acrimony, likely economic damage, potential 'cultural gloating' - be made about that too? I'm not making those arguments (I think I've said before I strongly support the right to national self-determination whether I agree with a particular decision or not) but I'm genuinely puzzled by how those arguments only apply in one case not both? (Please feel extra free to ignore this if you want - it's well off-topic and I have no right to ask anyway. )
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jan 13, 2020 15:13:22 GMT
Or November 5th for that matter! (And the only reason George is the patron saint was to give the Welsh a good bit of propaganda while they were getting conquered. Before that England was happy with Edward the Confessor.) No, not November 5th. Some parts of our history are best smoothed over if possible!
I didn't mean a new Brexit-connected BH anyway, just that people could do with a few more statutory days off imo.
(I love the things I learn on this forum! I knew about Edward the Confessor but I'd no idea about St. George and Wales, though I suppose I should have done. Will now be doing a bit of searching.)
Well, when YOUR saint is conquering a dragon, and the Welsh have their dragon...eh, social media was possibly a bit heavier handed then! Or not!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 15:34:05 GMT
It's as I said, only going to attract trouble to have ANY events that "celebrate" Brexit - regardless of being in favour or against it, it's going to cause nothing but the kind of trouble you would normally only see from the same people following their football team abroad You'd be better placed to say but was there even a tenth of the acrimony over joining the European Community in the 70s as there was leaving it? Would minting millions of coins for "In" be a true equivalence to the last 4 years of fighting? Feels more like a coin celebrating poll tax would be a more direct comparison! As you say it's subjective but I'm inclined to be with Lidar, gloating isn't going to do anyone any short term favours as nothing has been "won" yet - imagine we had the *ahem* national festival this year then a recession next year when the trickle down really kicks in. "Remember we danced in the streets looking forward to this double dip recession? Wasn't that a lovely day?" But then....I guess the powers that be would know this - may as well celebrate the ideal before reality has a chance of hitting in. I really think you might be misunderstanding what is planned? (Though at present 'planned' would be far too concrete a term as far as I can see.) The Guardian article doesn't imply any celebration of Brexit in any form, unless you call celebrating British culture (and think how wide that is now) a celebration of Brexit. If the proverbial hooligans turn up to a performance of experimental ballet I'll be very surprised. Acrimony in the 70s? Well I was more interested in Tom Baker than politics, being around 11 at the time of the referendum! Not nationally acrimonious I think but it did split the Labour Party, though delayed by a few years. Their Left/Right split had been there since the 50s at least, but the EU argument was the last straw even if Wilson's canny leadership seemed to have papered over the cracks at the time. Frankly, there was so much political acrimony in the 70s that a spot more over joining the EU was small beer. EDIT: Davy, I'm not wanting to personalise this but I'm curious. I believe you support Scottish independence? Fair enough, but can't every argument you've made - acrimony, likely economic damage, potential 'cultural gloating' - be made about that too? I'm not making those arguments (I think I've said before I strongly support the right to national self-determination whether I agree with a particular decision or not) but I'm genuinely puzzled by how those arguments only apply in one case not both? (Please feel extra free to ignore this if you want - it's well off-topic and I have no right to ask anyway. ) No, not at all. I don't think it's fair to not answer these type of questions as, frankly, I don't think you get much of a true reflection from the London media who would have you believe that Independence is all that we discuss here despite the Scottish Government doing a lot more than that, from scrapping the bedroom tax, making prescriptions free, removing bridge tolls, keeping university free and many countless other acts that don't get talked about on the likes of LBC or Question Time who really make it seem like every election here is just a referendum on Indy and that we have less real governing than NI in the past few years which couldn't be farther from the truth. But to answer your questions, I'm not debating Brexit to one extent or the other, here, surely? We're surely talking about the fallout, the day-after as it were, the idea of being sore winners, as much as sore losers? Brexit is done and dusted now wheras Scottish Independence is very much not given the consistent results of pro-Indy parties following the Better Together/No campaign saying the only way to safeguard Scotland's place in the EU was voting to stay in the UK....then we get dragged out anyway. I honestly don't think you can simplify the two events as analogous just because they're referendums. The three areas you mention there for example, well, yeah, they apply to both referendums but in different ways and in much more potent or diluted doses. Is Scottish Independence acrimonious? Well, having lived through the Indy 2014 and Brexit refs back to back I swear to you that Brexit's discourse and the way it's encouraged some horrendous people on both sides is a LOT worse than anything in the Independence debate. By far, not even close. There was never a day on the Independence trail on either side as awful as just about everyone on the path to and after June 2016. Brexit was ten times more toxic. As to the economics, the UK Government's (well, former, it was under May) own papers showed there was no form of Brexit, hard soft or customs union that would see the economy better off in the short-medium term. Not one. Wheras the 670 page White Paper published in 2013 showed that there were many opportunities along with the challenges of Independence. Scotland's economy is already bigger than many nations who are doing very nicely indeed. Since then, given Scotland is about to be extremely heavily hit by something it didn't vote for, well, I'd say "An Independent Scotland can apply to the EU" is more than a bit compelling and may indeed get some English migrants wanting to come up here if it comes to pass. As to the cultural gloating, again, I live in Glasgow - we've got Orange Walks followed by Republican demonstrations throughout the city for much of the year. We've been used to seeing tribalism long before the SNP ever won it's first seat much less Scotland got devolution. Culturally there are a lot more people in Glasgow and the west who celebrate Irish arguments more than anything Scottish. Believe me - the cultural gloating is not able to get any worse here!
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Post by number13 on Jan 13, 2020 15:36:08 GMT
No, not November 5th. Some parts of our history are best smoothed over if possible!
I didn't mean a new Brexit-connected BH anyway, just that people could do with a few more statutory days off imo.
(I love the things I learn on this forum! I knew about Edward the Confessor but I'd no idea about St. George and Wales, though I suppose I should have done. Will now be doing a bit of searching.)
Well, when YOUR saint is conquering a dragon, and the Welsh have their dragon...eh, social media was possibly a bit heavier handed then! Or not! Of course; I must be half-asleep today.
Mind you, compared with 'Orphan 55' that's quite subtle propaganda
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jan 14, 2020 14:35:09 GMT
Well, when YOUR saint is conquering a dragon, and the Welsh have their dragon...eh, social media was possibly a bit heavier handed then! Or not! Of course; I must be half-asleep today.
Mind you, compared with 'Orphan 55' that's quite subtle propaganda I'm of the opinion that Orphan 55 is as subtle as it needs to be. This isn't the 70s, I mean Australia is literally on fire, so a gentle nudge is not enough. My own issues with that story are to do with more coherent plot than a message.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jan 14, 2020 22:52:28 GMT
Hello again.
I am very tired. Tired of toxic debates. Tired of spin and false promises. Tired of the tinkering around the fringes when so much major work needs doing and those who have the power to make the necessary changes are unwilling to do so. I am tired of Brexit and Mr Johnson and the useless opposition parties. We have nothing to celebrate. There are no winners if the planet becomes uninhabitable.
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Post by number13 on Jan 15, 2020 0:22:25 GMT
Of course; I must be half-asleep today.
Mind you, compared with 'Orphan 55' that's quite subtle propaganda I'm of the opinion that Orphan 55 is as subtle as it needs to be. This isn't the 70s, I mean Australia is literally on fire, so a gentle nudge is not enough. My own issues with that story are to do with more coherent plot than a message. Um OK, I was making a joke.
I thought the style and in-your-faceness of the ending was one with the rest of the story (and won't it wind-up the usual critics ) because imo this was a brilliantly written / performed / produced homage/satire of the disaster movie genre - characters, dialogue, plot, the lot. It was a lot of fun, I loved it.
If anything I thought the episode (though it was a cracking action piece and great comedy) would be counterproductive as effective messaging because everyone knows humans aren't going to evolve into a cross between Alien/Morlocks/Velociraptors because of climate change/war/any other disaster; not ever. Our end, if it came to that, would be far less "exciting".
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jan 15, 2020 16:41:38 GMT
I'm of the opinion that Orphan 55 is as subtle as it needs to be. This isn't the 70s, I mean Australia is literally on fire, so a gentle nudge is not enough. My own issues with that story are to do with more coherent plot than a message. Um OK, I was making a joke.
I thought the style and in-your-faceness of the ending was one with the rest of the story (and won't it wind-up the usual critics ) because imo this was a brilliantly written / performed / produced homage/satire of the disaster movie genre - characters, dialogue, plot, the lot. It was a lot of fun, I loved it.
If anything I thought the episode (though it was a cracking action piece and great comedy) would be counterproductive as effective messaging because everyone knows humans aren't going to evolve into a cross between Alien/Morlocks/Velociraptors because of climate change/war/any other disaster; not ever. Our end, if it came to that, would be far less "exciting".
I was of the opinion, and sort of still am, that the survivors were, for want of a better word, not humans per se but humans that had adapted themselves over the years, years and years, to survive on a dying planet, like biological cybermen, until eventually their overlords buggered off leaving the ancestors of those behind. Those things are a lot closer to us than Daleks are to Kaleds!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 18:00:32 GMT
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Post by number13 on Jan 15, 2020 23:44:44 GMT
Um OK, I was making a joke.
I thought the style and in-your-faceness of the ending was one with the rest of the story (and won't it wind-up the usual critics ) because imo this was a brilliantly written / performed / produced homage/satire of the disaster movie genre - characters, dialogue, plot, the lot. It was a lot of fun, I loved it.
If anything I thought the episode (though it was a cracking action piece and great comedy) would be counterproductive as effective messaging because everyone knows humans aren't going to evolve into a cross between Alien/Morlocks/Velociraptors because of climate change/war/any other disaster; not ever. Our end, if it came to that, would be far less "exciting".
I was of the opinion, and sort of still am, that the survivors were, for want of a better word, not humans per se but humans that had adapted themselves over the years, years and years, to survive on a dying planet, like biological cybermen, until eventually their overlords buggered off leaving the ancestors of those behind. Those things are a lot closer to us than Daleks are to Kaleds! Agree, I think that's right. But I think humanity would die out much too soon for evolution to have time to do that. The Earth would be inherited by tougher species, probably reptiles again. (Cheery conversation this )
Of course the Daleks - depending on which history - were made over just a few years. Perhaps the 'dregs' were the result of a similar desperate attempt to fit humans to the environment by artificial mutation? Or (my theory) perhaps making sense of the plot is the last thing we should be looking to do with this story!
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