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Post by number13 on Jan 29, 2021 20:35:08 GMT
...sorry to spoil the mood on this thread (it was a nice moment ) but...
'We must have no hard border on the island of Ireland' (repeat ad infinitum, then the bit that must have been written in very small print) 'unless we in the EU want one then the virtual border gates will slam down in a second.'
I'm very hard to surprise about political hypocrisy (as you may have gathered by now) but this is off the scale. Less than one month. Has the deal even been ratified yet on the EU side? I don't think it has, formally. I know that in theory the UK could also use the same clause for its own reasons, but after all the opprobrium heaped on the UK government by EU supporters over the NI-Irish border issue and "law breaking", this is truly astonishing behaviour from Brussels.
Pleased to read that Dublin is also concerned about the EU actions, let's hope all those who were so vocifereous about 'no hard border' will also be making their views known, including the new U.S. administration. My goodness, the EU are really showing their true colours aren't they?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 20:59:48 GMT
...sorry to spoil the mood on this thread (it was a nice moment ) but...
'We must have no hard border on the island of Ireland' (repeat ad infinitum, then the bit that must have been written in very small print) 'unless we in the EU want one then the virtual border gates will slam down in a second.'
I'm very hard to surprise about political hypocrisy (as you may have gathered by now) but this is off the scale. Less than one month. Has the deal even been ratified yet on the EU side? I don't think it has, formally. I know that in theory the UK could also use the same clause for its own reasons, but after all the opprobrium heaped on the UK government by EU supporters over the NI-Irish border issue and "law breaking", this is truly astonishing behaviour from Brussels.
Pleased to read that Dublin is also concerned about the EU actions, let's hope all those who were so vocifereous about 'no hard border' will also be making their views known, including the new U.S. administration. My goodness, the EU are really showing their true colours aren't they?
The upside of this at least appears from reading about it earlier, is that they face a backlash and international criticism if they enforce these controls. It also puts pressure on Nicola Sturgeon if she enacts her promise to publish the vaccine doses Scotland expects each week, and that if this is then used by the EU as a pretext to block the UK supply, then she will be moving into a high-stakes territory, with her own repercussions.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jan 29, 2021 21:15:54 GMT
...sorry to spoil the mood on this thread (it was a nice moment ) but...
'We must have no hard border on the island of Ireland' (repeat ad infinitum, then the bit that must have been written in very small print) 'unless we in the EU want one then the virtual border gates will slam down in a second.'
I'm very hard to surprise about political hypocrisy (as you may have gathered by now) but this is off the scale. Less than one month. Has the deal even been ratified yet on the EU side? I don't think it has, formally. I know that in theory the UK could also use the same clause for its own reasons, but after all the opprobrium heaped on the UK government by EU supporters over the NI-Irish border issue and "law breaking", this is truly astonishing behaviour from Brussels.
Pleased to read that Dublin is also concerned about the EU actions, let's hope all those who were so vocifereous about 'no hard border' will also be making their views known, including the new U.S. administration. My goodness, the EU are really showing their true colours aren't they?
The EU have lost whatever moral high ground they might have had in relation to the NI Protocol and increased the chances of the NI Assembly opting out of it in 4 years time (although I don't think they will when it comes to it).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 22:58:01 GMT
Early reports suggest the EU has decided to backtrack on its decision.
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Post by number13 on Jan 30, 2021 1:45:24 GMT
The EU have lost whatever moral high ground they might have had in relation to the NI Protocol and increased the chances of the NI Assembly opting out of it in 4 years time (although I don't think they will when it comes to it). Early reports suggest the EU has decided to backtrack on its decision. And thank goodness, they have backed down. So that's one bit of sanity restored. But I agree it has blown their credibility and done the impossible - for a few hours at least the EU managed to reunite the UK's Brexit divide! One little silver lining.
But the export ban is still going ahead. Much justified criticism of this too as 'vaccine nationalism' but isn't it really vaccine protectionism and ultimately as counter-productive as protectionism always is? This is a long haul, we know there are already new strains and possibly in future years the vaccines will have to be modified to match other new strains, like the annual flu vaccine is.
The EU are ruining any reputation they might have had as a good vaccine customer, which seems very foolish when the whole world wants vaccines (now and in future) and the producers will have no shortage of nations wanting to sign future contracts. Nations who don't 'raid' factories, threaten export bans or try to arbitrarily restrict borders as part of a commercial dispute with one company.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 30, 2021 10:14:55 GMT
I am honestly a bit shocked by the naivete of some people on this forum.
All this talk about "moral high grounds" and "ethics"- there never have been any. At least I have not seen any.
Not on either sides.
And there are none to be expected in the near future.
You also expect sanity and common sense?
Sorry I have to wipe the rose-coloured glasses off your eyes... but this year is an election year in Germany.
I am not sure if you have been following any of the news going on in the EU, but Germany is the biggest bully on the block. The stronger nations are shackling all the weaker nations and do not care of any of the people. And inside Germany, one of the biggest bullies is the head of my own state.
He is utterly ruthless.
You thought that all this small talk during the era of Angela Merkel was rough?
You have not seen anything yet.
The people who will follow in her footsteps are ruthless and only care about themselves. They do not care about their own people, so do not expect any quarter given to you. These are the people who called Britons "idiots" on live television and who think of your leader as a "clown". Expect to be treated as such.
Sorry to be the cynic voice here, but I expect that you might have your bottoms handed to you. In small pieces.
There will be A LOT of drama and insults and posturing in the coming months.
Expect a lot of loud shouting and smokescreens to cover up Mount Everest of incompetence.
This vaccine thing? Only a very small taster of things to expect.
The happy days are over.
Forget the voice of reason and sanity. There is no peace among the stars, only the laughter of thirsty gods.
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Post by number13 on Jan 30, 2021 14:28:26 GMT
I have to say you're not really selling the EU as a club anyone would want to belong to tuigirl ?
Personally I've never believed in the high-ideals "vision" of the EU, I saw it as a free-trade and free movement bloc (good if you're in it, protectionist if you're outside it) with growing delusions of statehood (bad).
But still better to be in than out, I thought in 2016. However, the lingering regrets I had about our leaving all died this last week. It's sad to lose our closer ties with the people of Europe, but whatever the future holds for the UK, the way the EU has behaved over vaccines is shameful. I haven't had chance to speak to my most Brexity friend yet, but I know what he'll say: 'I told you so.'
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Jan 30, 2021 14:39:46 GMT
Oh dear. The BBC set up a live Blog at 4:53 this morning to cover the events of the first 'working day' post Brexit, anticipating a build up of queues at the ports and market volatility, for want of two flashpoints. And then clocked off at 10:00 AM as business both at Calais & Dover and the Stock Markets was all running rather smoothly. A case of nothing to report, or no bad news to enjoy? www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-55526235Well, recent events have dampened that bit of optimism.
But it's not just trucks. The entertainment business (my area) is feeling the ripples - actors have said that European projects won't take British actors without European passports, and now, one of our own has been hit too:
And well, this too:
I lost out on writing work I was supposed to have because I don't have an EU passport and can't work in the EU. As soon as we can find my paternal grandmother's birth records in Ireland I'm having an Irish passport. Or, with luck, Scotland goes independent sooner rather than later.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 15:26:05 GMT
These are the people who called Britons "idiots" on live television and who think of your leader as a "clown".
To be fair...that's all pretty much what half of the UK thinks too.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 30, 2021 15:42:42 GMT
But it's not just trucks. The entertainment business (my area) is feeling the ripples - actors have said that European projects won't take British actors without European passports, and now, one of our own has been hit too:
And well, this too:
I lost out on writing work I was supposed to have because I don't have an EU passport and can't work in the EU. As soon as we can find my paternal grandmother's birth records in Ireland I'm having an Irish passport. Or, with luck, Scotland goes independent sooner rather than later. Sorry to hear that Iain. I count myself lucky as having dual citizenship, but even then, new projects for me are still going to take a bit to warm back up.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 30, 2021 19:12:00 GMT
I have to say you're not really selling the EU as a club anyone would want to belong to tuigirl ?
Personally I've never believed in the high-ideals "vision" of the EU, I saw it as a free-trade and free movement bloc (good if you're in it, protectionist if you're outside it) with growing delusions of statehood (bad).
But still better to be in than out, I thought in 2016. However, the lingering regrets I had about our leaving all died this last week. It's sad to lose our closer ties with the people of Europe, but whatever the future holds for the UK, the way the EU has behaved over vaccines is shameful. I haven't had chance to speak to my most Brexity friend yet, but I know what he'll say: 'I told you so.'
I do not think I am in the business of selling anything here... think of myself more of like the weather man, predicting there is a storm front ahead.
And I actually never thought the EU was some kind of "club". "Club" suggests fun and games and cocktails and music. The EU is a political power bloc just like China, Russia or the US. And I have not heard any fun and games from them lately, either.
Looked at it that way, you guys are in deep manure.
So yeah, better to be in than out, I learned from painful experience and a lonely youth that being on bad terms with the school and workplace bullies makes for some hard times and years of pain. I am a very outspoken person with a strong sense of justice, and I had my (mental) teeth kicked in on many occasions.
Pride, justice, ethics and moral high ground are worth crap when you are crying on the sidelines.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 22:10:06 GMT
I have to say you're not really selling the EU as a club anyone would want to belong to tuigirl ?
Personally I've never believed in the high-ideals "vision" of the EU, I saw it as a free-trade and free movement bloc (good if you're in it, protectionist if you're outside it) with growing delusions of statehood (bad).
But still better to be in than out, I thought in 2016. However, the lingering regrets I had about our leaving all died this last week. It's sad to lose our closer ties with the people of Europe, but whatever the future holds for the UK, the way the EU has behaved over vaccines is shameful. I haven't had chance to speak to my most Brexity friend yet, but I know what he'll say: 'I told you so.'
I do not think I am in the business of selling anything here... think of myself more of like the weather man, predicting there is a storm front ahead.
And I actually never thought the EU was some kind of "club". "Club" suggests fun and games and cocktails and music. The EU is a political power bloc just like China, Russia or the US. And I have not heard any fun and games from them lately, either.
Looked at it that way, you guys are in deep manure.
So yeah, better to be in than out, I learned from painful experience and a lonely youth that being on bad terms with the school and workplace bullies makes for some hard times and years of pain. I am a very outspoken person with a strong sense of justice, and I had my (mental) teeth kicked in on many occasions.
Pride, justice, ethics and moral high ground are worth crap when you are crying on the sidelines.
I appreciate your frank and honest assessment. I guess, like myself, personal experience has a bearing on how one views and responds to the behaviour of the 'Bloc party'. For myself its not a behaviour or response I have been taught as acceptable. I was taught to fight back against the bullies (I share and emphasise with your experience) even if it meant a good hiding. But I never did get that good hiding, so I gained confidence in being able to say 'no' and walk tall with a better reputation. Three years ago I walked away from a well paid position of 13 years standing because I would not accept the unprofessional behaviours, attempts at bullying and double standards of my new line management. I said to people that 'I would rather be a Pauper'. That has not yet come to pass, but I feel better on the outside than being belittled by those with the power to rule the roost. I may be worse off financially and career wise, but I feel so much better as a person than I had done in years, for standing my ground and calling out the malpractice, on record. So - a bit more personal than I like to be about myself here (I may be embarrassed afterwards as I am very reserved), but that is what influences my emotional reflex to the behaviours we have witnessed. 'Fight or Flight'. 'Right is Might' vs 'Might is Right'. These are all sayings that hold true in life and whilst it is very much like we are setting off in a life raft leaving the safety of the ship in choppy seas (as the satirists are fond of characterising us), that is something to face up to. So - no politics here - just a personal reflex. An emotional response to the situation as opposed to a pragmatic decision. As Spock would argue 'Illogical', but we know who always challenged that view... Anyway - thanks for providing a less 'parochial' or 'provincial' perspective on this thread. It does broaden it out.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 22:58:56 GMT
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Post by number13 on Jan 30, 2021 23:48:29 GMT
I have to say you're not really selling the EU as a club anyone would want to belong to tuigirl ?
Personally I've never believed in the high-ideals "vision" of the EU, I saw it as a free-trade and free movement bloc (good if you're in it, protectionist if you're outside it) with growing delusions of statehood (bad).
But still better to be in than out, I thought in 2016. However, the lingering regrets I had about our leaving all died this last week. It's sad to lose our closer ties with the people of Europe, but whatever the future holds for the UK, the way the EU has behaved over vaccines is shameful. I haven't had chance to speak to my most Brexity friend yet, but I know what he'll say: 'I told you so.'
I do not think I am in the business of selling anything here... think of myself more of like the weather man, predicting there is a storm front ahead.
And I actually never thought the EU was some kind of "club". "Club" suggests fun and games and cocktails and music. The EU is a political power bloc just like China, Russia or the US. And I have not heard any fun and games from them lately, either.
Looked at it that way, you guys are in deep manure.
So yeah, better to be in than out, I learned from painful experience and a lonely youth that being on bad terms with the school and workplace bullies makes for some hard times and years of pain. I am a very outspoken person with a strong sense of justice, and I had my (mental) teeth kicked in on many occasions.
Pride, justice, ethics and moral high ground are worth crap when you are crying on the sidelines.
Sorry tuigirl, my flippancy got a bit lost in translation I think. But it is remarkable to hear a European voice describing the EU in terms that we usually hear from the most ardent British Brexiteers. As an organisation which wants to make countries afraid to leave - which is not imo an organisation one should wish to join.
I think the UK (whatever combination of nations that means in a few years time) will do well in future. Debates have raged about how many percent worse off (or not) the country will be in X years time relative to the EU or the UK if we had stayed in, but right now any such predictions surely need taking with an even bigger pinch of salt than usual.
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Post by number13 on Jan 30, 2021 23:52:08 GMT
Excellent news. I knew that Japan and (I think) at least one other of the member states had invited us to join, but this is much faster than I'd expected.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 31, 2021 11:16:22 GMT
Sorry tuigirl , my flippancy got a bit lost in translation I think. But it is remarkable to hear a European voice describing the EU in terms that we usually hear from the most ardent British Brexiteers. As an organisation which wants to make countries afraid to leave - which is not imo an organisation one should wish to join.
I think the UK (whatever combination of nations that means in a few years time) will do well in future. Debates have raged about how many percent worse off (or not) the country will be in X years time relative to the EU or the UK if we had stayed in, but right now any such predictions surely need taking with an even bigger pinch of salt than usual.
Well, I would hardly describe me as "a European voice".
I personally see myself as "a citizen of Earth". And I am in desperate hope that all the squabbling kids would finally grow the **** up and tackle the real issues (global pandemics, global warming, ....). In my opinion, we could get rid of the childish and primitive idea of "nations and power blocs" altogether.
I am not the usual every day person. I spend 13 years of my life outside Germany, and 11 years of my life outside Europe (NZ and Oz). I am following the sound advice of one of my teachers and when I make an effort to read up on the news, I also read the news from other countries. So I am aware of what others think of us. This also helps to see the other side of the coin. There are two sides to every story.
I also have gotten rid of a TV for nearly a decade now, so I am also not subjected to state propaganda on a daily basis.
So yeah, not a real "European" representative here, I just happen to live here in Germany.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2021 8:00:40 GMT
The EU are a disgrace, 4 years fighting the UK against a border in Ireland, and then less than a month after Brexit, when it suits them, they are prepared to introduce one - SHAMEFULL ! Thank God we are out of that disaster area. The UK has now vaccinated more people than France. Germany, Italy combined. The EU dropped the ball, were sluggish and spent too long trying to barter for a cheaper deal on a life saving medication. Then when it's all gone wrong, that disgusting piece of trash Macron tries to rubbish the British vaccine while at the same time trying to get his hands on as much of it as he can - MAKE YOUR MIND UP !! The pitiful EU then try to stop it leaving the EU to the rest of the world inc the UK. The world has now seen the EU for what it is, and I for one certainly made the right choice in voting to get out.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 1, 2021 9:37:01 GMT
Debates have raged about how many percent worse off (or not) the country will be in X years time relative to the EU or the UK if we had stayed in, but right now any such predictions surely need taking with an even bigger pinch of salt than usual.
I think anyone who tried to put a specific % on it would be foolish, but certain things will always be true and will make us poorer out than in.
The time and cost of moving goods to an from the UK and its trading partners will always be a factor. And due to our location it will always be quicker and cheaper to move goods to and from the EU than anywhere else in the world. SO in that sense the EU is our natural trading partner, more so than any other country or bloc.
If our trade is artificially diverted away from our closest neighbours by trade barriers, that will mean imports are more expensive due to additional transport/freight costs if they have to come from further afield and our exports are more expensive. All these additional costs reduce household incomes and business profits. It may well be that in some cases the non-EU products we import are cheaper overall or of better quality and the additional costs are justified, and the UK products we export are similarly cheap enough or good enough quality to still be attractive further afield, but it will be an uphill struggle.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 1, 2021 10:30:05 GMT
The EU are a disgrace, 4 years fighting the UK against a border in Ireland, and then less than a month after Brexit, when it suits them, they are prepared to introduce one - SHAMEFULL ! Thank God we are out of that disaster area. The UK has now vaccinated more people than France. Germany, Italy combined. The EU dropped the ball, were sluggish and spent too long trying to barter for a cheaper deal on a life saving medication. Then when it's all gone wrong, that disgusting piece of trash Macron tries to rubbish the British vaccine while at the same time trying to get his hands on as much of it as he can - MAKE YOUR MIND UP !! The pitiful EU then try to stop it leaving the EU to the rest of the world inc the UK. The world has now seen the EU for what it is, and I for one certainly made the right choice in voting to get out. Bad form from the EU, but to echo what tui has been talking about from her POV, that attitude's also too reductive. Lest we forget the promises that the Brexiteers made (and the EU did not force them, in any way or shape, to make): remember the 350 million for the NHS? Protecting the fishermen? A working, state-of-the-art customs system? And well, you do get why a border in Ireland is a really bad thing? Like, you know Irish history right? Why would the EU fighting against something like that be bad? Call a spade a spade, and the EU pulled a spade here, but let's not pave over other events because of the vaccines.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Feb 1, 2021 10:57:43 GMT
The EU are a disgrace, 4 years fighting the UK against a border in Ireland, and then less than a month after Brexit, when it suits them, they are prepared to introduce one - SHAMEFULL ! Thank God we are out of that disaster area. The UK has now vaccinated more people than France. Germany, Italy combined. The EU dropped the ball, were sluggish and spent too long trying to barter for a cheaper deal on a life saving medication. Then when it's all gone wrong, that disgusting piece of trash Macron tries to rubbish the British vaccine while at the same time trying to get his hands on as much of it as he can - MAKE YOUR MIND UP !! The pitiful EU then try to stop it leaving the EU to the rest of the world inc the UK. The world has now seen the EU for what it is, and I for one certainly made the right choice in voting to get out. The EU is not perfect. But out of interest, what specific benefits have you personally gained from leaving the EU? How specifically has your life improved?
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