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Post by number13 on Feb 1, 2021 10:57:54 GMT
The EU are a disgrace, 4 years fighting the UK against a border in Ireland, and then less than a month after Brexit, when it suits them, they are prepared to introduce one - SHAMEFULL ! Thank God we are out of that disaster area. The UK has now vaccinated more people than France. Germany, Italy combined. The EU dropped the ball, were sluggish and spent too long trying to barter for a cheaper deal on a life saving medication. Then when it's all gone wrong, that disgusting piece of trash Macron tries to rubbish the British vaccine while at the same time trying to get his hands on as much of it as he can - MAKE YOUR MIND UP !! The pitiful EU then try to stop it leaving the EU to the rest of the world inc the UK. The world has now seen the EU for what it is, and I for one certainly made the right choice in voting to get out. Bad form from the EU, but to echo what tui has been talking about from her POV, that attitude's also too reductive. Lest we forget the promises that the Brexiteers made (and the EU did not force them, in any way or shape, to make): remember the 350 million for the NHS? Protecting the fishermen? A working, state-of-the-art customs system? And well, you do get why a border in Ireland is a really bad thing? Like, you know Irish history right? Why would the EU fighting against something like that be bad? Call a spade a spade, and the EU pulled a spade here, but let's not pave over other events because of the vaccines. I'm not usually one for posting links to journalists' opinion pieces because they tend to be 'oh well they would say that, wouldn't they?' We know the political/Brexit views of journalist XYZ at media outlet XYZ fairly well by now.
So when John Rentoul writes like this in The Indy, it's worth a read. For the surprise value if nothing else.
"Not only are coronavirus vaccines a great British success story, but they are a great EU failure story, and that failure is a tectonic event that changes the landscape not just in Britain but across Europe. One of the underappreciated facts of Britain leaving the EU, whatever we think of it in Britain, is that it was a disaster for the EU."
And so it goes on. 'Gobsmacked' is not a word I'm fond of, but reading that article, I was.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,819
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 1, 2021 11:54:07 GMT
Hopefully this goes well. I still don't think the economic gains will be enough to offset the economic losses, but having made our bed we have to lie in it and make the best we can of it.
Interesting that the Biden team have talked about joining, so this could be a backdoor route to a US-UK trade deal. Even more interesting is that all the dire threats from the US Congress about consequences for US-UK trade in the event of a hard border materialising in Ireland would be a bit harder to enact if the 2 were members of the same bloc
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Post by number13 on Feb 1, 2021 11:57:46 GMT
Hopefully this goes well.
Interesting that the Biden team have talked about joining, so this could be a backdoor route to a US-UK trade deal. Even more interesting is that all the dire threats from the US Congress about consequences for US-UK trade in the event of a hard border materialising in Ireland would be a bit harder to enact if the 2 were members of the same bloc
Especially if we become a member first and then have to help decide whether to accept the US. (Joke, obviously. Although maybe if one day the EU want to join too... )
Seriously though, it could be a very good way of achieving a UK-US deal. While neatly bypassing the anti-Americanism of the hard Left and the anti-British feeling of some US "progressives"; much harder to object to a multi-national arrangement within an existing bloc.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,819
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 1, 2021 13:22:33 GMT
Bad form from the EU, but to echo what tui has been talking about from her POV, that attitude's also too reductive. Lest we forget the promises that the Brexiteers made (and the EU did not force them, in any way or shape, to make): remember the 350 million for the NHS? Protecting the fishermen? A working, state-of-the-art customs system? And well, you do get why a border in Ireland is a really bad thing? Like, you know Irish history right? Why would the EU fighting against something like that be bad? Call a spade a spade, and the EU pulled a spade here, but let's not pave over other events because of the vaccines. I'm not usually one for posting links to journalists' opinion pieces because they tend to be 'oh well they would say that, wouldn't they?' We know the political/Brexit views of journalist XYZ at media outlet XYZ fairly well by now.
So when John Rentoul writes like this in The Indy, it's worth a read. For the surprise value if nothing else.
"Not only are coronavirus vaccines a great British success story, but they are a great EU failure story, and that failure is a tectonic event that changes the landscape not just in Britain but across Europe. One of the underappreciated facts of Britain leaving the EU, whatever we think of it in Britain, is that it was a disaster for the EU."
And so it goes on. 'Gobsmacked' is not a word I'm fond of, but reading that article, I was.
Methinks Boris has been very very lucky - almost, but not quite, "the-Argentines-have-invaded-the-Falklands" lucky.
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Post by The Brigadier on Feb 1, 2021 14:04:25 GMT
You've got to admit that the irony of a populist Conservative government pulling us out of a trade partnership in part because they didn't want to follow the rules on *checks notes* Environmental Standards, Fishing quotas, Agriculture and Workers Rights.... now looking to join a trade partnership where they would have to follow the rules on *checks notes* Environmental Standards, Fishing quotas, Agriculture and Workers Rights....is absolutely delicious.
Despite the inevitable roadblocks ahead though I also hope the application goes well - considering the damage done to our economy because of a badly negotiated deal with the EU and a global pandemic we need all the help we can get - but I wonder what the CPTPP members views are on applicants who threaten to renege on negotiated trade deals and public declarations of intent to break International Law?
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Post by number13 on Feb 1, 2021 14:31:44 GMT
You've got to admit that the irony of a populist Conservative government pulling us out of a trade partnership in part because they didn't want to follow the rules on *checks notes* Environmental Standards, Fishing quotas, Agriculture and Workers Rights.... now looking to join a trade partnership where they would have to follow the rules on *checks notes* Environmental Standards, Fishing quotas, Agriculture and Workers Rights....is absolutely delicious. Despite the inevitable roadblocks ahead though I also hope the application goes well - considering the damage done to our economy because of a badly negotiated deal with the EU and a global pandemic we need all the help we can get - but I wonder what the CPTPP members views are on applicants who threaten to renege on negotiated trade deals and public declarations of intent to break International Law? They invited the UK to join, after the fact, so I expect they think reasonably OK of us.
We are of course still following most of those EU rules and standards, even if they are transferred into British law now - its the CFP and CAP we're out of. And good riddance to both of them - maybe the two worst ideas the EU ever had! Unless you were a big landowner of course in which case the CAP was a bottomless pot of gold.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 1, 2021 14:58:09 GMT
I'm not usually one for posting links to journalists' opinion pieces because they tend to be 'oh well they would say that, wouldn't they?' We know the political/Brexit views of journalist XYZ at media outlet XYZ fairly well by now.
So when John Rentoul writes like this in The Indy, it's worth a read. For the surprise value if nothing else.
"Not only are coronavirus vaccines a great British success story, but they are a great EU failure story, and that failure is a tectonic event that changes the landscape not just in Britain but across Europe. One of the underappreciated facts of Britain leaving the EU, whatever we think of it in Britain, is that it was a disaster for the EU."
And so it goes on. 'Gobsmacked' is not a word I'm fond of, but reading that article, I was.
Methinks Boris has been very very lucky - almost, but not quite, "the-Argentines-have-invaded-the-Falklands" lucky. And it's important we remember that - Boris and Hancock lucked out in this situation. If the Oxford vaccine that they so supported hadn't worked... It wasn't some brilliant strategy, and I'm wary of attempts to retroactively claim it as such, compared to basically all their other pandemic mishaps. Had it not been for the EU's whack, we'd still be talking about stuffing old tuna and half a carrot into coin bags for kids.
I say, keep the thanks where it matters - to the Oxford scientists, as well as the NHS staff, pharmacists and army personnel who are manning the vaccination centers. They're the real heroes here.
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Post by number13 on Feb 1, 2021 16:58:42 GMT
They invited the UK to join, after the fact, so I expect they think reasonably OK of us.
We are of course still following most of those EU rules and standards, even if they are transferred into British law now - its the CFP and CAP we're out of. And good riddance to both of them - maybe the two worst ideas the EU ever had! Unless you were a big landowner of course in which case the CAP was a bottomless pot of gold.
Oh..thats right..I completely forgot. They did invite us... In an open letter in the Daily Telegraph. Some ten months ago. Just three of the eleven members expressing a willingness to offer a seat at the table if we applied In the very early days of the global pandemic. Prior to the economy tanking. Prior to Johnson threatening to renege on his own negotiated deal. Prior to the UK iindicating publicly a willingness to break International law. But you are probably right. I'm sure that is all water under the bridge by now. I'm sure they all think reasonably of us. OK then, the world despises us, no decent nation will ever want to deal with us again and we have nothing in our future but isolation and one unmitigated disaster after another until Labour put it all right one glorious day.
No Conservative government - especially this one - will ever have any success, hopefully. If they do, the success was due to luck or other people and they just happened to be around when it occurred. All blame is theirs, all credit belongs to someone else.
(When the UK was in the politically reversed situation, I wasn't that partisan. And I'm fairly partisan. )
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,819
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 1, 2021 17:06:16 GMT
Oh..thats right..I completely forgot. They did invite us... In an open letter in the Daily Telegraph. Some ten months ago. Just three of the eleven members expressing a willingness to offer a seat at the table if we applied In the very early days of the global pandemic. Prior to the economy tanking. Prior to Johnson threatening to renege on his own negotiated deal. Prior to the UK iindicating publicly a willingness to break International law. But you are probably right. I'm sure that is all water under the bridge by now. I'm sure they all think reasonably of us. OK then, the world despises us, no decent nation will ever want to deal with us again and we have nothing in our future but isolation and one unmitigated disaster after another until Labour put it all right one glorious day.
No Conservative government - especially this one - will ever have any success, hopefully. If they do, the success was due to luck or other people and they just happened to be around when it occurred. All blame is theirs, all credit belongs to someone else.
(When the UK was in the politically reversed situation, I wasn't that partisan. And I'm fairly partisan. )
If I had the technical know-how I would post a clip of Harry Enfield's Scousers saying "calm down, calm down, eh"
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Post by number13 on Feb 1, 2021 17:08:31 GMT
Methinks Boris has been very very lucky - almost, but not quite, "the-Argentines-have-invaded-the-Falklands" lucky. And it's important we remember that - Boris and Hancock lucked out in this situation. If the Oxford vaccine that they so supported hadn't worked... It wasn't some brilliant strategy, and I'm wary of attempts to retroactively claim it as such, compared to basically all their other pandemic mishaps. Had it not been for the EU's whack, we'd still be talking about stuffing old tuna and half a carrot into coin bags for kids.
I say, keep the thanks where it matters - to the Oxford scientists, as well as the NHS staff, pharmacists and army personnel who are manning the vaccination centers. They're the real heroes here.
I could link to a really interesting and detailed article* which sets out how exactly the UK vaccine strategy happened and it was and is a lot more than 'backing one vaccine.' Oxford/AZ is a triumph, but it's only about 1/4 of the total vaccines order the UK has in place, assuming they are all approved for use of course.
There was a lot of forward planning which went unnoticed at the time because of the cascade of crises last spring. It wasn't luck and it's ongoing, such as the huge additional vaccine purchase announced today. I'm probably almost as surprised as you that this happened, given everything else, but it has happened and saying the government did nothing to make it happen is, with respect, wrong. EDIT: (Not 'with respect' in the 'Yes, Minister' sense. )
*But the article was in the Mail so I won't bother.
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Post by number13 on Feb 1, 2021 17:09:10 GMT
OK then, the world despises us, no decent nation will ever want to deal with us again and we have nothing in our future but isolation and one unmitigated disaster after another until Labour put it all right one glorious day.
No Conservative government - especially this one - will ever have any success, hopefully. If they do, the success was due to luck or other people and they just happened to be around when it occurred. All blame is theirs, all credit belongs to someone else.
(When the UK was in the politically reversed situation, I wasn't that partisan. And I'm fairly partisan. )
If I had the technical know-how I would post a clip of Harry Enfield's Scousers saying "calm down, calm down, eh" lol! That was me being calm. Bit sarky, but calm. There are probably Brexit-delayed-at-import cucumbers less chilled than I was there. If it appeared I was instead an extra-hot chili pepper, my apologies. Perhaps we should post in colours from blue to red to indicate emotional temperature? Mind you, those colours could be misinterpreted as political so...
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Feb 1, 2021 17:35:28 GMT
And it's important we remember that - Boris and Hancock lucked out in this situation. If the Oxford vaccine that they so supported hadn't worked... It wasn't some brilliant strategy, and I'm wary of attempts to retroactively claim it as such, compared to basically all their other pandemic mishaps. Had it not been for the EU's whack, we'd still be talking about stuffing old tuna and half a carrot into coin bags for kids.
I say, keep the thanks where it matters - to the Oxford scientists, as well as the NHS staff, pharmacists and army personnel who are manning the vaccination centers. They're the real heroes here.
I could link to a really interesting and detailed article* which sets out how exactly the UK vaccine strategy happened and it was and is a lot more than 'backing one vaccine.' Oxford/AZ is a triumph, but it's only about 1/4 of the total vaccines order the UK has in place, assuming they are all approved for use of course.
There was a lot of forward planning which went unnoticed at the time because of the cascade of crises last spring. It wasn't luck and it's ongoing, such as the huge additional vaccine purchase announced today. I'm probably almost as surprised as you that this happened, given everything else, but it has happened and saying the government did nothing to make it happen is, with respect, wrong. EDIT: (Not 'with respect' in the 'Yes, Minister' sense. )
*But the article was in the Mail so I won't bother. The Oxford comment was more in relation to the Astrazeneca debacle of the last week and how it's being framed in the media. Nor did I say they did absolutely nothing - just not to give them excess praise in relation to, well, everything else that's happened. I'm glad the vaccines are getting rolled out, but proof that Boris is great it is not: again, the credit belongs to many other people as well.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,819
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 1, 2021 18:24:04 GMT
I could link to a really interesting and detailed article* which sets out how exactly the UK vaccine strategy happened and it was and is a lot more than 'backing one vaccine.' Oxford/AZ is a triumph, but it's only about 1/4 of the total vaccines order the UK has in place, assuming they are all approved for use of course.
There was a lot of forward planning which went unnoticed at the time because of the cascade of crises last spring. It wasn't luck and it's ongoing, such as the huge additional vaccine purchase announced today. I'm probably almost as surprised as you that this happened, given everything else, but it has happened and saying the government did nothing to make it happen is, with respect, wrong. EDIT: (Not 'with respect' in the 'Yes, Minister' sense. )
*But the article was in the Mail so I won't bother. The Oxford comment was more in relation to the Astrazeneca debacle of the last week and how it's being framed in the media. Nor did I say they did absolutely nothing - just not to give them excess praise in relation to, well, everything else that's happened. I'm glad the vaccines are getting rolled out, but proof that Boris is great it is not: again, the credit belongs to many other people as well. It probably happened the week Boris was in intensive care and someone else was taking the decisions - that will be how they made a good decision
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Post by number13 on Feb 1, 2021 18:36:12 GMT
I could link to a really interesting and detailed article* which sets out how exactly the UK vaccine strategy happened and it was and is a lot more than 'backing one vaccine.' Oxford/AZ is a triumph, but it's only about 1/4 of the total vaccines order the UK has in place, assuming they are all approved for use of course.
There was a lot of forward planning which went unnoticed at the time because of the cascade of crises last spring. It wasn't luck and it's ongoing, such as the huge additional vaccine purchase announced today. I'm probably almost as surprised as you that this happened, given everything else, but it has happened and saying the government did nothing to make it happen is, with respect, wrong. EDIT: (Not 'with respect' in the 'Yes, Minister' sense. )
*But the article was in the Mail so I won't bother. The Oxford comment was more in relation to the Astrazeneca debacle of the last week and how it's being framed in the media. Nor did I say they did absolutely nothing - just not to give them excess praise in relation to, well, everything else that's happened. I'm glad the vaccines are getting rolled out, but proof that Boris is great it is not: again, the credit belongs to many other people as well. Fair enough, yes it has all been about the AZ vaccine this week - though there was also the reverse part of the controversy: would the EU really ban exports of the German/Belgian produced vaccines? (Thankfully, on reflection, no they wouldn't.)
Yes the credit very certainly belongs to many many other people too, primarily we are so lucky this happened now (since something like it was inevitable at some point) after years of vaccine/virus research work and not 10 or 20 years ago. We owe all the scientists and medical staff hugely, beyond measure.
But the forward planning for vaccine logistics/infrastructure now was started by the government in May last year (no doubt in part prompted by the realisation of the obvious lack of sufficient forward planning for what was happening then) and they really went for it in a way that few other nations have. One thing that was got very right and it'll have to go on going right for a long time, maybe more or less permanently.
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Post by number13 on Feb 1, 2021 18:42:06 GMT
The Oxford comment was more in relation to the Astrazeneca debacle of the last week and how it's being framed in the media. Nor did I say they did absolutely nothing - just not to give them excess praise in relation to, well, everything else that's happened. I'm glad the vaccines are getting rolled out, but proof that Boris is great it is not: again, the credit belongs to many other people as well. It probably happened the week Boris was in intensive care and someone else was taking the decisions - that will be how they made a good decision Ouch!
It was a bit later than that, Matt Hancock / the Dept of Health etc. apparently started the ball rolling last May.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,819
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 1, 2021 19:13:54 GMT
It probably happened the week Boris was in intensive care and someone else was taking the decisions - that will be how they made a good decision Ouch!
It was a bit later than that, Matt Hancock / the Dept of Health etc. apparently started the ball rolling last May.
I was only kidding! It seems however that either the credit belongs to Mr Hancock or else he has the best spin doctor of all cabinet ministers
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Post by The Brigadier on Feb 1, 2021 20:52:30 GMT
Oh..thats right..I completely forgot. They did invite us... In an open letter in the Daily Telegraph. Some ten months ago. Just three of the eleven members expressing a willingness to offer a seat at the table if we applied In the very early days of the global pandemic. Prior to the economy tanking. Prior to Johnson threatening to renege on his own negotiated deal. Prior to the UK iindicating publicly a willingness to break International law. But you are probably right. I'm sure that is all water under the bridge by now. I'm sure they all think reasonably of us. OK then, the world despises us, no decent nation will ever want to deal with us again and we have nothing in our future but isolation and one unmitigated disaster after another until Labour put it all right one glorious day.
No Conservative government - especially this one - will ever have any success, hopefully. If they do, the success was due to luck or other people and they just happened to be around when it occurred. All blame is theirs, all credit belongs to someone else.
(When the UK was in the politically reversed situation, I wasn't that partisan. And I'm fairly partisan. ) Nice try. However this has nothing to do with partisanship or any belief you think I have in the left to do any better - for the record I have had little confidence in the Labour party's abilities to govern for nearly a decade now - but everything to do with how the current Government has handled the situation we currently find ourselves (COVID and the outcome of the EU negotiations). Like it or not, with the exception of the vaccine rollout (which I will publicly acknowledge here and now has been a success) and the furlough scheme.. everything else has (in your own words) been one unmitigated disaster after another. I could sit and come up with a long list but what would be the point? You know as well as I do what those failures have been. They've been publicised often enough. Despite all of that though I still want us to succeed outside of the EU...because we now have no choice now but to succeed. I voted to Remain yet fully accept that rejoining the European Union won't happen for at least a decade, possibly two thanks to their immense **** up on Friday night. I just didn't think we'd come out of it in such a fragile economic state compounded by an appallingly bad deal. I want the vaccine rollout to further succeed beyond the promised fifteen million, yet cannot shake the nagging fear that the deliberate vagueness over actual dosage numbers is going to come back and bite us when the second jab becomes due for so many. I hope our application to the CPTPP is successful...but I don't believe it will be smooth sailing for a single moment. A partnership is based on many things including trust. Can you honestly say our International standing...the reputation we earned...hasn't been damaged by the gung ho cowboy diplomacy and outright dishonesty last year concerning Northern Ireland? And do you want to know the really funny thing? Had Johnson not ousted the moderate Conservatives and let a calmer, steadier hand help him steer us through this mess...had we not had to endure the lies, the cronyism and the general incompetence of his premiership...had we not had pay a dreadful price in so many ways since last March...I might have found myself on your side of the political fence. I might have voted for him. But he did, we did and I'm not. So we are where we are. Which in terms of political allegiances leaves me sitting on the fence. A "citizen of Nowhere".
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,819
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 1, 2021 23:55:32 GMT
Methinks Boris has been very very lucky - almost, but not quite, "the-Argentines-have-invaded-the-Falklands" lucky. And it's important we remember that - Boris and Hancock lucked out in this situation. If the Oxford vaccine that they so supported hadn't worked... It wasn't some brilliant strategy, and I'm wary of attempts to retroactively claim it as such, compared to basically all their other pandemic mishaps. Had it not been for the EU's whack, we'd still be talking about stuffing old tuna and half a carrot into coin bags for kids.
I say, keep the thanks where it matters - to the Oxford scientists, as well as the NHS staff, pharmacists and army personnel who are manning the vaccination centers. They're the real heroes here.
On reflection I think it's more a case of the EU did something very badly than that the UK did anything extraordinarily good, with the contrast very much working in the UK's favour.
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Post by number13 on Feb 3, 2021 15:26:19 GMT
I expected Brexit to lead to 'divergence'. I never expected it to lead to the EU entering a parallel universe.
and
while
and
Even allowing for most politicians' inability to ever admit that 'the other side' have got it right and they haven't, this has gone well past ridiculous.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 15:52:51 GMT
I expected Brexit to lead to 'divergence'. I never expected it to lead to the EU entering a parallel universe.
and
while
and
Even allowing for most politicians' inability to ever admit that 'the other side' have got it right and they haven't, this has gone well past ridiculous.
I suppose this is one of those instances where only time will tell. If there are side effects to the vaccine over the next few years, the EU will doubtless remind the world how right they are in their cautiousness. If on the other hand, the vaccination process is seen as a success, then I'm sure they'll be equally eager to admit that maybe they got it wrong ... oh, hang on a minute!
It does seem as if the EU's apparent ongoing petulance in this situation could be seen as spreading exactly the kind of horror stories about vaccinations that social media has been condemned for. It's hard to see what their motives are, but - and I say this as open-mindedly as I can - they aren't coming across particularly well at the moment
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