shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 15, 2018 21:19:58 GMT
Twelve and Bill and Nardole go on travelling together for at least two more seasons. You like Bill? Would you keep her ending? Being killed, turned to a Cyberman, and eventually becoming immortal? And, constantly reminding us she's a lesbian? Compared to the number of times we were reminded of Jo and Mike going on dates, or Peri being lusted after by various nefarious types, or the Rose/ Mickey/ Doctor triangle? It wasn't overdone at all.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Apr 15, 2018 22:02:23 GMT
Keep: Grumpy with hearts of gold, thr guitar, the sonic sunglasses, the hoodie/jacket combo, Nardole, Bill, Missy, the tendency to speech making. Ditch: Clara in season 9, the overt rudeness. Change: Clara leaves to be with Danny at the end of series 8, but gets drawn into “Wizard’s Apprentice” because she’s the first person Kate calls. Ashildr becomes the de facto series 9 companion, except she’s not travelling with the Doctor, instead all the stories are her encountering him as she hoes through history not aging. “Under The Lake” comes after “Woman Who Lived” in the running order in order to allow that. She’s financing the dig for her own reasons. “Kill the Moon” happens, but the Doctor doesn’t abandon Clara, instead he takes Courtney home and doesn’t come back until afterwords because he’s already had to face pushing the button once (the Moment) and doesn’t want the responsibility to do so again. Clara is still pissed off at him, has her rant, but he stares her down, tells her not to lecture him on responsibility and dumps her back on Earth. It’s outright stated in the next story that she hasn’t seen him for months. He’s forgiven her but she hasn’t forgiven him, the ride on the Orient Express is his idea of an Olive Branch. Danny goes with them, sees both sides of the Doctor and admits while he doesn’t like the Doctor, he is a good man. “Face the Raven” still happens, but no Clara or Riggsy. Ashildr manipulates the Doctor.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Apr 15, 2018 23:12:33 GMT
Keep: Grumpy with hearts of gold, thr guitar, the sonic sunglasses, the hoodie/jacket combo, Nardole, Bill, Missy, the tendency to speech making.Ditch: Clara in season 9, the overt rudeness. Change: Clara leaves to be with Danny at the end of series 8, but gets drawn into “Wizard’s Apprentice” because she’s the first person Kate calls. Ashildr becomes the de facto series 9 companion, except she’s not travelling with the Doctor, instead all the stories are her encountering him as she hoes through history not aging. “Under The Lake” comes after “Woman Who Lived” in the running order in order to allow that. She’s financing the dig for her own reasons. “Kill the Moon” happens, but the Doctor doesn’t abandon Clara, instead he takes Courtney home and doesn’t come back until afterwords because he’s already had to face pushing the button once (the Moment) and doesn’t want the responsibility to do so again. Clara is still pissed off at him, has her rant, but he stares her down, tells her not to lecture him on responsibility and dumps her back on Earth. It’s outright stated in the next story that she hasn’t seen him for months. He’s forgiven her but she hasn’t forgiven him, the ride on the Orient Express is his idea of an Olive Branch. Danny goes with them, sees both sides of the Doctor and admits while he doesn’t like the Doctor, he is a good man. “Face the Raven” still happens, but no Clara or Riggsy. Ashildr manipulates the Doctor. Jeez. You want to keep all the stuff I hated.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Apr 15, 2018 23:22:35 GMT
Keep: Grumpy with hearts of gold, thr guitar, the sonic sunglasses, the hoodie/jacket combo, Nardole, Bill, Missy, the tendency to speech making. Ditch: Clara in season 9, the overt rudeness. Change: Clara leaves to be with Danny at the end of series 8, but gets drawn into “Wizard’s Apprentice” because she’s the first person Kate calls. Ashildr becomes the de facto series 9 companion, except she’s not travelling with the Doctor, instead all the stories are her encountering him as she hoes through history not aging. “Under The Lake” comes after “Woman Who Lived” in the running order in order to allow that. She’s financing the dig for her own reasons. “Kill the Moon” happens, but the Doctor doesn’t abandon Clara, instead he takes Courtney home and doesn’t come back until afterwords because he’s already had to face pushing the button once (the Moment) and doesn’t want the responsibility to do so again. Clara is still pissed off at him, has her rant, but he stares her down, tells her not to lecture him on responsibility and dumps her back on Earth. It’s outright stated in the next story that she hasn’t seen him for months. He’s forgiven her but she hasn’t forgiven him, the ride on the Orient Express is his idea of an Olive Branch. Danny goes with them, sees both sides of the Doctor and admits while he doesn’t like the Doctor, he is a good man. “Face the Raven” still happens, but no Clara or Riggsy. Ashildr manipulates the Doctor. Excellent list. While I would have liked to have seen Clara leave with 11, I could have lived with this scenario.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Apr 16, 2018 0:12:35 GMT
Keep: Grumpy with hearts of gold, thr guitar, the sonic sunglasses, the hoodie/jacket combo, Nardole, Bill, Missy, the tendency to speech making. Ditch: Clara in season 9, the overt rudeness. Change: Clara leaves to be with Danny at the end of series 8, but gets drawn into “Wizard’s Apprentice” because she’s the first person Kate calls. Ashildr becomes the de facto series 9 companion, except she’s not travelling with the Doctor, instead all the stories are her encountering him as she hoes through history not aging. “Under The Lake” comes after “Woman Who Lived” in the running order in order to allow that. She’s financing the dig for her own reasons. “Kill the Moon” happens, but the Doctor doesn’t abandon Clara, instead he takes Courtney home and doesn’t come back until afterwords because he’s already had to face pushing the button once (the Moment) and doesn’t want the responsibility to do so again. Clara is still pissed off at him, has her rant, but he stares her down, tells her not to lecture him on responsibility and dumps her back on Earth. It’s outright stated in the next story that she hasn’t seen him for months. He’s forgiven her but she hasn’t forgiven him, the ride on the Orient Express is his idea of an Olive Branch. Danny goes with them, sees both sides of the Doctor and admits while he doesn’t like the Doctor, he is a good man. “Face the Raven” still happens, but no Clara or Riggsy. Ashildr manipulates the Doctor. And the “Zygon Invasion Inversion” has no Ashildr at all. Bonny copies Osgood from the start. The Doctor explicitly states that Harry didn’t create a poison gas “Harry Sullivan is many things, a great big idiot, a brilliant writer, exactly the sort of person you’d hire if you couldn’t find me BUT a murderer? A war criminal? Never. He was trying to make an anaesthetic gas and accidentally invented genocide in a can. Who do you think called me? UNIT? UNIT would have made it into a bomb. Torchwood? They’d have pumped it into the water supply. Harry Sullivan is an idiot, but he’s a very moral idiot. He knows what the consequences of war would be...” cue the “sit down and talk” speech.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 0:45:07 GMT
Danny Pink!!!
Awful character motivation, really awkwardly played.
Regards
mark687 Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I love Danny. And Samuel Anderson gave him a very natural sweet charm. I may have got emotional. I may have complained to people about being unable to find my own Danny Pink. A lot. He's a great counterpoint to both The Doctor and Clara. Unlike either of them, he's struggling, but he deals with his issues and channels them into productive outlets to help others. And his relationship with Clara is just so achingly sad, neither of them are on the same page and are trying to make it work. There's a huge chasm in terms of life experience and differences as people for both of them to work through - Danny had to mature very quickly from his war experiences and was always going to struggle with relationships with people his own age out of the army. Whether or not they could have, is another issue. (I know Moffatt has said, but at the time, but Rupert Pink's conversation with Clara kind of struck me as being very ambigiously played and strikes me as a bit of a retcon) It's heavily hinted that Clara's heavy self-reliance and directness developed out of her Father struggling with her Mother's death and it's very telling that she stayed as long as she did with the Maitlands. Clara's missed a few steps and she's never really had a chance to figure herself or other people out. Traveling with The Doctor gave her the space to deal with that, with adventure, with someone who seemingly had no needs other then just having a good time. She's placed back in the caretaker role when hearing about the Time War, although Eleven takes steps for her not to become involved with him dealing with trauma and that it isn't her burden to bear, not wanting her to become another Amy and after The Name of The Doctor, there's a sense that Eleven restablishes those barriers for Clara to get on with her own life. This changes when The Doctor is forced to confront the Time War all over again and Clara get's to experience it's, where their dynamic changes and their lives have become more interwined and dependent on each other in The Time of The Doctor. And then....The Doctor changes. She sees him die and come back to life, reminding her of. Eleven pleads for her to stay, to help him and despite, she can't. Her friend is different, less curutous of her feelings, less gentle, and yet somehow, still her friend. And she's working, she's a role model, dealing with a Stepmother who doesn't like her - and it's a lot for her to deal with. She hasn't figured herself out, yet she's expected to be a role model for these kids and if you can, why not escape in time and space machine? Her friend is going to snap out of it one day, (regardless of what Vastra says) isn't he? Sometimes, he's just as he was underneath it all, and sometimes...not so much. While Eleven had a (albeit forced from bitter experience with Amy and Rory) sense of Clara's needs and barriers, Twelve clearly doesn't. At times, he expects and takes too much of her. And then Clara meets this guy. This sweet, gentle, dumb, smart guy. With silly smile. He's sensitive and kind, things The Doctor isn't exactly being at this point. There both stuck in school with the kids. And she's Clara, she's smart, funny and they've both gone through stuff, why wouldn't that be right for each other? For me, Danny always struck me as Clara's first serious relationship, something she wasn't prepared for and while she knew about his issues, she didn't have a sense enough of her own or her own person to reliase they weren't going to mesh well. Clara struck me someone who had some VERY romanticised ideas about relationships from her Father's remensinces about her Mother, as well. She wants to be a good teacher, she wants to travel in time and space and she wants the epic romance and she wants her friend to come back and she can't have it all. She needs to step back and figure herself out. It's not fair on herself or other people and she doesn't reliase that she can't or that all of these things aren't good for her or other people in her life. And while I can't blame her for not taking Danny outlining his expectations for their relationship at face value - there still getting to know each other at this point and she doesn't have a gauge for his trauma - I don't blame her for trying to knit two big parts of her life and I think any person without Danny's experiences would struggle to meet his expectations. That's not saying that Clara lying or manipulating Danny is anyway okay. It wasn't. It was selfish, although understandable. Danny deserved better then that, particularly with his experiences. Whether or not they could have moved past that, is another issue enterily. And I like the reverse gender dynamics between them - Danny's the guy in touch with his feelings and emotions. I can't blame Danny for not liking The Doctor. The Doctor is defined by the Time War, by being in command and it's a role we see him slip back into time and time again, however much he resents it. Danny doesn't know their history and when he does, it's kind of skewed by the events of The Caretaker. Danny knows Clara is impulsive, wild and reckless at times and also caring and it's not a surprise that he sees The Doctor as a danger to her. He respect that it's her and is trying not to be Dumb Bloke choice, but he also cautions her and lays out his own needs. And Danny ain't wrong about The Doctor, either. The Doctor's a mess and he's dragging Clara right into it. Could they have reconciled their differences for Clara? Maybe, maybe not. (I'd imagine Danny and Clara would need a break from each other to figure themselves out and I don't know if Danny would be comfortable ever around The Doctor) Danny's a sweet, deeply empathetic, nice in some ways simple guy in touch with his emotions and masculinity struggling with trauma who deserved better then Clara. (And I say that as a Clara fan!)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 0:55:47 GMT
I can't help but wonder if series eight might have played better to parts of the audience if it'd been cut in half and billed as a mini-series, giving the audience a tighter sense that this was still The Doctor, but struggling to define himself. Run series nine as it was, propel the audience into Clara's grief and The Doctor being The Doctor, but with some very sharp edges. I loved it , but I can see while others didn't.
Wouldn't change anything about series ten, it's one of the best series of the revival!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 1:14:53 GMT
Not much, honestly. Its been easily my favourite era of New Who even if its not resonated with the public as Matt's or - especially - David's has.
Few clunkers along the way and aesthetically I much prefer the aging rocker with hoody and sunglasses to the Presbyterian minister look of Season 8. The era gets looser as it goes on. Series 10, which Moffat never planned for, has a real vibrancy that I think if it were present in 2014, the ratings and AI would be higher now. Clara never bugged me like she does some, and when she did it was mostly intentional. A bit like Rose, I think some fans (and I said some, not all before you quote me...) confuse the character being written as flawed with being a bad character.
Moffat seemed to tell the big stories he wanted with Matt so with Peter he expanded what the show did. We got shows that really challenged who the character was in the modern era. "I'm not your boyfriend" indeed.
I've had 3 years of the kind of Who I love - but I don't grudge Chibnall if he's going to go much broader and somewhat safer again to reinvigorate the show.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 1:20:05 GMT
And I didn't really dislike Danny either, though the relationship he and The Doctor had in The Caretaker was not going to endear Danny to anyone. He came off as a torn faced fud and though I like what they did with him elsewhere, I think the damage was done for much of the audience in that ep. The Doctor didn't come off well either but he at least had a 51 year relationship with the audience....
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Apr 16, 2018 1:21:24 GMT
I think that with Danny, we are inherently inclined to take the Doctor’s side so Danny’s reaction to him in effect puts us against Danny. We really needed to have firmly established him as a character OR spent time afterwards filling in more backstory. Throw in a CO with the same attitude as the Doctor (which was vaguely there but really needed to be fleshed out). Make us see things from his perspective. Maybe even tell “the Caretaker” entirely from his perspective with his bit flakey girlfriend but mostly cool, his PTSD, the arsehole janitor who really does remind him of his old CO and then put everyone into a situation where we see things through the lens of that PTSD. So when he and the Doctor have their shouting match both men can be seen as being in the right. Ohh and drop the “PE” gags, Lethbridge-Stewart became a maths teacher after all, but to balance it I’d have the Doctor tell him outright he thinks he’s a fool and endangering children, and then show Danny’s reaction to that.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 1:29:04 GMT
I think that with Danny, we are inherently inclined to take the Doctor’s side so Danny’s reaction to him in effect puts us against Danny. We really needed to have firmly established him as a character OR spent time afterwards filling in more backstory. Throw in a CO with the same attitude as the Doctor (which was vaguely there but really needed to be fleshed out). Make us see things from his perspective. Maybe even tell “the Caretaker” entirely from his perspective with his bit flakey girlfriend but mostly cool, his PTSD, the arsehole janitor who really does remind him of his old CO and then put everyone into a situation where we see things through the lens of that PTSD. So when he and the Doctor have their shouting match both men can be seen as being in the right. Ohh and drop the “PE” gags, Lethbridge-Stewart became a maths teacher after all, but to balance it I’d have the Doctor tell him outright he thinks he’s a fool and endangering children, and then show Danny’s reaction to that. Eh, I think it's pretty even keeled given how Danny was established in prior episodes. I think The Brigader was kind of invoked with the PE lines. The Brigader's been gone for awhile now for The Doctor, it makes sense given The Day of The Doctor that The Doctor is trying to distance himself from the war and anything military. Not fair, especially to Danny, but The Doctor's reprocessing a lot of trauma at this point. The Doctor kind of comes off badly - Danny respects that The Doctor has a place in Clara's life (and if he wasn't processing a lot of trauma himself, he'd probably have ended things here and there), but The Doctor doesn't respect Danny's place in Clara's life.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,677
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 16, 2018 8:49:58 GMT
I think that with Danny, we are inherently inclined to take the Doctor’s side so Danny’s reaction to him in effect puts us against Danny. We really needed to have firmly established him as a character OR spent time afterwards filling in more backstory. Throw in a CO with the same attitude as the Doctor (which was vaguely there but really needed to be fleshed out). Make us see things from his perspective. Maybe even tell “the Caretaker” entirely from his perspective with his bit flakey girlfriend but mostly cool, his PTSD, the arsehole janitor who really does remind him of his old CO and then put everyone into a situation where we see things through the lens of that PTSD. So when he and the Doctor have their shouting match both men can be seen as being in the right. Ohh and drop the “PE” gags, Lethbridge-Stewart became a maths teacher after all, but to balance it I’d have the Doctor tell him outright he thinks he’s a fool and endangering children, and then show Danny’s reaction to that. I totally got where Danny was coming from: Clara was lying to him about what she was up to when she wasn't seeing him and he didn't like that but he (wisely) left it up to her to decide what she wanted. He also (rightly from his perspective) blamed the Doctor for putting Clara in danger. I thought the PE bit was funny as an occasional gag but, as others have said, it totally undermines the fact that the Brigadier was also a teacher. As you've said, a story from his perspective would have been brilliant!
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Post by mark687 on Apr 16, 2018 10:04:23 GMT
Danny Pink!!!
Awful character motivation, really awkwardly played.
Regards
mark687 Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I love Danny. And Samuel Anderson gave him a very natural sweet charm. I may have got emotional. I may have complained to people about being unable to find my own Danny Pink. A lot. He's a great counterpoint to both The Doctor and Clara. Unlike either of them, he's struggling, but he deals with his issues and channels them into productive outlets to help others. And his relationship with Clara is just so achingly sad, neither of them are on the same page and are trying to make it work. There's a huge chasm in terms of life experience and differences as people for both of them to work through - Danny had to mature very quickly from his war experiences and was always going to struggle with relationships with people his own age out of the army. Whether or not they could have, is another issue. (I know Moffatt has said, but at the time, but Rupert Pink's conversation with Clara kind of struck me as being very ambigiously played and strikes me as a bit of a retcon) It's heavily hinted that Clara's heavy self-reliance and directness developed out of her Father struggling with her Mother's death and it's very telling that she stayed as long as she did with the Maitlands. Clara's missed a few steps and she's never really had a chance to figure herself or other people out. Traveling with The Doctor gave her the space to deal with that, with adventure, with someone who seemingly had no needs other then just having a good time. She's placed back in the caretaker role when hearing about the Time War, although Eleven takes steps for her not to become involved with him dealing with trauma and that it isn't her burden to bear, not wanting her to become another Amy and after The Name of The Doctor, there's a sense that Eleven restablishes those barriers for Clara to get on with her own life. This changes when The Doctor is forced to confront the Time War all over again and Clara get's to experience it's, where their dynamic changes and their lives have become more interwined and dependent on each other in The Time of The Doctor. And then....The Doctor changes. She sees him die and come back to life, reminding her of. Eleven pleads for her to stay, to help him and despite, she can't. Her friend is different, less curutous of her feelings, less gentle, and yet somehow, still her friend. And she's working, she's a role model, dealing with a Stepmother who doesn't like her - and it's a lot for her to deal with. She hasn't figured herself out, yet she's expected to be a role model for these kids and if you can, why not escape in time and space machine? Her friend is going to snap out of it one day, (regardless of what Vastra says) isn't he? Sometimes, he's just as he was underneath it all, and sometimes...not so much. While Eleven had a (albeit forced from bitter experience with Amy and Rory) sense of Clara's needs and barriers, Twelve clearly doesn't. At times, he expects and takes too much of her. And then Clara meets this guy. This sweet, gentle, dumb, smart guy. With silly smile. He's sensitive and kind, things The Doctor isn't exactly being at this point. There both stuck in school with the kids. And she's Clara, she's smart, funny and they've both gone through stuff, why wouldn't that be right for each other? For me, Danny always struck me as Clara's first serious relationship, something she wasn't prepared for and while she knew about his issues, she didn't have a sense enough of her own or her own person to reliase they weren't going to mesh well. Clara struck me someone who had some VERY romanticised ideas about relationships from her Father's remensinces about her Mother, as well. She wants to be a good teacher, she wants to travel in time and space and she wants the epic romance and she wants her friend to come back and she can't have it all. She needs to step back and figure herself out. It's not fair on herself or other people and she doesn't reliase that she can't or that all of these things aren't good for her or other people in her life. And while I can't blame her for not taking Danny outlining his expectations for their relationship at face value - there still getting to know each other at this point and she doesn't have a gauge for his trauma - I don't blame her for trying to knit two big parts of her life and I think any person without Danny's experiences would struggle to meet his expectations. That's not saying that Clara lying or manipulating Danny is anyway okay. It wasn't. It was selfish, although understandable. Danny deserved better then that, particularly with his experiences. Whether or not they could have moved past that, is another issue enterily. And I like the reverse gender dynamics between them - Danny's the guy in touch with his feelings and emotions. I can't blame Danny for not liking The Doctor. The Doctor is defined by the Time War, by being in command and it's a role we see him slip back into time and time again, however much he resents it. Danny doesn't know their history and when he does, it's kind of skewed by the events of The Caretaker. Danny knows Clara is impulsive, wild and reckless at times and also caring and it's not a surprise that he sees The Doctor as a danger to her. He respect that it's her and is trying not to be Dumb Bloke choice, but he also cautions her and lays out his own needs. And Danny ain't wrong about The Doctor, either. The Doctor's a mess and he's dragging Clara right into it. Could they have reconciled their differences for Clara? Maybe, maybe not. (I'd imagine Danny and Clara would need a break from each other to figure themselves out and I don't know if Danny would be comfortable ever around The Doctor) Danny's a sweet, deeply empathetic, nice in some ways simple guy in touch with his emotions and masculinity struggling with trauma who deserved better then Clara. (And I say that as a Clara fan!) But its completely the wrong character type for the show.
His physiologically damaged by the horrors of Real War, to the point where he has no enthusiasm for life at all. He attacks the Doctor verbally with very little provocation (there were no indications their 1st meeting would go like that!), fails to make a convening argument to Clara except in Forest where its suddenly better that kids burn trying to reach their parents rather then live as orphans.
The only lasting impression the character leaves is a social comment on PSTD, which doesn't work because he's played unsympathetically, and also leaves the audience questioning why the Doctor doesn't get involved in a Real War.
Regards
mark687
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Post by thethirddoctor on Apr 16, 2018 10:28:37 GMT
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I love Danny. And Samuel Anderson gave him a very natural sweet charm. I may have got emotional. I may have complained to people about being unable to find my own Danny Pink. A lot. He's a great counterpoint to both The Doctor and Clara. Unlike either of them, he's struggling, but he deals with his issues and channels them into productive outlets to help others. And his relationship with Clara is just so achingly sad, neither of them are on the same page and are trying to make it work. There's a huge chasm in terms of life experience and differences as people for both of them to work through - Danny had to mature very quickly from his war experiences and was always going to struggle with relationships with people his own age out of the army. Whether or not they could have, is another issue. (I know Moffatt has said, but at the time, but Rupert Pink's conversation with Clara kind of struck me as being very ambigiously played and strikes me as a bit of a retcon) It's heavily hinted that Clara's heavy self-reliance and directness developed out of her Father struggling with her Mother's death and it's very telling that she stayed as long as she did with the Maitlands. Clara's missed a few steps and she's never really had a chance to figure herself or other people out. Traveling with The Doctor gave her the space to deal with that, with adventure, with someone who seemingly had no needs other then just having a good time. She's placed back in the caretaker role when hearing about the Time War, although Eleven takes steps for her not to become involved with him dealing with trauma and that it isn't her burden to bear, not wanting her to become another Amy and after The Name of The Doctor, there's a sense that Eleven restablishes those barriers for Clara to get on with her own life. This changes when The Doctor is forced to confront the Time War all over again and Clara get's to experience it's, where their dynamic changes and their lives have become more interwined and dependent on each other in The Time of The Doctor. And then....The Doctor changes. She sees him die and come back to life, reminding her of. Eleven pleads for her to stay, to help him and despite, she can't. Her friend is different, less curutous of her feelings, less gentle, and yet somehow, still her friend. And she's working, she's a role model, dealing with a Stepmother who doesn't like her - and it's a lot for her to deal with. She hasn't figured herself out, yet she's expected to be a role model for these kids and if you can, why not escape in time and space machine? Her friend is going to snap out of it one day, (regardless of what Vastra says) isn't he? Sometimes, he's just as he was underneath it all, and sometimes...not so much. While Eleven had a (albeit forced from bitter experience with Amy and Rory) sense of Clara's needs and barriers, Twelve clearly doesn't. At times, he expects and takes too much of her. And then Clara meets this guy. This sweet, gentle, dumb, smart guy. With silly smile. He's sensitive and kind, things The Doctor isn't exactly being at this point. There both stuck in school with the kids. And she's Clara, she's smart, funny and they've both gone through stuff, why wouldn't that be right for each other? For me, Danny always struck me as Clara's first serious relationship, something she wasn't prepared for and while she knew about his issues, she didn't have a sense enough of her own or her own person to reliase they weren't going to mesh well. Clara struck me someone who had some VERY romanticised ideas about relationships from her Father's remensinces about her Mother, as well. She wants to be a good teacher, she wants to travel in time and space and she wants the epic romance and she wants her friend to come back and she can't have it all. She needs to step back and figure herself out. It's not fair on herself or other people and she doesn't reliase that she can't or that all of these things aren't good for her or other people in her life. And while I can't blame her for not taking Danny outlining his expectations for their relationship at face value - there still getting to know each other at this point and she doesn't have a gauge for his trauma - I don't blame her for trying to knit two big parts of her life and I think any person without Danny's experiences would struggle to meet his expectations. That's not saying that Clara lying or manipulating Danny is anyway okay. It wasn't. It was selfish, although understandable. Danny deserved better then that, particularly with his experiences. Whether or not they could have moved past that, is another issue enterily. And I like the reverse gender dynamics between them - Danny's the guy in touch with his feelings and emotions. I can't blame Danny for not liking The Doctor. The Doctor is defined by the Time War, by being in command and it's a role we see him slip back into time and time again, however much he resents it. Danny doesn't know their history and when he does, it's kind of skewed by the events of The Caretaker. Danny knows Clara is impulsive, wild and reckless at times and also caring and it's not a surprise that he sees The Doctor as a danger to her. He respect that it's her and is trying not to be Dumb Bloke choice, but he also cautions her and lays out his own needs. And Danny ain't wrong about The Doctor, either. The Doctor's a mess and he's dragging Clara right into it. Could they have reconciled their differences for Clara? Maybe, maybe not. (I'd imagine Danny and Clara would need a break from each other to figure themselves out and I don't know if Danny would be comfortable ever around The Doctor) Danny's a sweet, deeply empathetic, nice in some ways simple guy in touch with his emotions and masculinity struggling with trauma who deserved better then Clara. (And I say that as a Clara fan!) But its completely the wrong character type for the show.
His physiologically damaged by the horrors of Real War, to the point where he has no enthusiasm for life at all. He attacks the Doctor verbally with very little provocation (there were no indications their 1st meeting would go like that!), fails to make a convening argument to Clara except in Forest where its suddenly better that kids burn trying to reach their parents rather then live as orphans.
The only lasting impression the character leaves is a social comment on PSTD, which doesn't work because he's played unsympathetically, and also leaves the audience questioning why the Doctor doesn't get involved in a Real War.
Regards
mark687
I didn't watch many episodes from this series. But, surely, the 12th Doctor suffers PTSD, too! If it had been written properly, the Doctor would have felt empathy, and helped. The Doctor (and Danny) came across as arseholes towards each other. But, you're in a catch 22. Does the show take time to explain PTSD? Is this the type of show to take the time to explain? Should they have ignored PTSD? Do they give an announcement at the end of the credits with a phone number? (They may have, I don't know).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 10:50:42 GMT
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo! I love Danny. And Samuel Anderson gave him a very natural sweet charm. I may have got emotional. I may have complained to people about being unable to find my own Danny Pink. A lot. He's a great counterpoint to both The Doctor and Clara. Unlike either of them, he's struggling, but he deals with his issues and channels them into productive outlets to help others. And his relationship with Clara is just so achingly sad, neither of them are on the same page and are trying to make it work. There's a huge chasm in terms of life experience and differences as people for both of them to work through - Danny had to mature very quickly from his war experiences and was always going to struggle with relationships with people his own age out of the army. Whether or not they could have, is another issue. (I know Moffatt has said, but at the time, but Rupert Pink's conversation with Clara kind of struck me as being very ambigiously played and strikes me as a bit of a retcon) It's heavily hinted that Clara's heavy self-reliance and directness developed out of her Father struggling with her Mother's death and it's very telling that she stayed as long as she did with the Maitlands. Clara's missed a few steps and she's never really had a chance to figure herself or other people out. Traveling with The Doctor gave her the space to deal with that, with adventure, with someone who seemingly had no needs other then just having a good time. She's placed back in the caretaker role when hearing about the Time War, although Eleven takes steps for her not to become involved with him dealing with trauma and that it isn't her burden to bear, not wanting her to become another Amy and after The Name of The Doctor, there's a sense that Eleven restablishes those barriers for Clara to get on with her own life. This changes when The Doctor is forced to confront the Time War all over again and Clara get's to experience it's, where their dynamic changes and their lives have become more interwined and dependent on each other in The Time of The Doctor. And then....The Doctor changes. She sees him die and come back to life, reminding her of. Eleven pleads for her to stay, to help him and despite, she can't. Her friend is different, less curutous of her feelings, less gentle, and yet somehow, still her friend. And she's working, she's a role model, dealing with a Stepmother who doesn't like her - and it's a lot for her to deal with. She hasn't figured herself out, yet she's expected to be a role model for these kids and if you can, why not escape in time and space machine? Her friend is going to snap out of it one day, (regardless of what Vastra says) isn't he? Sometimes, he's just as he was underneath it all, and sometimes...not so much. While Eleven had a (albeit forced from bitter experience with Amy and Rory) sense of Clara's needs and barriers, Twelve clearly doesn't. At times, he expects and takes too much of her. And then Clara meets this guy. This sweet, gentle, dumb, smart guy. With silly smile. He's sensitive and kind, things The Doctor isn't exactly being at this point. There both stuck in school with the kids. And she's Clara, she's smart, funny and they've both gone through stuff, why wouldn't that be right for each other? For me, Danny always struck me as Clara's first serious relationship, something she wasn't prepared for and while she knew about his issues, she didn't have a sense enough of her own or her own person to reliase they weren't going to mesh well. Clara struck me someone who had some VERY romanticised ideas about relationships from her Father's remensinces about her Mother, as well. She wants to be a good teacher, she wants to travel in time and space and she wants the epic romance and she wants her friend to come back and she can't have it all. She needs to step back and figure herself out. It's not fair on herself or other people and she doesn't reliase that she can't or that all of these things aren't good for her or other people in her life. And while I can't blame her for not taking Danny outlining his expectations for their relationship at face value - there still getting to know each other at this point and she doesn't have a gauge for his trauma - I don't blame her for trying to knit two big parts of her life and I think any person without Danny's experiences would struggle to meet his expectations. That's not saying that Clara lying or manipulating Danny is anyway okay. It wasn't. It was selfish, although understandable. Danny deserved better then that, particularly with his experiences. Whether or not they could have moved past that, is another issue enterily. And I like the reverse gender dynamics between them - Danny's the guy in touch with his feelings and emotions. I can't blame Danny for not liking The Doctor. The Doctor is defined by the Time War, by being in command and it's a role we see him slip back into time and time again, however much he resents it. Danny doesn't know their history and when he does, it's kind of skewed by the events of The Caretaker. Danny knows Clara is impulsive, wild and reckless at times and also caring and it's not a surprise that he sees The Doctor as a danger to her. He respect that it's her and is trying not to be Dumb Bloke choice, but he also cautions her and lays out his own needs. And Danny ain't wrong about The Doctor, either. The Doctor's a mess and he's dragging Clara right into it. Could they have reconciled their differences for Clara? Maybe, maybe not. (I'd imagine Danny and Clara would need a break from each other to figure themselves out and I don't know if Danny would be comfortable ever around The Doctor) Danny's a sweet, deeply empathetic, nice in some ways simple guy in touch with his emotions and masculinity struggling with trauma who deserved better then Clara. (And I say that as a Clara fan!) But its completely the wrong character type for the show.
His physiologically damaged by the horrors of Real War, to the point where he has no enthusiasm for life at all. He attacks the Doctor verbally with very little provocation, fails to make a convening argument to Clara except in Forest where its suddenly better that kids burn trying to reach their parents rather then live as orphans.
The only lasting impression the character leaves is a social comment on PSTD, which doesn't work because he's played unsympathetically, and also leaves the audience questioning why the Doctor doesn't get involved in a Real War.
Regards
mark687
Disagree. If Who is going to relate to an audience, it needs to bring it in bring elements from the real world. I don't really see the issue in bringing in a soldier who fought in Afghasttan (regardless of the reasons sent) into Doctor Who. It's a slippery slope, does that mean sci-fi franchises can't have characters who fought in real world conflict? And if a veteran sees themselves represented in Who, as an actual person, particular like Danny, who is gentle, empathetic and kind, isn't that important? Look, I'm as left as they come, but if we start censoring ourselves like this, we won't have relevant stories. This is a franchise who has The Brigader, who fought in World War II and who The Doctor may or may not have talked to about the Time War. Who Sarah Jane probably talked to about The Doctor's war experiences. The leap has already been made. And The War Games already exists. I'm sorry, but have you seen that smile? How he's cheeky with the kids? How he jokes around with Clara? He took his trauma, his guilt and channelled into productive areas. Part of is Danny reassuring himself that he's a good person and part of it is defining himself away, to encourage kids to grow. To have opportunities he didn't have. I won't deny Danny doesn't have depression, but he fights agasint it and has a zest for his life. Yes, seeing Clara in danger put him on edge. But, he's a soldier and from his perspective, he's seen a very capable, very charmastic man putting a civilian into danger. He knows Clara is impulsive, wild and a little bit crazy, who despite being smart, doesn't always look before she leaps, who cares deeply for people. Who is also damaged and forced to grow up too soon like he is. And while a civilian would probably just want an explanation and be freaked out about the situation, seeing Clara in that position put him makes him relieve his trauma. I don't blame him for getting angry, particularly after getting a brief insight into their relationship. And The Doctor isn't exactly great here, either. This is Clara's co-worker, someone she knows, who is expressing concern for her in the situation and he childishly berates him. Anyone would be worried about Clara. I don't see how Danny outlining his needs and expectations isn't convicing. People do that when they enter relationships, albeit not quite as early as Danny does due to trauma. And do you expect him not to express concern that a charmastic potentially dangerous man who lives on the edge is putting her in these situations? Danny was a soldier who believed he fought for his country who just learnt that his entire country - and the world - was going to die. It's alluded to that his adoptive parents weren't great. Who has war trauma. I don't blame him for tempoairly going into a dark place. He get's out of it. I think Danny's played very sympathetically. He's a good teacher who stimulates his students and understands the more relucanct students, he's funny, dorky, gentle and caring. Clara likes him (and Clara is the audience surrogate), so we're expected to like him. We're given a very humanised, very grounded take on PTSD and war veterans, particularly of Afghanstan and Iraq. That question is NEVER going to be answered by this franchise.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 16, 2018 12:27:42 GMT
But its completely the wrong character type for the show.
His physiologically damaged by the horrors of Real War, to the point where he has no enthusiasm for life at all. He attacks the Doctor verbally with very little provocation, fails to make a convening argument to Clara except in Forest where its suddenly better that kids burn trying to reach their parents rather then live as orphans.
The only lasting impression the character leaves is a social comment on PSTD, which doesn't work because he's played unsympathetically, and also leaves the audience questioning why the Doctor doesn't get involved in a Real War.
Regards
mark687
Disagree. If Who is going to relate to an audience, it needs to bring it in bring elements from the real world. I don't really see the issue in bringing in a soldier who fought in Afghasttan (regardless of the reasons sent) into Doctor Who. It's a slippery slope, does that mean sci-fi franchises can't have characters who fought in real world conflict? And if a veteran sees themselves represented in Who, as an actual person, particular like Danny, who is gentle, empathetic and kind, isn't that important? Look, I'm as left as they come, but if we start censoring ourselves like this, we won't have relevant stories. This is a franchise who has The Brigader, who fought in World War II and who The Doctor may or may not have talked to about the Time War. Who Sarah Jane probably talked to about The Doctor's war experiences. The leap has already been made. And The War Games already exists. I'm sorry, but have you seen that smile? How he's cheeky with the kids? How he jokes around with Clara? He took his trauma, his guilt and channelled into productive areas. Part of is Danny reassuring himself that he's a good person and part of it is defining himself away, to encourage kids to grow. To have opportunities he didn't have. I won't deny Danny doesn't have depression, but he fights agasint it and has a zest for his life. Yes, seeing Clara in danger put him on edge. But, he's a soldier and from his perspective, he's seen a very capable, very charmastic man putting a civilian into danger. He knows Clara is impulsive, wild and a little bit crazy, who despite being smart, doesn't always look before she leaps, who cares deeply for people. Who is also damaged and forced to grow up too soon like he is. And while a civilian would probably just want an explanation and be freaked out about the situation, seeing Clara in that position put him makes him relieve his trauma. I don't blame him for getting angry, particularly after getting a brief insight into their relationship. And The Doctor isn't exactly great here, either. This is Clara's co-worker, someone she knows, who is expressing concern for her in the situation and he childishly berates him. Anyone would be worried about Clara. I don't see how Danny outlining his needs and expectations isn't convicing. People do that when they enter relationships, albeit not quite as early as Danny does due to trauma. And do you expect him not to express concern that a charmastic potentially dangerous man who lives on the edge is putting her in these situations? Danny was a soldier who believed he fought for his country who just learnt that his entire country - and the world - was going to die. It's alluded to that his adoptive parents weren't great. Who has war trauma. I don't blame him for tempoairly going into a dark place. He get's out of it. I think Danny's played very sympathetically. He's a good teacher who stimulates his students and understands the more relucanct students, he's funny, dorky, gentle and caring. Clara likes him (and Clara is the audience surrogate), so we're expected to like him. We're given a very humanised, very grounded take on PTSD and war veterans, particularly of Afghanstan and Iraq. That question is NEVER going to be answered by this franchise. I kind of admire your passionate defence but the show or the actor fails to articulate any of that at all well, its just "I've seen Real life hell, I'm falling for a girl who travels the universe I don't care about the universe I want solid and SHE should want solid and stable rather than the universe and her love will heal me".
The other problem is I don't think Clara wants a relationship in the 1st place or if she dose all on her terms, I think they both start it when they're in the wrong head space.
Regards
mark687
mark687
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 12:30:55 GMT
Disagree. If Who is going to relate to an audience, it needs to bring it in bring elements from the real world. I don't really see the issue in bringing in a soldier who fought in Afghasttan (regardless of the reasons sent) into Doctor Who. It's a slippery slope, does that mean sci-fi franchises can't have characters who fought in real world conflict? And if a veteran sees themselves represented in Who, as an actual person, particular like Danny, who is gentle, empathetic and kind, isn't that important? Look, I'm as left as they come, but if we start censoring ourselves like this, we won't have relevant stories. This is a franchise who has The Brigader, who fought in World War II and who The Doctor may or may not have talked to about the Time War. Who Sarah Jane probably talked to about The Doctor's war experiences. The leap has already been made. And The War Games already exists. I'm sorry, but have you seen that smile? How he's cheeky with the kids? How he jokes around with Clara? He took his trauma, his guilt and channelled into productive areas. Part of is Danny reassuring himself that he's a good person and part of it is defining himself away, to encourage kids to grow. To have opportunities he didn't have. I won't deny Danny doesn't have depression, but he fights agasint it and has a zest for his life. Yes, seeing Clara in danger put him on edge. But, he's a soldier and from his perspective, he's seen a very capable, very charmastic man putting a civilian into danger. He knows Clara is impulsive, wild and a little bit crazy, who despite being smart, doesn't always look before she leaps, who cares deeply for people. Who is also damaged and forced to grow up too soon like he is. And while a civilian would probably just want an explanation and be freaked out about the situation, seeing Clara in that position put him makes him relieve his trauma. I don't blame him for getting angry, particularly after getting a brief insight into their relationship. And The Doctor isn't exactly great here, either. This is Clara's co-worker, someone she knows, who is expressing concern for her in the situation and he childishly berates him. Anyone would be worried about Clara. I don't see how Danny outlining his needs and expectations isn't convicing. People do that when they enter relationships, albeit not quite as early as Danny does due to trauma. And do you expect him not to express concern that a charmastic potentially dangerous man who lives on the edge is putting her in these situations? Danny was a soldier who believed he fought for his country who just learnt that his entire country - and the world - was going to die. It's alluded to that his adoptive parents weren't great. Who has war trauma. I don't blame him for tempoairly going into a dark place. He get's out of it. I think Danny's played very sympathetically. He's a good teacher who stimulates his students and understands the more relucanct students, he's funny, dorky, gentle and caring. Clara likes him (and Clara is the audience surrogate), so we're expected to like him. We're given a very humanised, very grounded take on PTSD and war veterans, particularly of Afghanstan and Iraq. That question is NEVER going to be answered by this franchise. I kind of admire your admire your passionate defence but the show or the actor fails to articulate any of that at all well.
Regards
mark687
Eh, I disagree. I think it's handled very well in the show itself. Rewatch series eight, you might find yourself surprised Danny certiantly isn't as dour as you remember and Samuel Anderson gives a very natural performance (similar to Shredian Smith as Lucie Miller).
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Post by sherlock on Apr 16, 2018 12:46:13 GMT
Twelve and Bill and Nardole go on travelling together for at least two more seasons. You like Bill? Would you keep her ending? Being killed, turned to a Cyberman, and eventually becoming immortal? And, constantly reminding us she's a lesbian? I've seen a lot of comments online refer to this apparent constant mention of her sexuality so I counted all the times it comes up: 1. The Pilot: Her relationship with Heather 2. Knock Knock: Explains her sexuality to a housemate 3. Extremis: Her date with Penny 4. The Pyramid at the End of the World: Her date with Penny 5. The Eaters of Light: Explains her sexuality to a Roman soldier 6. The Doctor Falls: Mentions it when parting with the Doctor and Heather reappears 7. Twice Upon a Time: Mentions it when arguing with the first Doctor and the Captain So out of Bill's appearances in 13 episodes, her sexuality comes up in about half of them, usually very fleetingly. In my opinion that's not really constantly reminding us. I liked Bill and Nardole and would have happily seen them stay on for another series. But I suppose you should always leave your audience wanting more.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 16, 2018 12:49:19 GMT
I kind of admire your admire your passionate defence but the show or the actor fails to articulate any of that at all well.
Regards
mark687
Eh, I disagree. I think it's handled very well in the show itself. Rewatch series eight, you might find yourself surprised Danny certiantly isn't as dour as you remember and Samuel Anderson gives a very natural performance (similar to Shredian Smith as Lucie Miller). I HAVE 3 times and NO Way is he as good as Shredian. In fact you don't get that class of performance in a Moffatt Companion till Pearl as Bill!
Regards
mark687
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 12:51:20 GMT
Eh, I disagree. I think it's handled very well in the show itself. Rewatch series eight, you might find yourself surprised Danny certiantly isn't as dour as you remember and Samuel Anderson gives a very natural performance (similar to Shredian Smith as Lucie Miller). I HAVE 3 times and NO Way is he as good as Shredian. In fact you don't get that class of performance in a Moffatt Companion till Pearl as Bill!
Regards
mark687
Nope, I respectfully disagree. Samauel Anderson is great.
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