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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 8:23:07 GMT
Honestly? With the stars aligning and space-time at its zenith, I'd say... starting at Series 10 and continuing on hence. The Doctor, his companions, the stories they were trying to tell, it all clicked there. All the strengths of the past two series with few of their weaknesses. I'd only say the Monk trilogy really hurts it, they suffer from being just bland ciphers. Made all the worse by the fact that the threat they pose requires the show to forget all about UNIT or any other international organisation (Interpol, for instance) in order to make it credible.
TL;DR (much picture, very big)But if we're looking more at improving the preexisting framework... Let's start with Series 8. First off, we don't need Eleven telling Clara to come back, she should make that decision on her own. Ignoring the fact that it completely dismisses The Name of the Doctor, t doesn't matter if he's not Eleven anymore. He's still a person, after a very traumatic change, who needs a friend. Junk all that "not your boyfriend" stuff as well, which comes out of nowhere. Odd that. The nature of their conflict shouldn't be that she had the hots for him, but that her friend has for all intents and purposes just been killed before her eyes. In fact, let's do an arc about Clara learning to trust again, make that a part of her character. Her flippancy and standoffishness should be addressed as a character trait, one we can actually play with. To quote another really good show: Which leads me to Danny Pink. Pink is deeply problematic. His PTSD gets dropped into the show as an integral part of his character, but it's handled in a really alienating fashion (this continues from a similar problem with The Day of the Doctor). It's a gimmick and it really shouldn't be. It turns a real-life medical condition into a gag. Bring Danny onboard the TARDIS and forget contemporary Earth entirely. Have it be part of the Doctor finding Gallifrey, putting us face-to-face with traumas that can't be magicked away. Tie that into the whole idea of the Doctor "fixing" Gallifrey (which should raise some eyebrows). Now this whole set-up -- the inarticulate Doctor, distrusting Clara and healing Danny -- reeks of meaningful conflict that will attend to itself. Their scars are part of who they are and something they can draw strength from, not something they should suppress. Good lessons for the kids. After a season without Earth's Moon being an egg and everything which was In the Forest of the Night, we hit Dark Water. Danny, who's hit a breakthrough thanks to the Doctor, is killed by a mindless accident of all things. Things proceed as normal (minus the Cyber-Brig) and the Doctor takes Missy to imprison her aboard the TARDIS en route to Gallifrey. They're going to have a long chat about what to do from hereinafter. Particularly after the lie. Of course, she escapes, the Doctor tries to track her down and we get The Magician's Apprentice. Clara's still on Earth, taking a breather, returning to day-to-day life and not coping. Series 9 rolls in pretty much as writ until The Zygon Invasion. Everything Clara's trying to do to cope isn't working and she falls in with Truth or Consequences. There's no duplicate Bonnie here, it's just Clara -- our Clara, who we've grown to care about over the past year-and-a-half -- and the Doctor trying to save her from herself. Aside from being a complex story involving the World Health Organisation and riffing on genuine UNICEF efforts, it also shows how disaffected people get suckered into these kinds of causes. Even those with the best of intentions, especially those hurting as badly as Clara, can make this mistake. In the grief cycle, maybe she's still at anger. The world will feel how I feel, etc. The Doctor demonstrates that he knows how she feels. His sudden bout of softness (Doctor Disco, etc.) was his way of showing that this whole thing hit him just as hard in a different way. But then, Face the Raven occurs and Clara dies. The Doctor is trapped in the confession dial, he escapes and that's the end of the season. No Hell Bent. We don't need to see all of Gallifrey (a Skaro-like nightmare here). We only know the Doctor's arrived and that change is on the horizon. Next time we see him, he's absconded to Mendorax Dellora with something on his mind. Maybe he was offered a way back in -- a seat on the High Council or something -- and declined because someone needed to keep an eye out in the normal universe. He's very edgy when Gallifrey is mentioned. Things are happening at home and he's not liking it. Then Series 10. Boom. Time returns to its original course, barring one thing. The Doctor Falls is his last hurrah. If he's been dying throughout all this story, have the First Doctor appear in a cameo towards the end. He's been chatting with his past selves in a delirium, each coming through in turn like the end of I, Claudius. We don't see them, but they've all been saying their bit and leaving him unimpressed. His first incarnation turns up and reminds him why he's out here in the first place. It's the adventure and the discovery. Discovering the "Why?" of the cosmos. Has he found it? No. Then, another must take his place. And so, on to Jodie Whitaker. I love a lot of this, even though I don't quite agree with all of it. I don't think Clara would ever join Truth or Consequences. Even lost in grief and clearly not okay, she still tried to help people in productive ways. Clara's been pushed into the role of caretaker from an early age and it's a role accepts with her Father, the Maitlands, Eleven, leading to her job and Twelve. It's her baseline which leads to her problems in Series 9. Clara might be blunt and direct sometimes because of this, but fundmentally, she cares about other people and puts their needs above her own, which has lead to at times struggling with herher own needs or wants, leading to her directness and blutness at times. She was pirortising her pupils education over own grief by trying to be 'hip' woke teacher in in trying to get her students to engage in The Magician's Appretience (bisexuality is real, guys and kind of cringeworthy in trying to get some of her male students attention) (not great , but still clearly trying to pirortise her kids) , kept a clear head to help UNIT and outplayed Missy, reined in The Doctor and helped the survey team in Under The Lake/Before The Flood, pushed back agasint Bonnie, etc, etc. There's no way she'd risk the lives of children or families or be part of Truth or Consequences agenda. Push forward their cause with Kate in The Doctor's absence and try to talk her down? Yes. But, I can't ever see Clara becoming a terroist. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 9:03:46 GMT
Edited to my post to elaborate on some points.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 10:30:44 GMT
I love a lot of this, even though I don't quite agree with all of it. I don't think Clara would ever join Truth or Consequences. Even lost in grief and clearly not okay, she still tried to help people in productive ways. Clara's been pushed into the role of caretaker from an early age and it's a role accepts with her Father, the Maitlands, Eleven, leading to her job and Twelve. It's her baseline which leads to her problems in Series 9. Clara might be blunt and direct sometimes because of this, but fundmentally, she cares about other people and puts their needs above her own, which has lead to at times struggling with herher own needs or wants, leading to her directness and blutness at times. She was pirortising her pupils education over own grief by trying to be 'hip' woke teacher in in trying to get her students to engage in The Magician's Appretience (bisexuality is real, guys and kind of cringeworthy in trying to get some of her male students attention) (not great , but still clearly trying to pirortise her kids) , kept a clear head to help UNIT and outplayed Missy, reined in The Doctor and helped the survey team in Under The Lake/Before The Flood, pushed back agasint Bonnie, etc, etc. There's no way she'd risk the lives of children or families or be part of Truth or Consequences agenda. Push forward their cause with Kate in The Doctor's absence and try to talk her down? Yes. But, I can't ever see Clara becoming a terroist. Glad you like it. Well, most of it. I was leaning more towards something like Mike Yates in Invasion of the Dinosaurs. Terrorism and activism in general is a profoundly complex issue, one which I can't really get into without writing a volume. Going with the full allegory was going to create problems in this story no matter what happened. There's no such thing as a straight line between good and evil on this sort of thing. Particularly when you get into disaffected and alienated individuals who sign up for activism and end up in organisations that promote terrorism. One common issue is that a lot of people get recruited into these more extremist organisations under false pretences or more often, it begins as one thing and becomes another. Truth or Consequences, in this case, would seem like Clara supporting an activist organisation attempting to free a minority under the thumb of the military. After all, the Zygons are fighting against assimilation, their mission is to be allowed to live as themselves. It's about acquiring a basic right of freedom. In other words, it's a human rights issue. And maybe it starts out benignly with the best of intentions: Clara trying to ruin UNIT's secrecy, fostering a way for the Zygons to live as Zygons -- and then everything falling apart around their ears due to extremism on both sides. If we're still going for the full allegory, it would be way more grey than what we saw. There'd be no scene with her shooting down the Doctor, for instance. It would be her confronting her cohorts and discovering she was an unwitting accessory to a series of murders. Maybe even murders committed in a moment of panic which some Zygons feel remorse over. So, she spends the rest of the story on damage control, trying to keep their organisation on the straight and narrow. We'd still get the speech at the end about the Doctor not understanding, but it'd be more about the ideals the movement represents, rather than the reality. Some very serious consequences need to be addressed with the truth. And the truth is that the message both sides were trying to send out has been swallowed up in the violence. It's all gone too far. So that Nightmare Scenario scene becomes thus: everyone started out with the best of intentions (UNIT and Zygons alike), it did not work out that way and now we have to make a decision -- do we double down or admit that we were wrong? And that's not an easy decision for either side to make, to acknowledge the other side's ideals and admit fault in themselves. Particularly when people have died over it, but they must. It's the only way that any headway can be made. It would be an excruciating negotiation process, but at least this way, they've established a dialogue. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 10:51:57 GMT
I love a lot of this, even though I don't quite agree with all of it. I don't think Clara would ever join Truth or Consequences. Even lost in grief and clearly not okay, she still tried to help people in productive ways. Clara's been pushed into the role of caretaker from an early age and it's a role accepts with her Father, the Maitlands, Eleven, leading to her job and Twelve. It's her baseline which leads to her problems in Series 9. Clara might be blunt and direct sometimes because of this, but fundmentally, she cares about other people and puts their needs above her own, which has lead to at times struggling with herher own needs or wants, leading to her directness and blutness at times. She was pirortising her pupils education over own grief by trying to be 'hip' woke teacher in in trying to get her students to engage in The Magician's Appretience (bisexuality is real, guys and kind of cringeworthy in trying to get some of her male students attention) (not great , but still clearly trying to pirortise her kids) , kept a clear head to help UNIT and outplayed Missy, reined in The Doctor and helped the survey team in Under The Lake/Before The Flood, pushed back agasint Bonnie, etc, etc. There's no way she'd risk the lives of children or families or be part of Truth or Consequences agenda. Push forward their cause with Kate in The Doctor's absence and try to talk her down? Yes. But, I can't ever see Clara becoming a terroist. Glad you like it. Well, most of it. I was leaning more towards something like Mike Yates in Invasion of the Dinosaurs. Terrorism and activism in general is a profoundly complex issue, one which I can't really get into without writing a volume. Going with the full allegory was going to create problems in this story no matter what happened. There's no such thing as a straight line between good and evil on this sort of thing. Particularly when you get into disaffected and alienated individuals who sign up for activism and end up in organisations that promote terrorism. One common issue is that a lot of people get recruited into these more extremist organisations under false pretences or more often, it begins as one thing and becomes another. Truth or Consequences, in this case, would seem like Clara supporting an activist organisation attempting to free a minority under the thumb of the military. After all, their mission is to be allowed to live as themselves, the Zygons are actually fighting against assimilation. It's about acquiring a basic right of freedom. In other words, it's a human rights issue. And maybe it starts out with the best of intentions: Clara trying to ruin UNIT's secrecy, fostering a way for the Zygons to live as Zygons -- and then everything falling apart around their ears due to extremism on both sides. If we're still going for the full allegory, it would be way more grey than what we saw. There'd be no scene with her shooting down the Doctor, for instance. It would be her confronting her cohorts and discovering she was an unwitting accessory to a series of murders. Maybe even murders committed in a moment of panic which some Zygons feel remorse over. So, she spends the rest of the story on damage control, trying to keep their organisation on the straight and narrow. We'd still get the speech at the end about the Doctor not understanding, but it'd be more about the ideals the movement represents, rather than the reality. Some very serious consequences need to be addressed with the truth. And the truth is that the message both sides were trying to send out has been swallowed up in the violence. It's all gone too far. So that Nightmare Scenario scene becomes thus: everyone started out with the best of intentions (UNIT and Zygons alike), it did not work out that way and now we have to make a decision -- do we double down or admit that we were wrong? And that's not an easy decision for either side to make, to acknowledge the other side's ideals and admit fault in themselves. Particularly when people have died over it, but they must. It's the only way that any headway can be made. It would be an excruciating negotiation process, but at least this way, they've established a dialogue. I think the problem I have is Clara is shown to be too objective. She's thinks of what's best for everyone, a hallmark of her childhood and we see this at play in her relationship with The Doctor, with, with her students. She's not always right (we've seen that on display many a time), that's a product of her childhood too, but she uses her intelligience to try and figure out the best solution for people. Grief or not, she'd see it wouldn't be a means to end, that it wouldn't work out for the Zygons. She's seen too many people lost. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 11:04:53 GMT
I think the problem I have is Clara is shown to be too objective. She's thinks of what's best for everyone, a hallmark of her childhood and we see this at play in her relationship with The Doctor, with, with her students. She's not always right (we've seen that on display many a time), that's a product of her childhood too, but she uses her intelligience to try and figure out the best solution for people. Grief or not, she'd see it wouldn't be a means to end, that it wouldn't work out for the Zygons. She's seen too many people lost. Hmm... Okay. I'd need a different fulcrum point for her transition to Face the Raven, though. Something that triggers that final leg of self-destructive behaviour we see from her there and shows that Pink's death has affected the Doctor in some degree as well (after all, in this rewrite he's just lost a fulltime companion and is about to lose another). Nothing else really fits, so logically, there'd be another story squeezed in there somewhere as well. The straw that broke the camel's back. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 11:06:11 GMT
Glad you like it. Well, most of it. I was leaning more towards something like Mike Yates in Invasion of the Dinosaurs. Terrorism and activism in general is a profoundly complex issue, one which I can't really get into without writing a volume. Going with the full allegory was going to create problems in this story no matter what happened. There's no such thing as a straight line between good and evil on this sort of thing. Particularly when you get into disaffected and alienated individuals who sign up for activism and end up in organisations that promote terrorism. One common issue is that a lot of people get recruited into these more extremist organisations under false pretences or more often, it begins as one thing and becomes another. Truth or Consequences, in this case, would seem like Clara supporting an activist organisation attempting to free a minority under the thumb of the military. After all, their mission is to be allowed to live as themselves, the Zygons are actually fighting against assimilation. It's about acquiring a basic right of freedom. In other words, it's a human rights issue. And maybe it starts out with the best of intentions: Clara trying to ruin UNIT's secrecy, fostering a way for the Zygons to live as Zygons -- and then everything falling apart around their ears due to extremism on both sides. If we're still going for the full allegory, it would be way more grey than what we saw. There'd be no scene with her shooting down the Doctor, for instance. It would be her confronting her cohorts and discovering she was an unwitting accessory to a series of murders. Maybe even murders committed in a moment of panic which some Zygons feel remorse over. So, she spends the rest of the story on damage control, trying to keep their organisation on the straight and narrow. We'd still get the speech at the end about the Doctor not understanding, but it'd be more about the ideals the movement represents, rather than the reality. Some very serious consequences need to be addressed with the truth. And the truth is that the message both sides were trying to send out has been swallowed up in the violence. It's all gone too far. So that Nightmare Scenario scene becomes thus: everyone started out with the best of intentions (UNIT and Zygons alike), it did not work out that way and now we have to make a decision -- do we double down or admit that we were wrong? And that's not an easy decision for either side to make, to acknowledge the other side's ideals and admit fault in themselves. Particularly when people have died over it, but they must. It's the only way that any headway can be made. It would be an excruciating negotiation process, but at least this way, they've established a dialogue. I think the problem I have is Clara is shown to be too objective. She's thinks of what's best for everyone, a hallmark of her childhood and we see this at play in her relationship with The Doctor, with, with her students. She's not always right (we've seen that on display many a time), that's a product of her childhood too, but she uses her intelligience to try and figure out the best solution for people. Grief or not, she'd see it wouldn't be a means to end, that it wouldn't work out for the Zygons. She's seen too many people lost. I think this kind of relates to a conversation we had about Clara's actions in Dark Water, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back and you probably don't remember. I've been lucky enough never to have lost anyone suddenly, but I've known people who have and seen that grief. And it's raw, that loss and for me, Dark Water, hits upon that primal grief, of wanting to change things, to deny that moment, a dark temptation that would lure in anyone's heart if the Doctor Who universe was real. For me, that what gives Dark Water it's power, that it's the Doctor Who universe tapping into something real. As I've said before, Clara's a mess in series eight. She hasn't had the space to sort of find herself as her own person, she's trying to be there for her friend, she wants a relationship she isn't prepared for, she's dealing with being a role model and starting her working life, transitioning into proper adulthood and she uses the TARDIS to escape all that, but still saddled to The Doctor. I know a lot of people find Clara's actions in Dark Water really uncomfortable and arrogant, but when you see someone in that grief, it's overpowering and scary. She's lost in grief and she's been supporting The Doctor the whole time and she's been trying to escape and deal with her issues through the TARDIS and it manifiests in the most horrifying, but also real way. And that's not to say Clara isn't arrogant or isn't flawed sometimes, because she is or shouldn't be held accountable for her actions, but it comes from a real primal place. That's my opinion, anyway  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 11:19:25 GMT
I think the problem I have is Clara is shown to be too objective. She's thinks of what's best for everyone, a hallmark of her childhood and we see this at play in her relationship with The Doctor, with, with her students. She's not always right (we've seen that on display many a time), that's a product of her childhood too, but she uses her intelligience to try and figure out the best solution for people. Grief or not, she'd see it wouldn't be a means to end, that it wouldn't work out for the Zygons. She's seen too many people lost. Hmm... Okay. I'd need a different fulcrum point for her transition to Face the Raven, though. Something that triggers that final leg of self-destructive behaviour we see from her there and shows that Pink's death has affected the Doctor in some degree as well (after all, in this rewrite he's just lost a fulltime companion and is about to lose another). Nothing else really fits, so logically, there'd be another story squeezed in there somewhere as well. The straw that broke the camel's back. The simple act of living after can kick you in the teeth, though, particularly in the farmaliar. I don't think you have to change much, in that regard. Clara closing herself off from others and escaping her issues and trying to be herself in the TARDIS. |
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Post by Timelord007 on Apr 18, 2018 11:35:46 GMT
Less Clara, should've had a definitive ending, no Danny Pink who had the charisma of a wet lettuce, no Missy, the whole of Series 9 & the Doctor regenerates into actor Damien Maloney at the end of Twice Upon A Time.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 12:01:51 GMT
Less Clara, should've had a definitive ending, no Danny Pink who had the charisma of a wet lettuce, no Missy, the whole of Series 9 & the Doctor regenerates into actor Damien Maloney at the end of Twice Upon A Time. But you'd keep Kill The Moon!and Sleep No More? |
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Post by bohnny on Apr 18, 2018 12:18:19 GMT
Nothing.
It's the imperfections as much as the transcendent that makes Dr Who what it is. And what I didn't like would be gold to someone else; so why do I have the right ....?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 12:21:08 GMT
Less Clara, should've had a definitive ending, no Danny Pink who had the charisma of a wet lettuce, no Missy, the whole of Series 9 & the Doctor regenerates into actor Damien Maloney at the end of Twice Upon A Time. But you'd keep Kill The Moon!and Sleep No More? I think Sleep No More was a good idea - a found footage Doctor Who story? Terrific! - just very, very dull. Kill the Moon though, really seems to have gained the reputation as a dud. I quite liked it, if I'm honest. It looked great, gave a nice moral dilemma for Clara and the moon is an egg? Surely that's no more ridiculous than, I don't know, psychic paper and a time machine that's bigger on the inside. That's a great post. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 12:55:22 GMT
But you'd keep Kill The Moon!and Sleep No More? I think Sleep No More was a good idea - a found footage Doctor Who story? Terrific! - just very, very dull. While I like the idea of a found footage Doctor Who story in concept, especially with Twelve and Clara, you can't really do it for a family audience (not that's there's anything wrong with a family audience) and you have to compromise (as the episode did) and at the end of the day, you have to question why they went through with it. Mind you, The Sandmen didn't help.... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 13:17:36 GMT
I think Sleep No More was a good idea - a found footage Doctor Who story? Terrific! - just very, very dull. While I like the idea of a found footage Doctor Who story in concept, especially with Twelve and Clara, you can't really do it for a family audience (not that's there's anything wrong with a family audience) and you have to compromise (as the episode did) and at the end of the day, you have to question why they went through with it. Mind you, The Sandmen didn't help.... I'm a big fan of the found footage genre, but realise it has its detractors. Personally, I think they could have done a really good, scary story without compromising the family audience, but the story itself was at fault (saved to some extent by Reece Shearsmith's performance). Moments of silence with 'something' emerging from the corner of the room, focus on the characters' reactions to what they are seeing ... these things, I think, would have improved it. There's a long scene in a found footage film called Willow's Creek, in which the two titular characters are hiding in their tent, listening and reacting to the sounds of ... 'something outside' getting closer. It is spell-binding and couldn't have been executed as well in any other format. It's terrifying! I was hoping for more of that approach for Sleep No More. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 14:00:16 GMT
While I like the idea of a found footage Doctor Who story in concept, especially with Twelve and Clara, you can't really do it for a family audience (not that's there's anything wrong with a family audience) and you have to compromise (as the episode did) and at the end of the day, you have to question why they went through with it. Mind you, The Sandmen didn't help.... I'm a big fan of the found footage genre, but realise it has its detractors. Personally, I think they could have done a really good, scary story without compromising the family audience, but the story itself was at fault (saved to some extent by Reece Shearsmith's performance). Moments of silence with 'something' emerging from the corner of the room, focus on the characters' reactions to what they are seeing ... these things, I think, would have improved it. There's a long scene in a found footage film called Willow's Creek, in which the two titular characters are hiding in their tent, listening and reacting to the sounds of ... 'something outside' getting closer. It is spell-binding and couldn't have been executed as well in any other format. It's terrifying! I was hoping for more of that approach for Sleep No More. It got overused I'm a big fan of both The Blair Witch Project and the first Paranormal Activity. But, I just don't think it can be done for a family Doctor Who audience - the beats hit too hard and I'm not sure if many kids would enjoy it, regardless given the pacing and style. I don't think you can really bring that to a family audience. It's intresting in concept and something I'd actually would have loved Big Finish to try during The Wilderness Years ( Live 34 is sort of similar, but really just is a Doctor Who story in another format, particularly with the performances, although I wonder if the plan was to make more found footage-esuqe originally before the revival started.) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 15:47:26 GMT
But you'd keep Kill The Moon!and Sleep No More? though, really seems to have gained the reputation as a dud. I quite liked it, if I'm honest. It looked great, gave a nice moral dilemma for Clara and the moon is an egg? Surely that's no more ridiculous than, I don't know, psychic paper and a time machine that's bigger on the inside. Eh, both are advanced pieces of pieces of technology, the latter from a mysterious advanced alien race. I'm okay with Who having a sense of it's own ridicliousness at times, it's one of it's defining charms, but the moon as an egg is just silly from what we know about it. |
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Post by thethirddoctor on Apr 18, 2018 16:46:59 GMT
While I grant that there are some who enjoy the constant returning home for dinner with family, there also seems to be a fair number who honestly can't stand that nonsense.
Admittedly the sample size we are both citing is small as it is largely from this forum, though I'm sure that out in the real world everyone here knows people who support either of the positions we've raised.
Eh, I wouldn't call it 'nonsense' I love the expansion of the companion and to me it enriches the journey into the unknown and raises the stake. Television had moved on and the original Doctor/companion dynamic wouldn't be accepted on television nowadays, anyway for many reasons. And given how tarnished Who's reputation had unfairly become, it NEEDED to be relatable to a modern audience. British science fiction television wasn't a thing. If it's just about a madman from space who travels in time, it's fairly nieche and not Doctor Who at all. Doctor Who wasn't just another sci-fi series, it was an institution. It was part of people's childhoods and having the ordinary person involved was a HUGE part of that, for getting kids and the grownups into time and space. The Doctor's great, we love him, but it's the companion that makes the series work: that establishes it's stakes, it's edge, it's danger, the lure of the unknown. Without that, Doctor Who isn't Doctor Who, it's just another sci-fi series. But the approach had to be different for a modern audience. Having a very clever man rule over the companion wouldn't play well, especially given the history of the series and the existing dynamic would be seen as archaric and ready bad press. The companion had to be important, to be crucial to the narrative, have equal dramatic weight to The Doctor and be someone the audience could get invested in and they needed a life around them. To have an existence to showcase what happens when the TARDIS doors open. To make the painted aliens and pepper pots paltable to the wider audience. And it's not really all that different to Sydney Newman and Verity Lambert's initial approach to lure in viewers, either. 1 - I see what you mean, but if the TARDIS can be controlled, then there is no unknown, because one knows where one is going. 2 - Where is the evidence? All the companions are the same. Would have been nice if one of the Showrunners had given us a "classic" companion. 3 - Where is the unfairness? 4 - Only been a madman since the show returned. So, you are correct - not Doctor Who, at all. 5 - Yes. Companions do make the series work. They are usually the Doctors conscience. 6 - Why does it have to be different? 7 - No. The companions makes the show work, but they don't have to be important. |
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 18, 2018 19:55:55 GMT
Eh, I wouldn't call it 'nonsense' I love the expansion of the companion and to me it enriches the journey into the unknown and raises the stake. Television had moved on and the original Doctor/companion dynamic wouldn't be accepted on television nowadays, anyway for many reasons. And given how tarnished Who's reputation had unfairly become, it NEEDED to be relatable to a modern audience. British science fiction television wasn't a thing. If it's just about a madman from space who travels in time, it's fairly nieche and not Doctor Who at all. Doctor Who wasn't just another sci-fi series, it was an institution. It was part of people's childhoods and having the ordinary person involved was a HUGE part of that, for getting kids and the grownups into time and space. The Doctor's great, we love him, but it's the companion that makes the series work: that establishes it's stakes, it's edge, it's danger, the lure of the unknown. Without that, Doctor Who isn't Doctor Who, it's just another sci-fi series. But the approach had to be different for a modern audience. Having a very clever man rule over the companion wouldn't play well, especially given the history of the series and the existing dynamic would be seen as archaric and ready bad press. The companion had to be important, to be crucial to the narrative, have equal dramatic weight to The Doctor and be someone the audience could get invested in and they needed a life around them. To have an existence to showcase what happens when the TARDIS doors open. To make the painted aliens and pepper pots paltable to the wider audience. And it's not really all that different to Sydney Newman and Verity Lambert's initial approach to lure in viewers, either. 1 - I see what you mean, but if the TARDIS can be controlled, then there is no unknown, because one knows where one is going. 2 - Where is the evidence? All the companions are the same. Would have been nice if one of the Showrunners had given us a "classic" companion. 3 - Where is the unfairness? 4 - Only been a madman since the show returned. So, you are correct - not Doctor Who, at all. 5 - Yes. Companions do make the series work. They are usually the Doctors conscience. 6 - Why does it have to be different? 7 - No. The companions makes the show work, but they don't have to be important. I feel like we've done countless threads that challenge almost all your points (with the exception of 5, which I'll concede). 1. Not necessarily. Reading a map and knowing a world/culture, much less know they exist at all, are different things. The Doctor has never known everything, old or Nu. 2. cite Victorian Clara. The showrunner is not all powerful, and if Papa BBC and department heads say no, it means NO. 3. Because hacky jokes about rubber costumes, wobbly sets and miniskirts that refused to die. Plus a failed reboot in the 90s, and the BBC themselves commiting very public character assassination to the show in the mid-late 80s. 4. So, 2, 4 and 6 don't exist according to you? I'd love to see you argue how 4 doesn't meet the criteria of 'madman'. 6. Times change. Please see any thread on the TV Movie, the last years of old Who, or why Russell's return was a big hit. 7. Says who? In fact, your own 5. point negates this by giving them a very important role. And also, Susan, Sarah Jane and Ace. |
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Post by thethirddoctor on Apr 18, 2018 21:07:25 GMT
1 - I see what you mean, but if the TARDIS can be controlled, then there is no unknown, because one knows where one is going. 2 - Where is the evidence? All the companions are the same. Would have been nice if one of the Showrunners had given us a "classic" companion. 3 - Where is the unfairness? 4 - Only been a madman since the show returned. So, you are correct - not Doctor Who, at all. 5 - Yes. Companions do make the series work. They are usually the Doctors conscience. 6 - Why does it have to be different? 7 - No. The companions makes the show work, but they don't have to be important. I feel like we've done countless threads that challenge almost all your points (with the exception of 5, which I'll concede). 1. Not necessarily. Reading a map and knowing a world/culture, much less know they exist at all, are different things. The Doctor has never known everything, old or Nu. 2. cite Victorian Clara. The showrunner is not all powerful, and if Papa BBC and department heads say no, it means NO. 3. Because hacky jokes about rubber costumes, wobbly sets and miniskirts that refused to die. Plus a failed reboot in the 90s, and the BBC themselves commiting very public character assassination to the show in the mid-late 80s. 4. So, 2, 4 and 6 don't exist according to you? I'd love to see you argue how 4 doesn't meet the criteria of 'madman'. 6. Times change. Please see any thread on the TV Movie, the last years of old Who, or why Russell's return was a big hit. 7. Says who? In fact, your own 5. point negates this by giving them a very important role. And also, Susan, Sarah Jane and Ace. 1 - I'll give you that. But, I prefer a TARDIS that doesn't work. 2 - Still would have been nice to have had a companion that was different. 3 - I see your point about the budget, but the BBC was never in love with the show. I, personally, don't know how much input the BBC had with the tv movie. I take it you're referring to the cancellation in the 80's. True, would have been better to give it some love, instead of cancelling it. 4 - They are eccentric, not mad. But, Eccentric man in a box doesn't have the same ring to it. 6 - Again, a bit of love would have been a huge help. RTD did show the Execs City of Death as an example of what the show would look like. Shame it didn't look anything like City of Death. 6 - I really meant to say "in the great scheme of thing" the companion isn't important. Sure, they are important to the story, and relationship to the Doctor. They just don't have to be special. They shouldn't need have a story arc. They have a friendship, the companion develops, then leaves. The Doctor doesn't need to mourn every companion. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 21:15:18 GMT
I think the problem I have is Clara is shown to be too objective. She's thinks of what's best for everyone, a hallmark of her childhood and we see this at play in her relationship with The Doctor, with, with her students. She's not always right (we've seen that on display many a time), that's a product of her childhood too, but she uses her intelligience to try and figure out the best solution for people. Grief or not, she'd see it wouldn't be a means to end, that it wouldn't work out for the Zygons. She's seen too many people lost. Hmm... Okay. I'd need a different fulcrum point for her transition to Face the Raven, though. Something that triggers that final leg of self-destructive behaviour we see from her there and shows that Pink's death has affected the Doctor in some degree as well (after all, in this rewrite he's just lost a fulltime companion and is about to lose another). Nothing else really fits, so logically, there'd be another story squeezed in there somewhere as well. The straw that broke the camel's back. Oh God, you agree with me. Sorry!  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 22:16:24 GMT
Hmm... Okay. I'd need a different fulcrum point for her transition to Face the Raven, though. Something that triggers that final leg of self-destructive behaviour we see from her there and shows that Pink's death has affected the Doctor in some degree as well (after all, in this rewrite he's just lost a fulltime companion and is about to lose another). Nothing else really fits, so logically, there'd be another story squeezed in there somewhere as well. The straw that broke the camel's back. Oh God, you agree with me. Sorry! I've never had that reaction before on a forum.  It's fine, really!  Have you considered writing for Eleven/Clara or Twelve/Clara? You seem to have your thumb on the character's pulse, it'd be interesting what stories you could tell with her. |
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It's fine, really! 
Have you considered writing for Eleven/Clara or Twelve/Clara? You seem to have your thumb on the character's pulse, it'd be interesting what stories you could tell with her.