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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 2, 2020 1:01:22 GMT
Space Jesus? Oh, no, the Doctor is BRIAN!! Brian, people! Don't go all Muggeridge on me now.
And as for BF and Who? All perfectly seamless (cough). Brax at one time was Lord Burner and chose not to carry out a task. Was that a position held by a Division member?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 1:03:49 GMT
After having watched this with my sister and us discussing how much we'd enjoyed the way all this turned out, I have to say I'm somewhat surprised and a little disappointed this hasn't gone down too well. As someone who is kind of against changing established continuity "just because", I was extremely worried about where this story was going to go and, ultimately, this story doesn't actually change anything. We've always known the story from chapter one, also known as An Unearthly Child, and we've had a bit of chapter zero filled in via exposition; all The Timeless Children added was a proper prologue. And the best part? You can actively ignore it and it changes absolutely nothing! So what if there were Doctors before Hartnell? Does it actually affect the incarnation of the Doctor we know, from Hartnell to Whittaker? Not at all. This "change" genuinely changes nothing to the ongoing adventures of the First Doctor through to the Thirteenth, and that's why I love it so much. Maybe they'll expand on all this stuff in future series but I'd be just fine with everything being left as it is. The Doctor that "matters", the Doctor that "counts", starts with when young Hartnell was brought into the world, be that by birth, loom, or regression into a child. All we have to do know it go forward with "our" version of the character and everything's just as it always was.As for The Timeless Children itself I'll agree it was a bit messy. It was quite slow (though I wouldn't say it was boring), but that gave the story the necessary time to breathe and get all the important moments across without rushing through things. I can't imagine how incoherent this would have been at the standard 50 minutes. The companions were all given something to do (even if it was only really inter-character stuff between Graham and Yas), Jodie gave a great performance, and Dhawan solidified himself in his role (if he hadn't already). The Cybermen did feel a little unnecessary in this second episode, Ashad felt quite wasted after all the buildup he'd been given, and I thought the Cyber Masters looked absolutely terrible (the headdresses were nice, but they looked stupid on the Cybermen); I don't have a problem with Time Lords being converted either, though the idea that a dead Time Lord body could continue to regenerate didn't make a lot of sense to me. On the whole, the episode was alright, leaning into a very solid "good". I wouldn't say it was amazing, but it did something new without actually changing anything that came before it and that's not easily done. I've been quite surprised by just how much I've enjoyed Series 12 after a very lacklustre Series 11, and I'm very much looking forward to Revolution of the Daleks (whenever that might be) Put so very well and it's a more succinct version of my thoughts from Page 3. Jodie is almost a stand-in for fandom at one point in the ep, unsure and stuck in The Matrix (i.e. established canon that she thought she knew) - then Jo Martin says to her "None of this matters to who you actually are NOW. You're you because you chose to be and still do choose to be". When Jodie embraces that notion...that's when she wins. I love that so much.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 1:15:58 GMT
Space Jesus? Oh, no, the Doctor is BRIAN!! Brian, people! Don't go all Muggeridge on me now. And as for BF and Who? All perfectly seamless (cough). Brax at one time was Lord Burner and chose not to carry out a task. Was that a position held by a Division member? "She's not the Messiah! She's a very naughty Timeless Child!"
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Post by scriptortempore on Mar 2, 2020 1:26:42 GMT
Space Jesus? Oh, no, the Doctor is BRIAN!! Brian, people! Don't go all Muggeridge on me now. And as for BF and Who? All perfectly seamless (cough). Brax at one time was Lord Burner and chose not to carry out a task. Was that a position held by a Division member? "She's not the Messiah! She's a very naughty Timeless Child!" Always look on the bright side of your unknown number of lives
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Post by project37 on Mar 2, 2020 1:34:12 GMT
I've been watching for most of my 45 years and have never enjoyed this series more than I have over the past few weeks.
Funnily enough, I happened to be watching the Endgame documentary from the Survival DVD/Season 26 set earlier today which talked about creative challenges and the desire to bring back the mystery of the character. And sure enough, tonight's episode turns everything I thought I knew about the character on its head in the most spectacular and exciting way.
I get why some people feel very angry or protective or whatever. There's a section of fandom that loves to brag about Doctor Who's format allowing for infinite storytelling and infinite reinvention, and yet they turn around and get protective when it "goes too far". Their loss.
I loved these new revelations coupled with plenty of "blank spaces". Count me in among those that feel that this doesn't change or "disrespect" anything. It adds to it. It takes us in new unpredictable exciting directions to explore. I punched the air during the flashback montage sequence, because this episode and these ideas really felt like a celebration of Doctor Who's rich storytelling history and the infinite potential that can still be discovered.
Jodie was amazing. Sacha was incredible. And bringing Ruth back to point out how the Doctor, or any of us, doesn't have to be limited by who we once were...
...wow, I love this show. I love it so, so much. Great work by all involved. If taking a year off gives us a run of this caliber, then I'm all for it.
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Post by number13 on Mar 2, 2020 1:36:29 GMT
Leaving aside what I thought of the canon changes/expansions (as you wish to see them) for a second, didn't all this do exactly what JNT was heavily criticised by some for doing back in the day: endless layers of (albeit new) *cough* fan-lore which will leave casual viewers baffled / indifferent / bored ? I'm sure everyone who loved the episode will say it didn't, so my question was rhetorical.
It's no secret by now that I didn't like the Big Idea but that's partly because on one level it wasn't big enough (as well as being much too focused on the Doctor for my liking) : so what if the Time Lords were created by a people genetically upgrading themselves? Isn't that a bit 'every other Saturday' in terms of what various peoples have always done in Who? It also tells us nothing, because where did the Timeless Child originate? No doubt we'll now have several more series to look forward to before we learn that she was a Time-reversed Last Doctor and the entire Time Lord biology was bootstrapped out of its own paradox...
Finally, I loathed the Master which was so disappointing after his brilliant, evil but rational showing in Paris, Spyfall. Terrific performance but not the style of Master I want to see (again) and even for him it seemed a bit of an over-reaction didn't it? If all Time Lords had been based on him, that would have been a much better story for explaining why he went so OTT about his discovery. And I'm miffed that Gallifrey etc. is gone, again. Keep it in the background somewhere shadowy as a hidden power that can tweak the Doctor's destiny sometimes - no need to wipe it all out. Still, like the Master, no doubt one day they'll be back. Again.
Oh yes, finally finally - disappointed that Jo Martin's Doctor has been placed firmly in the Doctor's past, meaning she's not an incarnation for our TV future. I rather hoped she might be. And imo the Cyber-Time-Lords looked like something you'd put on top of a Christmas tree with their little lace headwings. Sweet, weren't they? And rather silly.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 2, 2020 1:52:32 GMT
After having watched this with my sister and us discussing how much we'd enjoyed the way all this turned out, I have to say I'm somewhat surprised and a little disappointed this hasn't gone down too well. As someone who is kind of against changing established continuity "just because", I was extremely worried about where this story was going to go and, ultimately, this story doesn't actually change anything. We've always known the story from chapter one, also known as An Unearthly Child, and we've had a bit of chapter zero filled in via exposition; all The Timeless Children added was a proper prologue. And the best part? You can actively ignore it and it changes absolutely nothing! So what if there were Doctors before Hartnell? Does it actually affect the incarnation of the Doctor we know, from Hartnell to Whittaker? Not at all. This "change" genuinely changes nothing to the ongoing adventures of the First Doctor through to the Thirteenth, and that's why I love it so much. Maybe they'll expand on all this stuff in future series but I'd be just fine with everything being left as it is. The Doctor that "matters", the Doctor that "counts", starts with when young Hartnell was brought into the world, be that by birth, loom, or regression into a child. All we have to do know it go forward with "our" version of the character and everything's just as it always was. As for The Timeless Children itself I'll agree it was a bit messy. It was quite slow (though I wouldn't say it was boring), but that gave the story the necessary time to breathe and get all the important moments across without rushing through things. I can't imagine how incoherent this would have been at the standard 50 minutes. The companions were all given something to do (even if it was only really inter-character stuff between Graham and Yas), Jodie gave a great performance, and Dhawan solidified himself in his role (if he hadn't already). The Cybermen did feel a little unnecessary in this second episode, Ashad felt quite wasted after all the buildup he'd been given, and I thought the Cyber Masters looked absolutely terrible (the headdresses were nice, but they looked stupid on the Cybermen); I don't have a problem with Time Lords being converted either, though the idea that a dead Time Lord body could continue to regenerate didn't make a lot of sense to me. On the whole, the episode was alright, leaning into a very solid "good". I wouldn't say it was amazing, but it did something new without actually changing anything that came before it and that's not easily done. I've been quite surprised by just how much I've enjoyed Series 12 after a very lacklustre Series 11, and I'm very much looking forward to Revolution of the Daleks (whenever that might be) Let me second Davy, your post is beautifully put. Much more organized that my totally random rantings. And I agree with you. This episode was alright. It did a lot of things I respect from a perspective of the show moving forward. I think you have to have this episode to open things up but it wasn’t an episode I loved. I think it probably needed another pass or two on the scripting end. Lose 5 or 10 minutes and I don’t think you really lose any story but in the end Chris Chibnall did what any show runner needs to do, he added to the property in a way that opens all kinds of doors for both his era of the show as well those eras to come. I hope he fully explores it. And after series 11, those are words I never expected to be typing.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 2, 2020 2:11:39 GMT
Jodie is almost a stand-in for fandom at one point in the ep, unsure and stuck in The Matrix (i.e. established canon that she thought she knew) - then Jo Martin says to her "None of this matters to who you actually are NOW. You're you because you chose to be and still do choose to be". When Jodie embraces that notion...that's when she wins. I love that so much. Much like the TARDIS stood in for a large section of the fandom when we first met 13 and it chucked her right out of the doors. And I don't think it can be said enough just how much Whittaker grew into the role this series.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 2, 2020 2:15:56 GMT
The reveal also opens up a whole new interpretation of other moments from the show's history: The Five Doctors, when Rassilon offers the Doctors immortality. The slightly mocking tone was originally meant as "you know what it is, you won't seriously say yes will you?", but it can now be interpreted as "I know you don't need immortality as you've already got it, but wouldn't it be funny if you said yes". There's a very good chance he knew about the Timeless Child (being the founder of Time Lord civilisation as we know it), so I could see him toying with the Doctor in that way. It could also be interpreted that Rassilon, jealous of the Doctor's actually immortality, was vaguely trying to tempt him into his own, vastly inferior, version. Another good example is the Valeyard. Being from so far into the Doctor's future (we still haven't got a story establishing him being created), he would know about the Doctor being the Timeless Child. His motivations in The Trial of a Time Lord suggests he doesn't have any regenerations of his own, so imagine tricking the High Council into awarding him all the Doctor's remaining regenerations - or, as we now know, infinite regenerations! The stakes were much higher for the Valeyard that we first thought... I'm sure there are many other occasions of stuff such as this. I think it'll be fun digging around for them and finding their potential "other" meanings Also, does this mean that we could feasibly argue that a lot of the "alternate universe" stories might actually have taken place in this one? I'm thinking things like The Curse of Fatal Death or Scream of the Shalka. What with there having been so many other Doctors we don't know about, maybe some of these adventures did indeed happen? (I realise both of those stories feature the Master and therefore probably can't work, but I'm sure you all understand my meaning)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 2:23:02 GMT
Okay, I've just come off a three-episode binge from The Haunting Of Villa Diodati to The Timeless Children, so this will be more an evaluation of the trio together rather than just The Timeless Children itself. I loved this. From humble beginnings up among literary giants to down among the dead of Gallifrey, I absolutely loved this. It felt like a quintessential love letter to the series mythos as a whole. There's some brilliant foreshadowing and mirrored developments here in the ur-story. The first act with the subversion of an origin story (the disruption of Shelley's writing of Frankenstein) directly paralleling the Doctor's own possible beginnings as we find out through the Matrix. On the subject of regeneration, that's not a question that's ever truly been answered. We were told Rassilon did it, but Rassilon has claimed a lot of things that weren't strictly true. Theories have always abounded. There was speculation as far back as Goth Opera in 1994 that he stole regeneration from the Great Vampires (and their Yssgaroth progenitors). Like our understanding of the human brain, the Time Lords knew how parts of the process worked. Never the minutiae and never quite the whole. The little details here click rather beautifully. Echoes within echoes, each carrying their own resonance. Ryan gets to score that hoop that he flunked in Spyfall and Yaz gets to use that extra push of development from Can You Hear Me? Even further back, the Timeless Child is playing with a bowship (just like those first mentioned in State of Decay) on their first death. The Master's claim to "become Death, become me," is twice as poignant with the story of Master and the NAs behind you. As is the Doctor's desperation over keeping her companions safe, factoring in the tragic fates of Adric, Marc and Bill. Even stories that never were get a look in with the Cyberlords. That final push from the Matrix with the Doctor's memories of her lives -- whether forwards or backwards -- has this brilliant sense of catharsis. And the best part? It's up to us to decide how it all fits together. Are they previous lives that have always dwelt there? Are they lives yet to come from a retroactive change to the past? The story doesn't give a definitive answer one way or the other. Only suggestions. Theories. Stories. Told with vigour and energy, but to be entwined however we choose. Definitely a trilogy to watch in one sitting. One story celebrating over half-a-century of history. Known and unknown. It's a properly cosmic event and I loved every moment of it. A winner. Hope it gets even better from here.
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Post by pazzer on Mar 2, 2020 2:33:13 GMT
That was fine, nothing really changes though guess the Doctor's immortal now. Bit tired of seeing Gallifrey destroyed and brought back. So hoping they leave it alone now. Was likely to happen anyway but disappointed there wasn't a better reason from the Master becoming evil again.
Nice to see getting inside Cybermen now instead of Daleks. Don't remember the Cybermen ever wanting to conquer Gallifrey. So that fell a bit flat. Last week the Cyberium seemed to have some sort of plan that involved going through the barrier. Guess that was just to met the Master. Which is abit of a let down. Enjoyed the scene with the Master using the tissue compression eliminator on Ashad. Though it did takeawy the Cybermen threat and once again we had the Master in command of a cyber army.
Was worried Doctor was going to abandon the Tardis. So was relieved when she went back for it. Judoon really shouldn't have been able to teleport inside the Tardis.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 2, 2020 2:40:18 GMT
I've just re-watched the "blasting the Maxtrix" sequence as there is just so much going on it's hard to keep track of everything. We get shots of the New Series companions, the Masters, various New Series and quite of number of Classic Series monsters/villains including Haemovores, Sharaz Jek, and Sil, and, most importantly, all of the Doctors. What I didn't notice when I first watched it is that they have colourised all the footage of Troughton and Hartnell! There's a shot from The Moonbase: Episode 2, the trial from The War Games, and Episode 1 of The Tomb of the Cybermen for Troughton and the Episode 3/ Episode 4 cliffhanger/reprise from The War Machines, a shot from An Unearthly Child: Episode 1, and some of the already colourised footage from The Name of the Doctor used for Hartnell. Quite a nice little touch!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 3:05:25 GMT
I've just re-watched the "blasting the Maxtrix" sequence as there is just so much going on it's hard to keep track of everything. We get shots of the New Series companions, the Masters, various New Series and quite of number of Classic Series monsters/villains including Haemovores, Sharaz Jek, and Sil, and, most importantly, all of the Doctors. What I didn't notice when I first watched it is that they have colourised all the footage of Troughton and Hartnell! There's a shot from The Moonbase: Episode 2, the trial from The War Games, and Episode 1 of The Tomb of the Cybermen for Troughton and the Episode 3/ Episode 4 cliffhanger/reprise from The War Machines, a shot from An Unearthly Child: Episode 1, and some of the already colourised footage from The Name of the Doctor used for Hartnell. Quite a nice little touch! I wonder if it was Stuart Humphryes (better known as BabelColour) and the like? It's difficult to say definitively these days, there are so many lovely colourisation artists about. I'm waiting for the tweet where the curtain is thrown back and someone goes: "'Tis I!" but it's yet to happen so far.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 2, 2020 3:25:19 GMT
But the Hartnell cycle of the Doctor IS all those things. They sucked at school, spent more time pallying about with vagrants than learning textbook knowledge, stole a TARDIS, met some humans and decided that the universe needs someone to potter around and pull up the weeds and straighten the hedges every so often. The cycle of the Doctor that includes Jo Martin were agents of “The Division” who went on to continue to use the Doctor without their agreement, it’s entirely possible that Martin was the last one to work for the Division by choice. Oh yes that was another irritating thing. Why invent 'The Division' at all? (All a bit second division if you ask me. )
What would have been wrong with them being the founders of the Celestial Intervention Agency?
Possibly because the real CIA might be pulling the same thing the UN did over UNIT? also.... the Doctor is now canonically 10 million years old (vis a vie hoe long Gallifrey has had ultimate power in Trial of a Time Lord), maybe the Division rebranded in that time into the CIA.
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Post by nottenst on Mar 2, 2020 3:26:22 GMT
Why was it called "The Timeless Children" instead of "The Timeless Child"? Or does it refer to all the Time Lords as being "The Timeless Children" of "The Timeless Child" in some respect.
Was Brendan the Doctor getting his memory purged after doing so much "For Service to the Division"? Or just some random Time Lord who had done work for The Division?
I am glad that there were two TARDIS that still had their chameleon circuit working - one turning into a house and the other into a tree. I still don't understand why The Ruth Doctor's TARDIS was buried as a policebox if she was pre-Hartnell. Doesn't seem to make sense.
Also, (as mentioned by others) the Judoon breaking into the TARDIS and transporting the Doctor straight to prison didn't seem right. I am glad we will get "Revolution of the Daleks" during the holidays and that should resolve this cliffhanger. Though, we don't know yet what companions may be rejoining The Doctor and at what point.
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Post by timegirl on Mar 2, 2020 3:31:14 GMT
I enjoyed it and Jodie and Sasha had some of their best moments here😃 but I am not sure how to process all the revelations 🤔 I admit I was continually yelling “WHAT?!” at the screen 😮 I initially hated that the Timeless Child reveal because like many of you I’d like to think the Doctor was special because of what they believed in rather than some chosen one style narrative🙁 but the more I think about it doesn’t change anything else we know about the Doctor and what they stand for and now we have lots of other fascinating things to learn about the Doctor 😀 We don’t even know if the first incarnation we saw as the Timeless Child was the original incarnation of the Doctor 🤔 The Doctor is now even more of a mystery now!😃 I also love the scenes with Graham and Yaz! 😃 I am wondering even more if Graham will be revealed to be another incarnation of the Doctor 🤔 Now that there are all kinds of incarnations we don’t know about and there was also something odd about Graham’s reaction to Yaz saying he was a good “human”🤔 It wasn’t a perfect episode and although it’s going to take a lot of time to process everything 🤔I definitely can’t say I was board ( in fact my heart felt like it was going to fall out of my chest it was beating so fast the entire run time) and I am very curious where where we are going to go next!😃
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 2, 2020 3:40:14 GMT
Though, we don't know yet what companions may be rejoining The Doctor and at what point. I read a little while ago, I think a Radio Times story, that all three TARDIS fam members are committed to the Revolution of the Daleks special but beyond that there is no info.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 3:41:20 GMT
Oh yes that was another irritating thing. Why invent 'The Division' at all? (All a bit second division if you ask me. )
What would have been wrong with them being the founders of the Celestial Intervention Agency?
Possibly because the real CIA might be pulling the same thing the UN did over UNIT? also.... the Doctor is now canonically 10 million years old (vis a vie hoe long Gallifrey has had ultimate power in Trial of a Time Lord), maybe the Division rebranded in that time into the CIA. There was a theory that they may have initially spawned from Rassilon's private guard, but their efforts to "recontextualise" history to suit their own ends made it impossible to tell. Another interesting possibility is... We know the CIA. They're the Time Lord equivalent of MI6. Charged with international, well, intratemporal affairs. We've never met Gallifrey's answer to MI5, the Interventionists with strict charge over the domestic side. The Homeworld's own history. Maybe the Division is their answer to that question?
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 2, 2020 3:44:59 GMT
Cue Nick.....Coming Soon From Big Finish Productions...The Division. Volume One.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 2, 2020 3:53:44 GMT
I've just re-watched the "blasting the Maxtrix" sequence as there is just so much going on it's hard to keep track of everything. We get shots of the New Series companions, the Masters, various New Series and quite of number of Classic Series monsters/villains including Haemovores, Sharaz Jek, and Sil, and, most importantly, all of the Doctors. What I didn't notice when I first watched it is that they have colourised all the footage of Troughton and Hartnell! There's a shot from The Moonbase: Episode 2, the trial from The War Games, and Episode 1 of The Tomb of the Cybermen for Troughton and the Episode 3/ Episode 4 cliffhanger/reprise from The War Machines, a shot from An Unearthly Child: Episode 1, and some of the already colourised footage from The Name of the Doctor used for Hartnell. Quite a nice little touch! I wonder if it was Stuart Humphryes (better known as BabelColour) and the like? It's difficult to say definitively these days, there are so many lovely colourisation artists about. I'm waiting for the tweet where the curtain is thrown back and someone goes: "'Tis I!" but it's yet to happen so far. I'd say it probably wasn't Stuart. No offence to whoever did the work for this episode, but it doesn't look nearly as good as Stuart's work. I have no doubt the brevity of the clips was to help disguise how not-so-great the final efforts are, but it was still nice to see that they'd done it
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