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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2021 13:23:11 GMT
It was easily - EASILY - the best of the Stranded sets for me. That may be damning with faint praise though as I found the first two to be inconsequential. Solid as character pieces at times but as essentially 8 consecutive eps of ongoing Who? Not quite my tempo.
This, to me, does a bit of a Season 8 or even 10 when after being stuck with earth mundanities, The Doctor is finally able to feel a bit more liberated as there is more travelling in time and space he can do now that the TARDIS is, if not quite back on form, then at least its responsive and on the mend.I really liked that each story kinda throws you in to a somewhat new status quo but with solid exposition and supposition, never leaves you lost (unless you are supposed to be).
Patience was a lot of fun. To have the two teams split, the Judoon on the warpath but something wrong with time - and The Doctor as a sort of Greek chorus, that worked well for me. It also allowed us to mix up the "teams" a bit. Optimistic Andy and Cynical Liv? Perfect pair.
Twisted Folklore was solid but I think the weakest of the set. We have seen stories like this quite a lot where the crew are already in the middle of bringing down a corrupt system. Not much added here but it was a solid adventure story which maybe the series needed - just a classic Who tale away from Baker Street.
Snow, I adored. Pain, grief, acceptance...but also intolerance, a dislike for the unlike and a rather horrible element that felt as 2021 as it did 10 years on. I did not quite fet Liv saying they cant change events, cant fight the fascists etc. Whats the difference in doing so here and in the last story? Who is very inconsistent with these events, fixed points etc, but placing this back to back with a story where they very much interfere...seems odd. It was taking on a bunch of hooligans, not bringing down the government. Still, I loved that a relatively dark story thematically - where a lonely old man and his pain and a bunch of fascists...also meet a fairytale whimsy. The snow was a lovely metaphor for holding on to that one nice thing that stops US being like THEM. Sometimes snow is snow...sometimes...it may just be magical.
What Just Happened? What indeed! I loved this. I do not care if the villain reveal was "obvious" (we all heard the end of ep 1, yes?) - it was a terrific story, perfectly plotted about how the small things in life that shape us, especially at a certain age, can define us for better and worse. And that every would be Dictator was once a kid, worried about games, homework etc. I think the manner of the storytelling isn't just a choice here but necessary. It would be a bit flat in the correct order since we know whodunnit. Its a constant series of "who is this?", "why are they there?" which demands attention. To write it out literally in order would be dull, the device IS the story. You could not overdo it, but I loved it as a way to end a set - on a beginning. Very Dorney.
So all in all...yeah, this is the first Stranded I am saying is really damn excellent. It feels like a little family now and maybe the last two sets were needed for that to cement since everything since Doom Coalition has been pretty non-stop. Character pieces here and there but we have finally really become acquainted when that is not too easy when everyone is on the run from The Eleven or Ravenous etc. I even now think I underrated Paul - I found him in Vols 1 and 2 very flat and almost bored. Material not up to it? Not enjoying remote recording and unable to trulyfind his voice when recording in his kitchen? No..I think he truly went inside his Doctor and realised this Doctor bein stranded *ahem* would leave him depressed and mopey. It makes sense now and the fact he is SO much more "on" here kinda proves that. The Doctor is a shark. Must keep moving. Of course The Doctor would sound bored stuck in 2020...Christ, most of us were!
A surprise contender for Top 5 BF of the year for me - which I did NOT expect to say. But as with the TV eps...I love being wrong when I wonder to myself "I haven't liked it so far...probably wont like this". Being wrong can be a privilege. Unexpectedly, I say - I cannot wait for Vol. 4!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2021 23:38:32 GMT
BTW, I think we may have the issue we have every time the poll is done "upside down" from the usual way its done here!
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Post by mark687 on Dec 22, 2021 23:50:34 GMT
BTW, I think we may have the issue we have every time the poll is done "upside down" from the usual way its done here! Regards mark687
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 23, 2021 5:14:08 GMT
BTW, I think we may have the issue we have every time the poll is done "upside down" from the usual way its done here! This is why I add the adjectives next to the numbers when I make release threads -- less room for confusion. But, yeah, otherwise some folks here are really not feeling Stranded 3. Which, I mean, fair, but it doesn't seem very likely, since presumably the only folks even in this thread are those who liked the first two sets at least well enough to consider the third.
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Post by tuigirl on Dec 23, 2021 8:47:22 GMT
BTW, I think we may have the issue we have every time the poll is done "upside down" from the usual way its done here! This is why I add the adjectives next to the numbers when I make release threads -- less room for confusion. But, yeah, otherwise some folks here are really not feeling Stranded 3. Which, I mean, fair, but it doesn't seem very likely, since presumably the only folks even in this thread are those who liked the first two sets at least well enough to consider the third. Well, from what I had been reading in here, it is a bit of a marmite release. However, I do not understand if people rank it on the same level as Exile....
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 23, 2021 21:24:51 GMT
I dunno, those of us who don't like Stranded don't seem to actually hate it, they just seem more... ambivalent/disinterested, which I'd interpret as a score of a 3 or, at worst, 2. Maybe I'm wrong? 1s should be the worst of the worst, and if anyone here genuinely thinks it's that egregiously bad... please speak up!
I can definitely understand some of the stated arguments against this range that have been made here, but rankin it's at the very bottom--alongside absolute drivel like Exile--requires at least some explanation, right?
And until we get four people saying, "I think this is one of the worst sets/stories ever," I'm just gonna assume that at least some of those votes were made in error.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Dec 23, 2021 21:46:30 GMT
I dunno, those of us who don't like Stranded don't seem to actually hate it, they just seem more... ambivalent/disinterested, which I'd interpret as a score of a 3 or, at worst, 2. Maybe I'm wrong? 1s should be the worst of the worst, and if anyone here genuinely thinks it's that egregiously bad... please speak up! I can definitely understand some of the stated arguments against this range that have been made here, but rankin it's at the very bottom--alongside absolute drivel like Exile--requires at least some explanation, right? And until we get four people saying, "I think this is one of the worst sets/stories ever," I'm just gonna assume that at least some of those votes were made in error. I havent heard any of them yet.. This series has me intrigued even more so.
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 23, 2021 23:15:52 GMT
There were some aspects of the first set I didn't care for (I think Big Finish is a bit too fond of in media res) but found the second set phenomenal. Still haven't listened to the third set--I tend to save these things for special occasions while I catch up with other ranges I don't have the same sky-high expectations for. But it's certainly easy to see why it's divisive: Stranded is the boldest this franchise has been since the Tom Baker era reimagined what the show was and could be (something I'd argue RTD's reboot only refined, rather than altered). Like imagine The Lodger spread out over a full season with most of the alien stuff absent entirely, and a larger cast of characters to balance. It's very ambitious and very much the usual sort of story the Big Finish writers are accustomed to. There's not really much in the way of "Big Idea" science fiction (which I typically love) or high-stakes drama (which I typically don't). It's more about a gaggle of people thrown together by happenstance (or maybe...?) as we slowly learn more about them, their lives, and their relationships to each other, one layer peeling away at a time. As I think johnhurtdoctor 's criticisms of the prior sets indicate, assuming you're down with the core premise, much of one's enjoyment of these stories is going to hinge on how organically these events unfold--after all, we need reasons to learn more about this large cast of weirdos--and there are certainly contrivances at play driving the story forward. I think the biggest weakness of the range, ultimately, is that it very much wants to be a series of character-driven stories, but more often than not it's the plot driving the action.
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Dec 24, 2021 9:39:40 GMT
There were some aspects of the first set I didn't care for (I think Big Finish is a bit too fond of in media res) but found the second set phenomenal. Still haven't listened to the third set--I tend to save these things for special occasions while I catch up with other ranges I don't have the same sky-high expectations for. But it's certainly easy to see why it's divisive: Stranded is the boldest this franchise has been since the Tom Baker era reimagined what the show was and could be (something I'd argue RTD's reboot only refined, rather than altered). Like imagine The Lodger spread out over a full season with most of the alien stuff absent entirely, and a larger cast of characters to balance. It's very ambitious and very much the usual sort of story the Big Finish writers are accustomed to. There's not really much in the way of "Big Idea" science fiction (which I typically love) or high-stakes drama (which I typically don't). It's more about a gaggle of people thrown together by happenstance (or maybe...?) as we slowly learn more about them, their lives, and their relationships to each other, one layer peeling away at a time. As I think johnhurtdoctor 's criticisms of the prior sets indicate, assuming you're down with the core premise, much of one's enjoyment of these stories is going to hinge on how organically these events unfold--after all, we need reasons to learn more about this large cast of weirdos--and there are certainly contrivances at play driving the story forward. I think the biggest weakness of the range, ultimately, is that it very much wants to be a series of character-driven stories, but more often than not it's the plot driving the action. I would disagree. This isn't bold at all. I expected the whole thing to be like the story Wild Animals. But far from the Doctor & co being Stranded & having to deal with earth based threats they are soon travelling through time, encountering aliens & UNIT, Torchwood etc. I think you're misrepresenting my criticisms.
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Post by elkawho on Dec 24, 2021 14:37:08 GMT
I dunno, those of us who don't like Stranded don't seem to actually hate it, they just seem more... ambivalent/disinterested, which I'd interpret as a score of a 3 or, at worst, 2. Maybe I'm wrong? 1s should be the worst of the worst, and if anyone here genuinely thinks it's that egregiously bad... please speak up! I can definitely understand some of the stated arguments against this range that have been made here, but rankin it's at the very bottom--alongside absolute drivel like Exile--requires at least some explanation, right? And until we get four people saying, "I think this is one of the worst sets/stories ever," I'm just gonna assume that at least some of those votes were made in error. Yeah, I love this set, but I can understand why people are not happy with the arc. But a 1/5? Yeah I was wondering about that right before I read your posts. I think about the releases I believe are a 1/5: Exile, Nekromateia, Minuet in Hell, and a few more and I don't understand it.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 24, 2021 14:53:30 GMT
I dunno, those of us who don't like Stranded don't seem to actually hate it, they just seem more... ambivalent/disinterested, which I'd interpret as a score of a 3 or, at worst, 2. Maybe I'm wrong? 1s should be the worst of the worst, and if anyone here genuinely thinks it's that egregiously bad... please speak up! I can definitely understand some of the stated arguments against this range that have been made here, but rankin it's at the very bottom--alongside absolute drivel like Exile--requires at least some explanation, right? And until we get four people saying, "I think this is one of the worst sets/stories ever," I'm just gonna assume that at least some of those votes were made in error. If a person finds something to be boring, and doesn’t hold any interest after multiple attempts at listening to it, isn’t that the worst of the worst? I wish I hated it because hate is something tangible & vital, I personally find ambivalence to be much greater sin.
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Post by theillusiveman on Dec 24, 2021 16:03:17 GMT
There were some aspects of the first set I didn't care for (I think Big Finish is a bit too fond of in media res) but found the second set phenomenal. Still haven't listened to the third set--I tend to save these things for special occasions while I catch up with other ranges I don't have the same sky-high expectations for. But it's certainly easy to see why it's divisive: Stranded is the boldest this franchise has been since the Tom Baker era reimagined what the show was and could be (something I'd argue RTD's reboot only refined, rather than altered). Like imagine The Lodger spread out over a full season with most of the alien stuff absent entirely, and a larger cast of characters to balance. It's very ambitious and very much the usual sort of story the Big Finish writers are accustomed to. There's not really much in the way of "Big Idea" science fiction (which I typically love) or high-stakes drama (which I typically don't). It's more about a gaggle of people thrown together by happenstance (or maybe...?) as we slowly learn more about them, their lives, and their relationships to each other, one layer peeling away at a time. As I think johnhurtdoctor 's criticisms of the prior sets indicate, assuming you're down with the core premise, much of one's enjoyment of these stories is going to hinge on how organically these events unfold--after all, we need reasons to learn more about this large cast of weirdos--and there are certainly contrivances at play driving the story forward. I think the biggest weakness of the range, ultimately, is that it very much wants to be a series of character-driven stories, but more often than not it's the plot driving the action. Oh Boy strongly disagree there i have said it before and ill say it agian Stranded is the same standard BF EDA Formula
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Post by Kestrel on Dec 25, 2021 12:44:41 GMT
I can't really speak for the EDAs, as I've not listened to them, but so I'd love to hear your thoughts in greater detail. What, specifically, is that shared formula? Also, I should hasten to add that while I think Stranded is a refreshing take on the premise, that doesn't necessarily,,ean it's as bold of a departure from the norms as it could or even should be. I definitely think Big Finish -- the franchise in general, yeah, but Big Finish in particular -- could stand to go a lot further in this direction. EG less travel, more character focus, more fish-out-of-temporal-water nonsense. As the earlier discussion re: Stranded's big (presumed) villain established, Big Finish is still leaning a bit hard on some pretty tired cliches. I would disagree. This isn't bold at all. I expected the whole thing to be like the story Wild Animals. But far from the Doctor & co being Stranded & having to deal with earth based threats they are soon travelling through time, encountering aliens & UNIT, Torchwood etc. I think you're misrepresenting my criticisms. Misremembering, more like. (There's a reason I have that qualification in my sig!) -- But I do apologize! FWIW I think I was thinking more about what you'd said about UNIT Dating than the other stories, as IIRC you found it the weakest (or one of) the set, whereas it would up being one of my favorites. And I think our reactions were a result of falling on either side of a razor-thin line, if that makes sense. If a person finds something to be boring, and doesn’t hold any interest after multiple attempts at listening to it, isn’t that the worst of the worst? I wish I hated it because hate is something tangible & vital, I personally find ambivalence to be much greater sin. I certainly don't think so. What you're describing is merely a poorly-written story--one that elicits no emotion whatsoever from the audience. Which, yeah, is bad... but there are also stories that are actively offensive out there -- embracing bigotry and hate and ignorance and perpetuating all manner of real-world evils. Art that inspires nothing at all is, IMHO, immensely preferable to art that inspires revulsion, disgust or outright harm.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 25, 2021 19:10:58 GMT
I can't really speak for the EDAs, as I've not listened to them, but so I'd love to hear your thoughts in greater detail. What, specifically, is that shared formula? Also, I should hasten to add that while I think Stranded is a refreshing take on the premise, that doesn't necessarily,,ean it's as bold of a departure from the norms as it could or even should be. I definitely think Big Finish -- the franchise in general, yeah, but Big Finish in particular -- could stand to go a lot further in this direction. EG less travel, more character focus, more fish-out-of-temporal-water nonsense. As the earlier discussion re: Stranded's big (presumed) villain established, Big Finish is still leaning a bit hard on some pretty tired cliches. I would disagree. This isn't bold at all. I expected the whole thing to be like the story Wild Animals. But far from the Doctor & co being Stranded & having to deal with earth based threats they are soon travelling through time, encountering aliens & UNIT, Torchwood etc. I think you're misrepresenting my criticisms. Misremembering, more like. (There's a reason I have that qualification in my sig!) -- But I do apologize! FWIW I think I was thinking more about what you'd said about UNIT Dating than the other stories, as IIRC you found it the weakest (or one of) the set, whereas it would up being one of my favorites. And I think our reactions were a result of falling on either side of a razor-thin line, if that makes sense. If a person finds something to be boring, and doesn’t hold any interest after multiple attempts at listening to it, isn’t that the worst of the worst? I wish I hated it because hate is something tangible & vital, I personally find ambivalence to be much greater sin. I certainly don't think so. What you're describing is merely a poorly-written story--one that elicits no emotion whatsoever from the audience. Which, yeah, is bad... but there are also stories that are actively offensive out there -- embracing bigotry and hate and ignorance and perpetuating all manner of real-world evils. Art that inspires nothing at all is, IMHO, immensely preferable to art that inspires revulsion, disgust or outright harm.I would argue the point of art is to cause some kind of response, be it positive or negative. It isn’t about bigotry or trying to be offensive. A piece of drama, novel, comic book, ballet, opera that just lies there is disposable. At least with hate you are feeling something. Responding to something and it gives one the opportunity to examine why one is responding in a passionate way. That has value.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 10:06:46 GMT
I certainly don't think so. What you're describing is merely a poorly-written story--one that elicits no emotion whatsoever from the audience. Which, yeah, is bad... but there are also stories that are actively offensive out there -- embracing bigotry and hate and ignorance and perpetuating all manner of real-world evils. Art that inspires nothing at all is, IMHO, immensely preferable to art that inspires revulsion, disgust or outright harm. First, we are talkin BF and Doctor Who. Embracing bigotry and hate isn't gonna make it past any of their writers, script editors, producers, directors or executives. So I think this is a completely separate, if interesting, discussion. I have made it VERY clear for years on the forum I believe a dull, middle of the road Doctor Who is offensive in its lack of ambition. All of time and space...use it. If the story is still bad, I will always applaud the effort of at least thinkin outside the blue box. But lets speak on art overall. Your concerns are valid - but we have laws on hate speech which apply to print too as some extremists have found out. When anything becomes dangerous to to the point it will cause harm to the body or to the mind via incitement and the like, it is a matter for the law. Not for audiences or critics to remove. Who is to be the arbiter of what is acceptable? The same people burning Beatles albums because of John Lennon and his "blasphemy"? The same people who got Mark Twain removed from school libraries? The same people who booed Sinead O'Connor off stage for accusing the Catholic Church of molestation of kids - something they now admit to? Wonder how many wish they didn't burn their first edition Beatles records now they could sell for thousands? Wonder if Sinead got a single apology from those who booed wen it became beyond any doubt child abuse, and Papal cover ups were endemic? These are ALL illustrations of what happens when people believe art must "play nice" and they are fit to judge when it does not. Some more? Bob Dylan was booed off the stage worldwide for daring to play rock not folk and have a band in 1965 and 1966 rather than just an acoustic guitar and harmonica. Yep - Nobel Prize Winner and musical and literary icon Bob Dylan. Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring was booed on opening night in 1913. Literally months later...so was Sergei Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 2. Both are now considered among the finest pieces of music ever written. Miles Davis and John Coltrane, two of the top jazz giants in history..booed for daring to sound different. Miles was also booed when inventing fusion and incorporating rock ideas into it. Rap and hip-hop as a whole were met with disgust by a generation raised on rock - who really, to be accurate were that overused term "boomers", given when the scene came of age in the early to mid 80s. Now Public Enemy are taught in school, with Chuck D as a poet. Scorsese's Taxi Driver and David Lynch's Fire Walk With Me were booed off at Cannes. Both now considered classics. So today's "revulsion" and "disgust" just may be tomorrows masterpiece. Art has only one responsibility - to cause a response. Indifference? That is truly an artistic failure. To quote Neil Young on why he followed up his MASSIVE selling album Harvest and Number One single Heart Of Gold with intentionally dark, noncommercial music that he knew would alienate him, when he coulda played ball and been a Carole King, James Taylor or Jackson Browne with platinum record after platinum record.."'Heart of Gold' put me in the middle of the road. Traveling there soon became a bore so I headed for the ditch." You know the funny thin? Its the "ditch" records that have inspired musicians since, not the hit stuff. No matter how many reviews considered his new music "revolting" and "disgusting". Its where his art needed to take him. Not to safety but to where people would sneer at best and consider it "actively offensive" to use more of your terms.
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
Likes: 5,062
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Post by ljwilson on Dec 26, 2021 10:15:12 GMT
I love it davy, but it did have one element missing. I'd say....
'So stick that up yer jumper'
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Dec 26, 2021 10:30:46 GMT
I certainly don't think so. What you're describing is merely a poorly-written story--one that elicits no emotion whatsoever from the audience. Which, yeah, is bad... but there are also stories that are actively offensive out there -- embracing bigotry and hate and ignorance and perpetuating all manner of real-world evils. Art that inspires nothing at all is, IMHO, immensely preferable to art that inspires revulsion, disgust or outright harm. First, we are talkin BF and Doctor Who. Embracing bigotry and hate isn't gonna make it past any of their writers, script editors, producers, directors or executives. So I think this is a completely separate, if interesting, discussion. I have made it VERY clear for years on the forum I believe a dull, middle of the road Doctor Who is offensive in its lack of ambition. All of time and space...use it. If the story is still bad, I will always applaud the effort of at least thinkin outside the blue box. But lets speak on art overall. Your concerns are valid - but we have laws on hate speech which apply to print too as some extremists have found out. When anything becomes dangerous to to the point it will cause harm to the body or to the mind via incitement and the like, it is a matter for the law. Not for audiences or critics to remove. Who is to be the arbiter of what is acceptable? The same people burning Beatles albums because of John Lennon and his "blasphemy"? The same people who got Mark Twain removed from school libraries? The same people who booed Sinead O'Connor off stage for accusing the Catholic Church of molestation of kids - something they now admit to? Wonder how many wish they didn't burn their first edition Beatles records now they could sell for thousands? Wonder if Sinead got a single apology from those who booed wen it became beyond any doubt child abuse, and Papal cover ups were endemic? These are ALL illustrations of what happens when people believe art must "play nice" and they are fit to judge when it does not. Some more? Bob Dylan was booed off the stage worldwide for daring to play rock not folk and have a band in 1965 and 1966 rather than just an acoustic guitar and harmonica. Yep - Nobel Prize Winner and musical and literary icon Bob Dylan. Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring was booed on opening night in 1913. Literally months later...so was Sergei Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 2. Both are now considered among the finest pieces of music ever written. Miles Davis and John Coltrane, two of the top jazz giants in history..booed for daring to sound different. Miles was also booed when inventing fusion and incorporating rock ideas into it. Rap and hip-hop as a whole were met with disgust by a generation raised on rock - who really, to be accurate were that overused term "boomers", given when the scene came of age in the early to mid 80s. Now Public Enemy are taught in school, with Chuck D as a poet. Scorsese's Taxi Driver and David Lynch's Fire Walk With Me were booed off at Cannes. Both now considered classics. So today's "revulsion" and "disgust" just may be tomorrows masterpiece. Art has only one responsibility - to cause a response. Indifference? That is truly an artistic failure. To quote Neil Young on why he followed up his MASSIVE selling album Harvest and Number One single Heart Of Gold with intentionally dark, noncommercial music that he knew would alienate him, when he coulda played ball and been a Carole King, James Taylor or Jackson Browne with platinum record after platinum record.."'Heart of Gold' put me in the middle of the road. Traveling there soon became a bore so I headed for the ditch." You know the funny thin? Its the "ditch" records that have inspired musicians since, not the hit stuff. No matter how many reviews considered his new music "revolting" and "disgusting". Its where his art needed to take him. Not to safety but to where people would sneer at best and consider it "actively offensive" to use more of your terms. Go back & listen to Flip-Flop.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 10:43:05 GMT
A glib one line post from the forum Scrooge, clearly out when the three Spirits came to visit. Never change. Mostly because...I doubt you could. Misery loves company they say...I think you may find happiness makes the company love you.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 26, 2021 10:49:15 GMT
First, we are talkin BF and Doctor Who. Embracing bigotry and hate isn't gonna make it past any of their writers, script editors, producers, directors or executives. So I think this is a completely separate, if interesting, discussion. I have made it VERY clear for years on the forum I believe a dull, middle of the road Doctor Who is offensive in its lack of ambition. All of time and space...use it. If the story is still bad, I will always applaud the effort of at least thinkin outside the blue box. But lets speak on art overall. Your concerns are valid - but we have laws on hate speech which apply to print too as some extremists have found out. When anything becomes dangerous to to the point it will cause harm to the body or to the mind via incitement and the like, it is a matter for the law. Not for audiences or critics to remove. Who is to be the arbiter of what is acceptable? The same people burning Beatles albums because of John Lennon and his "blasphemy"? The same people who got Mark Twain removed from school libraries? The same people who booed Sinead O'Connor off stage for accusing the Catholic Church of molestation of kids - something they now admit to? Wonder how many wish they didn't burn their first edition Beatles records now they could sell for thousands? Wonder if Sinead got a single apology from those who booed wen it became beyond any doubt child abuse, and Papal cover ups were endemic? These are ALL illustrations of what happens when people believe art must "play nice" and they are fit to judge when it does not. Some more? Bob Dylan was booed off the stage worldwide for daring to play rock not folk and have a band in 1965 and 1966 rather than just an acoustic guitar and harmonica. Yep - Nobel Prize Winner and musical and literary icon Bob Dylan. Igor Stravinsky's The Rite of Spring was booed on opening night in 1913. Literally months later...so was Sergei Prokofiev's Piano Concerto No. 2. Both are now considered among the finest pieces of music ever written. Miles Davis and John Coltrane, two of the top jazz giants in history..booed for daring to sound different. Miles was also booed when inventing fusion and incorporating rock ideas into it. Rap and hip-hop as a whole were met with disgust by a generation raised on rock - who really, to be accurate were that overused term "boomers", given when the scene came of age in the early to mid 80s. Now Public Enemy are taught in school, with Chuck D as a poet. Scorsese's Taxi Driver and David Lynch's Fire Walk With Me were booed off at Cannes. Both now considered classics. So today's "revulsion" and "disgust" just may be tomorrows masterpiece. Art has only one responsibility - to cause a response. Indifference? That is truly an artistic failure. To quote Neil Young on why he followed up his MASSIVE selling album Harvest and Number One single Heart Of Gold with intentionally dark, noncommercial music that he knew would alienate him, when he coulda played ball and been a Carole King, James Taylor or Jackson Browne with platinum record after platinum record.."'Heart of Gold' put me in the middle of the road. Traveling there soon became a bore so I headed for the ditch." You know the funny thin? Its the "ditch" records that have inspired musicians since, not the hit stuff. No matter how many reviews considered his new music "revolting" and "disgusting". Its where his art needed to take him. Not to safety but to where people would sneer at best and consider it "actively offensive" to use more of your terms. Go back & listen to Flip-Flop. But that's the whole point Art's subjective to the beholder and as is evident throughout this Thread ,an individual can be as vocal in their like and dislike of something, But that dosen't and shouldn't make another individuals opinion, even if opposite any less valid. Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2021 12:32:04 GMT
First, we are talking BF and Doctor Who. Embracing bigotry and hate isn't gonna make it past any of their writers, script editors, producers, directors or executives. Go back & listen to Flip-Flop. Which might have been a fair observation on some parts of society in the UK at the time, or not, but I doubt Flip-Flop was written with the intention of embracing bigotry or hate.
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