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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 18, 2022 11:50:57 GMT
There's no level of spin that can sell this as anything other than a disaster. And there aren't three million people waiting to watch it on iPlayer either. Of course it doesn't help generate enthusiasm when the Producer and Star are talking about how they wanted to quit back in 2020. I'll say it's a disappointment, but it's also spin to call them a 'disaster' since Mzumba provided important context i.e. live events like games or talents usually win out.
Fun fact, know how much Loki debuted to in the UK, with all of Disney's money and hype behind it? 1.5 million. Hawkeye, similar range.
I bring up Loki and its ilk for a secondary reason, and something which does impact LoTSD: what I call the 'Twitter illusion'. When they got revealed in the Eve next time, Twitter blew up, so many people were pumped for their return. On paper, that should translate to a lot of interest and viewers (not unlike the chatter for the Marvel shows which seem like the biggest things ever). Problem is, and it's the same with the Loki example, Twitter is not truly reflective of the general audience/population: to us it's a big deal, but for most, them being back doesn't mean anything. The Sea Devils don't have the same mainstream iconography as say the TARDIS or even the Daleks. If LotSD was simply another story in the original S13, they'd be a nice bonus, but they wouldn't be sold as 'the big draw' like here.
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Post by stcoop on Apr 18, 2022 11:54:58 GMT
I'll say it's a disappointment, but it's also spin to call them a 'disaster' since Mzumba provided important context i.e. live events like games or talents usually win out.
A repeat of the Antiques Roadshow on BBC2 got more viewers.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 18, 2022 11:57:07 GMT
I'll say it's a disappointment, but it's also spin to call them a 'disaster' since Mzumba provided important context i.e. live events like games or talents usually win out.
A repeat of the Antiques Roadshow on BBC2 got more viewers. AR is also one of the most long lived and popular shows in the UK, because it's made for a demographic guaranteed to always watch terrestrial (i.e. older). Not the same for a younger-skewing genre drama that lives in a space close to the likes of Marvel and Star Wars, which skews more aftermarket/online. I wouldn't be surprised, if not pretty certain, that had a big part to play in the Bad Wolf shift.
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Post by thewatcher on Apr 18, 2022 12:02:28 GMT
I'll say it's a disappointment, but it's also spin to call them a 'disaster' since Mzumba provided important context i.e. live events like games or talents usually win out.
A repeat of the Antiques Roadshow on BBC2 got more viewers. So what? Doctor Who been back for over 15 years now will it be around forever? If you like it watch it if you dont then dont watch it. Why worry about how many people watched it for? Some people here seem to take opportunity to talk negatively about the show with glee. Must obviously not like it.
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Post by stcoop on Apr 18, 2022 12:07:35 GMT
Not the same for a younger-skewing genre drama that lives in a space close to the likes of Marvel and Star Wars, which skews more aftermarket/online.
75-80% of the total viewers for an episode still watch live, so it's likely that this won't hit 3 million viewers even on the Live +7 figures. Half of the number who watched the first episode of Series 13.
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Post by stcoop on Apr 18, 2022 12:08:59 GMT
Some people here seem to take opportunity to talk negatively about the show with glee. Must obviously not like it.
Or some of us do like it and want it to be around for years to come which it won't be unless Russell can pull off another miracle.
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Post by muckypup on Apr 18, 2022 12:09:08 GMT
While I don’t want too be too down on this as it was a brave, fun and perhaps 13th best entry
In terms of story n writing it was all over the place again, John bishop shines brighter than everyone else & yaz still the most exciting thing about here character is she has a “z” in her name……
But it was fun & enjoyable
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Post by thewatcher on Apr 18, 2022 12:13:02 GMT
Some people here seem to take opportunity to talk negatively about the show with glee. Must obviously not like it.
Or some of us do like it and want it to be around for years to come which it won't be unless Russell can pull off another miracle.
Ok then wait for RTD to come back, what does reporting on viewing figures actually achieve?
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 18, 2022 12:19:18 GMT
Not the same for a younger-skewing genre drama that lives in a space close to the likes of Marvel and Star Wars, which skews more aftermarket/online.
75-80% of the total viewers for an episode still watch live, so it's likely that this won't hit 3 million viewers even on the Live +7 figures. Half of the number who watched the first episode of Series 13.
Which doesn't disprove my point: more of the audience watches online, at their own schedule and aftermarket i.e. beyond just the main BBC platforms. The BBC themselves have said multiple times as such when it comes to Who, which is no doubt why they're shifting to a co-pro model moving forward under RTD: to take advantadge of how the audience works nowadays. Need anymore proof: look at His Dark Materials, which is probably what our future is going to look a lot like. Very similar demographics.
2.2m is a shame, but I'm not panicking because there's no point: 14's coming and everything's about to change. All that's sealed and dealed so LotSD basically has nothing to prove.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 18, 2022 12:46:06 GMT
I was really rooting for Halou Wang and it's unfortunate that she's in the Jennifer Perrot camp, rather than directors like Manzoor or Sullivan: competent but her sensibilities don't suit the story. I suspect they were trying to do a Gore Verbinski-POTC, where you have an oddball filmmaker gives a unique personality to a mass appeal swashbuckler, but the fight scenes are often muddled with tight framing and editing. Sad thing is, instead of focusing on the episode's actual problems, I and likely no shortage of you can see 'those people' using Wang to start shouting, 'SEE? SEE? Diversity doesn't work!', because we've never had bad or massively compromised episodes under guys in the past (including, ironically, the previous TV Sea Devil story) right?
I also sincerely hope Road doesn't get hounded off Twitter for this episode: it was their first rodeo on the show and to be saddled with so much rotten luck outside their control at least warrants some sympathy. Doesn't mean anybody has to like this ep (I'm very mild on it) but I hope some maturity is displayed.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 18, 2022 12:58:03 GMT
I was really rooting for Halou Wang and it's unfortunate that she's in the Jennifer Perrot camp, rather than directors like Manzoor or Sullivan: competent but her sensibilities don't suit the story. I suspect they were trying to do a Gore Verbinski-POTC, where you have an oddball filmmaker gives a unique personality to a mass appeal swashbuckler, but the fight scenes are often muddled with tight framing and editing. Sad thing is, instead of focusing on the episode's actual problems, I and no shortage of you can see 'those people' using Wang to start shouting, 'SEE? SEE? Diversity doesn't work!', because we've never had bad or massively compromised episodes under guys in the past (including, ironically, the previous TV Sea Devil story) right? Actually I think the Guest Cast is one of this EPs strengths, they'er all believable in what they'er doing. we should perhaps have seen Jin make the intatial pact implying he's a bit more willingly ruthless than he turned out to be, but in terms of Performances they were fine. Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2022 13:46:55 GMT
2.2 is a poor, poor number - literally the lowest overnight in DWs 59 years but from the marketing to the episode count.... I think the BBC wont lose sleep as they checked out of this era a while back.
They are onto the return of RTD investment wise. And as much as we may be excited by the next time trailer..I had "who were they?" posts from numerous friends when Sophie and Janet popped up. All that matters, really, is the quality of the show. It is surely about to enter an era where more is expected of it from the BBC. RTD would not be back if he did not believe he could do better numbers than S12, Flux and this ep. The brand was made worldwide under his watch, cemented by early Moffat. If the show was just lookin for someone else....yeah, it may be a bit of a time to fret but Bad Wolf are just not about to put so much on the table for a show anywhere near crisis.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 18, 2022 14:20:03 GMT
Now, pivoting back to the actual episode: many have said the epilogue was great, but I did really like Dan and Diane's little scene. I thought it was sweet.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Apr 18, 2022 14:40:32 GMT
I can't decide if that episode was meh or blah. I think some criticisms stand, though - would *you* enthusiastically take a job with the woman who killed your father and caused all your friends to be massacred? Why does changing the magnetic field move the stars? And why can't I hear Yaz over the incidental music? Basically, what we have is War of the Sontarans Redux: a light and breezy historical that feels exactly like the early-mid seasoner it likely originally was, over a special. Still enjoyable, but doesn't have much in the way of theme or subtext, Second time that Chibnall-era has used a historical figure as set-dressing and not taught the audience anything about who they were or what they did.
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Post by shallacatop on Apr 18, 2022 15:36:55 GMT
2.2 is a poor, poor number - literally the lowest overnight in DWs 59 years but from the marketing to the episode count.... I think the BBC wont lose sleep as they checked out of this era a while back. Spot on. The BBC didn’t market the episode at all and as a result won’t be expecting anything from the figures either way. They may make a push for Jodie’s finale, but that’ll be part of the centenary rather than anything Who specific. As you say, they’re looking ahead at RTD’s era and will view anything now as a waste of resources. It’s hard to disagree there with the shows future secure for a few years yet, regardless of any personal views on the tenure.
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Post by shallacatop on Apr 18, 2022 15:42:50 GMT
Fuller thoughts: Chibnall's team has thus far done a commendable job, delivering huge scope amidst the pandemic and disguising that reality. However, sooner or later, we'd get to one where the production circumstances'd show through. The small cast, the sparsely populated sets that wasn't guys in masks, a directing style heavy on midshots and close ups; the illusion didn't work this time and it makes a seafaring epic feel small. I was really rooting for Halou Wang and it's unfortunate that she's in the Jennifer Perrot camp, rather than directors like Manzoor or Sullivan: competent but her sensibilities don't suit the story. I suspect they were trying to do a Gore Verbinski-POTC, where you have an oddball filmmaker gives a unique personality to a mass appeal swashbuckler, but the fight scenes are often muddled with tight framing and editing. Sea Devils were the best part, and even with as average as this was, it's still light years ahead of Warriors of the Deep in terms of using them better and capturing their 'xenophobic elitist warrior' nature. The costumes looked good, even if perhaps the fins could've been longer, and I adapted quick to the way they spoke. Plus, the ghost ship was the stand out effect of the episode. The guest cast were fine, but Yu doesn't get enough material to come near the level of Visjnic or Powell, and there was some nice Jodie-Mandip chemistry (Road's comedy chops came in handy here), while John did get some funny moments with his deadpan reaction to extraordinary events. Basically, what we have is War of the Sontarans Redux: a light and breezy historical that feels exactly like the early-mid seasoner it likely originally was, over a special. Still enjoyable, but doesn't have much in the way of theme or subtext, and its shortcomings highlight that even more than WotS did: at least there, the Sontarans as allegory for rampant militarism was a great fit and did give something more. The Sea Devils could be any other monster and the story'd not change a great deal: anything deeper from their 70s original or even other Silurian stories is not present. Combine that with plot threads that don't feel fully explored, like Ching's family or Ying's shifting perspective from hate to pity for her, and you have the tell-tale sign of a script that has clearly seen a lot of alteration under difficult circumstances, and marred further by my recurring complaint with S12 and Flux: too fast pacing and a fixation on setpieces. Forgive my ignorance, but it feels like you’re placing a lot more on the COVID circumstances than is necessary or warranted. It hardly had come out of thin air by this point; the script wasn’t completed until the pandemic well underway, Flux had been in the can (and showed no signs of any restrictions) and Eve of the Daleks had shown how to handle an episode with such restrictions in place. It just wasn’t a great episode regardless of any real life restraints. The plot wasn’t thorough and the guest cast hardly developed. The epilogue was lovely, and I include Dan and Di’s piece in that, but should’ve been added to a complete episode, not instead of. Ultimately that loss of running time in the episode is where we can place the “blame” on any story development. For me anyway.
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Post by project37 on Apr 18, 2022 16:11:04 GMT
This (version of the) show is 17 years old. A Doctor Who "Easter Special" in 2022 isn't exactly a long-standing tradition and certainly not what it was in 2009*. It's not event television in the way that it once was. And how can it be? The show continues to evolve but so does the media landscape, which (along with general tastes) has changed dramatically in that time.
I personally had a lot of fun with the 13th Doctor's era (including this episode, which was a lot of fun and a great bit of escapism) and will miss it, but other than the initial boost from curiosity over the new Doctor, the return of RTD, and the 60th anniversary, I don't think Doctor Who can suddenly win over and sustain the numbers it once had. It's not appointment television for the general public. That shouldn't be read by fans as failings on the part of the production team but rather acknowledging the reality of the vast oceans of content (and formats) competing for attention.
*On a side note, I personally found "Planet of the Dead" to be pretty underwhelming at the time and leaning hard on RTD auto-pilot. I was ready for something different.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2022 16:26:52 GMT
This (version of the) show is 17 years old. A Doctor Who "Easter Special" in 2022 isn't exactly a long-standing tradition and certainly not what it was in 2009*. It's not event television in the way that it once was. And how can it be? The show continues to evolve but so does the media landscape, which (along with general tastes) has changed dramatically in that time.
I personally had a lot of fun with the 13th Doctor's era (including this episode, which was a lot of fun and a great bit of escapism) and will miss it, but other than the initial boost from curiosity over the new Doctor, the return of RTD, and the 60th anniversary, I don't think Doctor Who can suddenly win over and sustain the numbers it once had. It's not appointment television for the general public. That shouldn't be read by fans as failings on the part of the production team but rather acknowledging the reality of the vast oceans of content (and formats) competing for attention.
*On a side note, I personally found "Planet of the Dead" to be pretty underwhelming at the time and leaning hard on RTD auto-pilot. I was ready for something different.
You are 100% correct that anyone who expects numbers to be like RTDs last era is just set up to be let down (aside from the 60th and a new Doc ep) - but the numbers can be better. The show can be sold harder. The brand built more. There are a generation of kids now who didn't and do not watch current Who. RTDs talent was not just the TV side but having a team and the BBC believe that they can make the show a family one. Kids yesterday would not have had a Who Easter bunny...they would in 2008. There were toys, cheap toys everywhere. Toothbrushes, shampoo. Kids are still - to be cynical - a market that the show can hit AND skew a bit older too. My best buds kids love Minecraft and Marvel, My Little Pony and Mayazaki. Now the people watching are very much just the "we". It is not on CC or Jodie even. I always said to talk about Jodies "lost" viewers is to not take into account the many millions who watched her debut just to see the controversy. We have seen, as we did with Capaldi and to a lesser extent Matt, the series viewership decline season on season. RTD is the only one who built his. We will see how he does that this time as, like you say, the landscape is different. Then even Youtube was new-ish. Now you dont just have Netflix but Disney Plus, Apple, NBC etc etc all with properties that could feasibly have viewers that "should" be in Who demos and would have been not far back. No easy answers but like I said above there is no way in hell RTD is back on the same terms as CC or even Moffat. I would say he has some promises that the BBC are intent on making this show as massive as can be once more. As for the "special"...frankly I would have prefer they did a two-part finale as there is FAR too much to fit in to 70 mins even before Sophie and Janet were added. And ALL the classic baddies, and Vinder, and Kate and the Division, Timeless Child and..........I am done just thinkin about the pace it would need!
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 18, 2022 16:30:15 GMT
Forgive my ignorance, but it feels like you’re placing a lot more on the COVID circumstances than is necessary or warranted. It hardly had come out of thin air by this point; the script wasn’t completed until the pandemic well underway, Flux had been in the can (and showed no signs of any restrictions) and Eve of the Daleks had shown how to handle an episode with such restrictions in place. It just wasn’t a great episode regardless of any real life restraints. The plot wasn’t thorough and the guest cast hardly developed. The epilogue was lovely, and I include Dan and Di’s piece in that, but should’ve been added to a complete episode, not instead of. Ultimately that loss of running time in the episode is where we can place the “blame” on any story development. For me anyway. Given what is (rumoured, though not without feasibility) it seems LotSD's circumstances, both script and filming, were even more chaotic than Flux's, and I think it had a substantial impact here. Even when you have prior experience, you can absolutely be blindsided or overwhelmed on a production with this many moving parts. Not to mention there was probably a level of exhaustion to boot: obvious things can and do get missed trying to get to a strict deadline, and I think the end product speaks more to that than wilful incompetence or a bad starting point. I'm not saying 'you must like the ep' or that it's a get-out-of-jail card.
I wouldn't be shocked if the original script had everything in it, and things had to get cut out for any number of (unfortunate) reasons. I was just on a production where the script had everything for what was planned to be a big ending, something monumental and emotional... but so many of the team were compromised and production so rough, the end result in the edit was a crapfest. And there's no time to fix it.
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Post by tuigirl on Apr 18, 2022 20:56:57 GMT
Just watched the episode. One thing for sure, I would have LOVED and adored this as a kid. Monsters! Pirates! Cannonballs! Magical pirate ships! Sword fights! My inner 6 year old rejoiced and squeed. This would have been a total winner with me 36 years ago. As it stands now.... the story was... a bit non existent. But it looked good, there was plenty of action and I liked all the costumes. And they had a Myrka that did not suck. That has to count for something. Not a bad effort and entertaining. But certainly not anywhere near my personal favorites. And then came the trailer for next time and I was just WTF. WTF. WTF? ? ? Right. Okay, well, here we go. Not any weirder than anything BF had been doing in their cross-overs recently.
EDIT: I am still not a fan of the Doctor/ Jaz romantic side plot
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