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Post by agentten on Apr 19, 2022 0:20:34 GMT
An altogether average episode. I did think there were some great moments nestled in there. The TARDIS in the jaws of a giant sea creature was great fun to see and the moment when The Doctor and Yaz stand in the open doors of the TARDIS marveling at the beauty of the sea floor was fantastic, especially Whittaker's sense of wonder and her speech about finding new things to be amazed by even when you think you've seen it all was very Doctory. The episode was hampered by some seriously shoddy, haphazard direction. The director didn't seem to know to film basic things like establishing shots or movement shots to indicate when characters are arriving or departing a scene or moving around in the space of a scene's location, so characters were popping around awkwardly. It was as if no long shots were filmed at all. It was all just medium shots and close ups. I felt bad for the editor, trying to tie scenes together and seemingly having so little to work with because the director didn't get enough coverage. It made for jarring viewing. I'd be happy to see the back of this director. I also don't know if they're going to be able to bring the Doctor/Yaz relationship to any kind of satisfying climax or conclusion. When The Doctor told Yaz that she thought she was amazing it just fell flat to me. Considering the Doctor's previous romantic interests, who were so dynamic and full of life, Yaz just . . . isn't. She comes across really muted to me, always has. I don't dislike her, but I'm a bit baffled why the show has pushed this relationship. With River, it was always undeniable to me why the Doctor would find her captivating, and with Rose the actors had lovely chemistry, likewise with other companions that some theorize there was more to their relationship such as Jo, Sarah Jane, Romana II, and Clara. I just don't get that sense with Yaz. I'm not one who's opposed to the Doctor being in relationships, but this hasn't been built up to a level that it feels earned, in my opinion. The finale could prove me wrong, and I'm open to being proven wrong, but as it stands now I'm feeling it's a bit of a headscratcher.
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Post by thewatcher on Apr 19, 2022 7:49:36 GMT
And then came the trailer for next time and I was just WTF. WTF. WTF? ? ? Right. Okay, well, here we go. Not any weirder than anything BF had been doing in their cross-overs recently. Yes that is true it felt very much the thing Big Finish do all the time.
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Post by project37 on Apr 19, 2022 10:23:57 GMT
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Post by bonehead on Apr 19, 2022 14:19:45 GMT
As you can tell from my profile pic, I was hyped for this and of course, it wasn't as good as I'd hoped it would be. But then, you can't compare 50 minutes to six tremendous episodes from the glow of childhood nostalgia. Legend of the Sea Devils was good, I thought; not quite great. I liked it a lot; I didn't love it. As many people have said, it could have done with more time to get to know the characters.
The creatures themselves looked and sounded great, and the probable Myrka was terrific. Never has the old mantra 'always leave 'em wanting more' been so deserved. Everything about the story could have benefitted from more time. Maybe this could have even been a two-parter? As I said about Flux, however, it's incredible what they achieved during a global pandemic. I don't think Chris Chibnall gets enough credit for that.
Viewing figures? Really disappointing. However - again - the last time I remember Who being up against BGT was Silence in the Library (if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected), which got 6.27 consolidated figures against ITV's 11.52. Shall we imagine Sea Devils gets about 4.5 million final figures? Say BGT adds 3 million to make 8.2 - would that be fair (I don't know how much the talent show adds over time)? It's true both shows have shed viewers over the years (as everything has) but the talent show has fallen more than Who. Either way, Who was in an unforgiving slot.
About Jodie's impending departure, I feel the same way I feel most times a Doctor is about to leave. Sad. I will miss her. I'll miss Yaz too. I'll miss their interesting relationship even more. Again - always leave 'em wanting more.
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Post by mistfall on Apr 19, 2022 18:02:59 GMT
I agree,yaz is in mind and my wife the most boring character with no personality,and for the doctor to say if it was anyone it would be you I'm sorry not buying it.
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Post by elkawho on Apr 20, 2022 11:24:25 GMT
I agree,yaz is in mind and my wife the most boring character with no personality,and for the doctor to say if it was it would be you I'm sorry not buying it. My daughter and I had the same conversation. Especially when she compares Yaz to RIVER. Not buying it. (So maybe she said that just to be kind.) Also, wasn't this already covered by Martha and Ten?
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Post by Tim Bradley on Apr 20, 2022 12:22:30 GMT
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Post by mark687 on Apr 20, 2022 13:41:42 GMT
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Post by agentten on Apr 21, 2022 4:54:34 GMT
I agree,yaz is in mind and my wife the most boring character with no personality,and for the doctor to say if it was it would be you I'm sorry not buying it. My daughter and I had the same conversation. Especially when she compares Yaz to RIVER. Not buying it. (So maybe she said that just to be kind.) Also, wasn't this already covered by Martha and Ten? There was a very similar conversation around our house, too. We're just having trouble seeing how the Doctor feels anything romantic for Yaz because she really hasn't been depicted as such. The Ninth Doctor died for Rose, The Eleventh Doctor shared his regeneration energy in a touching and intimate moment with River, The Twelfth Doctor spent billions of years punching a wall of diamond in an infinite loop for Clara, but for Yaz all Thirteen has is a version of “It’s not you, it’s me.” Not very convincing.
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Post by ollychops on Apr 21, 2022 11:59:56 GMT
My daughter and I had the same conversation. Especially when she compares Yaz to RIVER. Not buying it. (So maybe she said that just to be kind.) Also, wasn't this already covered by Martha and Ten? There was a very similar conversation around our house, too. We're just having trouble seeing how the Doctor feels anything romantic for Yaz because she really hasn't been depicted as such. The Ninth Doctor died for Rose, The Eleventh Doctor shared his regeneration energy in a touching and intimate moment with River, The Twelfth Doctor spent billions of years punching a wall of diamond in an infinite loop for Clara, but for Yaz all Thirteen has is a version of “It’s not you, it’s me.” Not very convincing. This is my biggest issue with the Doctor and Yaz’s relationship and the era as a whole. The majority of Flux, the Doctor spent snapping at Yaz about various things and it made me wonder why she feels anything romantic for the Doctor. And it plays into Chibnall’s major flaw (in my view, at least) that he goes for “tell, not show” - it’s all very well having the Doctor saying that Yaz is the greatest person she’s known (even better than River, apparently) but we haven’t seen her do or be anything spectacular - she spends the majority of the time just standing around asking questions. She’s hardly a Rose, Amy or Donna. There’s so many aspects of this era that sound good on paper (Yaz being one of them) but the execution doesn’t do them justice, unfortunately.
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Post by elkawho on Apr 21, 2022 12:17:49 GMT
There was a very similar conversation around our house, too. We're just having trouble seeing how the Doctor feels anything romantic for Yaz because she really hasn't been depicted as such. The Ninth Doctor died for Rose, The Eleventh Doctor shared his regeneration energy in a touching and intimate moment with River, The Twelfth Doctor spent billions of years punching a wall of diamond in an infinite loop for Clara, but for Yaz all Thirteen has is a version of “It’s not you, it’s me.” Not very convincing. This is my biggest issue with the Doctor and Yaz’s relationship and the era as a whole. The majority of Flux, the Doctor spent snapping at Yaz about various things and it made me wonder why she feels anything romantic for the Doctor. And it plays into Chibnall’s major flaw (in my view, at least) that he goes for “tell, not show” - it’s all very well having the Doctor saying that Yaz is the greatest person she’s known (even better than River, apparently) but we haven’t seen her do or be anything spectacular - she spends the majority of the time just standing around asking questions. She’s hardly a Rose, Amy or Donna. There’s so many aspects of this era that sound good on paper (Yaz being one of them) but the execution doesn’t do them justice, unfortunately. YES, YES, YES This is how I'm feeling about the whole 13 era. Thank you for putting it into words for me.
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Post by bonehead on Apr 21, 2022 12:34:02 GMT
There was a very similar conversation around our house, too. We're just having trouble seeing how the Doctor feels anything romantic for Yaz because she really hasn't been depicted as such. The Ninth Doctor died for Rose, The Eleventh Doctor shared his regeneration energy in a touching and intimate moment with River, The Twelfth Doctor spent billions of years punching a wall of diamond in an infinite loop for Clara, but for Yaz all Thirteen has is a version of “It’s not you, it’s me.” Not very convincing. This is my biggest issue with the Doctor and Yaz’s relationship and the era as a whole. The majority of Flux, the Doctor spent snapping at Yaz about various things and it made me wonder why she feels anything romantic for the Doctor. And it plays into Chibnall’s major flaw (in my view, at least) that he goes for “tell, not show” - it’s all very well having the Doctor saying that Yaz is the greatest person she’s known (even better than River, apparently) but we haven’t seen her do or be anything spectacular - she spends the majority of the time just standing around asking questions. She’s hardly a Rose, Amy or Donna. There’s so many aspects of this era that sound good on paper (Yaz being one of them) but the execution doesn’t do them justice, unfortunately. True, Yaz isn't Rose, Amy (thank heaven) or Donna, but then the Doctor likes her for what she is, rather than what she does - although having said that, Yaz has been unwaveringly loyal and brave throughout. She's been snappy at Yaz because she recognises the way she feels about her and isn't comfortable with it, for reasons laid out in Legend of the Sea Devils. That's that way I see it, anyway. I like Chris Chibnall's understated way of doing things; it's a good contrast to the more flambouyant writing of RTD and to some extent, Moffat too. I like the way the relationship has been bubbling away, but is never allowed to swamp the stories. I like the way it has come to the fore now, inviting notions of 'doomed love' - but maybe that will not be the case somehow. I'm invested enough to want to know how it will play out.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 21, 2022 13:15:57 GMT
There was a very similar conversation around our house, too. We're just having trouble seeing how the Doctor feels anything romantic for Yaz because she really hasn't been depicted as such. The Ninth Doctor died for Rose, The Eleventh Doctor shared his regeneration energy in a touching and intimate moment with River, The Twelfth Doctor spent billions of years punching a wall of diamond in an infinite loop for Clara, but for Yaz all Thirteen has is a version of “It’s not you, it’s me.” Not very convincing. This is my biggest issue with the Doctor and Yaz’s relationship and the era as a whole. The majority of Flux, the Doctor spent snapping at Yaz about various things and it made me wonder why she feels anything romantic for the Doctor. And it plays into Chibnall’s major flaw (in my view, at least) that he goes for “tell, not show” - it’s all very well having the Doctor saying that Yaz is the greatest person she’s known (even better than River, apparently) but we haven’t seen her do or be anything spectacular - she spends the majority of the time just standing around asking questions. She’s hardly a Rose, Amy or Donna. There’s so many aspects of this era that sound good on paper (Yaz being one of them) but the execution doesn’t do them justice, unfortunately. Counter point slightly (I'm not convinced by the relationship BTW) but, Yaz and Dan's whole Arc in Flux has very little direct input from the Doctor. its very much driven by Yaz thinking "what would the Doctor do" so she's at least as capable as the others, but again I agree we haven't seen the Doctor see any of it to make a judgement that Yaz is more special than them. Yaz will be my most memorable of 13th's companions but that's all down to Mandip's Performance rather then story material. Regards mark687
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Post by mark687 on Apr 21, 2022 14:40:39 GMT
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Post by thewatcher on Apr 21, 2022 15:20:08 GMT
This is my biggest issue with the Doctor and Yaz’s relationship and the era as a whole. The majority of Flux, the Doctor spent snapping at Yaz about various things and it made me wonder why she feels anything romantic for the Doctor. And it plays into Chibnall’s major flaw (in my view, at least) that he goes for “tell, not show” - it’s all very well having the Doctor saying that Yaz is the greatest person she’s known (even better than River, apparently) but we haven’t seen her do or be anything spectacular - she spends the majority of the time just standing around asking questions. She’s hardly a Rose, Amy or Donna. There’s so many aspects of this era that sound good on paper (Yaz being one of them) but the execution doesn’t do them justice, unfortunately. True, Yaz isn't Rose, Amy (thank heaven) or Donna, but then the Doctor likes her for what she is, rather than what she does - although having said that, Yaz has been unwaveringly loyal and brave throughout. She's been snappy at Yaz because she recognises the way she feels about her and isn't comfortable with it, for reasons laid out in Legend of the Sea Devils. That's that way I see it, anyway. I like Chris Chibnall's understated way of doing things; it's a good contrast to the more flambouyant writing of RTD and to some extent, Moffat too. I like the way the relationship has been bubbling away, but is never allowed to swamp the stories. I like the way it has come to the fore now, inviting notions of 'doomed love' - but maybe that will not be the case somehow. I'm invested enough to want to know how it will play out. I agree with this
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Post by ollychops on Apr 21, 2022 16:50:23 GMT
This is my biggest issue with the Doctor and Yaz’s relationship and the era as a whole. The majority of Flux, the Doctor spent snapping at Yaz about various things and it made me wonder why she feels anything romantic for the Doctor. And it plays into Chibnall’s major flaw (in my view, at least) that he goes for “tell, not show” - it’s all very well having the Doctor saying that Yaz is the greatest person she’s known (even better than River, apparently) but we haven’t seen her do or be anything spectacular - she spends the majority of the time just standing around asking questions. She’s hardly a Rose, Amy or Donna. There’s so many aspects of this era that sound good on paper (Yaz being one of them) but the execution doesn’t do them justice, unfortunately. True, Yaz isn't Rose, Amy (thank heaven) or Donna, but then the Doctor likes her for what she is, rather than what she does - although having said that, Yaz has been unwaveringly loyal and brave throughout. She's been snappy at Yaz because she recognises the way she feels about her and isn't comfortable with it, for reasons laid out in Legend of the Sea Devils. That's that way I see it, anyway. I like Chris Chibnall's understated way of doing things; it's a good contrast to the more flambouyant writing of RTD and to some extent, Moffat too. I like the way the relationship has been bubbling away, but is never allowed to swamp the stories. I like the way it has come to the fore now, inviting notions of 'doomed love' - but maybe that will not be the case somehow. I'm invested enough to want to know how it will play out. That's fair. For me, I just think Chibnall expects us to take him at her words that Yaz is the greatest person she's ever met without anything to back it up. I agree that she's been loyal and brave from the start but I find it hard to believe that she matches up to Rose or River from what we've seen, but that's just my take on it. For what it's worth, I do like Yaz even though I sound like I don't. I think I'm just a bit disappointed because I feel like if the execution had been handled better (at least in my view), she'd be up there with the best of companions because I do think Mandip Gill is fantastic and does help to make Yaz really likeable. I do think that the Doctor's snappiness at Yaz is meant to be taken that she's snapping because she cares and worries about her but I think my issue is that with this current era, I don't think we've had many quiet character moments between them until recently. Most of the episodes (from memory) are straight into the plot and moving that forwards or spending the time explaining what's happening and so we're left with little time for small moments between the characters. This isn't an issue exclusive to Yaz, I felt this way with Graham and Ryan too - I've never really felt like "The Fam" were ever truly friends, especially compared with previous companion dynamics, despite Chibnall/the scripts wanting us to believe that they were. I feel like both RTD and Moffat allowed time for their different TARDIS teams to have character moments in their episodes which helped to define their dynamics and make them feel genuine. However, in saying that, I do think this has improved recently, both Eve of the Daleks and Legend of the Sea Devils gave us little moments between the characters which made it feel more genuine and it makes me wish that we'd had more moments like that throughout this era to help make the dynamics with the Doctor and companions more believable. Of course, this is just my point of view and I know that some people will disagree and they love the Fam and their dynamic. I don't want this to be like being overly negative or I'm bashing Chibnall/Yaz because I do like aspects, but I just feel like there's so much untapped potential. I have to say I do like the way that they're going forwards with the Doctor and Yaz and I think it's helping to give Yaz more depth and make her a more rounded character.
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Post by ollychops on Apr 21, 2022 16:55:38 GMT
This is my biggest issue with the Doctor and Yaz’s relationship and the era as a whole. The majority of Flux, the Doctor spent snapping at Yaz about various things and it made me wonder why she feels anything romantic for the Doctor. And it plays into Chibnall’s major flaw (in my view, at least) that he goes for “tell, not show” - it’s all very well having the Doctor saying that Yaz is the greatest person she’s known (even better than River, apparently) but we haven’t seen her do or be anything spectacular - she spends the majority of the time just standing around asking questions. She’s hardly a Rose, Amy or Donna. There’s so many aspects of this era that sound good on paper (Yaz being one of them) but the execution doesn’t do them justice, unfortunately. Counter point slightly (I'm not convinced by the relationship BTW) but, Yaz and Dan's whole Arc in Flux has very little direct input from the Doctor. its very much driven by Yaz thinking "what would the Doctor do" so she's at least as capable as the others, but again I agree we haven't seen the Doctor see any of it to make a judgement that Yaz is more special than them. Yaz will be my most memorable of 13th's companions but that's all down to Mandip's Performance rather then story material. Regards mark687 Yeah, you're right. I just don't think she stands out when you look at companions like Rose, River and Clara. I could understand why the Doctor was smitten with them because of their actions. I also do think that while Yaz has been shown to be capable in Flux and the recent episodes, there are times when the scripts have her say or do something that makes her seem more inexperienced than she should be so I don't think the stories are always consistent with how capable she's meant to be, unfortunately. But saying that, Yaz is my favourite of Thirteen's companions, but I'm in the same boat as you where it's more down to Mandip than the scripts. Although I do think that her recent developments have helped to give her some much needed depth.
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Post by bonehead on Apr 21, 2022 17:47:56 GMT
True, Yaz isn't Rose, Amy (thank heaven) or Donna, but then the Doctor likes her for what she is, rather than what she does - although having said that, Yaz has been unwaveringly loyal and brave throughout. She's been snappy at Yaz because she recognises the way she feels about her and isn't comfortable with it, for reasons laid out in Legend of the Sea Devils. That's that way I see it, anyway. I like Chris Chibnall's understated way of doing things; it's a good contrast to the more flambouyant writing of RTD and to some extent, Moffat too. I like the way the relationship has been bubbling away, but is never allowed to swamp the stories. I like the way it has come to the fore now, inviting notions of 'doomed love' - but maybe that will not be the case somehow. I'm invested enough to want to know how it will play out. That's fair. For me, I just think Chibnall expects us to take him at her words that Yaz is the greatest person she's ever met without anything to back it up. I agree that she's been loyal and brave from the start but I find it hard to believe that she matches up to Rose or River from what we've seen, but that's just my take on it. For what it's worth, I do like Yaz even though I sound like I don't. I think I'm just a bit disappointed because I feel like if the execution had been handled better (at least in my view), she'd be up there with the best of companions because I do think Mandip Gill is fantastic and does help to make Yaz really likeable. I do think that the Doctor's snappiness at Yaz is meant to be taken that she's snapping because she cares and worries about her but I think my issue is that with this current era, I don't think we've had many quiet character moments between them until recently. Most of the episodes (from memory) are straight into the plot and moving that forwards or spending the time explaining what's happening and so we're left with little time for small moments between the characters. This isn't an issue exclusive to Yaz, I felt this way with Graham and Ryan too - I've never really felt like "The Fam" were ever truly friends, especially compared with previous companion dynamics, despite Chibnall/the scripts wanting us to believe that they were. I feel like both RTD and Moffat allowed time for their different TARDIS teams to have character moments in their episodes which helped to define their dynamics and make them feel genuine. However, in saying that, I do think this has improved recently, both Eve of the Daleks and Legend of the Sea Devils gave us little moments between the characters which made it feel more genuine and it makes me wish that we'd had more moments like that throughout this era to help make the dynamics with the Doctor and companions more believable. Of course, this is just my point of view and I know that some people will disagree and they love the Fam and their dynamic. I don't want this to be like being overly negative or I'm bashing Chibnall/Yaz because I do like aspects, but I just feel like there's so much untapped potential. I have to say I do like the way that they're going forwards with the Doctor and Yaz and I think it's helping to give Yaz more depth and make her a more rounded character. To respond to the highlighted part of your post in particular, Yaz is the greatest person this Doctor has ever met, is perhaps the message being sent out. I'd have no problem with that assessment.
I'd agree with your other point that we haven't had any quiet moments until recently. One of the many things I love about Flux is the relationship between Vindar and Kate (rumoured at the time to be the Doctor's parents or some such, and turned out to be a massive tease) - these two characters had more emotional, quieter moments than the TARDIS team ever have.
As an aside, it's very nice to have such civilised debates about what is quite a divisive time for the show. On Facebook, I was told that people (like me) who enjoy current Doctor Who are causing more hate and hostility than the 'true fans' who take time to scrutinize, criticise and are very vocal about their abhorrence of Chibnall, Whittaker etc. Absolutely I appreciate that we all have differing points of view - which is a good thing - but it is so good to come here where all disagreements are handled with such good heart.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 21, 2022 19:58:51 GMT
While the effects are inconsistent, I will say this: the Super Mario jump the Sea Devil does to the ghost ship is something I kind of like, insofar as 1) How unapologetically silly it looks and 2) If Classic Who had CG, I could see it doing this and looking exactly like that.
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Post by ollychops on Apr 21, 2022 22:15:04 GMT
That's fair. For me, I just think Chibnall expects us to take him at her words that Yaz is the greatest person she's ever met without anything to back it up. I agree that she's been loyal and brave from the start but I find it hard to believe that she matches up to Rose or River from what we've seen, but that's just my take on it. For what it's worth, I do like Yaz even though I sound like I don't. I think I'm just a bit disappointed because I feel like if the execution had been handled better (at least in my view), she'd be up there with the best of companions because I do think Mandip Gill is fantastic and does help to make Yaz really likeable. I do think that the Doctor's snappiness at Yaz is meant to be taken that she's snapping because she cares and worries about her but I think my issue is that with this current era, I don't think we've had many quiet character moments between them until recently. Most of the episodes (from memory) are straight into the plot and moving that forwards or spending the time explaining what's happening and so we're left with little time for small moments between the characters. This isn't an issue exclusive to Yaz, I felt this way with Graham and Ryan too - I've never really felt like "The Fam" were ever truly friends, especially compared with previous companion dynamics, despite Chibnall/the scripts wanting us to believe that they were. I feel like both RTD and Moffat allowed time for their different TARDIS teams to have character moments in their episodes which helped to define their dynamics and make them feel genuine. However, in saying that, I do think this has improved recently, both Eve of the Daleks and Legend of the Sea Devils gave us little moments between the characters which made it feel more genuine and it makes me wish that we'd had more moments like that throughout this era to help make the dynamics with the Doctor and companions more believable. Of course, this is just my point of view and I know that some people will disagree and they love the Fam and their dynamic. I don't want this to be like being overly negative or I'm bashing Chibnall/Yaz because I do like aspects, but I just feel like there's so much untapped potential. I have to say I do like the way that they're going forwards with the Doctor and Yaz and I think it's helping to give Yaz more depth and make her a more rounded character. To respond to the highlighted part of your post in particular, Yaz is the greatest person this Doctor has ever met, is perhaps the message being sent out. I'd have no problem with that assessment.
I'd agree with your other point that we haven't had any quiet moments until recently. One of the many things I love about Flux is the relationship between Vindar and Kate (rumoured at the time to be the Doctor's parents or some such, and turned out to be a massive tease) - these two characters had more emotional, quieter moments than the TARDIS team ever have.
As an aside, it's very nice to have such civilised debates about what is quite a divisive time for the show. On Facebook, I was told that people (like me) who enjoy current Doctor Who are causing more hate and hostility than the 'true fans' who take time to scrutinize, criticise and are very vocal about their abhorrence of Chibnall, Whittaker etc. Absolutely I appreciate that we all have differing points of view - which is a good thing - but it is so good to come here where all disagreements are handled with such good heart.
In regards to the bolded, that's actually a very good point. Sometimes I forget that different incarnations are going to see things differently. That's what I've loved about Eve and Legend, both episodes have had moments for our main characters to have little moments between each other and it gives so much more realism and depth to their dynamics. I really hope that the next special follows on with this trend and we get some lovely moments before we say goodbye to Thirteen. Yes, it's nice to have civilised discussion about it! I think there are people on both sides that have strong opinions and it can spiral into something nasty so it's nice to have a calm discussion about it and see other points of view - like I said further up, your comment about Thirteen's view of Yaz is something I hadn't considered so it's always good to get a differing opinion. Even though I can be a bit critical of the current era, I still do enjoy the show and think Whittaker and co are great, so it's not out of any malice - more so because I adore the show and I see so much potential in Chibnall's vision for it. And even if there's bits I don't enjoy as much, I try and focus more on the positives than the negatives. So thank you for this discussion and your views, it's certainly given me some food for thought!
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