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Post by tuigirl on Jan 22, 2022 20:32:40 GMT
Right, going off on a pretty huge tangent.
Maybe it is just me being in a critical mood, or maybe I am seeing (hearing) things, so if inappropriate, feel free to lock the thread.
Anyways. I have been on a hiatus from BF for about a year now, going back to some of the German dramas and now seeing them basically side by side in comparison. I also compare with all the previous stories from BF.
Yes, I admit I am not completely in the loop. But the few BF stories I listened to in the past year, most of them I had the same issues with.
They lack a certain spark of originality. Maybe it is just me, but Stranded 3, Missy, River Song, UNIT, and now Charlotte Pollard..... some of these stories/ settings/ ideas.... don't they just look a bit samey? Certain elements just keep repeating. And not even in any new fun and original ways. I miss the times when they did really cool experimental stuff. Bold, shocking, heart-breaking.
Also.... it is slowly getting a bit much with all the over the top self-referencing, pop-culture referencing, or meta-joke making. Seriously? Some of these episodes have whole scenes that are nothing but self-referencing seemingly clever "did you spot what I did there". Yes, it is fun. Yes, I am laughing. But, can we concentrate at the story at hand? Please?
Look, I do not want to sound like the grumpy lady from the woods. I do not want to rain on anyone's parade. I apologize if I do. But I still have the hope I am not the only one seeing (hearing) these things?
I am also a huge fan of this 40 year old still running German audio series, and it also does things like that. It became quite an epidemic a while back when they thought they were very clever referencing all the old stories, and "see what we did there, remember, 30 years ago"? I am happy to report they have toned it down since then. Listeners were getting a bit fed up with it. Now, for the most part, we are back to just getting along with the stories. But for some reason, I see the same thing now happening in Who. Talking about having a Deja Vu.
Yes, if there is a huge popular cultural icon, that everybody knows and loves, of course it will get referenced and of course it will be meta with itself. That is not the issue. It is more the "too much of a good thing".
Also, just a random side observation. Most of the performers for Big Finish are not audio only performers. They do other stuff, like act in TV and movies. Am I right?
In the German audio landscape, most of the most famous performers ONLY do audio work. Most of them do dubbing for all the English speaking shows. Everything remotely foreign is dubbed in Germany. But I think I can make out a difference between my favorite German audio performers and my BF heroes.
I think India Fisher comes close to what the German audio performers do. And I imagine I can hear a similar vibe from her. I love McGann to bits, but sometimes I can just tell that he is not really there.
India Fisher and also Colin (!!!) always make their audio presence felt.
Still.... my favorite German performers are true masters of their craft. They can (and do) sound like teenagers in the long running drama series, they act as hard boiled detectives, old vicious men, and one of them is even the German voice of Gollum from Lord of the Rings. You know the actor. You have grown up with him, his voice haunted you since you were a little kid. And still, he makes you believe that he also is all these other people, vicious, dark, monstrous, happy, cheerful, beaten old man and clever teenager. Maybe I am too limited to BF and the roles these actors perform for BF. But somehow, I am totally missing that enormous range in most of the performers here.
I really love when an actor plays against his type, and I also love the wonderful meta storytelling when the writers know the expectations of the audience, and they use the actor in that way, and then out of nowhere, they completely subvert it. Bam! Colin Baker in that Dark Shadows episode? Genius!
That junior detective every German loves, in a new adult crime story, hunting down the bad guys, using exactly the voice he does for all his junior detective stories.... and then Bam! suddenly juicy NSFW sex scene.
No one expected that. Most reviews on Amazon say "Man, I would never have guessed the man had such energy!"
Maybe it has just been too long for BF to be able to surprise me.
Anyways, thanks for bearing with me on my tangent. Now carry on. Or maybe let me know what you think, or give me a stern talk, or share your ideas and impressions.
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Post by ollychops on Jan 22, 2022 22:52:00 GMT
To be honest, even before they got the New Who license, BF had an issue with this. At once point (2008ish?) the Main Range started feeling very stale and there seemed to be a lot of sequels to Classic serials just for the sake of it rather than actually telling an interesting story. Luckily the MR did seem to pick back up towards the end, but I think it's history repeating itself now they've got the New Who license. Also, the problem is that BF has so much output that some of it is bound to feel samey or be more average.
I do think the earlier BF stuff was far more captivating because they were more interesting/experimental and I know the change in that isn't completely down to BF - with New Who on TV they had to adapt to fit with the BBC so I don't lay the blame at BF's door.
I have to admit that I haven't been keeping up with BF releases quite as much as I used to. I don't find it quite as much "must-listen to" as much as I used to. I'm not sure whether that's entirely because it's down to the stories themselves or if I'm just not feeling it as much at the moment.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 22, 2022 22:58:45 GMT
So this has been a bug bear of mine for a while. I think Big Finish is getting too reliant on stories built around continuity.
Remember when Big Finish first got the new series licence? Stuff like Jago & Litefoot interacting with Strax, Kate Stewart confronting the Nestene Consciousness, classic Doctors meeting foes unique to the new series and David bloody Tennant returning were all a genuine novelty. I think Big Finish have been stuck trying to keep that novelty going. So now almost every release has to A Gimmick. It’s no longer enough to be a story, they have to be the most epic crossover in the history of crossovers.
I get that sales are almost certainly a factor. (For example we know that Benny sales hit rock bottom and so they brought in Seventh Doctor & Ace and then the Unbound Doctor.) I’m sure Out of Time is printing Big Finish money. And beyond that I’m sure writers love playing in the continuity toybox and I’m sure the social media guy loves the “OMG 😱😱😱” reactions every cover reveal gets. But I’m just over saturated on it.
There’s another factor, which might be on me more than anything else. There’s a lot of Big Finish content where my reaction is it’s just fine, entertained me for the runtime, but I will probably never give a second thought. The latest Charlotte Pollard set was exactly that, Susan’s War (which I heard earlier in the week) was similar as was Missy 3, and, aside from a few standouts, that’s been my experience of Stranded and Ravenous before it. Maybe it’s just because the same writers popping up so much that's making their styles too familiar to me. (I know Big Finish always say they’re hunting for new talent, and certainly have on the producer side of things, but it is undeniable that a lot of the same writers pop up a lot.) Going through the early main range lately kinda threw this sense about modern stuff into a sharper focus for me.
I’m not saying they still don’t make good things. The Ninth Doctor material seems to have brought out the best in the contributors, I loved the first War Doctor Begins story (Light the Flame), Dalek Universe did actually had some depth beneath the continuity (though I did feel it ditched it for a blockbuster ending), Torchwood monthlies are consistently great (and continuity-lite funnily enough) and I loved The Year of Martha Jones. Maybe I just need to be much more selective going forward.
I think, as I did about this time last year, I just need to take a break from Big Finish’s Doctor Who for a bit. I’ve got some Captain Scarlet and Sherlock Holmes to work through in meantime, plus some BBC Audio Fourth Doctor stuff. Anyway this is a bit longer rant than I meant but sod it I’ve written it now.
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Post by ollychops on Jan 22, 2022 23:12:43 GMT
There’s a lot of Big Finish content where my reaction is it’s just fine, entertained me for the runtime, but I will probably never give a second thought. I think this is my issue with BF content at the moment, and I especially felt this during the Fifth Doctor: Forty set. It was fun enough but nothing particularly stood out or made it memorable for me.
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Post by stcoop on Jan 22, 2022 23:49:36 GMT
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Post by mark687 on Jan 22, 2022 23:50:04 GMT
Slight tangent but a consequence of the Boxset format is now everything seems to need a Hook for it. It can't just be a good random one-off story anymore.
On the main point the New series spin-off and Doc Chronicles material highlights the aspects and styles of characters and eras that BF think will have the widest audience appeal (Granted those aspects and style are repetitive).
Regards
mark687
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Post by Whovitt on Jan 23, 2022 1:23:33 GMT
I've also been finding it difficult to get that invested in many of the recent releases. For every announcement that I feel a buzz of excitement for (e.g. Harry and the Ice Warriors in the latest UNIT set), there are probably half a dozen announcements that are just kind of "meh". For the first time, I'm not actively looking forward to the majority of this year's releases. I'll just be getting them because that's what I do.
I fear the change to box sets has brought with it the necessity of gimmicks. Look at the Classic Who box set info we have for this year:
1st Doc - Reportedly the first full-cast One/Dodo stories 2nd Doc - Post-War Games exploration, with recast Doctor 3rd Doc - Multi-Doc with post-War Games Two and Jamie, and first BF seven-parter 4th Doc - First series without a regular companion, as well as a Master story 5th Doc - Where to begin? Every TV companion bar Peri, the Brig, Cybermen (specifically Tomb sequel), Ice Warriors, and Autons 6th Doc - New companion 7th Doc - Cybermen and The Ribos Operation sequel (because...............)
So far, there isn't a single "generic"/not-featuring-a-returning-element/not-a-BF-first story or idea in there. True, we don't have story details for the Sixth Doctor stuff, nor details on the second sets for Three and Seven, but the vast majority of this year's stories feature either returning elements or first-evers for Big Finish. And, counterintuitively, it's just really boring to see. In the Main Range, you might get 9 or 10 releases a year that didn't feature returning elements/gimmicks. The opposite seems to be true now.
I think I might just be burnt out on the Who front. I listened to the first series of Star Cops earlier this week and absolutely loved it, so it's clearly not that I'm getting sick of Big Finish as a whole. On the contrary, the vast majority of their non-Who releases go down well with me. So maybe I need to force myself to take a break from the Who stuff and refresh my batteries. As a creature of habit though, this will be pretty difficult. I've been listening to every new release as it comes out since about mid-2015. Still, it might actually be for the best if I try. I guess I'll have to see how my resolve holds up...
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Post by masterdoctor on Jan 23, 2022 1:34:25 GMT
I will say I have been in this position before, and a break truly was what I needed. Even Main Range stories with no continuity connection didn’t excite me. It was a great chance for me to jump into non-Who ranges for the first time. With that if anyone needs some suggestions for non-Who ranges I recommend…
- Star Cops - The Omega Factor - The Prisoner - Torchwood(the monthly range felt removed enough for me. - Survivors
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Post by bonehead on Jan 23, 2022 2:18:18 GMT
I will say I have been in this position before, and a break truly was what I needed. Even Main Range stories with no continuity connection didn’t excite me. It was a great chance for me to jump into non-Who ranges for the first time. With that if anyone needs some suggestions for non-Who ranges I recommend… - Star Cops - The Omega Factor - The Prisoner - Torchwood(the monthly range felt removed enough for me. - Survivors I would agree with this. Regarding the amount of Doctor Who available from Big Finish, there will often be a kind if burn-out every so often. Having said that, I'm attempting the Commemorative Listen at the moment and there might be a few misses in those earlier releases, but they certainly dare to tread new ground in a way they don't 'these days'. These monthly releases boasted all-new writers for well over a year, with some original tales being told regularly. I hear that after a long break,the Seventh Doctor is back soon. What do his stories involve to mark his return? One featuring more Cybermen, and another one where he returns to Ribos. I'm not nearly so mean-spirited as I sound, and of course returnees attract more buyers, but there is definitely too much X Meets Y, or self-referencing going on for my liking, and this has eased me into listening (or re-listening) more to other ranges.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2022 9:49:46 GMT
In the German audio landscape, most of the most famous performers ONLY do audio work.
Most of them do dubbing for all the English speaking shows. Everything remotely foreign is dubbed in Germany. But I think I can make out a difference between my favorite German audio performers and my BF heroes.
I think India Fisher comes close to what the German audio performers do. And I imagine I can hear a similar vibe from her. I love McGann to bits, but sometimes I can just tell that he is not really there.
India Fisher and also Colin (!!!) always make their audio presence felt.
Still.... my favorite German performers are true masters of their craft. They can (and do) sound like teenagers in the long running drama series, they act as hard boiled detectives, old vicious men, and one of them is even the German voice of Gollum from Lord of the Rings. You know the actor. You have grown up with him, his voice haunted you since you were a little kid. And still, he makes you believe that he also is all these other people, vicious, dark, monstrous, happy, cheerful, beaten old man and clever teenager. I guess the closest America comes is Funimation? (Question open for everyone, I was just quoting my inspiration for it.)
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Post by glutamodo on Jan 23, 2022 11:35:33 GMT
I got into BF initially because I wanted to hear how Colin Baker/Sixie did on audio. I think at that time I mostly listened while walking... (I used to walk a LOT for exercise. Then I got old and fat and now walking is more of a chore than anything) Anyway, my work commute is 82 miles each way, on rural highways, and I often fill in that time by listening to audio drama. I dipped into BF at first with a couple of illicit downloads, (ack!), but I replaced all of that with paid for copies, hell I over-bought! I've only listened to a few Torchwood and Dark Shadows titles but I own almost all of them plus some stuff like Avengers that I thought I would get around to but haven't. I just checked and I own well over 1300 BF titles with 59 pre-orders. And I have listened to the entirety of their DW output up to a year or so ago. Was I a huge fan of it though??? Hmmmm... not sure. I do now think that it was time for the main (monthly) range to end. Most recently of DW related, I have liked Stranded and the Wars (War Doc Begins, War Master) I've also followed Benny all the way through except the last couple of audiobooks. But of late, I often find myself driving along content with the sound of the engine. I have tried to mix it up over the years, Bafflegab, some other audiobooks and then there are American offerings like Colonial Radio Theatre and Imagination Theatre plus some podcasts like Tin Dog and others. But I did listen to the BF/DW Main Range all the through to the end. And I pre-ordered this years upcoming DW titles... but when I did so, I had this thought in the back of my head that maybe I should stop buying BF for a while. And when I got the email about the Pollard box dropping a couple of days ago, I was kind of shocked to see I had not pre-ordered it! I can't remember when that last happened on a title that I was thinking about getting... The old MP3 player that I use to listen to these, has hundreds of hours of unheard audio on it. The main drive is full and the micro-SD card is getting there.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 23, 2022 13:21:09 GMT
I agree, the forced continuity is one of the problems. Yes, some of these stories are great and I loved them to bits. Examples of heavy continuity X meets Y stories that have blown my mind: R & J, Jago and Litefoot and Strax, Finale of Ravenous, Daughter of the Gods- these were original, epic and have become classics in my mind. So yes, it is possible to do the whole continuity thing and still get amazing stories out of it. I even was quite happy with the UNIT vs. The Eleven story. That was nothing of a revelation, but it was still fresh enough for my taste. To be honest, that UNIT set might be one of the best BF things I listened to recently.
But thing is, and here I agree with the point- there is too many and most of them are "meh". River meeting Jago? It was fun, but I had expected more. I had the same feeling for a lot of other stories like that.
The latest 5th Doctor set was mentioned- when it was first presented, I read the blurb and it just sounded to me like another one of "these" stories. I have been not the biggest fan of the 5th Doctor to begin with, but his last stories in the main range and the box set with Marc, that was fantastic material and I loved it. First time ever I was excited for 5. But the 40 boxset? It just left me cold, and reading the lukewarm reports here, I just give it a miss.
Good point about that now it is boxsets, they need a handle.
That could well be true. I was very happy pre-ordering the 3rd Doctor boxsets because these had always been great value. I love the era. I even loved the River meets UNIT set. But as soon as I saw that the 2nd Doctor would be involved, and that the second Doctor was recast and Frazer was not happy about it.... it left a bad taste in my mouth. We will see how good it will be, but I do have my suspicions.
However, that handle thing works. I was not interested in Peladon at all, but then there is Colin Baker! Bam, of course I needed to get it. At least with Peladon I have high hopes that it will be one of the better releases.
Big question is- how long can they continue to do this and how long will casual customers be happy to buy these things (Buy it! It has Tennant in it!) until they catch on that it is basically just clever self-references squeezed into a paper thin plot? It certainly is not something that would work in the long run?
I like weird and wonderful and strange and original and unusual and crazy characters/ settings/ ideas (I also enjoy Bafflegab) and I loved the early BF experimental releases. Yes, of course it could be the BBC forbidding the more experimental stuff. It could also be that Tennant meets XYZ just sells better. Both possible.
I do however agree on SOME of the Torchwood releases. They still manage to surprise me. However, there are also some tropes that keep repeating in Torchwood over and over. The hero that seemingly is beaten and destroyed by the villain, and then there is this big twist- NO!, actually the hero is the bigger and more vicious monster? Honestly. How often has that plot now happened in Torchwood? I do not have many Torchwood releases, but it is telling when 3 (!!) of the ones I have work exactly like this. It is fine if this happens when Billis Manger is involved, but in his case, I know beforehand that he is the monster and I just wait anxiously for him to strike. He is FUN.
Another thing... the two Torchwood boxsets featuring Andy and the annoying guy from the 50s. Is it just me, or is the basic plot EXACTLY the same? Yes, the problems/ zombie plague is slightly different, but the resolution does sound familiar. Luckily, all the padding and character stuff is fun and engaging and exciting and the annoying guy is bearable, so I will hold back on too much criticism.
Yes, agreed, taking a break and listening to other stuff is a good idea. This is why I got out my huge collection of German audio drama and also bought into a few new series. It is a change of pace. For example, most German audio drama features a narrator. Rarely, there is no narrator, and I am always surprised when the narrator is missing.
I like hearing all the German audio talent in different roles (fact is, the best actors will be cast in many different roles, and there is fun playing around with having a "typical" hero play a villain and vice versa. I LOVED the German version of Jakyll and Hyde, where the actor who normally does heroic detective and narrator of fantasy and childrens stories, also does the monster voices. He is an exceptional talent).
Yes, some of these series also have the same issues the English ones have. There is always a stretch when it becomes repetitive and samey and too reliant on self referencing. Some of it became tedious.
But I am happy to report that at least my favorite series always have saved themselves so far and climbed to new highs.
Some of the long- running German series have a different problem- they are still recorded in an analog old fashioned studio. They only just changed it around because of remote recording in the pandemic. The sound effects are VERY old. Yes, indeed, some of the sound effects have NOT changed for the past 30 years (road noise, bird song, car breaks screeching, gun shots...).
I am TIRED of hearing the same sounds over and over. Yes, they have improved on the stories, and the first digital 3D headphone audio special release had a great story and fantastic performances and it was a real joy. But the same old sound effects? Come on! Get some recording equipment and stand on a busy road and record a few new road noises, how hard can it be?
I have tickets in 2 weeks time for the latest 3D audio show (it will later be released on CD as a boxset and also for Streaming). It is presented in a specially designed room, with light effects, and will be an amazing 3D audio experience. Sadly, there are only a handful venues in all of Germany, so I will have to drive 2 hours to get there. But from what other fans said, it is amazing. I have read the book first, so I know the story is top notch, and I know these performers always give 200%.
I hope this will bring some more spark and excitement into my audio drama hobby, and some enjoyment.
Just to mix it up and trying out new things.
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Post by theillusiveman on Jan 24, 2022 6:59:45 GMT
You know reading this thread makes me think that one of the main issues i have with Big Finish's Doctor Who output is
Whats the direction for Big Finish Doctor Who and The Doctors?
I Know that its fine to plug the gap between stories and such but why should we be invested? Is Big Finish going to put The Doctors through Character Arcs or explore different sides of the character?
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Post by nitronine on Jan 24, 2022 14:23:09 GMT
I did have a long post explaining my thoughts but I feel like it was overly negative (especially in regards to the new UNIT set when in fairness my concerns may well be resolved by the end of box 4) when my actual views are less negative and more boredom. But my main point just boiled down to that crossovers aren’t necessarily the issue, it’s more that it seems more like writers are being told to make an X meets X story because it’ll sell well and doing the best they can rather than the ideas coming because they think it’d make a good story. Not that all the crossovers felt like that, but it seems like a much higher proportion than it used to be.
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Post by pawntake on Jan 24, 2022 15:50:15 GMT
GIMMICKRY IS THE KEY WORD!(an array or profusion of gimmicks) HERE IS JUST ONE SUCH GIMMICK! X MEETS Y FOR THE VERY 1ST TIME !MY CUP RUNNETH OVER WIH GREAT EXCITEMENT,I TREMBLE IN ANTICIPATION,I PRE-ORDER ONLY TO FIND OUT LATER,THAT X DOES IN-FACT MEET Y BUT ONLY IN ONE STORY FROM A FOUR STORY BOXSET ANNOYING TO SAY THE LEAST! Won't stop me pre-ordering stuff but i can see where people are coming from.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 24, 2022 16:32:27 GMT
You know reading this thread makes me think that one of the main issues i have with Big Finish's Doctor Who output is Whats the direction for Big Finish Doctor Who and The Doctors? I Know that its fine to plug the gap between stories and such but why should we be invested? Is Big Finish going to put The Doctors through Character Arcs or explore different sides of the character? i mean, hasn't that always been the pitch of these stories? Fleshing out weaker parts of Classic Who is what built their rep in the first place - making 6 mellower, 7 less cruel and 5 more internally conflicted than the pushover he was sometimes on TV (mainly to inconsistent writing) and it seems to have worked fine for the last two decades and counting.
Maybe a better question is 'Okay, they've done all that, but what now? What else can be done with Classic Who beyond refinements and meta humour? Is there even something else that can be done, and would the BF audience go for it?'
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 24, 2022 16:37:11 GMT
I think it is worth asking if some of this is not also an audience thing - BF being niche means maybe a closer bond between company and fan, and so the continuity gorging and wink-wink jokes is seen as 'paying back the fans who stayed with us because they know x or y and so will be giddy if we do it'.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 24, 2022 18:20:19 GMT
I think it is worth asking if some of this is not also an audience thing - BF being niche means maybe a closer bond between company and fan, and so the continuity gorging and wink-wink jokes is seen as 'paying back the fans who stayed with us because they know x or y and so will be giddy if we do it'. There is too much of a good thing. For me, the point is reached about now....
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 24, 2022 18:27:29 GMT
You know reading this thread makes me think that one of the main issues i have with Big Finish's Doctor Who output is Whats the direction for Big Finish Doctor Who and The Doctors? I Know that its fine to plug the gap between stories and such but why should we be invested? Is Big Finish going to put The Doctors through Character Arcs or explore different sides of the character? i mean, hasn't that always been the pitch of these stories? Fleshing out weaker parts of Classic Who is what built their rep in the first place - making 6 mellower, 7 less cruel and 5 more internally conflicted than the pushover he was sometimes on TV (mainly to inconsistent writing) and it seems to have worked fine for the last two decades and counting.
Maybe a better question is 'Okay, they've done all that, but what now? What else can be done with Classic Who beyond refinements and meta humour? Is there even something else that can be done, and would the BF audience go for it?'
Well, 10 years ago we thought the same about our long running German audio series. There was a lot of meta stuff, a lot of clever continuity, and a ton of character jokes from the actors that bled through from the live shows.
And the stories got sloppy and more shallow. I also could not imagine what more they could do.
But somehow, they managed. the past few years, stories got stronger again and we get some shaking up and for some weird reason, after around 250 episodes, they still find some new and clever ideas.
So yeah, it is possible.
But of course Who has a much longer history and a much much broader setting (that alone should care for range of stories!) and of course there are many more episodes and stories already told. I sometimes get the feeling it gets bogged down a lot by continuity and character constraints and is weighted down by it's history.
Having some Unbound stories or even the Fugitive Doctor removed from these constraints would breathe so much fresh air into the stories!
I do not think the ship is going down just yet. There will be more great stories. But maybe there will be less of them.
Or maybe we will be surprised and blown away.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 24, 2022 18:41:29 GMT
I think it speaks for itself that stuff like Dalek Universe, Doom Coalition and the Marc arc has done well. Like they’ve got the crossover/continuity/gimmicky elements in them, but that’s all secondary to the story they’re actually telling.
So it feels as though they’re just part of this greater story that BF want to tell rather than the entire concept of a boxset being based around “how about we do x meets y” and then build a story around that.
Honestly I think the best way forward for the classic Doctors would be a format like Dalek Universe. 3x3 boxsets as year, with an interconnected story/character arc which maybe features one or two returning elements but they’re integrated into the overall plot rather than just being a standalone sequel for the sake of a gimmick. This isn’t me saying BF should stop doing standalone stuff, but I just think it would give the Classic Doctors more direction particularly when using original companions.
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