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Post by Trace on Jan 20, 2016 2:52:15 GMT
All true! I know some people felt disappointed by Maggie in this series, because she leads the uprising. I've defended her actions before so I will again. This is a Maggie who has been tormented in one way or another by the supernatural since the black and white episodes! She decided to fight back in Kingdom of the Dead, and this is the result. I can totally see her motivations--and when dealing with vampires, witches, and werewolves, there is no such thing as "too extreme", It's the same as Amy, only Maggie's torment lasted much longer.
Edit: off to listen to Ep. 6...is this the episode with MY favorite return and line: "I know what you're all thinking: Where DID she get those SHOES?!?!?"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 3:24:03 GMT
All true! I know some people felt disappointed by Maggie in this series, because she leads the uprising. I've defended her actions before so I will again. This is a Maggie who has been tormented in one way or another by the supernatural since the black and white episodes! She decided to fight back in Kingdom of the Dead, and this is the result. I can totally see her motivations--and when dealing with vampires, witches, and werewolves, there is no such thing as "too extreme", It's the same as Amy, only Maggie's torment lasted much longer. Edit: off to listen to Ep. 6...is this the episode with MY favorite return and line: "I know what you're all thinking: Where DID she get those SHOES?!?!?" Boy, my reading of Maggie in this is different than yours I appreciate what you're giving as reasons for her attitudes and actions but for me she's become a monster to fight the monsters. From her point of view she's defending "normal" people when she's throwing her own sense of humanity away to do so. She's become hateful and in many ways much more dangerous than any of the foes she faces. I think we can all understand why she is now the vigilante but that doesn't mean we need like her for it. She's given into her bigotry and embraced a lynch-mob mentality. Maggie is now very much off the mindset that to be different is to be the enemy and that's not something I'd defend. I think part of Bloodlust is her redemption as a person as much as it is anything else. She's had a hell of a life but the so have the very people she's willing to persecute. It's a fascinating use of a long standing character. The monsters in Collinsport circa 1983 are not limited to the supernatural ones
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Post by kimalysong on Jan 20, 2016 3:34:52 GMT
Well I like what was said in this episode things aren't black and white and that goes for the characters motivations whether solely human or supernatural.
I may have to begrudgingly admit that might have been true for Andrew too.
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Post by omega on Jan 20, 2016 3:35:13 GMT
I wonder if when Seraph gave her the awareness of the supernatural activity in Collinsport, he somehow implanted Maggie with what would develop into the lynch mob mentality. It's commendable Maggie wants to be proactive, but Collinsport is so deep set in shadow that the only way to escape the monsters is to leave, and she refused that option in Kingdom of the Dead. Maggie has lost her innocence, and she's become a much harsher person for it. All this anger and confusion appears very convenient, and no one is thinking about the mine up at Collinwood...
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Post by randomjc on Jan 20, 2016 3:45:09 GMT
There is a point in episodes 3 and 4 where I start to not stand Maggie. This really lasts up until her redemption in the last half of the series. In episode 6 you see it perfectly. When Quentin confronts her. Telling her it's not all black and white, and she keeps "raging" against the monsters, how they need to be stopped. When he points out that Tommy is one of those monsters, she has to stop, she barely attempts to refute it, and instead attacks Quentin's character. (However true they may be.)
Her actions may be reasonable in her own experiences, but she refuses to accept that her course of action would lead to innocents being killed, like Tommy. This is not a healthy path she is going down, and as such, no good will come of it.
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Post by omega on Jan 20, 2016 3:46:46 GMT
Well I like what was said in this episode things aren't black and white and that goes for the characters motivations whether solely human or supernatural. I may have to begrudgingly admit that might have been true for Andrew too. Did Andrew have any redeeming qualities? I suppose he could be charming when he wanted to be (usually when he wanted something) and he didn't have a cruel or sadistic streak. However he have a habit of wanting to use people, could be patronising, was deceptive, unable to accept his own flaws (gambling debts he intended to fix with magic) and emotionally abusing Harry (based on what little we hear of their interaction, it's not hard to see why Harry feels the way he did). He's not evil or malicious, but he's no saint either. Not hard to see why Harry's mother left him (what do we actually know about poor Mrs Cunningham?).
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Post by Trace on Jan 20, 2016 4:13:12 GMT
All true! I know some people felt disappointed by Maggie in this series, because she leads the uprising. I've defended her actions before so I will again. This is a Maggie who has been tormented in one way or another by the supernatural since the black and white episodes! She decided to fight back in Kingdom of the Dead, and this is the result. I can totally see her motivations--and when dealing with vampires, witches, and werewolves, there is no such thing as "too extreme", It's the same as Amy, only Maggie's torment lasted much longer. Edit: off to listen to Ep. 6...is this the episode with MY favorite return and line: "I know what you're all thinking: Where DID she get those SHOES?!?!?" Boy, my reading of Maggie in this is different than yours I appreciate what you're giving as reasons for her attitudes and actions but for me she's become a monster to fight the monsters. From her point of view she's defending "normal" people when she's throwing her own sense of humanity away to do so. She's become hateful and in many ways much more dangerous than any of the foes she faces. I think we can all understand why she is now the vigilante but that doesn't mean we need like her for it. She's given into her bigotry and embraced a lynch-mob mentality. Maggie is now very much off the mindset that to be different is to be the enemy and that's not something I'd defend. I think part of Bloodlust is her redemption as a person as much as it is anything else. She's had a hell of a life but the so have the very people she's willing to persecute. It's a fascinating use of a long standing character. The monsters in Collinsport circa 1983 are not limited to the supernatural ones Well, yes...I see what you're saying. Do you watch The Walking Dead? There are some characters who take the stance of humanity--they won't take a life, because every life is precious. There are others who kill to survive--both walkers and humans who threaten their way of life. The only reason that I don't call this bigotry (like we have in the 'real world'). The world that the characters now face in The Walking Dead and in Dark Shadows are fighting a new kind of war. It's a matter of survival. {Spoiler for TV series} Did you think Maggie lost her humanity all those years ago when Barnabas wanted her dead--and tried very hard to make that happen?? It was actually the worst case of prolonged human torture that I had ever seen on TV. Can you blame her for going to his coffin in daytime and attempting to stake him? I cheered when she found her strength, though she was so physically weakened and dying!
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Post by Trace on Jan 20, 2016 4:17:47 GMT
Edit: off to listen to Ep. 6...is this the episode with MY favorite return and line: "I know what you're all thinking: Where DID she get those SHOES?!?!?" Nope--just finished Ep. 6 and this line wasn't in it. Must be Ep. 7. Loved how the action is amped up here and much is starting to really happen. I think the various character studies are all brilliant. The conflicts, the fear, the confusion....Now we really feel like we're sprinting to the finish line. But no worries--Eps. 7-13 are just as great! And yup--another return of a major character. Love the "trinity" at the end.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 7:20:03 GMT
Boy, my reading of Maggie in this is different than yours I appreciate what you're giving as reasons for her attitudes and actions but for me she's become a monster to fight the monsters. From her point of view she's defending "normal" people when she's throwing her own sense of humanity away to do so. She's become hateful and in many ways much more dangerous than any of the foes she faces. I think we can all understand why she is now the vigilante but that doesn't mean we need like her for it. She's given into her bigotry and embraced a lynch-mob mentality. Maggie is now very much off the mindset that to be different is to be the enemy and that's not something I'd defend. I think part of Bloodlust is her redemption as a person as much as it is anything else. She's had a hell of a life but the so have the very people she's willing to persecute. It's a fascinating use of a long standing character. The monsters in Collinsport circa 1983 are not limited to the supernatural ones Well, yes...I see what you're saying. Do you watch The Walking Dead? There are some characters who take the stance of humanity--they won't take a life, because every life is precious. There are others who kill to survive--both walkers and humans who threaten their way of life. The only reason that I don't call this bigotry (like we have in the 'real world'). The world that the characters now face in The Walking Dead and in Dark Shadows are fighting a new kind of war. It's a matter of survival. {Spoiler for TV series} Did you think Maggie lost her humanity all those years ago when Barnabas wanted her dead--and tried very hard to make that happen?? It was actually the worst case of prolonged human torture that I had ever seen on TV. Can you blame her for going to his coffin in daytime and attempting to stake him? I cheered when she found her strength, though she was so physically weakened and dying!
I can see your point too, but Maggie here is (spoilers for what's coming folks) {Spoiler} persecuting the wrong people. She's attaching blame to the group she's convinced are guilty despite only having slight, barely circumstantial, evidence. She's using these tragic deaths to further a hate campaign against those she's taken it upo herself to decide are guilty. That's bigotry no matter how you slice it. Yes, she endured hell in the intitial Barnabas arc, and no-wonder she tried to kill him but what she's doing now is not revenge on one, it's pre-emptive violence on all who don't fit her world view.
It's what makes her, I think, the most interesting character in this series and in all of BF's DS audios.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 7:37:33 GMT
Well I like what was said in this episode things aren't black and white and that goes for the characters motivations whether solely human or supernatural. I may have to begrudgingly admit that might have been true for Andrew too. Did Andrew have any redeeming qualities? I suppose he could be charming when he wanted to be (usually when he wanted something) and he didn't have a cruel or sadistic streak. However he have a habit of wanting to use people, could be patronising, was deceptive, unable to accept his own flaws (gambling debts he intended to fix with magic) and emotionally abusing Harry (based on what little we hear of their interaction, it's not hard to see why Harry feels the way he did). He's not evil or malicious, but he's no saint either. Not hard to see why Harry's mother left him (what do we actually know about poor Mrs Cunningham?). I have a feeling she's going to turn up in Bloodline. As for Andrew, honestly, I could never see him as anything less then a bastard . He's humanised, yes, but he's an abuser and a far scarier monster then any supernatural force. He's clearly whittled away at Amy, seizing upon the damage for her to become the woman we see in Bloodlust and his treatment of Harry is horrific - and let's not forget his attack on Angelique hints at a past history of physical violence agasint women. Abusers can love their victims, abusers have their 'reasons' and think what there doing is for the best, but it doesn't detract from what they do. Amy and the kids were better off without him.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jan 20, 2016 7:58:40 GMT
Look at me defending Harry...I've really taken to this kid lol. So far he's still basically a good kid, I think. Tom too, in spite of his curses. Rhonda is the character I feel for the most at the moment. She's juggling a series of ongoing baffling investigations, an inquisitive teenage daughter and the whole town just waiting for her to slip up, particularly Ed, who seems to have been on her case a lot after what happened with Susan. She's also unaware of the supernatural characters or history that's around, which makes her efforts more commendable. She's making progress, but it feels like anything short of a culprit in custody will not please the townsfolk. Yes, and I think I recall a history lesson being put rather harshly to her already, and there's the looming possibility of Mike losing patience with Rhonda, especially with Mike and Maggie being chummy. Worse, events have already shown things as having a tendency to escalate which isn't good. I like Maggie very much and understand that like Amy, she's trying to make an overdue stand for herself, but I already don't like what Maggie is doing and it's also subject to escalation into paranoia and hysteria. It's easy to smell a whole cauldron o' trouble brewing here.
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Post by omega on Jan 20, 2016 8:08:07 GMT
Did Andrew have any redeeming qualities? I suppose he could be charming when he wanted to be (usually when he wanted something) and he didn't have a cruel or sadistic streak. However he have a habit of wanting to use people, could be patronising, was deceptive, unable to accept his own flaws (gambling debts he intended to fix with magic) and emotionally abusing Harry (based on what little we hear of their interaction, it's not hard to see why Harry feels the way he did). He's not evil or malicious, but he's no saint either. Not hard to see why Harry's mother left him (what do we actually know about poor Mrs Cunningham?). I have a feeling she's going to turn up in Bloodline. As for Andrew, honestly, I could never see him as anything less then a bastard . He's humanised, yes, but he's an abuser and a far scarier monster then any supernatural force. He's clearly whittled away at Amy, seizing upon the damage for her to become the woman we see in Bloodlust and his treatment of Harry is horrific - and let's not forget his attack on Angelique hints at a past history of physical violence agasint women. Abusers can love their victims, abusers have their 'reasons' and think what there doing is for the best, but it doesn't detract from what they do. Amy and the kids were better off without him. It'd be interesting to learn the circumstances behind how she left Andrew (the why is perfectly obvious) and why Harry wound up with him. Even though there are witches, vampires, werewolves and other murderers, the scariest things so far in Bloodlust is Maggie and her lynch mob and Andrew's abuse, precisely because they are all too human. There are people like that in real life. It's like the Doctor Who episode Midnight, the thing that scares us is what we recognise and have potential to be like the monsters we see or hear. Andrew might not even be consciously be tormenting Harry, or realise the effect he is having on him, which can be all too true when it comes to parents and their children.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 8:33:06 GMT
I have a feeling she's going to turn up in Bloodline. As for Andrew, honestly, I could never see him as anything less then a bastard . He's humanised, yes, but he's an abuser and a far scarier monster then any supernatural force. He's clearly whittled away at Amy, seizing upon the damage for her to become the woman we see in Bloodlust and his treatment of Harry is horrific - and let's not forget his attack on Angelique hints at a past history of physical violence agasint women. Abusers can love their victims, abusers have their 'reasons' and think what there doing is for the best, but it doesn't detract from what they do. Amy and the kids were better off without him. It'd be interesting to learn the circumstances behind how she left Andrew (the why is perfectly obvious) and why Harry wound up with him. Even though there are witches, vampires, werewolves and other murderers, the scariest things so far in Bloodlust is Maggie and her lynch mob and Andrew's abuse, precisely because they are all too human. There are people like that in real life. It's like the Doctor Who episode Midnight, the thing that scares us is what we recognise and have potential to be like the monsters we see or hear. Andrew might not even be consciously be tormenting Harry, or realise the effect he is having on him, which can be all too true when it comes to parents and their children.
Personally, I rate Andrew's abuse quite a bit higher then anything Maggie did in the series. Maggie's actions came from her trauma and her desire to protect the town. After everything, it was understandable. Did power corrupt Maggie slightly? Yes, but she's not on Andrew's level. Andrew's actions however come from a much darker place and I don't think the two are comparable, nor should they be and I don't think the series draws parallels between them.
As I said before, however, abusers don't always recgonise what they do as abuse. There's a fine line between making a mistake as a parent and abuse and that's what Andrew's actions were and the series recgonises his actions as such, particularly when Harry recgonises his own abuse when supporting Amy in episode four and five. ("The way he treated us") Just because Andrew felt bad about it at one point doesn't make his actions any less abusive.
As for the circumstances to how she left, while I think she'll return, for me, that's already been more or less told: Andrew was abusive and she got out. Most likely, when things escalated into violence. Sometimes, sadly, children are left behind because because of the abuse and trauma. Unlike Amy, the first Mrs Cunningham didn't have a witch's curse to open her eyes and possibily the support of people like Maggie to do it.
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Rob Morris
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Post by Rob Morris on Jan 20, 2016 9:19:03 GMT
Just to be clear, my question about Harry was more a rhetorical one But some of the character motivations here are very complex aren't they? As evidenced by the fact that we can discuss it so much here!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 9:43:44 GMT
By the way, are we going to carry this thread over to the post-Bloodlust audios?
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Jan 20, 2016 10:16:38 GMT
Edit: off to listen to Ep. 6...is this the episode with MY favorite return and line: "I know what you're all thinking: Where DID she get those SHOES?!?!?" Nope--just finished Ep. 6 and this line wasn't in it. Must be Ep. 7. Just a polite reminder then - can we try to avoid pre-empting things that you know from previous listens. For the first time listeners. This is the perfect example of how it could go wrong. That's a good moment and a funny line that first timers might actually read about before hearing now. Not telling Tracy off - just highlighting the point.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Jan 20, 2016 10:17:01 GMT
By the way, are we going to carry this thread over to the post- Bloodlust audios? YES PLEASE!
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Post by Trace on Jan 20, 2016 13:38:36 GMT
Nope--just finished Ep. 6 and this line wasn't in it. Must be Ep. 7. Just a polite reminder then - can we try to avoid pre-empting things that you know from previous listens. For the first time listeners. This is the perfect example of how it could go wrong. That's a good moment and a funny line that first timers might actually read about before hearing now. Not telling Tracy off - just highlighting the point. Um...you are telling me off. Point taken...sorry.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Jan 20, 2016 13:46:59 GMT
Just a polite reminder then - can we try to avoid pre-empting things that you know from previous listens. For the first time listeners. This is the perfect example of how it could go wrong. That's a good moment and a funny line that first timers might actually read about before hearing now. Not telling Tracy off - just highlighting the point. Um...you are telling me off. Point taken...sorry. Just a polite request. No admonishment.
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Post by kimalysong on Jan 20, 2016 14:07:46 GMT
By the way, are we going to carry this thread over to the post- Bloodlust audios? Okay I was going to mention this a bit later but I am planning a Confession of Dorian Gray Group listen after the Bloodlust one is over and I certainly hope many of you will join us for that (including people who haven't listened to Dorian yet maybe). I am also planning to jump start it with The Darkest Shadow which is way more of a Dark Shadows release than a Dorian one but I felt it was fitting a bridge from Dark Shadows to Dorian.
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