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Post by randomjc on Feb 11, 2016 17:02:07 GMT
Problem of course is if they don't have the resources to exploit those opportunities. Exactly, and as soon as they start turning out below average scripts we crucify them for going too commercial and sacrificing quality for quantity. You can see they are trying to find new writers, directors etc. But until they expand their stable of people they can't make more product, no matter how much money they throw at it. So you do end up having to make choices, say for example do we do an early adventures style novel adaptation with William Russell or a special two-disc story with Matt Smith. Well you could do the latter any time, the same might not be true for the former. But, put money the latter sells more which means you can higher more people, who can work more projects, who can make both.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,849
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Post by aztec on Feb 11, 2016 17:19:09 GMT
That McGann was available does not change the fact that Hurt was a replacement for Eccleston. Had Chris agreed to do Day of the Doctor, there would be no War Doctor. I can see why McGann wasn't chosen. He was, at that point, largely known as the Doctor from the failed Telemovie (who might have been American, and possibly noncanon, depending on whom you asked.) However much fans of the expanded universe loved him, the larger public wouldn't have had any particular reason to be excited, beyond "He's a Doctor we haven't seen much of." The Ninth Doctor has the significance of being the first New Series Doctor, whereas the Eighth Doctor is neither of the New Series nor the Classic one. It was much better, from a promotional standpoint, to create a Doctor entirely bound up in the Time War, with the allure of mystery, who acts like a Classic Series Doctor, and can be attached to a very big name. I'd genuinely never heard of John Hurt, beyond him having been in Alien decades ago. McGann has his.own serious acting credentials and I happen to think McGann would have given a much more powerful performance. My main point though is that while Eccleston's absence meant Moffat did need to do something, the creation of the War Doctor was completely unnecessary and typical Moffat, more interested in his big gimmick than in telling a good story. But hey ho, each to their own. McGann would have knocked DOTD out of the park certainly, but as I wrote elsewhere, i.m.o there were a number of reasons both commercial, and from an in universe perspective for not using the 8th Doctor in the role: {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Why McGann wouldnt have worked in the War Doctor role as Moffat envisioned it-click to see my thoughts} My first real introduction to McGann's Doctor came via NOTD, and although he has become 'my' favourite incarnation since then, I'll readily admit I have a biased point of view on the nature of the 8th Doctor's fate and character. Although McGann is clearly a great actor, was open to returning for the 50th 'properly' and would have probably pulled the role of the War Doctor off if he had got the chance, as someone who didn't really know much about the 8th Doctor beyond reputation until NOTD I had always struggled to picture him fighting in a war of this scale voluntarily (why would you cast the 'romantic' one and done guy as the centerpiece to a huge event like that? I had wondered)...yet after getting to know the 8th Doctor better in the audios/novels, it's an opinion that has only been reinforced. I'll admit there were certainly arguments for using McGann (or even Eccleston) in the part, which I'll get to below, but personally I think Moffat had very good, very clear reasons for telling the 50th Anniversary the way he did, and I think NOTD remains a perfect ending for McGann's Doctor, at least as I interpret things. As I understand it (from my limited knowledge of Mcoy's Dr) at the end of his Seventh incarnation, the Doctor grew tired of manipulation and endlessly playing 'a game of chess' with his enemies, and gradually grew into a more reserved contemplative man, sensing the oncoming darkness in his future incarnation, he spent his final years mostly alone, fixing perceived mistakes and giving his next incarnation a clean slate fearing he wouldn't be up to task (the 8th Doctor having a well know dislike of his previous incarnation), so in some ways you can argue the 7th Doctor essentially rejected becoming a warrior or manipulator and purposely regenerated into the healer and romantic explorer he always was at heart(s), the 8th Doctor being a reaction to 7's persona, and something of a new start for the Doctor, being reborn literally on the cusp of a new millenium of perceived hope. Even as far along as the 50th some Classic Who fans weren't overly enthusiastic about the barrier between the old show and the continuation being completely broken down, yet paradoxically were hoping for appearances in the anniversary, the time war as a construct of the New Series (albeit one inspired by a story arc from the wilderness years), and personally I'm not entirely sure throwing the Classic Doctors in would have suited the characters very well, McGann though from between the eras is counted as a 'classic' doctor by the BBC (at least in licensing terms), and wouldn't have necessarily fit into the Day Of The Doctor's New Who heavy script. Moreover McGann's Doctor as a more user friendly human esque romantic, was something of a prototype for Tennant and Smith's Doctors so wouldn't have necessarily provided the sort of contrast Moffat was after in the script, DOTD relies heavily on the chemistry of the three actors, but also the idea of Hurt being the odd one out passing judgement on his younger successors, McGann though middle aged at the time, as a naturally comedic charmer (even in NOTD his biting sarcasm is more hilarious than tragic) wouldn't have necessarily have sold the idea of the Doctor gone rogue (judging from the script of DOTD at least). Although having the 8th Doctor destroy Gallifrey (again), or coming to terms with his actions in the war after being prevented from doing so would have been a powerful redemptive arc for McGann (and obviously give him some much needed screen time, almost in a meta way, the half human doctor and star of a one of TV pilot be redeemed with the help of the successful Doctors of The New Series) I'm not convinced it's an arc really merited or supported by his storylines in the audios/book for several reasons. From memory in the Dark Eyes bonus features, McGann seemed excited to play a more tougher, darker Doctor pushed in a new direction, but I think that was more down to a desire to keep the character fresh and pushing/exploring the 'bit of Vampire' that lurked beneath the Doctors shell as McGann stated in interviews, (I've read McGann considered quitting during the Divergent Universe arc, becoming bored with the direction of the character and storylines) he also stated Steven Moffat captured the character of the 8th Dr perfectly, and he enjoyed playing a more rougher, battered but no less heroic evolution of the character from 1996. He has cast doubt on his doctor fighting in the time war in at least one interview: www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5LVrTqp25o''Well I think, one of the nice things about Night Of The Doctor was playing that reluctance, playing that dilemma...I mean he looked like he'd had a fight...I kinda think it was the decent compromise...I'd rather play that I think because I'm not really...I don't know...I'm not really a tough guy, I don't do tough guys so well, I do mixed morality a bit better...'' Of course you could argue that the War Doctor wasn't quite the tough guy some of were lead to believe, but my point stands, McGann seemed happy to be involved at all, and certainly seemed respectful of the way Moffat wrote his Doctor. McGann has also stated he was open to the role of the War Doctor and probably would have played the part if asked (I think any of the classic doctors would have though-you can't really turn down a paycheck that big at that age), but he has always seemed more drawn to the Doctor's inner psyche and heroism i.m.o, keen to explore as many new areas of the Doctor as possible, and as he says in the interview, he doesn't think he could pull off tough guys very well (the Eighth Doctor, though far from a pacifist isn't what I'd call a tough guy), and i.m.o these doubts are proven by the way his Doctor is usually written. From his very first moments the 8th Doctor proved himself as a very fallible doctor, a moral idealist and impulsive romantic, this is the man who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the R-101, installs a buttefly sanctuary in the tardis, tried to rescue the Master from death even after he had murdered his companions and carries around spare food in his pockets on the off chance anyone is hungry, hardly the mark of hardened warrior, nor the man you'd expect to have the detachment necessary. The 8th Doctor is hardly a coward, but even when forced to fight and hardened by age, the 8th Doctor comes across as a man who'd rather take any other option i.m.o, chastising himself and others for using violence voluntarily, he'd rather point a gun at himself than others, like all the Doctors he fights when necessary, but perhaps of all of them, he seems the hardest one to imagine at the forefront of a war i.m.o. The 8th Doctor, though a dead pan snarker with a darkside at times, has never exactly been a warrior, I could never personally buy the idea of him fighting in a war of this scale voluntarily, every time he has fought the Daleks its been on a small scale with a very good reason or involving a personal grudge, which is very different to engaging in full scale war or genocide. The 8th Doctor's frequently shown disgust of time lord bureaucracy, wandering mind and affinity for finding the joy and wonder in the worst of situations painted him as rather more suited as man on the outskirts rather than waging war at the front i.m.o, the very fact that's he's so full of passion and anger in times of hardship make him less of a candidate, I don't think he'd have the outward detachment necessary, and having such a joyous character's hope be crushed by the weight of centuries of warfare is pretty dammed depressing, i.m.o when DOTD was more about celebrating the Doctor's determination to always find a way to do the right thing. The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well. He'd rather run. Look at the fourth doctor running away from the Presidency of The Timelords, the second fleeing the timelords after the war games or the tenth running away from the Shadow Proclamation saying the Doctor will lead them to war. Even the seventh doctor, although he is manipulative, is not outright war like, and Eight for the most part certainly isn't. This exchange from one the audios sums up his attitude wonderfully: The Doctor: "This is how evil starts. With the belief that the ends justify the means. But once you start down that road, there's no turning back. What if you can save five million lives but you have to let ten people die? Or a hundred? Or a hundred thousand? Where do you stop?" Lucie Miller: "But you did. You did stop." Doctor: "I did. But by then I ended up traveling alone. Because I couldn't trust myself with anyone's life. Not after..." Lucie: "Not after? Not saying. OK. Then what made you change from being a lonely bean counter to companionable time traveler?" Doctor: "A new body. A clean slate, a fresh start. From that day I knew I never would countenance the death of a single living being. That's why I no longer travel alone. " Lucie: "Why?" Doctor: "So I could never forget how precious a single life is." As such I felt it made more sense to show McGann's Doc trying to safe innocents from the sidelines and limit the damage through peaceful means, rather than slaughtering daleks left right and center, his doctor seems unlikely to be willing to work with the timelords that closely (The End Of Time seemed to imply the timelords were just as bad as the Daleks), nor throw himself into the fire not unless there was any other option. Many point to Dark Eyes audios as evidence for a darker, more callous 8th doctor, and whilst its true the 8th Doctor comes to a point where he actually contemplates wiping out the Daleks in this series (which Doctor hasn't?) vowing vengeance on those that had wronged him, the Dark Eyes arc even from the start was more about the Doctor searching for hope and redemption i.m.o, hope that the universe didn't just create evil monsters like the Daleks or traitorous timelords like the Master, and proving to himself that he could and would save people if given the choice. Dark Eyes 1 starts with the Doctor absolutely raging with anger and grief (after the loss of several companions to the Daleks), pushing him to the very brink of his moral edge, but if even at his lowest the Eigtht Doctor still consciously rejects the path that leads to open warfare and looks for hope before death, I don't think anything would really break him into a Warrior, his rage and anger is all the more striking in these audios, because it is so opposed to his usual nature, come Doom Coalition he's written as reasonably chirpy and cheerful once more. That said, there's certainly an argument to be made that his Big Finish stories (and the books) do show a gradual journey from the scatterbrained, even childish, romantic wanderer he was in 1996 to something of a exhausted, emotionally broken old man on the brink of a very tragic fate, so you could argue Big Finish were moving McGann in a darker direction (if very slowly) anyway (his speech at the end of To The Death was obviously teasing the time war one way or another), and that destroying Gallifrey at the climax of a terrible war wouldn't be too much of a stretch as a believable way to end such an arc, but i.m.o the evidence does more to mark his Doctor as a man who would never do such a thing than it does to support it-though I understand the very notion of a 'lover' being forced to fight is a very powerful arc. The Dark Eyes boxsets i.m.o were written to prove he wasn't a man who would be able to sacrifice even a few innocents lives for the needs of the many, or willingly walk down the road to double genocide, and how given the choice, he'd always strive for peace and honor if deep down, he still had hope things could change, as he says to the Master, 'I will not join you in this insane war across the timelines!'. There's a difference between character development and outright character rewriting, McGann's Doctor was at his hearts never a true warrior and would always find his way back to the 'light' and, as such wouldn't have worked in the War Doctor role as Moffat envisioned it-the War Doctor was set up and hyped as a massive contrast to 10 and 11, and even though he ended up being a red herring of sorts, I think breaking 8 down into a warrior, only to have the climax of the storyline (Gallifrey being destroyed) being averted wouldn't have rendered much of the development pretty pointless. Although Dark Eyes does reinforce the idea of McGann becoming darker, to me the 8th Doctor's darker aspects have always been more of a reaction to the writers experimenting with and testing his impulsive nature and high moral idealism, rather than any natural inward darkness. Even in his lowest moments, his arc in the audios was more concerned with testing his Doctor, then pulling him back from his snapping point, rather than breaking him completely i.m.o. Of course there's no way of knowing how much the more recent boxsets were rewritten in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, but assuming at the time Big Finish wanted to stretch the gap between Dark Eyes and The Time War as wide as possible, they would be fighting a battle with listeners, who would naturally want to hear the time war as soon as possible, but once you break the doctor there's no going back, knowing that no matter what the 8th Doctor would end up as a burnt out but brutal warrior, would i.m.o derail his gradual character arc and limit how far Big Finish could take the character, before things became very very depressing, cyclical and repetitive, there was no guarantee their license would have been expanded to New Who, with Hurt's Doc now appearing in audios, I think the buildup to the time war won't be as rushed as it could have been, and there will be a more believable evolution/contrast of the doctors attitudes during the time war. But let's assume McGann been cast as The War Doctor, Big Finish have stated many times before they are keen to stretch the lifespan of The Eighth Doctor as much as possible, using McGann as The Doctor who fought in the war for centuries could have pigeonholed how far they could experiment with the character, at the time of the 50th Anniversary, they had no idea if their license would be renewed or extended to cover New Who properties, and there's no guarantee McGann (or listeners) would have been happy exploring such a different version of his Doctor. With the 8th Doctor in particular there's a much stronger case for following his story chronologically, and things would only get cyclical and stale if you were always fighting the temptation to show the build up to the war or show a true Doctor Gone Dark, it's hard to believe a 'time war' would have started overnight or linearly, now BF have a largely outcast 'War Doctor' to write for, they can keep some of the time war mysterious, and can still tell the 8th Doctor's involvement in great detail, 8 and War operate very differently as Doctors, so there's room for a wider variety of Time War era stories. For many I think one of the attractions of using McGann as the War Doctor was the idea of his untapped potential, and the arc of a 'lover' being forced to become a fighter, which is a fair enough point of view, and certainly a interesting arc from a dramatic angle. For a doctor that started out questioning himself 'WHO AM I!' and expressed such a clear love of the universe, having his final actions lead to genocide and the destruction of his homeworld would have a tragically ironic ending, and given McGann some amazing material to work with as his soul was crushed by the weight of an endless war. However it's clear that The War Doctor wasn't quite the boogeyman some fans were lead to believe, and one of Moffat's points with DOTD was to prove, no matter how Dark the character went, he was at heart still the Doctor, and that the character would always find a way round things. Therefore, I think Moffat (who has a clearly defined interpretation of the 8th Doctor's character) would have been even less inclined to make the 8th Doctor as dark as some fans wanted, for me it would be a little too metatextual and a bit of a slap in the face to use the 8th Doctor in the timewar, his doctor doesn't need 'redeeming' as such i.m.o, and without the destruction of Gallifrey remaining permanent there would be little meaning or finality to such an arc (whereas the War Doctor started out as warrior, so saving Gallifrey was the opposite sort of climax), having waited 17 years to see his Doctor again, I'm kinda glad NOTD showed him to be very Doctory and Heroic...not sure how much I'd have enjoyed watching 8 stand around debating whether using a big red button for forty minutes. Personally I don't think it's an arc that is really backed up with McGann's work in the audios, I'd feel very cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh, and I don't find it as fulfilling or interesting from a dramatic point of view, it just seems predictable the happy guy going dark and sad, The 8th Doctor has already been pushed to the brink with so much heartbreak, tipping him even further over the edge just seemed a bit...cynical, The very fact that it was revealed Gallifrey was never destroyed, although giving the Doctor a sense of retribution and a bittersweet ending would i.m.o render the theoretical changes to his Doctor a little pointless. And having become a fan of the BBC 8th Doctors novels (which will hopefully be adapted by Big Finish one day...) McGann being the time war Doctor sits somewhat uneasily with me...what are the chances the same Doctor who though 'pushing the button' (albeit a very spur of the moment decision) deliberately didn't destroy Gallifrey permanently, to stop a war from starting, would contemplate destroying it completely after deliberately fighting in an even bigger war voluntarily? (if anything I think this makes his stance in NOTD more believable), it would be both retreading and cancelling out old ground for the 8th Doctor, of course you could argue if he'd already done something similar before, what's to stop him doing the same again, I suppose it all depends on how you view the show's idealism of the Doctor as a hero. Having come to know the 8th Doctor I'd have found it a massive kick in the teeth if they broke down McGann's heroic wanderer into a blood soaked outcast completely devoid of hope, only to have the destruction of Gallifrey reversed anyway, it would have redeemed him at the last moment true, but it would have drastically altered his character for very little gain, at least John Hurt's Doctor fought (largely) voluntarily and with purpose from the start, and adds a very different kinda of Doctor to the roster, whilst NOTD gives him a much more tragic, final ending. I'm personally of the opinion some fans wanted McGann as the War Doctor because they didn't really know him and wanted to see more of the mystery explored, not because it was supported by the source material or his Doctors nature. Now thanks to Moffat's gamble, we have two doctors in the war-one a Doctor trying his utmost not to become a warrior, only to be pushed by circumstance into becoming one, and a warrior gradually becoming a doctor again, it's a fascinating duality with huge potential and with the forthcoming Time War Audios for each Doctor presumably running in parallel there's going to be some very interesting comparisons to explore. I may well have thought differently if DOTD had a slighty more ambitious/different script, but as it stands I'm happy the way things turned out the way they did. That said I also recognise there are strong arguments for and against the War Doctor character: {Spoiler}{The Case for and Against the War Doctor }<br>Personally I loved the idea of an outcast, self loathing 'War' Doctor, and for a variety of in universe and practical reasons. Although a piece of retroactive continuity (though since we never got confirmation whether it was 8 or 9 who fought in the time war, it dosen't necessarily change much) I think it makes more canonical sense than using McGann (or even Eccleston) in the role, and gave us a brilliant new Doctor in Hurt, though I appreciate their are issues and concerns that some had about the character, and it does detract from the Doctor's complex character in some ways.
The War Doctor raises some interesting dilemmas and parallels with real conflicts. Soldiers are genuine people too, doing a job they are trained to do (not always voluntarily), rarely genuinely violent, defending their freedom at all costs, having to make very tough decisions in the process, fighting an enemy who are genuine people with similar obligations and logic for fighting. So using that reasoning, taking the Doctor out of that dilemna by putting in a newly created 'sort-of-but-not-quite Doctor' in his place (moreover one we first see at the very end of his life when he isn't going to be the warrior of his prime ) arguably cheapens some of the drama, and allows the Doctor to excuse his actions because he temporarily went by a different name (which is either a good or bad thing depending on how you view the character as a children's hero), even if he later excepts those actions. On the other hand Doctor Who is set in a heightened sci-fi environment, the Doctor isn't a human hero, and in The Time War he wasn't fighting a human enemy, so should be held to different reasoning. Out of universe, it's primarily a family show that can't or dosen't want to explore such dark, morally grey themes to the extent they deserve, and first and foremost has to think of the casual viewer (even if this was a 50th Anniversary episode)... and I'm not completely convinced McGann would appeal to the casual viewer.
A lot of people wrote off Colin Baker's more abrasive Doctor after he strangled his companion (despite his Doctor mellowing in the audios, even in the TV series to an extent), Tom Baker's more morose fourth Doctor in his final year does seem somewhat at odds with with his earlier self, Tennant went fairly dark and arrogant in Waters of Mars (a stark contrast to his cheery eyed ladies man take on the character, though it was quickly retracted ) even Capaldi alienated a few viewers with his colder more abrasive 12th Doctor in series 8.
The difference being all these Doctors had character progression and change during their tenures on screen, but not to the extent that it was a complete surprise or distraction. McGann had never got that character progression on screen (frankly I'd feel cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh) and remains for most a largely unknown doctor, if audiences had seen his Doctor break and grow darker over a lengthy period or large number of storylines such a change would probably be easier to understand (even if it's still more of a rewrite than character progression) but to so such a sudden change of character, have his Doctor become a warrior, and handwave it away with a few lines of dialogue/references to unseen stories could be seen as lazy or confusing by casual viewers. The popular image of McGann's Doctor among those of the general public who actually remember or like the TV Movie is the easily distracted romantic charmer with with the frock coat, long hair and gothic tardis interior, (which is fair enough considering the limited availability/extra cost of the expanded universe materials for his Doctor), arguably less of a proper doctor , more a man who appeared in an episode once.
But McGann hated that wig and would probably stipulate in his contract that he didn't have to wear it if he returned, the tardis set from 1996 no longer exists and complicated rights issues would nix any major references to his companions Grace and Chang from the TV Movie. You could explain the change in character, as well explaining how his Doctor got to this point with vague references to the Big Finish continuity (or even the BBC Books/Comics, weirdly the BBC books, though out of print have a stronger case to be 'canon' as they were produced 'in house'...they themselves depict a explicitly and very different destruction of Gallifrey and a another timewar, the Big Finish audios have partially absorbed the books into continuity, so it would be very confusing figuring out what to reference). However the BBC charter rules that a programme must be able to be understood by the public using only broadcast material produced by the BBC (Night of the Doctor was released under different circumstances, first broadcast on the BBC Iplayer and Red Button, (which is probably why it got away with name dropping some of his Big Finish companions)-it's unfair on the audience to have to purchase additional material produced by another company to understand key plot points or character backgrounds.
I doubt McGann would have been happy with a storyline that either pigeonholed or largely ignored the substantial work he had put into the audios over the years, and if McGann had been the war Doctor, it would be both retreading slightly similar events and cancelling out large proportions of his backstory as established by the very same materials that are largely responsible for the fanbase his Doctor has. Such stories are generally only considered canon by hardcore fans, and often viewed as intrusive or boring to many ordinary viewers...so if you are going to be ignoring the legacy and essentially creating a brand new doctor from the ground up,...why not just go the whole hog and do it for real? The TV movie may have just been one episode, but it's well known enough not to completely ignore.
Even asuming you could persuade McGann's Doctor to once again don the wig, and bring back all the elements of his Doctor from 1996 (alot of effort for one story) this could have interfered with Big Finish continuity (having already shown a major costume change in the Dark Eyes audios) and majorly piss off the fans who had spent much money and time following the audios, it's a loose-loose situation. Even now, to be frank, I'm not completely convinced McGann's return would have created the same excitement for the general public as Hurt's casting did. McGann's Doctor only massively appealed to hardcore fans or those who like the idea of his mystery, the public memory of his Doctor isn't necessarily that of a fully fledged character, it's of him kissing Grace, a motorbike chase , 'These shoes, they fit perfectly!', Eric Robert's hammy Master and San Francisco on New Year's Eve, it's not much of a legacy, but it's enough for many people to pass judgement, and little enough for many others to be ignorant of or ignore, a brand new Doctor with a clearly defined purpose put everyone on the same page and gave Moffat greater say in how to write his character traits.
For most, McGann's Doctor is probably, and sadly more defined by his absence and the failure of the TV Movie to lead to a series than his actual performance and take on the Doctor. Putting his regeneration in a standalone internet special made alot of sense from a buisness point of view, diehard fans would happily log into YouTube to see Eight's regeneration, new viewers would be intrigued or confused, but they are sitting at a computer so could just look at the Wiki entry for him, it built hype for the actual special and kept everyone talking soley about McGann for a week afterwards.
Whilst McGann's Doctor has certainly become much more popular in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, that's still a short, niche and largely unseen internet short that builds on, and pays tribute to his character arc and persona in the audios, DOTD would have less freedom and room to do so, with the time war Doctor acting largely as a plot point there and playing second fiddle to two other, immensely popular Doctors, the excitement of McGann's return would have been muted, Hurt's Doc offered something totally new for everyone and brought the weight of a world famous movie star to proceedings. At the time of DOTD Moffat had no way of knowing if McGann's Doctor would provoke a popular reaction in the casual audiences, he may not have even been available for filming (McGann had mentioned he asked Nicholas Briggs whether he should do NOTD), and although he's a excellent Actor and very likeable Doctor, he had only played the role once before on screen, some 17 years before, as a fairly generically written youthful Doctor, often in the thralls of post regeneration amnesia, so there was precious little for Moffat to judge his Doctor on (he could hardly spare the time to used the audios as research, even if he were aloud to reference them), an internet Short which focused on McGann and gave him a simple, but tragic storyline was probably easier for both Moffat and McGann to work with.
There's a more practical reason for not using McGann. Firstly is that McGann's Doctor was, and generally is a polar opposite to Eccleston's, and in many ways remains a prototype for Tennant and Smith's more romantic, outwardly open Doctors, a naturally charming and at heart(s) youthful optimist, his Doctor wouldn't necessarily provide the contrast or gravitas Moffat was after in the script, to accommodate McGann he would have to rewrite the script even further, time which he didn't have.
Even supposing Moffat went down the route of making McGann's Doctor much wearier and darker, the character and history of the 8th Doctor is already long established in expanded media, with a small but devoted following, if he was going to go to the bother of bringing him back largely to please these fans, ignoring what's gone before and the work McGann had already put into the franchise wouldn't sit very well with the fanbase. There's nearly seventeen years worth of history to reference, summarize and provide a adequate conclusion to (with the BBC charter and copyright laws to work around), with everyones own version of McGann's ending playing in their heads already, it's a hell of alot of pressure to live up to, and there wouldn't necessarily be time to close his story in a dramatic enough way, DOTD was supposed to push the story forward, arguably McGann's Doctor isn't really known enough to merit a huge part in that i.m.o. On the other hand, although I always had my doubts Eccleston would have worked in the 50th in the role, Moffat's original idea about bringing Nine back as the War Doctor would have probably been easier to believe for alot of viewers. Eccleston's Doc was a believable tough guy, angry, haunted and snarky, it's easy to see how he would have slotted into the DOTD script, and the revelation that he had never destroyed Gallifrey would sit well with his 'coward everytime' arc in series 1. '
The Ninth Doctor returns' has a instant pull because there's a vivid recent(ish) image of Eccleston's Doctor as a character in the public memory, he continues to be a popular doctor with a whole series and character arc to work with (and huge numbers wishing for his return), RTD wrote his Doctor with the vague idea that he had ended, and possibly fought in The Time War (the 8th Doctor was at one point intended to regnerate in the Comic arc 'The Flood' prior to the time war actually starting) and recently confirmed that Rose was never intended to be his first adventure, so there was certainly room for expansion. That said, Nine had a fantastic completed arc in Series 1, seeing a story set before that (or one that potentially undermines his Doctor's trauma) wouldn't necessarily work with this arc, using The Ninth Doctor would have probably made the story feel too celebratory of New Who with only the three Nu Who Doctors being involved in major roles, and if Moffat had his doubts about Eccleston's Doctor being responsible from the beginning in some ways it's harder to say why you'd want him writing 8 in with even less to work with.
Casting Hurt as a hidden 'war' doctor though retroactive continuity, was a very useful shortcut for Moffat and adds alot to the mythos of Who i.m.o. The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well, and we've never seen him fight in a conflict of this scale before as viewers, as such an 'War Doctor' who casts away the name adds to the mystery of the conflict and allows much more scope and freedom for storylines, it also fits in rather well with the idea of the 'Day Of The Doctor' a celebration of what makes him who he is, by building it up completely with a non-doctor, rather than merely one who decided to pick up a gun. The Time War is meant to be an unimaginably huge conflict, taking place off screen between Classic and New Who, as such it feels sorta right it has its own Doctor and personally as a viewer I find it easier to sympathize with a Warrior who fights without choice, rather than a Doctor throwing away his morals and fighting voluntarily.
Using John Hurt (who is frankly, an even better actor than McGann i.m.o) as a grizzled veteran doctor creates several shortcuts, firstly-'Oh so this is the guy he fought the time war, gotcha I don't need to see anything else to know who he is and wouldn't feel confused upon finding out he has hundreds of non televised stories', casting an older actor as the third Doctor in the trio acts as something of cypher for the classic doctors who couldn't fit into the episode, with the older but younger War Doctor chastising his younger successors it's a neat callback to the Three Doctors, in Moffat's script there was precious little time and space for the Classic Doctors, but Hurt's elderly doctor acts as a cypher for them all, a metaphor for the off-screen years of the franchise and the Classic Doctors passing judgement on the New, it also shakes up the dynamic of the series for New-Who only viewers, and brings the show back to its routes with an older more reserved gentleman as the star.
Creating the War Doctor to replace Eccleston was a lesser rewrite from a character point of view than using McGann would have been, and frankly I just think it's a more interesting story. Revealing that the Doctor had a hidden incarnation that we never knew about, and one he himself had outcast, instead of simply treading the expected ground that Eight or Nine went dark and did the deed, surprised everyone and adds alot of mystery to the Doctors actions in the war, it's a much more exciting story from a marketing point of view. A secret Doctor is ripe for exploration (even if you hated the concept, a whole new doctor is alot of fun to play around with from a writers point of view), and it presented the fascinating opportunity for a rigorous study of what defines "the Doctor.", in a way no normal doctor could.
How far could he go as a 'good man'?; at what point does he stop being "the Doctor"? Do his actions rather than his name mark him as or not as the doctor? Does he deserve being outcast? And just how far was he willing to go in the time war?
And then we get the exploration on the "promise" and deeper meaning behind the Doctor's name, very interesting stuff in Hurt's hands.
The War Doctor also had the additional benefit of bumping up the regeneration limit (what better time to finally deal with the limit than in the 50th anniversary year?) helped build the hype for Smith's imminent regeneration and the war on Trenzalore (quite tragic really-he finally comes to terms with his past as the War Doctor and saves Gallifrey only to be plunged soon afterwards into another war...) which in turn started Capaldi off completely fresh - Gallifrey is saved, the silence/trenazlore arcs are complete and he has a new mission, and plenty of new lives to explore the galaxy with once more. I also like that it shifts the blame of the time war onto an outcast Doctor who has to earn the name once more (in universe I always found the idea that he kept the name doctor in the midst of a huge war a little weird) and there's more drama and subversion working following the war doctor as he starts out as more of a 'bad guy' and gradually becomes more of a doctor as time passes rather than 8 or 9 becoming dark, it's rather more interesting from a dramatic point of view, starting out with a man who isn't the Doctor, slowly becoming more of the man once more when exposed to warfare, and looking at the cliches of the war genre through the opposite perspective. This keeps the 'proper' doctors even more of a hero figure for children, and gives all new viewers one more mystery to explore and think about when they reach the 50th Anniversary episode. That said, I'll admit there is something a little odd about the idea of the Doctor outcasting one of his incarntions, he's still the same man and anyone of them would have been forced to do the same in his shoes.
Sure, you could argue that Moffat's basic reasoning for the war doctor (he couldn't imagine McGann's Doctor as grizzled enough to press the button) was flawed, as we get to know him in a story where he's shown as more of tired, regretful cuddly old man than grzzled warrior and prevented (or overwrited depending on how you interpret the episode) from having to destroy Gallifrey in the first place, rendering much of his purpose apparently pointless, however this also proves that there was an equally flawed reasonsing for using McGann in Day Of The Doctor...what would be the point in breaking the 8th Doctor into that mindset if he was prevented for destroying Gallifrey in the first place/or played a major part in its salvation? Even the War Doctor hesitates and is saved from doing so, so it's clear if Moffat didn't want to show the 'Warrior' doing the deed, he'd be even less likely to show 8's 'proper Doctor' doing so, of course this still takes away screentime and a finality from the 8th Dr's story that the rushed NOTD perhaps didn't do.
Admittedly The Doctor has never made any secret of his actions in the war, nor denied the blood on his hands as a consequence of those actions, so in the literal sense the War Doctor wasn't a hidden incarnation in a way that really mattered as such, we'd always known that A Doctor had fought in the war, and we'd known since 'Dalek' that it was him that had 'destroyed' Gallifrey, so I can understand why the revelation about The War Doctor was for some a disappointment, the hype didn't necessarily match what we saw onscreen, but there's a limit to how dark the BBC could take things.
And yes, all other reasoning aside the gravitas of having McGann, one of the least likely Doctor's 'push the button', and destroy Gallifrey would have been amazing to see, he's a strong enough actor, and such a compelling Doctor that he would have nailed the role had it been written with him in mind i.m.o. But I'd argue having the Eigtht Doctors love of the universe and ultimately futile idealism lead to his downfall, by watching his willingness to lay down his life to save a stranger backfire and force him into finally throwing away the morals of his current regeneration, was equally memorable and surprising, and more in keeping with the general tone of his Doctor. You could certainly argue turning 8 into a warrior would have been merited or possibly expected by some as a character progression, considering the deaths of five of his companions at the hands of the daleks in the audios, the 8th Doctor has more reason than most to hold a grudge, and there would be some excellent drama hearing 8 become so angry and vengeful, but 8th Doctor has never really been written like that, he lacks the detachment and would be above holding petty grudges.
This is the man who'd rather point a gun at his own head than threaten others, who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the wreck of the R101, and the Doctor who risked his life to save Davros from the jaws of the Nightmare Child . You could argue many, if not all of the Doctors would have probably done something similar, but my point stands, Eight is generally written as a moral idealist and a romantic, he'd rather negotiate or dodge than fight, certainly not short of courage but also one who offers second chances when he dosen't have to, living very much in the moment.
Other problems I had in turning McGann into the War Doctor are simply pragmatic, as we see in Day Of The Doctor its the final day of the War, all the implied rage and fire of the War Doctors early years (given that he's by engineered especially to fight by the Sisterhood, I'm guessing he'd have more fire and rage than an already rather old and worn down 8th doctor could ever have when the time war breaks out) was long gone in Moffat's script, casual audiences wouldn't have any idea as to how McGann's romantic scatterbrained adventurer had become this broken and battle hardened, its hardly fair to go and say to them 'Go and listen to several decades of audios, which are years away from catching up to this point anyway to get the implied context, by the way due to the BBC charter we can't really refer to the audios directly in the show anyway' to get them caught up with the Doctor's change in temperament. McGann's Doctor was so full of life and energy, it's very hard for me personally to picture him so cold and broken, but maybe I'm simply reading to much into things and people would have accepted it any way.
We saw the Doctors soul being saved by the moment, just a different Doctor, one perhaps even more tragically deserving of it, The War Doctor had spent his entire lifespan fighting an endless war, knowing on this final day as he chooses to detonate the moment it was all utterly pointless, only to be saved the actions of his successors, from a personal point of view I find it easier to 'get with' the redemption of a Warrior who in his words 'did it without choice' yet gradually walks back along the path to being the Doctor (I know some complained that in DOTD The War Doctor wasn't too bloodthirsty, merely exhausted, that was the point I think, John Hurt in DOTD wasn't the boogeyman 10 and 11's memories had made him out to be) rather than the actions of a the 8th Doctor who did it willingly.
Although I'm generally of the opinion the Time War should remain largely untold, the War Doctor certainly adds to the mystery, interest and tragedy of the conflict for me, and I find the idea of a warrior walking along a path back to being the Doctor, rather than a Doctor being broken into a warrior more true to the character and series tone and rather more interesting from a character stand point. The War Doctor acts as an interesting parallel to many of 8s key character traits, and now gives us two time war Doctor with very different goals and viewpoints of the conflict.
Personally I thought John Hurt gave a magnificent performance as the War Doctor, making the most of his limited screentime, I enjoyed his/Moffat's interpretation of the character very much, I'm hopeful we'll see more and more of his doctor in the audios/books etc as the years pass, McGann would have undoubtedly done great things in the part, but honestly I think things worked out for the best.
But that's just my opinion. Somewhat ironically The War Doctor seems to have become one of Hurt's most famous/popular roles with the public (if his official facebook page is anything to go by) his casting certainly got me interested in the show again in a way I had't felt for several years. But each to their own.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Feb 11, 2016 17:25:40 GMT
Yeah, I'm a big McGann fan. I've seen loads of things he's done that have never even seen broadcast in the UK like Fables of Forgotten Things and SOS: The Titanic Enquiry - he's one of my own favourite actors but he's not in the same league as John Hurt. Not a single classic series Doctor is, based purely on the success of Hurt's career. Just off the top of my head - big projects either critically or commercially he's been a key player in: Naked Civil Servant (and the sadly more obcscure sequel Englishman In New York), A Man For All Seasons, 10 Rillington Place, Midnight Express, Watership Down, The Elephant Man, Heaven's Gate, I Claudius, Crime And Punishment, The Alan Clarke Diaries, Nineteen Eighty-Four, Rob Roy, Harry Potter, V For Vendetta, Hellboy, The Proposition, Indiana Jones, the Harry Potter films, Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy....there's a reason he got that knighthood for services to acting! Like I say, I adore McGann deeply, I'd put the degree at which I've followed his career against anyone else's on the forum, but even I wouldn't think of him as being "event" enough for the 50th. For me? 100%. For fandom? Yeah, sure, mostly. For the public? He's one of the Doctors people don't remember in pub quizzes I'm afraid. Not his fault, at all, but if Eccleston said no - then just using McGann wasn't a suitable substitute. We're insanely lucky to have Hurt as part of the show having had thing turn out the way they did. I think Moffat's genius was knowing that if he was casting a "Mayflower" Doctor, hidden from the past, then he had to get an icon who everyone would buy as being a Doctor, who would be famous enough to sell this "movie" on and who would be a contrast to the young, eager Tennant and Smith Doctors. It couldn't have worked getting, say, James Nesbitt, an often-talked about Doctor who is certainly a star but not (yet) a legend. When Hurt was cast it lent the whole concept an air of legitimacy that casting others wouldn't. Seeing this shot was one of the most astonishing moments in the 53 years of the show, for me. Completely agree with this, Sir Hurt's wife also deserves some thanks, apparently when he first got the script he wasn't too sure, but his wife persuaded him: www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/dwm-496-the-war-doctor-79676.htmIf I'm totally honest I actually took to Hurt's Doctor quicker than some of the 'proper' incarantions. James Nesbitt has long been on my list of actors I'd love to see as the Doctor (or Master)...
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Feb 11, 2016 17:38:43 GMT
It is something I've been thinking about. If you look at BF in the past year, and look at what is coming out they have very quietly been increasing the number of writers working for them across the various lines & ranges. Guy Adams, AK Benedict, Simon Bernard & Paul Morris, Phil Mulryne, Ken Bentley, Jenny T. Colgan and Louise Jameson. Also we are seeing Paul Magrs writing again for BF and Eddie Robson showing his word processor again. None of that even includes the writers we see so often. Fitton, Dorney, Briggs, Barnes, Richards, Morris, Smith, Potter, Guerrier and the like. That list doesn't even take into account all the writers the Dark Shadows range employs. On the director end we see Scott Handcock doing more stuff, Jamie Anderson working with the Monthly Range and Lou pulling triple duty. Anyway, it just seems to me that Big Finish has been expanding on the creative end.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Feb 11, 2016 17:46:42 GMT
It is something I've been thinking about. If you look at BF in the past year, and look at what is coming out they have very quietly been increasing the number of writers working for them across the various lines & ranges. Guy Adams, AK Benedict, Simon Bernard & Paul Morris, Phil Mulryne, Ken Bentley, Jenny T. Colgan and Louise Jameson. Also we are seeing Paul Magrs writing again for BF and Eddie Robson showing his word processor again. None of that even includes the writers we see so often. Fitton, Dorney, Briggs, Barnes, Richards, Morris, Smith, Potter, Guerrier and the like. That list doesn't even take into account all the writers the Dark Shadows range employs. On the director end we see Scott Handcock doing more stuff, Jamie Anderson working with the Monthly Range and Lou pulling triple duty. Anyway, it just seems to me that Big Finish has been expanding on the creative end. I've only been listening to B.F for about a year and a half, but I've noticed that as well, always good to give fresh, promising writers a chance, with the number and scope of releases widening each year it only makes sense to increases the pool of writing talent and share the load a bit more, with the New Who releases set to become more and more common, I think B.F is going to be under more pressure/scrutiny and exposure that it had before, so using more writers could maybe also help make things feel more fresh/exciting for new listeners.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 18:16:10 GMT
I'd genuinely never heard of John Hurt, beyond him having been in Alien decades ago. McGann has his.own serious acting credentials and I happen to think McGann would have given a much more powerful performance. My main point though is that while Eccleston's absence meant Moffat did need to do something, the creation of the War Doctor was completely unnecessary and typical Moffat, more interested in his big gimmick than in telling a good story. But hey ho, each to their own. McGann would have knocked DOTD out of the park certainly, but as I wrote elsewhere, i.m.o there were a number of reasons both commercial, and from an in universe perspective for not using the 8th Doctor in the role: {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Why McGann wouldnt have worked in the War Doctor role as Moffat envisioned it-click to see my thoughts} My first real introduction to McGann's Doctor came via NOTD, and although he has become 'my' favourite incarnation since then, I'll readily admit I have a biased point of view on the nature of the 8th Doctor's fate and character. Although McGann is clearly a great actor, was open to returning for the 50th 'properly' and would have probably pulled the role of the War Doctor off if he had got the chance, as someone who didn't really know much about the 8th Doctor beyond reputation until NOTD I had always struggled to picture him fighting in a war of this scale voluntarily (why would you cast the 'romantic' one and done guy as the centerpiece to a huge event like that? I had wondered)...yet after getting to know the 8th Doctor better in the audios/novels, it's an opinion that has only been reinforced. I'll admit there were certainly arguments for using McGann (or even Eccleston) in the part, which I'll get to below, but personally I think Moffat had very good, very clear reasons for telling the 50th Anniversary the way he did, and I think NOTD remains a perfect ending for McGann's Doctor, at least as I interpret things. As I understand it (from my limited knowledge of Mcoy's Dr) at the end of his Seventh incarnation, the Doctor grew tired of manipulation and endlessly playing 'a game of chess' with his enemies, and gradually grew into a more reserved contemplative man, sensing the oncoming darkness in his future incarnation, he spent his final years mostly alone, fixing perceived mistakes and giving his next incarnation a clean slate fearing he wouldn't be up to task (the 8th Doctor having a well know dislike of his previous incarnation), so in some ways you can argue the 7th Doctor essentially rejected becoming a warrior or manipulator and purposely regenerated into the healer and romantic explorer he always was at heart(s), the 8th Doctor being a reaction to 7's persona, and something of a new start for the Doctor, being reborn literally on the cusp of a new millenium of perceived hope. Even as far along as the 50th some Classic Who fans weren't overly enthusiastic about the barrier between the old show and the continuation being completely broken down, yet paradoxically were hoping for appearances in the anniversary, the time war as a construct of the New Series (albeit one inspired by a story arc from the wilderness years), and personally I'm not entirely sure throwing the Classic Doctors in would have suited the characters very well, McGann though from between the eras is counted as a 'classic' doctor by the BBC (at least in licensing terms), and wouldn't have necessarily fit into the Day Of The Doctor's New Who heavy script. Moreover McGann's Doctor as a more user friendly human esque romantic, was something of a prototype for Tennant and Smith's Doctors so wouldn't have necessarily provided the sort of contrast Moffat was after in the script, DOTD relies heavily on the chemistry of the three actors, but also the idea of Hurt being the odd one out passing judgement on his younger successors, McGann though middle aged at the time, as a naturally comedic charmer (even in NOTD his biting sarcasm is more hilarious than tragic) wouldn't have necessarily have sold the idea of the Doctor gone rogue (judging from the script of DOTD at least). Although having the 8th Doctor destroy Gallifrey (again), or coming to terms with his actions in the war after being prevented from doing so would have been a powerful redemptive arc for McGann (and obviously give him some much needed screen time, almost in a meta way, the half human doctor and star of a one of TV pilot be redeemed with the help of the successful Doctors of The New Series) I'm not convinced it's an arc really merited or supported by his storylines in the audios/book for several reasons. From memory in the Dark Eyes bonus features, McGann seemed excited to play a more tougher, darker Doctor pushed in a new direction, but I think that was more down to a desire to keep the character fresh and pushing/exploring the 'bit of Vampire' that lurked beneath the Doctors shell as McGann stated in interviews, (I've read McGann considered quitting during the Divergent Universe arc, becoming bored with the direction of the character and storylines) he also stated Steven Moffat captured the character of the 8th Dr perfectly, and he enjoyed playing a more rougher, battered but no less heroic evolution of the character from 1996. He has cast doubt on his doctor fighting in the time war in at least one interview: www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5LVrTqp25o''Well I think, one of the nice things about Night Of The Doctor was playing that reluctance, playing that dilemma...I mean he looked like he'd had a fight...I kinda think it was the decent compromise...I'd rather play that I think because I'm not really...I don't know...I'm not really a tough guy, I don't do tough guys so well, I do mixed morality a bit better...'' Of course you could argue that the War Doctor wasn't quite the tough guy some of were lead to believe, but my point stands, McGann seemed happy to be involved at all, and certainly seemed respectful of the way Moffat wrote his Doctor. McGann has also stated he was open to the role of the War Doctor and probably would have played the part if asked (I think any of the classic doctors would have though-you can't really turn down a paycheck that big at that age), but he has always seemed more drawn to the Doctor's inner psyche and heroism i.m.o, keen to explore as many new areas of the Doctor as possible, and as he says in the interview, he doesn't think he could pull off tough guys very well (the Eighth Doctor, though far from a pacifist isn't what I'd call a tough guy), and i.m.o these doubts are proven by the way his Doctor is usually written. From his very first moments the 8th Doctor proved himself as a very fallible doctor, a moral idealist and impulsive romantic, this is the man who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the R-101, installs a buttefly sanctuary in the tardis, tried to rescue the Master from death even after he had murdered his companions and carries around spare food in his pockets on the off chance anyone is hungry, hardly the mark of hardened warrior, nor the man you'd expect to have the detachment necessary. The 8th Doctor is hardly a coward, but even when forced to fight and hardened by age, the 8th Doctor comes across as a man who'd rather take any other option i.m.o, chastising himself and others for using violence voluntarily, he'd rather point a gun at himself than others, like all the Doctors he fights when necessary, but perhaps of all of them, he seems the hardest one to imagine at the forefront of a war i.m.o. The 8th Doctor, though a dead pan snarker with a darkside at times, has never exactly been a warrior, I could never personally buy the idea of him fighting in a war of this scale voluntarily, every time he has fought the Daleks its been on a small scale with a very good reason or involving a personal grudge, which is very different to engaging in full scale war or genocide. The 8th Doctor's frequently shown disgust of time lord bureaucracy, wandering mind and affinity for finding the joy and wonder in the worst of situations painted him as rather more suited as man on the outskirts rather than waging war at the front i.m.o, the very fact that's he's so full of passion and anger in times of hardship make him less of a candidate, I don't think he'd have the outward detachment necessary, and having such a joyous character's hope be crushed by the weight of centuries of warfare is pretty dammed depressing, i.m.o when DOTD was more about celebrating the Doctor's determination to always find a way to do the right thing. The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well. He'd rather run. Look at the fourth doctor running away from the Presidency of The Timelords, the second fleeing the timelords after the war games or the tenth running away from the Shadow Proclamation saying the Doctor will lead them to war. Even the seventh doctor, although he is manipulative, is not outright war like, and Eight for the most part certainly isn't. This exchange from one the audios sums up his attitude wonderfully: The Doctor: "This is how evil starts. With the belief that the ends justify the means. But once you start down that road, there's no turning back. What if you can save five million lives but you have to let ten people die? Or a hundred? Or a hundred thousand? Where do you stop?" Lucie Miller: "But you did. You did stop." Doctor: "I did. But by then I ended up traveling alone. Because I couldn't trust myself with anyone's life. Not after..." Lucie: "Not after? Not saying. OK. Then what made you change from being a lonely bean counter to companionable time traveler?" Doctor: "A new body. A clean slate, a fresh start. From that day I knew I never would countenance the death of a single living being. That's why I no longer travel alone. " Lucie: "Why?" Doctor: "So I could never forget how precious a single life is." As such I felt it made more sense to show McGann's Doc trying to safe innocents from the sidelines and limit the damage through peaceful means, rather than slaughtering daleks left right and center, his doctor seems unlikely to be willing to work with the timelords that closely (The End Of Time seemed to imply the timelords were just as bad as the Daleks), nor throw himself into the fire not unless there was any other option. Many point to Dark Eyes audios as evidence for a darker, more callous 8th doctor, and whilst its true the 8th Doctor comes to a point where he actually contemplates wiping out the Daleks in this series (which Doctor hasn't?) vowing vengeance on those that had wronged him, the Dark Eyes arc even from the start was more about the Doctor searching for hope and redemption i.m.o, hope that the universe didn't just create evil monsters like the Daleks or traitorous timelords like the Master, and proving to himself that he could and would save people if given the choice. Dark Eyes 1 starts with the Doctor absolutely raging with anger and grief (after the loss of several companions to the Daleks), pushing him to the very brink of his moral edge, but if even at his lowest the Eigtht Doctor still consciously rejects the path that leads to open warfare and looks for hope before death, I don't think anything would really break him into a Warrior, his rage and anger is all the more striking in these audios, because it is so opposed to his usual nature, come Doom Coalition he's written as reasonably chirpy and cheerful once more. That said, there's certainly an argument to be made that his Big Finish stories (and the books) do show a gradual journey from the scatterbrained, even childish, romantic wanderer he was in 1996 to something of a exhausted, emotionally broken old man on the brink of a very tragic fate, so you could argue Big Finish were moving McGann in a darker direction (if very slowly) anyway (his speech at the end of To The Death was obviously teasing the time war one way or another), and that destroying Gallifrey at the climax of a terrible war wouldn't be too much of a stretch as a believable way to end such an arc, but i.m.o the evidence does more to mark his Doctor as a man who would never do such a thing than it does to support it-though I understand the very notion of a 'lover' being forced to fight is a very powerful arc. The Dark Eyes boxsets i.m.o were written to prove he wasn't a man who would be able to sacrifice even a few innocents lives for the needs of the many, or willingly walk down the road to double genocide, and how given the choice, he'd always strive for peace and honor if deep down, he still had hope things could change, as he says to the Master, 'I will not join you in this insane war across the timelines!'. There's a difference between character development and outright character rewriting, McGann's Doctor was at his hearts never a true warrior and would always find his way back to the 'light' and, as such wouldn't have worked in the War Doctor role as Moffat envisioned it-the War Doctor was set up and hyped as a massive contrast to 10 and 11, and even though he ended up being a red herring of sorts, I think breaking 8 down into a warrior, only to have the climax of the storyline (Gallifrey being destroyed) being averted wouldn't have rendered much of the development pretty pointless. Although Dark Eyes does reinforce the idea of McGann becoming darker, to me the 8th Doctor's darker aspects have always been more of a reaction to the writers experimenting with and testing his impulsive nature and high moral idealism, rather than any natural inward darkness. Even in his lowest moments, his arc in the audios was more concerned with testing his Doctor, then pulling him back from his snapping point, rather than breaking him completely i.m.o. Of course there's no way of knowing how much the more recent boxsets were rewritten in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, but assuming at the time Big Finish wanted to stretch the gap between Dark Eyes and The Time War as wide as possible, they would be fighting a battle with listeners, who would naturally want to hear the time war as soon as possible, but once you break the doctor there's no going back, knowing that no matter what the 8th Doctor would end up as a burnt out but brutal warrior, would i.m.o derail his gradual character arc and limit how far Big Finish could take the character, before things became very very depressing, cyclical and repetitive, there was no guarantee their license would have been expanded to New Who, with Hurt's Doc now appearing in audios, I think the buildup to the time war won't be as rushed as it could have been, and there will be a more believable evolution/contrast of the doctors attitudes during the time war. But let's assume McGann been cast as The War Doctor, Big Finish have stated many times before they are keen to stretch the lifespan of The Eighth Doctor as much as possible, using McGann as The Doctor who fought in the war for centuries could have pigeonholed how far they could experiment with the character, at the time of the 50th Anniversary, they had no idea if their license would be renewed or extended to cover New Who properties, and there's no guarantee McGann (or listeners) would have been happy exploring such a different version of his Doctor. With the 8th Doctor in particular there's a much stronger case for following his story chronologically, and things would only get cyclical and stale if you were always fighting the temptation to show the build up to the war or show a true Doctor Gone Dark, it's hard to believe a 'time war' would have started overnight or linearly, now BF have a largely outcast 'War Doctor' to write for, they can keep some of the time war mysterious, and can still tell the 8th Doctor's involvement in great detail, 8 and War operate very differently as Doctors, so there's room for a wider variety of Time War era stories. For many I think one of the attractions of using McGann as the War Doctor was the idea of his untapped potential, and the arc of a 'lover' being forced to become a fighter, which is a fair enough point of view, and certainly a interesting arc from a dramatic angle. For a doctor that started out questioning himself 'WHO AM I!' and expressed such a clear love of the universe, having his final actions lead to genocide and the destruction of his homeworld would have a tragically ironic ending, and given McGann some amazing material to work with as his soul was crushed by the weight of an endless war. However it's clear that The War Doctor wasn't quite the boogeyman some fans were lead to believe, and one of Moffat's points with DOTD was to prove, no matter how Dark the character went, he was at heart still the Doctor, and that the character would always find a way round things. Therefore, I think Moffat (who has a clearly defined interpretation of the 8th Doctor's character) would have been even less inclined to make the 8th Doctor as dark as some fans wanted, for me it would be a little too metatextual and a bit of a slap in the face to use the 8th Doctor in the timewar, his doctor doesn't need 'redeeming' as such i.m.o, and without the destruction of Gallifrey remaining permanent there would be little meaning or finality to such an arc (whereas the War Doctor started out as warrior, so saving Gallifrey was the opposite sort of climax), having waited 17 years to see his Doctor again, I'm kinda glad NOTD showed him to be very Doctory and Heroic...not sure how much I'd have enjoyed watching 8 stand around debating whether using a big red button for forty minutes. Personally I don't think it's an arc that is really backed up with McGann's work in the audios, I'd feel very cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh, and I don't find it as fulfilling or interesting from a dramatic point of view, it just seems predictable the happy guy going dark and sad, The 8th Doctor has already been pushed to the brink with so much heartbreak, tipping him even further over the edge just seemed a bit...cynical, The very fact that it was revealed Gallifrey was never destroyed, although giving the Doctor a sense of retribution and a bittersweet ending would i.m.o render the theoretical changes to his Doctor a little pointless. And having become a fan of the BBC 8th Doctors novels (which will hopefully be adapted by Big Finish one day...) McGann being the time war Doctor sits somewhat uneasily with me...what are the chances the same Doctor who though 'pushing the button' (albeit a very spur of the moment decision) deliberately didn't destroy Gallifrey permanently, to stop a war from starting, would contemplate destroying it completely after deliberately fighting in an even bigger war voluntarily? (if anything I think this makes his stance in NOTD more believable), it would be both retreading and cancelling out old ground for the 8th Doctor, of course you could argue if he'd already done something similar before, what's to stop him doing the same again, I suppose it all depends on how you view the show's idealism of the Doctor as a hero. Having come to know the 8th Doctor I'd have found it a massive kick in the teeth if they broke down McGann's heroic wanderer into a blood soaked outcast completely devoid of hope, only to have the destruction of Gallifrey reversed anyway, it would have redeemed him at the last moment true, but it would have drastically altered his character for very little gain, at least John Hurt's Doctor fought (largely) voluntarily and with purpose from the start, and adds a very different kinda of Doctor to the roster, whilst NOTD gives him a much more tragic, final ending. I'm personally of the opinion some fans wanted McGann as the War Doctor because they didn't really know him and wanted to see more of the mystery explored, not because it was supported by the source material or his Doctors nature. Now thanks to Moffat's gamble, we have two doctors in the war-one a Doctor trying his utmost not to become a warrior, only to be pushed by circumstance into becoming one, and a warrior gradually becoming a doctor again, it's a fascinating duality with huge potential and with the forthcoming Time War Audios for each Doctor presumably running in parallel there's going to be some very interesting comparisons to explore. I may well have thought differently if DOTD had a slighty more ambitious/different script, but as it stands I'm happy the way things turned out the way they did. That said I also recognise there are strong arguments for and against the War Doctor character: {Spoiler}{The Case for and Against the War Doctor }<br>Personally I loved the idea of an outcast, self loathing 'War' Doctor, and for a variety of in universe and practical reasons. Although a piece of retroactive continuity (though since we never got confirmation whether it was 8 or 9 who fought in the time war, it dosen't necessarily change much) I think it makes more canonical sense than using McGann (or even Eccleston) in the role, and gave us a brilliant new Doctor in Hurt, though I appreciate their are issues and concerns that some had about the character, and it does detract from the Doctor's complex character in some ways.
The War Doctor raises some interesting dilemmas and parallels with real conflicts. Soldiers are genuine people too, doing a job they are trained to do (not always voluntarily), rarely genuinely violent, defending their freedom at all costs, having to make very tough decisions in the process, fighting an enemy who are genuine people with similar obligations and logic for fighting. So using that reasoning, taking the Doctor out of that dilemna by putting in a newly created 'sort-of-but-not-quite Doctor' in his place (moreover one we first see at the very end of his life when he isn't going to be the warrior of his prime ) arguably cheapens some of the drama, and allows the Doctor to excuse his actions because he temporarily went by a different name (which is either a good or bad thing depending on how you view the character as a children's hero), even if he later excepts those actions. On the other hand Doctor Who is set in a heightened sci-fi environment, the Doctor isn't a human hero, and in The Time War he wasn't fighting a human enemy, so should be held to different reasoning. Out of universe, it's primarily a family show that can't or dosen't want to explore such dark, morally grey themes to the extent they deserve, and first and foremost has to think of the casual viewer (even if this was a 50th Anniversary episode)... and I'm not completely convinced McGann would appeal to the casual viewer.
A lot of people wrote off Colin Baker's more abrasive Doctor after he strangled his companion (despite his Doctor mellowing in the audios, even in the TV series to an extent), Tom Baker's more morose fourth Doctor in his final year does seem somewhat at odds with with his earlier self, Tennant went fairly dark and arrogant in Waters of Mars (a stark contrast to his cheery eyed ladies man take on the character, though it was quickly retracted ) even Capaldi alienated a few viewers with his colder more abrasive 12th Doctor in series 8.
The difference being all these Doctors had character progression and change during their tenures on screen, but not to the extent that it was a complete surprise or distraction. McGann had never got that character progression on screen (frankly I'd feel cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh) and remains for most a largely unknown doctor, if audiences had seen his Doctor break and grow darker over a lengthy period or large number of storylines such a change would probably be easier to understand (even if it's still more of a rewrite than character progression) but to so such a sudden change of character, have his Doctor become a warrior, and handwave it away with a few lines of dialogue/references to unseen stories could be seen as lazy or confusing by casual viewers. The popular image of McGann's Doctor among those of the general public who actually remember or like the TV Movie is the easily distracted romantic charmer with with the frock coat, long hair and gothic tardis interior, (which is fair enough considering the limited availability/extra cost of the expanded universe materials for his Doctor), arguably less of a proper doctor , more a man who appeared in an episode once.
But McGann hated that wig and would probably stipulate in his contract that he didn't have to wear it if he returned, the tardis set from 1996 no longer exists and complicated rights issues would nix any major references to his companions Grace and Chang from the TV Movie. You could explain the change in character, as well explaining how his Doctor got to this point with vague references to the Big Finish continuity (or even the BBC Books/Comics, weirdly the BBC books, though out of print have a stronger case to be 'canon' as they were produced 'in house'...they themselves depict a explicitly and very different destruction of Gallifrey and a another timewar, the Big Finish audios have partially absorbed the books into continuity, so it would be very confusing figuring out what to reference). However the BBC charter rules that a programme must be able to be understood by the public using only broadcast material produced by the BBC (Night of the Doctor was released under different circumstances, first broadcast on the BBC Iplayer and Red Button, (which is probably why it got away with name dropping some of his Big Finish companions)-it's unfair on the audience to have to purchase additional material produced by another company to understand key plot points or character backgrounds.
I doubt McGann would have been happy with a storyline that either pigeonholed or largely ignored the substantial work he had put into the audios over the years, and if McGann had been the war Doctor, it would be both retreading slightly similar events and cancelling out large proportions of his backstory as established by the very same materials that are largely responsible for the fanbase his Doctor has. Such stories are generally only considered canon by hardcore fans, and often viewed as intrusive or boring to many ordinary viewers...so if you are going to be ignoring the legacy and essentially creating a brand new doctor from the ground up,...why not just go the whole hog and do it for real? The TV movie may have just been one episode, but it's well known enough not to completely ignore.
Even asuming you could persuade McGann's Doctor to once again don the wig, and bring back all the elements of his Doctor from 1996 (alot of effort for one story) this could have interfered with Big Finish continuity (having already shown a major costume change in the Dark Eyes audios) and majorly piss off the fans who had spent much money and time following the audios, it's a loose-loose situation. Even now, to be frank, I'm not completely convinced McGann's return would have created the same excitement for the general public as Hurt's casting did. McGann's Doctor only massively appealed to hardcore fans or those who like the idea of his mystery, the public memory of his Doctor isn't necessarily that of a fully fledged character, it's of him kissing Grace, a motorbike chase , 'These shoes, they fit perfectly!', Eric Robert's hammy Master and San Francisco on New Year's Eve, it's not much of a legacy, but it's enough for many people to pass judgement, and little enough for many others to be ignorant of or ignore, a brand new Doctor with a clearly defined purpose put everyone on the same page and gave Moffat greater say in how to write his character traits.
For most, McGann's Doctor is probably, and sadly more defined by his absence and the failure of the TV Movie to lead to a series than his actual performance and take on the Doctor. Putting his regeneration in a standalone internet special made alot of sense from a buisness point of view, diehard fans would happily log into YouTube to see Eight's regeneration, new viewers would be intrigued or confused, but they are sitting at a computer so could just look at the Wiki entry for him, it built hype for the actual special and kept everyone talking soley about McGann for a week afterwards.
Whilst McGann's Doctor has certainly become much more popular in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, that's still a short, niche and largely unseen internet short that builds on, and pays tribute to his character arc and persona in the audios, DOTD would have less freedom and room to do so, with the time war Doctor acting largely as a plot point there and playing second fiddle to two other, immensely popular Doctors, the excitement of McGann's return would have been muted, Hurt's Doc offered something totally new for everyone and brought the weight of a world famous movie star to proceedings. At the time of DOTD Moffat had no way of knowing if McGann's Doctor would provoke a popular reaction in the casual audiences, he may not have even been available for filming (McGann had mentioned he asked Nicholas Briggs whether he should do NOTD), and although he's a excellent Actor and very likeable Doctor, he had only played the role once before on screen, some 17 years before, as a fairly generically written youthful Doctor, often in the thralls of post regeneration amnesia, so there was precious little for Moffat to judge his Doctor on (he could hardly spare the time to used the audios as research, even if he were aloud to reference them), an internet Short which focused on McGann and gave him a simple, but tragic storyline was probably easier for both Moffat and McGann to work with.
There's a more practical reason for not using McGann. Firstly is that McGann's Doctor was, and generally is a polar opposite to Eccleston's, and in many ways remains a prototype for Tennant and Smith's more romantic, outwardly open Doctors, a naturally charming and at heart(s) youthful optimist, his Doctor wouldn't necessarily provide the contrast or gravitas Moffat was after in the script, to accommodate McGann he would have to rewrite the script even further, time which he didn't have.
Even supposing Moffat went down the route of making McGann's Doctor much wearier and darker, the character and history of the 8th Doctor is already long established in expanded media, with a small but devoted following, if he was going to go to the bother of bringing him back largely to please these fans, ignoring what's gone before and the work McGann had already put into the franchise wouldn't sit very well with the fanbase. There's nearly seventeen years worth of history to reference, summarize and provide a adequate conclusion to (with the BBC charter and copyright laws to work around), with everyones own version of McGann's ending playing in their heads already, it's a hell of alot of pressure to live up to, and there wouldn't necessarily be time to close his story in a dramatic enough way, DOTD was supposed to push the story forward, arguably McGann's Doctor isn't really known enough to merit a huge part in that i.m.o. On the other hand, although I always had my doubts Eccleston would have worked in the 50th in the role, Moffat's original idea about bringing Nine back as the War Doctor would have probably been easier to believe for alot of viewers. Eccleston's Doc was a believable tough guy, angry, haunted and snarky, it's easy to see how he would have slotted into the DOTD script, and the revelation that he had never destroyed Gallifrey would sit well with his 'coward everytime' arc in series 1. '
The Ninth Doctor returns' has a instant pull because there's a vivid recent(ish) image of Eccleston's Doctor as a character in the public memory, he continues to be a popular doctor with a whole series and character arc to work with (and huge numbers wishing for his return), RTD wrote his Doctor with the vague idea that he had ended, and possibly fought in The Time War (the 8th Doctor was at one point intended to regnerate in the Comic arc 'The Flood' prior to the time war actually starting) and recently confirmed that Rose was never intended to be his first adventure, so there was certainly room for expansion. That said, Nine had a fantastic completed arc in Series 1, seeing a story set before that (or one that potentially undermines his Doctor's trauma) wouldn't necessarily work with this arc, using The Ninth Doctor would have probably made the story feel too celebratory of New Who with only the three Nu Who Doctors being involved in major roles, and if Moffat had his doubts about Eccleston's Doctor being responsible from the beginning in some ways it's harder to say why you'd want him writing 8 in with even less to work with.
Casting Hurt as a hidden 'war' doctor though retroactive continuity, was a very useful shortcut for Moffat and adds alot to the mythos of Who i.m.o. The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well, and we've never seen him fight in a conflict of this scale before as viewers, as such an 'War Doctor' who casts away the name adds to the mystery of the conflict and allows much more scope and freedom for storylines, it also fits in rather well with the idea of the 'Day Of The Doctor' a celebration of what makes him who he is, by building it up completely with a non-doctor, rather than merely one who decided to pick up a gun. The Time War is meant to be an unimaginably huge conflict, taking place off screen between Classic and New Who, as such it feels sorta right it has its own Doctor and personally as a viewer I find it easier to sympathize with a Warrior who fights without choice, rather than a Doctor throwing away his morals and fighting voluntarily.
Using John Hurt (who is frankly, an even better actor than McGann i.m.o) as a grizzled veteran doctor creates several shortcuts, firstly-'Oh so this is the guy he fought the time war, gotcha I don't need to see anything else to know who he is and wouldn't feel confused upon finding out he has hundreds of non televised stories', casting an older actor as the third Doctor in the trio acts as something of cypher for the classic doctors who couldn't fit into the episode, with the older but younger War Doctor chastising his younger successors it's a neat callback to the Three Doctors, in Moffat's script there was precious little time and space for the Classic Doctors, but Hurt's elderly doctor acts as a cypher for them all, a metaphor for the off-screen years of the franchise and the Classic Doctors passing judgement on the New, it also shakes up the dynamic of the series for New-Who only viewers, and brings the show back to its routes with an older more reserved gentleman as the star.
Creating the War Doctor to replace Eccleston was a lesser rewrite from a character point of view than using McGann would have been, and frankly I just think it's a more interesting story. Revealing that the Doctor had a hidden incarnation that we never knew about, and one he himself had outcast, instead of simply treading the expected ground that Eight or Nine went dark and did the deed, surprised everyone and adds alot of mystery to the Doctors actions in the war, it's a much more exciting story from a marketing point of view. A secret Doctor is ripe for exploration (even if you hated the concept, a whole new doctor is alot of fun to play around with from a writers point of view), and it presented the fascinating opportunity for a rigorous study of what defines "the Doctor.", in a way no normal doctor could.
How far could he go as a 'good man'?; at what point does he stop being "the Doctor"? Do his actions rather than his name mark him as or not as the doctor? Does he deserve being outcast? And just how far was he willing to go in the time war?
And then we get the exploration on the "promise" and deeper meaning behind the Doctor's name, very interesting stuff in Hurt's hands.
The War Doctor also had the additional benefit of bumping up the regeneration limit (what better time to finally deal with the limit than in the 50th anniversary year?) helped build the hype for Smith's imminent regeneration and the war on Trenzalore (quite tragic really-he finally comes to terms with his past as the War Doctor and saves Gallifrey only to be plunged soon afterwards into another war...) which in turn started Capaldi off completely fresh - Gallifrey is saved, the silence/trenazlore arcs are complete and he has a new mission, and plenty of new lives to explore the galaxy with once more. I also like that it shifts the blame of the time war onto an outcast Doctor who has to earn the name once more (in universe I always found the idea that he kept the name doctor in the midst of a huge war a little weird) and there's more drama and subversion working following the war doctor as he starts out as more of a 'bad guy' and gradually becomes more of a doctor as time passes rather than 8 or 9 becoming dark, it's rather more interesting from a dramatic point of view, starting out with a man who isn't the Doctor, slowly becoming more of the man once more when exposed to warfare, and looking at the cliches of the war genre through the opposite perspective. This keeps the 'proper' doctors even more of a hero figure for children, and gives all new viewers one more mystery to explore and think about when they reach the 50th Anniversary episode. That said, I'll admit there is something a little odd about the idea of the Doctor outcasting one of his incarntions, he's still the same man and anyone of them would have been forced to do the same in his shoes.
Sure, you could argue that Moffat's basic reasoning for the war doctor (he couldn't imagine McGann's Doctor as grizzled enough to press the button) was flawed, as we get to know him in a story where he's shown as more of tired, regretful cuddly old man than grzzled warrior and prevented (or overwrited depending on how you interpret the episode) from having to destroy Gallifrey in the first place, rendering much of his purpose apparently pointless, however this also proves that there was an equally flawed reasonsing for using McGann in Day Of The Doctor...what would be the point in breaking the 8th Doctor into that mindset if he was prevented for destroying Gallifrey in the first place/or played a major part in its salvation? Even the War Doctor hesitates and is saved from doing so, so it's clear if Moffat didn't want to show the 'Warrior' doing the deed, he'd be even less likely to show 8's 'proper Doctor' doing so, of course this still takes away screentime and a finality from the 8th Dr's story that the rushed NOTD perhaps didn't do.
Admittedly The Doctor has never made any secret of his actions in the war, nor denied the blood on his hands as a consequence of those actions, so in the literal sense the War Doctor wasn't a hidden incarnation in a way that really mattered as such, we'd always known that A Doctor had fought in the war, and we'd known since 'Dalek' that it was him that had 'destroyed' Gallifrey, so I can understand why the revelation about The War Doctor was for some a disappointment, the hype didn't necessarily match what we saw onscreen, but there's a limit to how dark the BBC could take things.
And yes, all other reasoning aside the gravitas of having McGann, one of the least likely Doctor's 'push the button', and destroy Gallifrey would have been amazing to see, he's a strong enough actor, and such a compelling Doctor that he would have nailed the role had it been written with him in mind i.m.o. But I'd argue having the Eigtht Doctors love of the universe and ultimately futile idealism lead to his downfall, by watching his willingness to lay down his life to save a stranger backfire and force him into finally throwing away the morals of his current regeneration, was equally memorable and surprising, and more in keeping with the general tone of his Doctor. You could certainly argue turning 8 into a warrior would have been merited or possibly expected by some as a character progression, considering the deaths of five of his companions at the hands of the daleks in the audios, the 8th Doctor has more reason than most to hold a grudge, and there would be some excellent drama hearing 8 become so angry and vengeful, but 8th Doctor has never really been written like that, he lacks the detachment and would be above holding petty grudges.
This is the man who'd rather point a gun at his own head than threaten others, who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the wreck of the R101, and the Doctor who risked his life to save Davros from the jaws of the Nightmare Child . You could argue many, if not all of the Doctors would have probably done something similar, but my point stands, Eight is generally written as a moral idealist and a romantic, he'd rather negotiate or dodge than fight, certainly not short of courage but also one who offers second chances when he dosen't have to, living very much in the moment.
Other problems I had in turning McGann into the War Doctor are simply pragmatic, as we see in Day Of The Doctor its the final day of the War, all the implied rage and fire of the War Doctors early years (given that he's by engineered especially to fight by the Sisterhood, I'm guessing he'd have more fire and rage than an already rather old and worn down 8th doctor could ever have when the time war breaks out) was long gone in Moffat's script, casual audiences wouldn't have any idea as to how McGann's romantic scatterbrained adventurer had become this broken and battle hardened, its hardly fair to go and say to them 'Go and listen to several decades of audios, which are years away from catching up to this point anyway to get the implied context, by the way due to the BBC charter we can't really refer to the audios directly in the show anyway' to get them caught up with the Doctor's change in temperament. McGann's Doctor was so full of life and energy, it's very hard for me personally to picture him so cold and broken, but maybe I'm simply reading to much into things and people would have accepted it any way.
We saw the Doctors soul being saved by the moment, just a different Doctor, one perhaps even more tragically deserving of it, The War Doctor had spent his entire lifespan fighting an endless war, knowing on this final day as he chooses to detonate the moment it was all utterly pointless, only to be saved the actions of his successors, from a personal point of view I find it easier to 'get with' the redemption of a Warrior who in his words 'did it without choice' yet gradually walks back along the path to being the Doctor (I know some complained that in DOTD The War Doctor wasn't too bloodthirsty, merely exhausted, that was the point I think, John Hurt in DOTD wasn't the boogeyman 10 and 11's memories had made him out to be) rather than the actions of a the 8th Doctor who did it willingly.
Although I'm generally of the opinion the Time War should remain largely untold, the War Doctor certainly adds to the mystery, interest and tragedy of the conflict for me, and I find the idea of a warrior walking along a path back to being the Doctor, rather than a Doctor being broken into a warrior more true to the character and series tone and rather more interesting from a character stand point. The War Doctor acts as an interesting parallel to many of 8s key character traits, and now gives us two time war Doctor with very different goals and viewpoints of the conflict.
Personally I thought John Hurt gave a magnificent performance as the War Doctor, making the most of his limited screentime, I enjoyed his/Moffat's interpretation of the character very much, I'm hopeful we'll see more and more of his doctor in the audios/books etc as the years pass, McGann would have undoubtedly done great things in the part, but honestly I think things worked out for the best.
But that's just my opinion. Somewhat ironically The War Doctor seems to have become one of Hurt's most famous/popular roles with the public (if his official facebook page is anything to go by) his casting certainly got me interested in the show again in a way I had't felt for several years. But each to their own. Well for many of the reasons you quote above I think DOTD would have been a very different story with Eight in it instead of the War Doctor, and I agree that it's nice to now have the richness of the two different doctors to draw on in audio. So in retrospect, Who is undoubtedly richer for the introduction of the character. my point was merely that it wasn't something that was forced on Moffat by Christopher Eccleston refusing to appear. (albeit I did phrase it quite negatively, my old Gallifrey Base Moffat bashing habits coming back to bite me)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 18:18:30 GMT
It is something I've been thinking about. If you look at BF in the past year, and look at what is coming out they have very quietly been increasing the number of writers working for them across the various lines & ranges. Guy Adams, AK Benedict, Simon Bernard & Paul Morris, Phil Mulryne, Ken Bentley, Jenny T. Colgan and Louise Jameson. Also we are seeing Paul Magrs writing again for BF and Eddie Robson showing his word processor again. None of that even includes the writers we see so often. Fitton, Dorney, Briggs, Barnes, Richards, Morris, Smith, Potter, Guerrier and the like. That list doesn't even take into account all the writers the Dark Shadows range employs. On the director end we see Scott Handcock doing more stuff, Jamie Anderson working with the Monthly Range and Lou pulling triple duty. Anyway, it just seems to me that Big Finish has been expanding on the creative end. I've noticed that too, and am assuming that if those authors work out we'll get a lot more from them in future. Which could start to increase the bandwidth. all we need now are directors and producers.
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Post by acousticwolf on Feb 11, 2016 18:49:35 GMT
It is something I've been thinking about. If you look at BF in the past year, and look at what is coming out they have very quietly been increasing the number of writers working for them across the various lines & ranges. Guy Adams, AK Benedict, Simon Bernard & Paul Morris, Phil Mulryne, Ken Bentley, Jenny T. Colgan and Louise Jameson. Also we are seeing Paul Magrs writing again for BF and Eddie Robson showing his word processor again. None of that even includes the writers we see so often. Fitton, Dorney, Briggs, Barnes, Richards, Morris, Smith, Potter, Guerrier and the like. That list doesn't even take into account all the writers the Dark Shadows range employs. On the director end we see Scott Handcock doing more stuff, Jamie Anderson working with the Monthly Range and Lou pulling triple duty. Anyway, it just seems to me that Big Finish has been expanding on the creative end. I've noticed that too, and am assuming that if those authors work out we'll get a lot more from them in future. Which could start to increase the bandwidth. all we need now are directors and producers. The other thing is that BF might be downsizing some ranges too. The announcement that the Liberator Chronicles is stopping after 12 doesn't actually mean there will be lots more full cast stories instead. They could just keep a series of 6 full cast audios a year. There was also talk that Dark Shadows might end up being a series of full cast audios instead of both dramatic readings and full cast. Then there's the Dorian Gray range that is due to end after the next series. If all this happens, it does open gaps for "new" ranges. Cheers Tony
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Feb 11, 2016 19:00:02 GMT
I've noticed that too, and am assuming that if those authors work out we'll get a lot more from them in future. Which could start to increase the bandwidth. all we need now are directors and producers. The other thing is that BF might be downsizing some ranges too. The announcement that the Liberator Chronicles is stopping after 12 doesn't actually mean there will be lots more full cast stories instead. They could just keep a series of 6 full cast audios a year. There was also talk that Dark Shadows might end up being a series of full cast audios instead of both dramatic readings and full cast. Then there's the Dorian Gray range that is due to end after the next series. If all this happens, it does open gaps for "new" ranges. Cheers Tony It is a good point and in the case of Bake's 7 & Dark Shadows, it certainly sheds a light on what would seem to sell. Full cast as opposed to companion chronicles style dramatic readings. And I guess that also applies to Doctor Who.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Feb 11, 2016 19:04:53 GMT
I've noticed that too, and am assuming that if those authors work out we'll get a lot more from them in future. Which could start to increase the bandwidth. all we need now are directors and producers. The other thing is that BF might be downsizing some ranges too. The announcement that the Liberator Chronicles is stopping after 12 doesn't actually mean there will be lots more full cast stories instead. I wouldn't be surprised if BF stopped doing "Blake's 7". The people who actually own the B7 right have recently announced that they'll be making a Dan Dare series themselves, so it's hardly inconcievable to think that they might bring B7 back in-house. (Incidentally, have you ever tried working out a hypothetical schedule for if Big Finish got all surviving Doctors (plus the recast three earliest) regularly appearing? Pure market saturation and out the other side. If Big Finish announced a Matt Smith and Arthur Darvill box set, I'd probably bite their metaphorical hand off, but there's only so many plays they can produce and only so many people can afford to buy - or afford the time to listen to. I'm so far behind on stuff that I own that my mind boggles at the fans who keep up with all the audios and comics and everything without ever seeming to slip behind.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2016 19:36:54 GMT
The other thing is that BF might be downsizing some ranges too. The announcement that the Liberator Chronicles is stopping after 12 doesn't actually mean there will be lots more full cast stories instead. I wouldn't be surprised if BF stopped doing "Blake's 7". The people who actually own the B7 right have recently announced that they'll be making a Dan Dare series themselves, so it's hardly inconcievable to think that they might bring B7 back in-house. (Incidentally, have you ever tried working out a hypothetical schedule for if Big Finish got all surviving Doctors (plus the recast three earliest) regularly appearing? Pure market saturation and out the other side. If Big Finish announced a Matt Smith and Arthur Darvill box set, I'd probably bite their metaphorical hand off, but there's only so many plays they can produce and only so many people can afford to buy - or afford the time to listen to. I'm so far behind on stuff that I own that my mind boggles at the fans who keep up with all the audios and comics and everything without ever seeming to slip behind.) Apparently B7 media have lost the rights and BF now have th sole audio rights. Hence the very very cheap price for which BF are selling off the B7 media relaunch audios (buried very deep in their website)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2016 14:11:29 GMT
The other thing is that BF might be downsizing some ranges too. The announcement that the Liberator Chronicles is stopping after 12 doesn't actually mean there will be lots more full cast stories instead. They could just keep a series of 6 full cast audios a year. There was also talk that Dark Shadows might end up being a series of full cast audios instead of both dramatic readings and full cast. Then there's the Dorian Gray range that is due to end after the next series. If all this happens, it does open gaps for "new" ranges. Cheers Tony It is a good point and in the case of Bake's 7 & Dark Shadows, it certainly sheds a light on what would seem to sell. Full cast as opposed to companion chronicles style dramatic readings. And I guess that also applies to Doctor Who. I would have thought - and please bear in mind I know nothing about such things, just speculating - that full-casts cost so much more to produce, they would have to sell a lot more than Companion Chronicles-style releases just to break even. This is why I'm surprised the 'readings' seem to be shelved when they must be so much more cost-effective to produce.
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Post by randomjc on Feb 12, 2016 14:17:03 GMT
It is a good point and in the case of Bake's 7 & Dark Shadows, it certainly sheds a light on what would seem to sell. Full cast as opposed to companion chronicles style dramatic readings. And I guess that also applies to Doctor Who. I would have thought - and please bear in mind I know nothing about such things, just speculating - that full-casts cost so much more to produce, they would have to sell a lot more than Companion Chronicles-style releases just to break even. This is why I'm surprised the 'readings' seem to be shelved when they must be so much more cost-effective to produce. Perhaps the full casts sell more, enough to say that more a profit is driven by the full cast than the readings.
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Post by anothermanicmondas on Feb 13, 2016 17:42:06 GMT
It's no surprise that with the expanded license that the top priorities would be 1) War Doctor/Time war - because of the significance of this gap, the limited on-screen portrayal of this incarnation and Nick's love of war movies (and possibly concerns about John Hurt's age and health) 2) getting back together with their old mate DT
the situation with Matt Smith could be similar to their early difficulties getting Paul McGann. Doubtless, there will be future Big Finish releases involving him (unless something prevents this).
Ecclestone - I'm getting mixed messages - some say he enjoyed the role but quit because of some of the other people but is too professional to bad-mouth anyone by going into detail. Maybe we should gas him unconscious, take him to a remote village and refuse to let him leave unless he says why he resigned - or would that be crazy?
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Post by mrperson on Feb 13, 2016 18:28:18 GMT
Ecclestone - I'm getting mixed messages - some say he enjoyed the role but quit because of some of the other people but is too professional to bad-mouth anyone by going into detail. Maybe we should gas him unconscious, take him to a remote village and refuse to let him leave unless he says why he resigned - or would that be crazy? Yes, very much so. If you're going to all that trouble, you might as well make him record a few audios.
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Post by jasonward on Feb 13, 2016 18:49:19 GMT
Why does it matter why he quit the role, no one can do anything about that now.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Feb 13, 2016 19:05:04 GMT
Why does it matter why he quit the role, no one can do anything about that now. To The Tardis!
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Post by anothermanicmondas on Feb 13, 2016 21:39:08 GMT
Why does it matter why he quit the role, no one can do anything about that now. if you know the reason he left, you may find hints as to what may encourage or discourage him from doing audios (I admit abducting him would probably discourage him, making it a bad idea)
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Post by mrperson on Feb 14, 2016 0:42:04 GMT
Why does it matter why he quit the role, no one can do anything about that now. Well, if it's because he didn't really like being The Doctor, then there's not much point in asking him to come to BF. But if he did it because of strife within BBC, then there is every point in asking him to come to BF.
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Post by seeley on Feb 14, 2016 0:59:09 GMT
Why does it matter why he quit the role, no one can do anything about that now. Well, if it's because he didn't really like being The Doctor, then there's not much point in asking him to come to BF. But if he did it because of strife within BBC, then there is every point in asking him to come to BF. I think it's a combination of the latter and him not wanting to dip in the same pond twice. I doubt he'd have the same reservations about doing Big Finish.
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