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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 24, 2018 15:36:17 GMT
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Post by theotherjosh on Oct 24, 2018 17:56:16 GMT
I’ve been watching the episodes on Amazon this time around, and since they don’t drop until about 3 am my time, I’m seeing them a bit later than the people in my social media feed. People were declaring it the best/most important episode in the entire 55 years of the series. I’ve had good stories ruined for me by improperly calibrated expectations, so I went in with cautious optimism.
I think the end result is a sincere and well-written episode, but one that ultimately misses the mark.
The baddie was…serviceable. He fails to reach the transcendent heights set by “Guy with some teeth stuck to his face” or “talking bedsheets” from earlier in the season, but he did the job. I think on some level he was intentionally ridiculous. What was his name? Kronk? (Google tells me it’s Krasko) I suspect that was to highlight the absurdity of racism. I don’t think they needed to hang that lampshade quite so conspicuously, but sure, fine, whatever. He is ridiculous and by extension so are his beliefs. He was a cipher. He wasn’t a character; he was an obstacle. But that's what he needed to be, because attitudes were the real villain of the story.
My wife is much more informed about the details of the historical facts of the matter than I am (she’s the director of empowerment for a non-profit), so she was able to add specifics to some of my problems with the episode. Specifically, it wasn't a spontaneous act. MLK and other leaders in the community had spoken to pastors and the whole thing was very well-organized. That's how they were ready with a bus boycott the next Monday. Their plan didn't hinge on some Byzantine Light Yagami fingers-steepled "Exactly as planned" contrivance. I'm sure some contingencies were built in. "Oh, it didn't work today. We'll try again tomorrow. And tomorrow. Until we get it."
And yes, I realize Doctor Who is not history and just as the Mona Lisa doesn’t have “This is a fake” written on the canvas, events didn’t transpire exactly as depicted on screen, and further, fiction requires a certain amount of buy-in, but in a story that’s intended in large part as a didactic work I think it’s a disservice to the other men and women in the civil rights movement, and ultimately to Parks herself, because its presents her protest as a product of happenstance instead of conviction.
Aside from that, I think making every white Southerner Rod Steiger from In the Heat of the Night was the biggest missed opportunity of the episode. Not everyone in such an environment is an active racist. Indifference and enablement are necessary for the state of affairs to continue. The lesson seemed to be that only obviously racist sentiments are actually racist, and that’s not true. Systemic racism is more pernicious and it's present even among people who consider themselves tolerant. This is a mistake that even ostensible liberals in 2018 continue to make.
Having the Doctor and company clear the path for Rosa to shine was the absolute right choice. I do think that aspect was handled well from a narrative perspective, even if the Doctor’s actual plan for investigating it was absolute garbage “We’re at a flashpoint of human history. To me, my team of extremely conspicuous companions! Make as much noise as possible while investigating this highly sensitive matter!”
I would have liked it if the Doctor had sussed out Kronk’s inhibitor chip on her own and verified it through the sonic rather than scanning him and finding it. Let’s not fall back on using it as a crutch for lazy story-telling.
The good stuff. Chinball’s character work remains extremely strong. I think that’s how his era will be remembered. I liked the little details, like how Graham came to Ryan’s defense immediately. He’s got the most room for growth. The conversation behind the dumpster was good, the running gag about Yaz being Mexican wasn’t funny, but it felt real.
It was ambitious, and though it didn’t quite hit the mark I’m glad that they made the attempt.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Oct 24, 2018 18:19:04 GMT
I’ve been watching the episodes on Amazon this time around, and since they don’t drop until about 3 am my time, I’m seeing them a bit later than the people in my social media feed. People were declaring it the best/most important episode in the entire 55 years of the series. I’ve had good stories ruined for me by improperly calibrated expectations, so I went in with cautious optimism.
I think the end result is a sincere and well-written episode, but one that ultimately misses the mark.
The baddie was…serviceable. He fails to reach the transcendent heights set by “Guy with some teeth stuck to his face” or “talking bedsheets” from earlier in the season, but he did the job. I think on some level he was intentionally ridiculous. What was his name? Kronk? (Google tells me it’s Krasko) I suspect that was to highlight the absurdity of racism. I don’t think they needed to hang that lampshade quite so conspicuously, but sure, fine, whatever. He is ridiculous and by extension so are his beliefs. He was a cipher. He wasn’t a character; he was an obstacle. But that's what he needed to be, because attitudes were the real villain of the story.
My wife is much more informed about the details of the historical facts of the matter than I am (she’s the director of empowerment for a non-profit), so she was able to add specifics to some of my problems with the episode. Specifically, it wasn't a spontaneous act. MLK and other leaders in the community had spoken to pastors and the whole thing was very well-organized. That's how they were ready with a bus boycott the next Monday. Their plan didn't hinge on some Byzantine Light Yagami fingers-steepled "Exactly as planned" contrivance. I'm sure some contingencies were built in. "Oh, it didn't work today. We'll try again tomorrow. And tomorrow. Until we get it."
And yes, I realize Doctor Who is not history and just as the Mona Lisa doesn’t have “This is a fake” written on the canvas, events didn’t transpire exactly as depicted on screen, and further, fiction requires a certain amount of buy-in, but in a story that’s intended in large part as a didactic work I think it’s a disservice to the other men and women in the civil rights movement, and ultimately to Parks herself, because its presents her protest as a product of happenstance instead of conviction.
Aside from that, I think making every white Southerner Rod Steiger from In the Heat of the Night was the biggest missed opportunity of the episode. Not everyone in such an environment is an active racist. Indifference and enablement are necessary for the state of affairs to continue. The lesson seemed to be that only obviously racist sentiments are actually racist, and that’s not true. Systemic racism is more pernicious and it's present even among people who consider themselves tolerant. This is a mistake that even ostensible liberals in 2018 continue to make.
Having the Doctor and company clear the path for Rosa to shine was the absolute right choice. I do think that aspect was handled well from a narrative perspective, even if the Doctor’s actual plan for investigating it was absolute garbage “We’re at a flashpoint of human history. To me, my team of extremely conspicuous companions! Make as much noise as possible while investigating this highly sensitive matter!”
I would have liked it if the Doctor had sussed out Kronk’s inhibitor chip on her own and verified it through the sonic rather than scanning him and finding it. Let’s not fall back on using it as a crutch for lazy story-telling.
The good stuff. Chinball’s character work remains extremely strong. I think that’s how his era will be remembered. I liked the little details, like how Graham came to Ryan’s defense immediately. He’s got the most room for growth. The conversation behind the dumpster was good, the running gag about Yaz being Mexican wasn’t funny, but it felt real.
It was ambitious, and though it didn’t quite hit the mark I’m glad that they made the attempt.
That was great Josh. Thank you.
And Josh, my one real gripe with the episode was the one sized racist blanket. Yes not everyone was horrible and there were those who did sympathize with the movement, those who spoke out against injustice and tried to help but within the confines of a 50 minute run time I don't know that that kind of nuance could have been effectively shown or if it served the story. So I just let it pass.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 24, 2018 19:57:38 GMT
My wife is much more informed about the details of the historical facts of the matter than I am (she’s the director of empowerment for a non-profit), so she was able to add specifics to some of my problems with the episode. Specifically, it wasn't a spontaneous act. MLK and other leaders in the community had spoken to pastors and the whole thing was very well-organized. That's how they were ready with a bus boycott the next Monday. Their plan didn't hinge on some Byzantine Light Yagami fingers-steepled "Exactly as planned" contrivance. I'm sure some contingencies were built in. "Oh, it didn't work today. We'll try again tomorrow. And tomorrow. Until we get it."
And yes, I realize Doctor Who is not history and just as the Mona Lisa doesn’t have “This is a fake” written on the canvas, events didn’t transpire exactly as depicted on screen, and further, fiction requires a certain amount of buy-in, but in a story that’s intended in large part as a didactic work I think it’s a disservice to the other men and women in the civil rights movement, and ultimately to Parks herself, because its presents her protest as a product of happenstance instead of conviction.
Aside from that, I think making every white Southerner Rod Steiger from In the Heat of the Night was the biggest missed opportunity of the episode. Not everyone in such an environment is an active racist. Indifference and enablement are necessary for the state of affairs to continue. The lesson seemed to be that only obviously racist sentiments are actually racist, and that’s not true. Systemic racism is more pernicious and it's present even among people who consider themselves tolerant. This is a mistake that even ostensible liberals in 2018 continue to make.
I was going write this up as just a general response to a particular point online, regarding white residents. Some of it just happens to dovetail with yours: The fact Rosa had to do this at all probably says all it needs to about 'the good whites' of Montgomery in this scenario. Speaking as a screenwriter, there would've been little point in having extra side-characters cluttering up the episode, offering hollow condolences to Ryan and adding little to the themes. It would've also taken the focus off of painting this system's ugliness (and the fact that Twitter reaction has been so strong, I believe, suggests maybe this 'obviously racist sentiments are actually racist' is not as universal as any of us has probably hoped) and crossed the line into 'white guilt' and the 'white saviour' tropes, which would've been dead-wrong and disrespectful. In the end, it's not a story about the white citizens of Montgomery: it's a story both about how history is decided by small actions that blossom, and a reminder of how recent this battle started, in a world where 'racist' doesn't have the ironclad definition it used to, or perhaps some want it to.
Also, I'd argue that while perhaps a more overt confirmation would've been handy, I didn't read the episode as presenting the boycott as entirely spontaenous: the coffee scene with King, and Rosa's behaviour around that, felt too formal and 'business' to be just a social call or novelty. Plus, throughout, there's an indication in both Robinson's performance and some of her lines that she's not just a seamstress: she clearly knows of bigger things afoot and that she has something to do. Tomaeto tomato perhaps, but that's just my take.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 24, 2018 20:14:10 GMT
On the fact vs fiction question about the episode, well, here's a little shout otu:
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Post by mark687 on Oct 24, 2018 20:25:40 GMT
Its strange that they've got the scene to fix the co-ordination flaw Ryan could mention about Tomorrow to Rosa and Dr King and that would be it.
Having Reviewed the BloggerWho piece is it a flaw anyway.
Regards
mark687
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Post by agentten on Oct 24, 2018 20:29:55 GMT
There was something of a Quantum Leap feel to the episode. On Quantum Leap, Sam always had to find ways to right the course of history, sometimes during major historical events. As I recall, there was even another leaper around the final season of the show that worked against Sam by disrupting history.
Three episodes into this season and I'm a fan. I'm really enjoying the way the companions are developing and meshing together. There's a subtle approach to some of the Doctor's leadership where she provides opportunities for each of them to shine by letting them know what needs to be done and then letting them realize that they can do it. She empowers them by knowing what makes them who they are, which allows us to see them grow into their roles. I found the episode powerful and I think they managed to do some interesting things with the setting. The increasing quiet and background stares in the restaurant, for example, were well done. I felt the vibe of the room creep into the scene and realized what was happening, then watching as the characters began to realize, too, made for effective dramatic tension.
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Post by mrperson on Oct 24, 2018 20:50:03 GMT
My wife is much more informed about the details of the historical facts of the matter than I am (she’s the director of empowerment for a non-profit), so she was able to add specifics to some of my problems with the episode. Specifically, it wasn't a spontaneous act. MLK and other leaders in the community had spoken to pastors and the whole thing was very well-organized. That's how they were ready with a bus boycott the next Monday. Their plan didn't hinge on some Byzantine Light Yagami fingers-steepled "Exactly as planned" contrivance. I'm sure some contingencies were built in. "Oh, it didn't work today. We'll try again tomorrow. And tomorrow. Until we get it."
And yes, I realize Doctor Who is not history and just as the Mona Lisa doesn’t have “This is a fake” written on the canvas, events didn’t transpire exactly as depicted on screen, and further, fiction requires a certain amount of buy-in, but in a story that’s intended in large part as a didactic work I think it’s a disservice to the other men and women in the civil rights movement, and ultimately to Parks herself, because its presents her protest as a product of happenstance instead of conviction.
Interesting.
On the one hand, yes you're right, it didn't have to go exactly as it always went specifically because it was planned in advance.
But on the other hand, I thought the episode telegraphed that it was planned via the scene where Ryan arrives at the meeting between Rosa, King, and the other guy. So it seemed more of a contradiction on the episode's own terms to me than a fudging of history.
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Post by theotherjosh on Oct 24, 2018 21:40:29 GMT
I was going write this up as just a general response to a particular point online, regarding white residents. Some of it just happens to dovetail with yours:The fact Rosa had to do this at all probably says all it needs to about 'the good whites' of Montgomery in this scenario. Speaking as a screenwriter, there would've been little point in having extra side-characters cluttering up the episode, offering hollow condolences to Ryan and adding little to the themes. It would've also taken the focus off of painting this system's ugliness (and the fact that Twitter reaction has been so strong, I believe, suggests maybe this 'obviously racist sentiments are actually racist' is not as universal as any of us has probably hoped) and crossed the line into 'white guilt' and the 'white saviour' tropes, which would've been dead-wrong and disrespectful. In the end, it's not a story about the white citizens of Montgomery: it's a story both about how history is decided by small actions that blossom, and a reminder of how recent this battle started, in a world where 'racist' doesn't have the ironclad definition it used to, or perhaps some want it to I see what you're saying, but I think I failed to communicate the point I was trying to get across. I wasn't looking for sympathetic whites, for all the issues you outline. It would dilute the point of the episode. Rather, I thought that by opening with a literal slap across the face the episode implies that violence and overt threats are the only real kind of racism, and it ignores the more subtle societal issues that allow such a system to continue. I'm not looking for "good whites"; I'm looking for "slightly less awful whites who are more circumspect in their racism". And I do realize that there is an element of, “Well, I would have done it differently,” to my complaints, which isn't always a fair critique. Also, I'd argue that while perhaps a more overt confirmation would've been handy, I didn't read the episode as presenting the boycott as entirely spontaenous: the coffee scene with King, and Rosa's behaviour around that, felt too formal and 'business' to be just a social call or novelty. Plus, throughout, there's an indication in both Robinson's performance and some of her lines that she's not just a seamstress: she clearly knows of bigger things afoot and that she has something to do. Tomaeto tomato perhaps, but that's just my take. I’d have to watch the episode again with this in mind. My takeaway was that the Parks in the episode was already involved in the Civil Rights movement, but they weren’t planning her bus protest specifically. Otherwise, it would have made no sense to take on the commission to fix the coat, even at the rates she was offered.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 24, 2018 21:51:08 GMT
Also, I'd argue that while perhaps a more overt confirmation would've been handy, I didn't read the episode as presenting the boycott as entirely spontaenous: the coffee scene with King, and Rosa's behaviour around that, felt too formal and 'business' to be just a social call or novelty. Plus, throughout, there's an indication in both Robinson's performance and some of her lines that she's not just a seamstress: she clearly knows of bigger things afoot and that she has something to do. Tomaeto tomato perhaps, but that's just my take. I’d have to watch the episode again with this in mind. My takeaway was that the Parks in the episode was already involved in the Civil Rights movement, but they weren’t planning her bus protest specifically. Otherwise, it would have made no sense to take on the commission to fix the coat, even at the rates she was offered. I imagine there's probably a deleted scene that would've cleared this aspect up, but they cut it for time reasons or maybe Tonderai thought the coffee scene was enough.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 24, 2018 22:01:01 GMT
Another point about 'the protest was actually planned' element: even if the rights group had backups for other protests, in the context of the episode, Rosa's action is the correct historical pathway, so our travellers had to keep it on track. Plus, who's to say Krasko may not have already had plans to muck up the backups too, further derailing history and getting his 'back in place' outcome?
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 24, 2018 23:08:14 GMT
I’d have to watch the episode again with this in mind. My takeaway was that the Parks in the episode was already involved in the Civil Rights movement, but they weren’t planning her bus protest specifically. Otherwise, it would have made no sense to take on the commission to fix the coat, even at the rates she was offered. I think you may be right that the episode could have been a little bit clearer about the premeditation of the protest, but I think there still may be some element of happenstance - you could pick a specific day and time to make a protest but it might be hard to guarantee the right number of passengers to ensure an opportunity and so forth. It may not have been possible to have any rigid formula for a successful protest, or a rigid timetable (hence Rosa being at some liberty to take the coat commission). I got a strong sense of that just from the lengths The Doctor and friends had to go to get events back on track, and also from how insistent The Doctor was that nothing was changed. Maybe it wouldn't have really mattered if it had been a different driver or a different day, but things were just too important to be taking any chances with. (It seemed to me like the Doctor's dedication to detail in preventing history from being changed here also underscored the point about the difference that small changes can sometimes make, something I think the villain seemed to be keenly aware of and incessantly trying to corrupt to his own advantage, which made him seem more like something to actually reckon with, even for a lack of familiarity and substance). I think that air of uncertainty about what all exactly fell together that day really helped put the spotlight firmly on the importance of Rosa Parks herself to events, for having had the quality of character and the dignity and courage to have helped inspire people to action even in the most immediate sense. I was incredibly moved by that and how well it was communicated.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Oct 25, 2018 0:37:18 GMT
I may be reading too much into the writers' intent but as regarding planning Rosa and co don't have a clue as to "it has to happen on this day in this way", they have a plan, an outline, and it's been building for a while considering we start 12 years earlier in Rosa's personal timeline, as far as they are concerned it can happen tomorrow, or the day after or whenever it happens. The movement is the thing and the plan can shift as far as they're concerned. It is only us, the Doctor and her gang, and Krasko, that KNOW that it has to happen on that day in that exact way. So there is a tension between the two (three) groups there. So, yes, narrative short cuts and so on but it still works IMO.
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Post by number13 on Oct 26, 2018 9:22:55 GMT
(Sorry in advance for a long post but this was always going to be a discussion-provoking episode so please bear with me.)
I finally found a quiet Wednesday evening to watch 'Rosa' without interruption (or spoilers, avoiding which was an effort!) and mostly I thought it was an excellent historical episode but with a couple of sci-fi points I didn't like so much and one big sci-fi fail (his name was Krasko, cardboard cut-out character from the 79thC, but I'd need a whole other post - and some maths - to say everything I think was flawed and improbable with his part of the storyline/timeline!) I'd been hoping for a pure historical for various reasons and even though that wasn't how the story was delivered, I thought Montgomery, 1955 was depicted with gripping intensity. The collision of modern people (Time travellers and viewers) with the systematic racism of that time and place was riveting and often stomach-turning viewing. I still think this story would have been even more memorable if it had been told without the distraction of any time travel elements beyond (obviously) the Doctor and her friends. There were so many great scenes on the 'pure historical' side of the episode and perhaps the most telling scene wasn't one of the showy ones, but the thoughtful and thought-provoking conversation between Yas and Ryan while hiding out in the alleyway.
Although I had half-expected that (to please modern audiences) it wouldn't be the pure historical I'd hoped for, I hadn't expected quite such a 'Back to the Future'-style story of timeline interference and repair. (And BTTF (I and partly II) was coincidentally set in 1955.) Still, apart from two sci-fi caveats (and Krasko), I thought this side of the story was also well done, with its will-they/won't-they-succeed tension - even though we all knew they had to succeed.
I'm very grateful for Josh's earlier post which reassured me that I was correctly remembering a documentary I saw several years ago, about the real events. Rosa Parks' brave defiance was carefully planned as part of the much larger organised protests that followed and I wish this had been made clear, because imo knowing that fact makes it an even more inspiring story of people organising against tyranny. It's true the meeting Ryan attended looked like a planning meeting (if we already knew that it probably was), but this hint fell away later with Rosa seemingly more interested in repairing the Doctor's coat than in catching the specific bus.
I guess that this was partly realistic - since the campaigners' plan depended on Rosa riding a crowded bus so she would be told to give up her seat, exactly which bus/day the protest actually began on must have been somewhat unpredictable - or maybe rush-hour buses were routinely crowded? The problem with this in the episode was that the BTTF-style approach emphasised it as a fixed point in Time which could not re-occur on the next day or the next full bus - when of course as the start of an organised protest it could have been done just as effectively on any full bus with presumably a day or two to spare; State law was the oppressor, not an individual driver of one particular bus.
Also, by making the precise timing of Rosa's protest a critical moment which had to be defended against Krasko, surely it is now Whoniverse history that without the Doctor's help all the change that followed wouldn't have happened? I didn't like that idea and I don't believe it could ever have been true. Krasko stopping one event would ultimately have changed nothing because courageous people were organising and determined to change everything, that day or maybe the next, but very soon.
Allowing for those caveats on the sci-fi side, I thought the historical side of the episode and the production values were superb. I'd have preferred a gospel song of the period instead of the pop song, but that's a minor point in a most memorable episode.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 26, 2018 9:49:44 GMT
Regardless of where your own stance is on the finer details, I think we can all agree this was an important episode for both this era and the showrunner: it very clearly deliniates that, though our new era will be more family-friendly, with a lighter tone and a more sweet, adorable Doctor, it will not be a 'sanitized' or 'Disney-fied' era. There are ugly things out there in our own history, and possibly future as well as present, and Chris isn't going to handwave it ala 'Shakespeare Code'.
With Demons of Punjab up soon, I'm now really curious how much of the Hindu v Muslim divide will be spotlighted, since that was a major part of partition.
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Post by number13 on Oct 26, 2018 10:09:39 GMT
Regardless of where your own stance is on the finer details, I think we can all agree this was an important episode for both this era and the showrunner: it very clearly deliniates that, though our new era will be more family-friendly, with a lighter tone and a more sweet, adorable Doctor, it will not be a 'sanitized' or 'Disney-fied' era. There are ugly things out there in our own history, and possibly future as well as present, and Chris isn't going to handwave it ala 'Shakespeare Code'. With Demons of Punjab up soon, I'm now really curious how much of the Hindu v Muslim divide will be spotlighted, since that was a major part of partition. "Sweet?! Sweet?!" What a word to describe The (formerly) Last of the Time Lords, The Oncoming Storm etc!
(And FWIW I adored the Capaldi Doctor though not in the way I think you mean!)
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Post by stcoop on Oct 30, 2018 12:02:04 GMT
Final figure for this episode is 8.36 million.
It's amazing to see the series getting these sort of numbers again after years of convincing ourselves that 5-6 was good enough all things considered.
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Post by newt5996 on Oct 30, 2018 19:59:49 GMT
Final figure for this episode is 8.36 million. It's amazing to see the series getting these sort of numbers again after years of convincing ourselves that 5-6 was good enough all things considered. Is that a joke? Because those are amazing numbers.
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Post by masterdoctor on Oct 30, 2018 20:40:22 GMT
Final figure for this episode is 8.36 million. It's amazing to see the series getting these sort of numbers again after years of convincing ourselves that 5-6 was good enough all things considered. I mean I agree that these numbers are great, but 5-6 million is very good for shows in general. Why is there such a dismissal of that. The Capaldi years were by no way a failure and to act as if they were would be a bit disingenuous and a disservice to the hard work put into those episodes whether or not you enjoy them or not.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 30, 2018 20:52:30 GMT
Final figure for this episode is 8.36 million. It's amazing to see the series getting these sort of numbers again after years of convincing ourselves that 5-6 was good enough all things considered. I mean I agree that these numbers are great, but 5-6 million is very good for shows in general. Why is there such a dismissal of that. The Capaldi years were by no way a failure and to act as if they were would be a bit disingenuous and a disservice to the hard work put into those episodes whether or not you enjoy them or not. 5s and 6s aren't a bad number, if they're just your overnights and relative to the budget of the series. The problem comes when that's your overalls or when that's your high point of the series' numbers. Capaldi was regularly stuck in the 3s overnight which is a big problem for a non-soap drama. Easties and its ilk can get away with those numbers because of how cheaply they're produced: Who can't. Just ask Vanity Fair how well it did on 4s.
Admire hard work yes, but the numbers don't care.
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