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Post by doctorkernow on Jan 5, 2019 15:38:29 GMT
Hello again.
The vitriolic, hate-filled, gleeful demolition of series 11 is a mystery to me. It has almost turned into a cottage industry on YouTube.
The series was okay. I enjoyed the historical stories, nice to see them back. Jodie's Doctor is good. My favourite scene is still her discussion with James I. Her TARDIS crew are fine but poor Yaz is usually underused.
This episode typifies the problem I have with Chibnall's stories. I find them ok,but not engaging. Resolution was a straightforward homage to Dalek with a dash of Ryan grappling with his family thrown in.
Now, I enjoyed RTD's approach to the domestic because it slotted into Who as a humourous backdrop. However, when the cafe scene appeared it killed the story stone dead. It wouldn't have been out of place on Eastenders.
There was some great work from Charlotte Ritchie as the Dalek's first victim and the Dalek's junkyard aesthetic was interesting. However, lugging a microwave everywhere did not make much sense. Also, there is no way, Ryan's Dad would have been able to hold on.
Ohh, I wanted to like this and the rest of the series so much. Unfortunately, for me I was reminded of Davison series 20. Okay, but nothing really remarkable. I am hoping that we have a bit more Doctor Who and bit less Eastenders next year.
Also, more guest writers, Chibnall is ok, but would be better employed thinking up a proper series arc. Maybe he should work with the writing team devising a series twelve that makes everyone sit up and engage in Doctor Who again.
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Jan 5, 2019 16:41:28 GMT
Maybe he should work with the writing team devising a series twelve that makes everyone sit up and engage in Doctor Who again. No one has ever made a season that makes EVERYONE sit up and engage in Doctor Who again, have they? As much as it was perfectly enjoyable - good but not often amazing - season *for me*, there's an awful lot of people who would say series eleven DID make them sit up and engage in Doctor Who again. (Of course an awful lot of them then spend more time talking about what they perceived to be wrong with the Moffat era than what they perceive to be right about the Chibnall one but that says more about them than about series eleven.)
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Post by doctorkernow on Jan 5, 2019 17:05:28 GMT
Hello again.
Very true bobod. What one person really enjoys another finds uninspiring. I am aware that a lot of viewers did re-engage with the show.
It was Rosa that really set the bar for this season. Demons of Punjab too addressed a new period of history for Doctor Who. The Witchfinders was a great debut story from Joy Wilkinson. Kerblam and It Takes You Away had some really good bits.
My point really is that I think Mr Chibnall's stories did not engage me as much as those written by the guest writers. While not everyone will enjoy what season 12 brings, I think a different approach is needed.
Perhaps having the series runner write half the season is mistake. Mr Chibnall should oversee the writers, maybe writing the opener and the finale.
As a group the writers could work out a story arc or a theme for the season or just concentrate on producing a set of interesting and varied individual stories. I look forward to series twelve and seeing what happens.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 17:19:02 GMT
Hello again. The vitriolic, hate-filled, gleeful demolition of series 11 is a mystery to me. It has almost turned into a cottage industry on YouTube. The series was okay. I enjoyed the historical stories, nice to see them back. Jodie's Doctor is good. My favourite scene is still her discussion with James I. Her TARDIS crew are fine but poor Yaz is usually underused. This episode typifies the problem I have with Chibnall's stories. I find them ok,but not engaging. Resolution was a straightforward homage to Dalek with a dash of Ryan grappling with his family thrown in. Now, I enjoyed RTD's approach to the domestic because it slotted into Who as a humourous backdrop. However, when the cafe scene appeared it killed the story stone dead. It wouldn't have been out of place on Eastenders. There was some great work from Charlotte Ritchie as the Dalek's first victim and the Dalek's junkyard aesthetic was interesting. However, lugging a microwave everywhere did not make much sense. Also, there is no way, Ryan's Dad would have been able to hold on. Ohh, I wanted to like this and the rest of the series so much. Unfortunately, for me I was reminded of Davison series 20. Okay, but nothing really remarkable. I am hoping that we have a bit more Doctor Who and bit less Eastenders next year. Also, more guest writers, Chibnall is ok, but would be better employed thinking up a proper series arc. Maybe he should work with the writing team devising a series twelve that makes everyone sit up and engage in Doctor Who again. Talking of Season 20 - I was thinking myself last evening how the current show would approach something like Enlightenment. Such stories were never the norm but for me at least they sparked my imagination, and that's one of the ways the show took hold for me. Tales such as Inferno, The War Games, the dramatic scope set the apart. Perhaps that's why I have not felt motivated to catch-up with the current crop of recent episodes. I do not doubt that many of you have thoroughly enjoyed them and I know they are perfectly decent drama. It's just for me something has to 'click' to get me watching. The new series has all the emotional depth the old series lacked - think of the superficiality in which the S19 crew shrug off the death of Adric within five minutes of Time Flight (Adric who?), but too much takes it out of the realm of escapism for me. I no longer bother with soaps and other modern drama's, so for Dr Who to move that way, does not appeal to me. Does not mean its bad. Just not for me. Same way I could never invest in ST: TNG - I preferred the more 2D brevity of ST: TOS for escapist thrills where i can fill in the back story in my head cannon if need be. Anyhow, I am in group 1 of the fans who are not into the current crop (as i have discussed in earlier posts). No real dislike and I will not down vote in the polls something I have yet to watch, and I don't accept that the episode was 's***e' as so called fans have said (people who invest their time doing Dr Who podcasts for goodness sake!). The critics in the papers were all thumbs up, so it hit the spot for many casual viewers too as well as open minded fans. But it cannot be ignored that the things that appeal to many as being unique to Doctor Who are a little diluted at present. It needs to avoid becoming more generic to my mind. After all, Tim Burton ensured that Batman with Michael Keaton was in now way comparable to Superman with Christopher Reeve. To myself now the current endless crop of Marvel CGI fests are all seemingly cast from the same template. But then again, that guarantees bums on seats, if not critical acclaim or enthusiasm from 'those who remember when'. That reminds me, still need to get the 60's Batman box set sometime soon. Classic, far superior to Christian Bale and Christopher Nolan's superficial take. Don't make them like that anymore, kids today don't know what they are missing, etc, etc....
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Post by doctorkernow on Jan 5, 2019 17:38:43 GMT
Hello again.
I agree daver that Enlightenment was the highlight of season 20. Although my sisters and I were rather beastly to Turlough though shouting, "Go on jump!" loudly at the screen. We were ten and under!
I understand that you prefer a more escapist approach to Doctor Who. However, even in season 20 you had Turlough's internal battle with the Black Guardian, Tegan having to lose her friend Nyssa and Nyssa deciding to use her scientific skills to do some good.
Doctor Who has always had this element of character development but not quite as heavy- handed as in series 11. Some of it works really well. Other times it is extremely clunky and is out of place.
A defter hand is needed. Character development is important in Doctor Who but the story must not be bogged down by it. Doctor Who is not a soap.
Doctor Who is a storytelling machine, a magic carpet ride. Anything is possible. How these adventures impact the Doctor and her crew is just one element of the enchanting mix that is our programme.
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Post by Jeedai on Jan 5, 2019 18:41:34 GMT
Well, we only got one of those so at least it didn't grate as much as Aaron hauling a microwave round. That may have worked better in Father's Day with Pete Tyler but a 2018 man seemingly quite taken by the power of a microwave....not so much. Wait till he discovers Video+, Sodastreams and a Breville toastie maker. His mind will be blown. There was some great work from Charlotte Ritchie as the Dalek's first victim and the Dalek's junkyard aesthetic was interesting. However, lugging a microwave everywhere did not make much sense. Also, there is no way, Ryan's Dad would have been able to hold on. Aaron's protectiveness of the microwave, and occasional attempts to up-sell its merits, worked for me because combined they spoke (to me) of his character. On a 'show don't tell' level that this season has done quite a bit of. I got the impression that this is a man who gets involved in a lot of get-rich-quick schemes, hawking a combination microwave/stove being the latest. Chasing pipe dreams like this could be part of the reason why he abandoned Ryan in the first place. He was likely very invested in that thing's success (financially and emotionally), and letting it be scrapped to stop the Dalek was part of his growth towards earning Ryan's forgiveness. But I think that forgiveness came too easily after all the bitterness Ryan's expressed over the past year. One a adventure and a couple taking-tos shouldn't have been enough. I suppose the question from here on is whether or not Aaron keeps getting swept up in similar inventions or investment opportunities, and that what troubles for Earth they could cause for Team Tardis to combat.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 5, 2019 19:12:49 GMT
My point really is that I think Mr Chibnall's stories did not engage me as much as those written by the guest writers. While not everyone will enjoy what season 12 brings, I think a different approach is needed. Perhaps having the series runner write half the season is mistake. Mr Chibnall should oversee the writers, maybe writing the opener and the finale. As a group the writers could work out a story arc or a theme for the season or just concentrate on producing a set of interesting and varied individual stories. I look forward to series twelve and seeing what happens. I feel this is a bit broad: as has been discussed, Chris taking up the first half is more just accident and bad luck with picking writers than a egomaniacal desire for control. If things had gone more to his original plan, not only would we have had an extra guest writer with Tim Price on whatever his Tsuranga would've been, but Chris would've actually only written 4 out of the 10 episodes (Woman, Ghost, Arachnids and Battle). A perfectly reasonable amount for a showrunner to do. And that's just the stuff we have learnt: what else are we not privy to yet? The downside to the American-style writersroom system that Chris employed is it doesn't really allow last minute replacements to be drafted in like under the much looser Moffat or RTD system. Once you're locked in, you're locked in with who you got. Blackman struggling with Rosa (which is understandable: it must've been a pain to write and, however you feel about Series 11, at least give Chris points for what must've been a headache to convince the BBC to greenlight) and then Price dropping out stretched Chris more than he likely originally expected. Maybe he thought Tsuranga would not've turned out that much better, given the time constraints and picking up where Price left off, under someone else so he'd take one for the team and just get it done.
As someone who is on 'that' side of the fence, it's about getting it done. Everyone wants to get it right, but time and money wait for no one.
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Post by pazzer on Jan 5, 2019 21:30:05 GMT
Could have done without the call center and family bits. But the rest was great. Not been this scared of a Dalek since way back in series one's Dalek. Loved how the Dalek creating it's casing mirrored the Doctor creating her sonic.
8/10
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 0:28:02 GMT
My point really is that I think Mr Chibnall's stories did not engage me as much as those written by the guest writers. While not everyone will enjoy what season 12 brings, I think a different approach is needed. Perhaps having the series runner write half the season is mistake. Mr Chibnall should oversee the writers, maybe writing the opener and the finale. As a group the writers could work out a story arc or a theme for the season or just concentrate on producing a set of interesting and varied individual stories. I look forward to series twelve and seeing what happens. I feel this is a bit broad: as has been discussed, Chris taking up the first half is more just accident and bad luck with picking writers than a egomaniacal desire for control. If things had gone more to his original plan, not only would we have had an extra guest writer with Tim Price on whatever his Tsuranga would've been, but Chris would've actually only written 4 out of the 10 episodes (Woman, Ghost, Arachnids and Battle). A perfectly reasonable amount for a showrunner to do. And that's just the stuff we have learnt: what else are we not privy to yet? The downside to the American-style writersroom system that Chris employed is it doesn't really allow last minute replacements to be drafted in like under the much looser Moffat or RTD system. Once you're locked in, you're locked in with who you got. Blackman struggling with Rosa (which is understandable: it must've been a pain to write and, however you feel about Series 11, at least give Chris points for what must've been a headache to convince the BBC to greenlight) and then Price dropping out stretched Chris more than he likely originally expected. Maybe he thought Tsuranga would not've turned out that much better, given the time constraints and picking up where Price left off, under someone else so he'd take one for the team and just get it done.
As someone who is on 'that' side of the fence, it's about getting it done. Everyone wants to get it right, but time and money wait for no one.
Yeah, ideally as an editor, you do only want/need to be writing the season's "hitching post" episodes. The first, the last and one or two somewhere in the middle. The idea being that these stories tie together the general focus of the season, whether it be an overarching story (in this case, Graham's grief and Ryan's feelings of abandonment), a prominent concept or a message. The rest can be given over to other writers on the team to play around with, but sometimes... Well, writing is a collaborative process and that means (particularly in production) the unexpected can unfortunately blow the best of intentions right out of the water.
The start of the Graham Williams era, for instance. It's a fair season, no real complaints to be had about it as a whole, but the production issues can be told like old war stories. For Fang Rock, the original vampire script had to be junked because of fears that it would be a parody of an upcoming Dracula adaptation. Dicks was able to come up with a replacement at short notice, but there was no room at the BBC Television Centre to film... So they went to Pebble Mill in Birmingham, which would require new equipment installed to meet the needs of the programme. In at least one instance, they stole cameras from an adjacent studio to get some of the shots they required.
That's not even getting into what happened with Underworld thanks to inflation (sets costing three times their original price) and The Invasion of Time's original script, Killers of the Dark, being way too ambitious to film (e.g. a colosseum of cat-people). Season 15's not one of my personal favourites, but it is a miracle that it turned up at all. A real credit to the inventiveness of the production team at the time.
Hopefully it all goes a bit smoother for next season. A production break did wonders for Series 10, so I'm optimistic this could work out for the best.
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Post by agentten on Jan 6, 2019 1:39:20 GMT
It took me a while to get round to seeing this because of visiting family, but I LOVE it. It was so cinematic and thrilling to watch and the Dalek felt really intimidating and dangerous. The effects team outdid themselves and this was shot and edited so well. The composition and energy that director Wayne Yip put together was wonderful to watch and this is perhaps the best the show has ever looked. The story felt fast paced, but at the same time, it lingered on the character moments. The long take of Ryan telling his father how he felt is a take that a less confident editor would keep cutting back and forth from, but it was allowed to play out beautifully in a long take that really let the actor bring a lot to the moment. I also loved how The Doctor called out Ryan's dad the moment she met him. Thirteen is an interesting mix. She's fun and daft like a puppy in a new place most of the time, but when she sees someone hurt, she steps up to the pitch and starts swinging.
I'm also super anxious about the fate of UNIT! UNIT being shut down should be an interesting new situation to find them in when the show picks up that story thread again. I've really wanted Chibnall to keep using Kate Stewart, Osgood, and UNIT so I was heartened to see a good amount of screen time devoted to explaining their absence. If he simply didn't want to use them, it seems unlikely he would spend that much screen time talking about them.
I am really enthusiastic about this episode. It was so much fun to watch. The pathos of the relationships mixed with the danger of the Dalek threat made for a fully realized episode that worked on every level for me.
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Post by eric009 on Jan 6, 2019 2:09:13 GMT
the getting rid of UNIT to me that bad as blow up Skaro in Remembrance of the Daleks (something that Terry Nation was not too pleased about)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 2:20:01 GMT
the getting rid of UNIT to me that bad as blow up Skaro in Remembrance of the Daleks (something that Terry Nation was not too pleased about) Didnt it say its just “under review” due to budget problems? If so thats a lot easier to bring back than...well than blowing up a whole planet (altho in the end they brough back Skaro anyway so i guess that was easy enough to bring back in their minds as well )
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Post by agentten on Jan 6, 2019 5:49:33 GMT
To me, Kate and Osgood seem like they wouldn't stop trying to find a way to do what they do, even if their funding was cut. I could see them going underground a bit and working from the shadows. Low on funds but big on ideas and motivation.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 6, 2019 8:49:18 GMT
Hello again. The vitriolic, hate-filled, gleeful demolition of series 11 is a mystery to me. It has almost turned into a cottage industry on YouTube. The series was okay. I enjoyed the historical stories, nice to see them back. Jodie's Doctor is good. My favourite scene is still her discussion with James I. Her TARDIS crew are fine but poor Yaz is usually underused. This episode typifies the problem I have with Chibnall's stories. I find them ok,but not engaging. Resolution was a straightforward homage to Dalek with a dash of Ryan grappling with his family thrown in. Now, I enjoyed RTD's approach to the domestic because it slotted into Who as a humourous backdrop. However, when the cafe scene appeared it killed the story stone dead. It wouldn't have been out of place on Eastenders. There was some great work from Charlotte Ritchie as the Dalek's first victim and the Dalek's junkyard aesthetic was interesting. However, lugging a microwave everywhere did not make much sense. Also, there is no way, Ryan's Dad would have been able to hold on. Ohh, I wanted to like this and the rest of the series so much. Unfortunately, for me I was reminded of Davison series 20. Okay, but nothing really remarkable. I am hoping that we have a bit more Doctor Who and bit less Eastenders next year. Also, more guest writers, Chibnall is ok, but would be better employed thinking up a proper series arc. Maybe he should work with the writing team devising a series twelve that makes everyone sit up and engage in Doctor Who again. Everytime i go on you tube there's another toxic blog about Jodie or the series it's utterly ridiculous, i commented on a few but the hate fuelled replies i received i just deleted them, don't need sad pathetic hate fuelled trolls in my life.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jan 6, 2019 9:07:06 GMT
Aaron hauling a microwave round. That may have worked better in Father's Day with Pete Tyler but a 2018 man seemingly quite taken by the power of a microwave....not so much. Wait till he discovers Video+, Sodastreams and a Breville toastie maker. His mind will be blown. Yes, I'm wondering whether Chris Chibnall is actually a time traveller, because the "nothing-to-do-on-a-bank-holiday" joke is... what, twenty years out of date? Nowdays there are *shops* actually open and everything.
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Post by eric009 on Jan 6, 2019 19:59:49 GMT
youtube toxic blog is something that should just be put in a black hole. All I care about is I watched it and liked it for the most
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 7, 2019 13:26:43 GMT
To me, Kate and Osgood seem like they wouldn't stop trying to find a way to do what they do, even if their funding was cut. I could see them going underground a bit and working from the shadows. Low on funds but big on ideas and motivation. Thats how i pictured it actually. She puts together a small band of people and Zygons from UNIT she can really trust (BF Cast for example) and does the UK Branch really underground while the Main rest of the world UNIT does as they always have
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Post by number13 on Jan 7, 2019 23:26:05 GMT
To me, Kate and Osgood seem like they wouldn't stop trying to find a way to do what they do, even if their funding was cut. I could see them going underground a bit and working from the shadows. Low on funds but big on ideas and motivation. Thats how i pictured it actually. She puts together a small band of people and Zygons from UNIT she can really trust (BF Cast for example) and does the UK Branch really underground while the Main rest of the world UNIT does as they always have Sounds like a BF boxset (or several) waiting to happen!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 6:16:59 GMT
To me, Kate and Osgood seem like they wouldn't stop trying to find a way to do what they do, even if their funding was cut. I could see them going underground a bit and working from the shadows. Low on funds but big on ideas and motivation. Thats how i pictured it actually. She puts together a small band of people and Zygons from UNIT she can really trust (BF Cast for example) and does the UK Branch really underground while the Main rest of the world UNIT does as they always have Well, hey, we've never properly explored the Silurian shelter beneath London, the one that housed Vastra and got tapped by those subway workers. If they want underground...
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 8, 2019 9:11:17 GMT
Rewatched it and holds up fine, bit miffed not included in the box set but I've already pre-ordered it.
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