Stevo
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 5,908
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Post by Stevo on Nov 14, 2017 0:02:32 GMT
Grittiness? Yeah, well, they would have a very hard time creating a sense of danger if bad things didn't or even couldn't happen, or if they do happen, only happen to red shirts..... There are plenty of episodes with torture, death, etc., so I don't really see the beating/attempted rape as somehow fundamentally off-limits. I was actually more horrified by the treatment Bernice Summerfield got at the hands of the Nazi's when I first read the Virgin NA novel Just War, than anything I heard in Nekromanteia... and when I say horrified, I mean I really was horrified and shocked at the brutality of the torture described on those pages. It wasn't something I expected from a Doctor Who novel in the mid 90's at all... so yeah, I think to create a sense of danger to the TARDIS team sometimes bad things need to happen.
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Post by omega on Nov 14, 2017 0:05:30 GMT
Grittiness? Yeah, well, they would have a very hard time creating a sense of danger if bad things didn't or even couldn't happen, or if they do happen, only happen to red shirts..... There are plenty of episodes with torture, death, etc., so I don't really see the beating/attempted rape as somehow fundamentally off-limits. I was actually more horrified by the treatment Bernice Summerfield got at the hands of the Nazi's when I first read the Virgin NA novel Just War, than anything I heard in Nekromanteia... and when I say horrified, I mean I really was horrified and shocked at the brutality of the torture described on those pages. It wasn't something I expected from a Doctor Who novel in the mid 90's at all... so yeah, I think to create a sense of danger to the TARDIS team sometimes bad things need to happen. Protect and Survive is like that with Ace and Hex. Ditto The Settling for Hex. Historic stories are prime for this, as we know such brutality actually happened.
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Post by iainmclaughlin on Nov 14, 2017 0:18:05 GMT
I was actually more horrified by the treatment Bernice Summerfield got at the hands of the Nazi's when I first read the Virgin NA novel Just War, than anything I heard in Nekromanteia... and when I say horrified, I mean I really was horrified and shocked at the brutality of the torture described on those pages. It wasn't something I expected from a Doctor Who novel in the mid 90's at all... so yeah, I think to create a sense of danger to the TARDIS team sometimes bad things need to happen. Protect and Survive is like that with Ace and Hex. Ditto The Settling for Hex. Historic stories are prime for this, as we know such brutality actually happened. The unfortunate truth is that reality tends to be considerably more horrific than anything any writer can come up with.
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Post by omega on Nov 14, 2017 0:39:19 GMT
Protect and Survive is like that with Ace and Hex. Ditto The Settling for Hex. Historic stories are prime for this, as we know such brutality actually happened. The unfortunate truth is that reality tends to be considerably more horrific than anything any writer can come up with. It could be because we know it happened, and doesn't have the science fiction filter to muffle the impact.
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Post by rran on Nov 14, 2017 15:35:21 GMT
I finished this today. Let me start with the positives - The concept and the story wasn’t too bad, even probably interesting.. but that’s just it. The only plus that I could find. The end result was that it gave me a headache. All the screaming and screeching got on my nerves. Overdone in my opinion. I can’t stand too much of noise and hence the headache. And the way Erimem was treated - again overboard. I don’t tolerate stories with crime against women or for that matter any violence beyond a certain limit. A decent plot with a messy execution. Now i’m listening to Caerdroia to recover from it 
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Post by rran on Nov 14, 2017 15:56:30 GMT
It's only going to cost you $2.99 and a couple of hours of your time. It's got redeeming qualities. Nekromanteia is definitely worth buying @2.99. (Every Doctor Who main range title is worth a go @2.99!) I think people get a bit carried away with the minuses of this story and ignore the pluses. I don't think Nekromanteia is half as bad as people make out. Sure, it's dark and grittty in places but we don't want Doctor Who to always be cute fluffy bunnies do we? (Of course, I did read most the Virgin NA's as they came out, so was probably used to more adult elements in Doctor Who when this was released.) I thought the first two parts of Nekromanteia were very good at setting up the story and it even had a Caves of Androzani vibe early on, the plot did go a bit awry later on and had too many threads which was a bit confusing, and yes the witches cackling was very annoying too, very very in fact! So Nekromanteia is not a perfect story by any means, it's not the worst main range story out there either, as there are some interesting elements to this story. ... and at least Antranak isn't going to sit on the TARDIS console anymore! After sitting through this one, I was actually impressed with the ending 
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2017 18:11:40 GMT
This was released in February 2003, not 2017.
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Post by omega on Nov 14, 2017 18:26:41 GMT
This was released in February 2003, not 2017. Blame reflex for that.
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Post by elkawho on Nov 15, 2017 18:22:25 GMT
So I listened to it and guess what? I was actually bored!! I thought I would have a lot of different responses to this one, but I just thought it was a bad story and it bored me. It felt like the author was using the violence to try an make it interesting because he had no idea how else to do it. It didn't work.
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Post by number13 on Nov 15, 2017 23:12:07 GMT
After reading the thoughtful posts on this thread, with good arguments both ways, and after very careful consideration (I have the usual dislike of leaving gaps in any range), I've decided this one isn't for me. The good news is that the whole £2.99 saved will no doubt turn into three BF 99p bargains any time from this Friday up to Christmas...  with 2p to spare... 
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Nov 15, 2017 23:26:23 GMT
While not the worst Big Finish Doctor Who story I can think of, it's certainly in the bottom 5%
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Post by newt5996 on Nov 15, 2017 23:53:33 GMT
Horrible audio drama, that pushes the boundaries of violence on women too far. I'd say it just horribly does a storyline with sexual assault and it could have worked if either there was establishment that Erimem fought off the attacker or she didn't and we dealt with the differing repercussions of both.
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Post by rran on Nov 16, 2017 3:51:20 GMT
After reading the thoughtful posts on this thread, with good arguments both ways, and after very careful consideration (I have the usual dislike of leaving gaps in any range), I've decided this one isn't for me. The good news is that the whole £2.99 saved will no doubt turn into three BF 99p bargains any time from this Friday up to Christmas...  with 2p to spare...  Go for it if you have a high tolerance threshold for - 1. Noise. Loads of it - screeching 2. Violence and sexual abuse - a lot of it was unnecessary 3. Story going no-where after a point. To give due credit, the concept was interesting and the last 5 minutes were the most bearable part of the entire duration. (Reviewing this story feels like doing a performance review of grossly under-performing team members where you need to dig out their positives and project them before discussing points of improvement  )
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Post by Whovitt on Nov 16, 2017 6:18:04 GMT
After reading the thoughtful posts on this thread, with good arguments both ways, and after very careful consideration (I have the usual dislike of leaving gaps in any range), I've decided this one isn't for me. The good news is that the whole £2.99 saved will no doubt turn into three BF 99p bargains any time from this Friday up to Christmas...  with 2p to spare...  Go for it if you have a high tolerance threshold for - 1. Noise. Loads of it - screeching 2. Violence and sexual abuse - a lot of it was unnecessary 3. Story going no-where after a point. To give due credit, the concept was interesting and the last 5 minutes were the most bearable part of the entire duration. ( Reviewing this story feels like doing a performance review of grossly under-performing team members where you need to dig out their positives and project them before discussing points of improvement  ) I hate having to do that sort of thing  I had to do a similar thing for a group assignment this semester, evaluating each team members' input and demonstration of the knowledge required to finish the task. I felt terrible giving out some of the numbers I did, but having had to write 1000 of the 2500 words myself (in a five person group, so I should have only had to have written 500) and editing the whole thing, it's hard to give other people the review that you'd like to
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Post by rran on Nov 16, 2017 6:34:33 GMT
Go for it if you have a high tolerance threshold for - 1. Noise. Loads of it - screeching 2. Violence and sexual abuse - a lot of it was unnecessary 3. Story going no-where after a point. To give due credit, the concept was interesting and the last 5 minutes were the most bearable part of the entire duration. ( Reviewing this story feels like doing a performance review of grossly under-performing team members where you need to dig out their positives and project them before discussing points of improvement  ) I hate having to do that sort of thing  I had to do a similar thing for a group assignment this semester, evaluating each team members' input and demonstration of the knowledge required to finish the task. I felt terrible giving out some of the numbers I did, but having had to write 1000 of the 2500 words myself (in a five person group, so I should have only had to have written 500) and editing the whole thing, it's hard to give other people the review that you'd like to Such things are emotionally conflicting  When you are their boss and you have to choose among your team for ratings and increments. That calls for difficult decisions at times 
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Post by Whovitt on Nov 16, 2017 7:41:53 GMT
I hate having to do that sort of thing  I had to do a similar thing for a group assignment this semester, evaluating each team members' input and demonstration of the knowledge required to finish the task. I felt terrible giving out some of the numbers I did, but having had to write 1000 of the 2500 words myself (in a five person group, so I should have only had to have written 500) and editing the whole thing, it's hard to give other people the review that you'd like to Such things are emotionally conflicting  When you are their boss and you have to choose among your team for ratings and increments. That calls for difficult decisions at times  Ah... I'm not sure how well I'd do in that situation  There would need to be a certain level of emotional detachment and pure professionalism, and that's a line I can sometimes find hard to distinguish.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2017 10:36:08 GMT
Nekromanteia definitely feels like a story that could've used a rewrite. Grimdark pretty much sums it up. It's got an interesting central concept: undead witches worshipping the skeleton of a long-preserved physicist, but it's got its problems. The Fifth Doctor is almost optimistic to a fault, but I have a hard time believing that he'd be naive enough -- particularly in this part of his life -- to walk straight into a decapitation without any kind of backup plan. An effective cliffhanger, but we could've gotten there without the idiot ball. Peri's characterisation seems to take a few steps backward from Eye and Crown. Unfortunately, she's much closer to her more ineffectual television counterpart than what she grew into on audio. Erimem's assault lacks any sort of catharsis, it's not used to explore her character in any way, but just as a moment of shock horror. I think it falls into a very common trap that turns up in fiction where dark subject matter automatically equals good storytelling. "Dark" in this case being unpleasant characters in gritty scenarios. Just War works as well as it does because we like Benny and we care about what happens to her. Same is true of something like Watchmen, which uses its grimmer environs to deconstruct the whole concept of superheroes. Nekromanteia, on the other hand, just seems to be about meanspiritedness. It doesn't really have a focal point for all its dark moments and it suffers quite heavily because of it. It lacks the likable cast, the pathos, the clever critique, it's just nasty for the sake of nastiness. I'm honestly very curious about the kind of story -- good story -- that could theoretically be salvaged from it.
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Post by mrperson on Nov 16, 2017 17:46:23 GMT
Nekromanteia definitely feels like a story that could've used a rewrite. Grimdark pretty much sums it up. It's got an interesting central concept: undead witches worshipping the skeleton of a long-preserved physicist, but it's got its problems. The Fifth Doctor is almost optimistic to a fault, but I have a hard time believing that he'd be naive enough -- particularly in this part of his life -- to walk straight into a decapitation without any kind of backup plan. An effective cliffhanger, but we could've gotten there without the idiot ball. Peri's characterisation seems to take a few steps backward from Eye and Crown. Unfortunately, she's much closer to her more ineffectual television counterpart than what she grew into on audio. Erimem's assault lacks any sort of catharsis, it's not used to explore her character in any way, but just as a moment of shock horror. I think it falls into a very common trap that turns up in fiction where dark subject matter automatically equals good storytelling. "Dark" in this case being unpleasant characters in gritty scenarios. Just War works as well as it does because we like Benny and we care about what happens to her. Same is true of something like Watchmen, which uses its grimmer environs to deconstruct the whole concept of superheroes. Nekromanteia, on the other hand, just seems to be about meanspiritedness. It doesn't really have a focal point for all its dark moments and it suffers quite heavily because of it. It lacks the likable cast, the pathos, the clever critique, it's just nasty for the sake of nastiness. I'm honestly very curious about the kind of story -- good story -- that could theoretically be salvaged from it. To be fair though, the 5th Doctor did have his moments where he's just sort of standing there defying someone.....by just sort of standing there and saying "that's bad. Stop doing that." In fact, I remember a rather funny line from one of the BF releases where he says "Y... yes. I defy you. I stand here, and I defy you" and, basically, circumstance ends up providing the solution or escape; he had nothing. I can't place the line.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2017 2:06:00 GMT
Nekromanteia definitely feels like a story that could've used a rewrite. Grimdark pretty much sums it up. It's got an interesting central concept: undead witches worshipping the skeleton of a long-preserved physicist, but it's got its problems. The Fifth Doctor is almost optimistic to a fault, but I have a hard time believing that he'd be naive enough -- particularly in this part of his life -- to walk straight into a decapitation without any kind of backup plan. An effective cliffhanger, but we could've gotten there without the idiot ball. Peri's characterisation seems to take a few steps backward from Eye and Crown. Unfortunately, she's much closer to her more ineffectual television counterpart than what she grew into on audio. Erimem's assault lacks any sort of catharsis, it's not used to explore her character in any way, but just as a moment of shock horror. I think it falls into a very common trap that turns up in fiction where dark subject matter automatically equals good storytelling. "Dark" in this case being unpleasant characters in gritty scenarios. Just War works as well as it does because we like Benny and we care about what happens to her. Same is true of something like Watchmen, which uses its grimmer environs to deconstruct the whole concept of superheroes. Nekromanteia, on the other hand, just seems to be about meanspiritedness. It doesn't really have a focal point for all its dark moments and it suffers quite heavily because of it. It lacks the likable cast, the pathos, the clever critique, it's just nasty for the sake of nastiness. I'm honestly very curious about the kind of story -- good story -- that could theoretically be salvaged from it. To be fair though, the 5th Doctor did have his moments where he's just sort of standing there defying someone.....by just sort of standing there and saying "that's bad. Stop doing that." In fact, I remember a rather funny line from one of the BF releases where he says "Y... yes. I defy you. I stand here, and I defy you" and, basically, circumstance ends up providing the solution or escape; he had nothing. I can't place the line. Ohh, it rings a bell, but... Yeah, I can't place it either. Yeah, I think it's probably one of the Fifth Doctor's most enduring traits outside of being the determinator. He's a defiant idealist, probably the most idealistic of all the Doctors (possibly beaten by Eight). He's got this inherent moral "goodness" that blinds him to more dubious means of gaining the advantage, mainly I think because they just don't occur to him. Resurrection of the Daleks is a bit of a watershed moment in that regard. I don't think he's a coward as Davros claims, but his assessment that the Doctor "denies what is real" when he refutes war as a universal truth really seems to get to him. I think he worries sometimes that his idealism gets in the way of saving lives. That maybe he trusts too easily. But then, if The Caves of Androzani is anything to go by, that idealism is probably his most endearing trait as well. In Enlightenment, he doesn't badger or try to convince Turlough of his way. He simply lets him make the choice, confident in the capacity for good in others and that's ultimately how you make more of it. Kindness begetting kindness and so forth. Maybe he takes that risk because of its potential rewards and if he does get a spear through the chest, well, it's more energy devoted towards him rather than the people he's trying to protect. He puts himself first -- straight into the line of fire -- hoping that reason will win out against brute violence.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Nov 17, 2017 2:44:13 GMT
I think that is as good a summation of the 5th Doctor as I have read.
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