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Post by omega on Jul 1, 2016 11:31:41 GMT
Both the Classic and the New Series each have their own good and bad points. If I'm in the mood for something the Classic series does well, I'll watch something from that. If I want to watch something the New Series is strong in, I'll pick an episode from there.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jul 1, 2016 12:17:40 GMT
Okay, no. Much as I love NuWho (and believe me I freaking do for the most part), I think the only writer who has provided great material consistently enough in NuWho is Mathieson. All the rest, much as I may love som of their stories, have (IMO) more weak apps in their Who résumés. And besides, Bob Holmes is Bob Holmes. For my money the best TV writer ever (unless we divide Moffat into two Eras, one up to and including S5 and one after that). Steven Moffat, Mark Gattis, Paul Cornell, Robert Shearman, Toby Whithouse, Russell T Davies, Sarah Dollard... Steven Moffat is the best TV writer ever not Bob Holmes IMO. Steven Moffat can't hold a candle to Robert Holmes who in my opinion wrote some of the shows best stories, give me a Holmes penned story over Moffats inconsistent arcs & lame storytelling anyday & that includes The Space Pirates. Moffat is a overrated writer he couldn't even write a good conclusion to this year's finale & Husband Of River Song was overacted pantomine although i will say i did enjoy Last Christmas & Moffats Empty Child/Doctor Dances, Blink, everything else is i think very hit & miss. Still you like what you like & if you enjoy Moffats story's great, there's plenty of story's by different writers to go around.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jul 1, 2016 12:20:11 GMT
Capaldi is a great Doctor who's just happened to have had some terrible scripts thrown his way & silly supporting characters. I'd love to have seen Capaldis Doctor in a Robert Holmes penned story now that would have been something special. I think he'd slip rather comfortably into The Sun Makers, but I'd love to see him in something like Pyramids of Mars. Got to love an omnicidal maniac that was within a hair's breadth of conquering the universe from the heart of his personal prison. I can just see his eyes blaze straight through Clara when they stumble upon Lawrence's body. He died pleading for his brother's life, murdered by the thing that had destroyed the intellect and will of Marcus Scarman. CLARA: "Oh, sometimes you don't seem--" TWELVE: "Human? Typical Osirian simplicity." CLARA "A man has just been murdered." TWELVE: " Four men, Clara. Five, if you include Professor Scarman himself and may be the first of millions unless Sutekh is stopped. Know thine enemy. Admirable advice." I want Capaldi vs Sutekh now your post has intrigued me lol. Any lost Robert Holmes scripts available?
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Post by icecreamdf on Jul 1, 2016 15:03:22 GMT
I don't know where all the hype for Robert Holmes comes from. He wrote a few really good episodes, a few pretty bad episodes, and a bunch of average episodes.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 1, 2016 15:19:03 GMT
I don't know where all the hype for Robert Holmes comes from. He wrote a few really good episodes, a few pretty bad episodes, and a bunch of average episodes. And, still better than Moffat.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jul 1, 2016 15:36:30 GMT
I don't know where all the hype for Robert Holmes comes from. He wrote a few really good episodes, a few pretty bad episodes, and a bunch of average episodes. And, still better than Moffat. Not really. Moffat's written a ton of really good episodes, maybe one or two bad ones, and a few average ones. His worst episodes were still better than The Krotons or The Space Pirates.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 1, 2016 15:41:31 GMT
And, still better than Moffat. Not really. Moffat's written a ton of really good episodes, maybe one or two bad ones, and a few average ones. His worst episodes were still better than The Krotons or The Space Pirates. LETS KILL HITLER.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jul 1, 2016 15:47:06 GMT
Not really. Moffat's written a ton of really good episodes, maybe one or two bad ones, and a few average ones. His worst episodes were still better than The Krotons or The Space Pirates. LETS KILL HITLER. That was fine. It certainly wasn't a classic, but it had its moments. The only Moffat stories I really don't like are The Beast Below and The Doctor, The Widow and The Wardrobe.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 1, 2016 17:34:43 GMT
I haven't had much in the way of hope for New Who ever since the season 6 arc went off the rails half-way through (and given what was done with/to River's character). Apart from a few stand-out episodes in each of seasons 7, 8, and 9, I simply have not liked what Moffat thinks Who should be. Sooo.....whatever. I'm going to watch S10, but I'm struggling to find the enthusiasm. Big Finish produces the real Who these days. Anyway, I don't even remember who this character was in Husbands, but then, watching that episode gave me indigestion so I had trouble paying complete attention. It's probably for the best, judging by everyone else's reaction to the idea that the character will return... FWIW he balanced the snarky old sod with the witty wanderer rather well - not as acidic as season 8, not as intentionally quirky as season 9. It's the acidic I likedIt might not be pleasant if every incarnation was like that, but it's been a while since we had that. One possible point of clarification: when I said "I don't even remember who this character was in Husbands", I meant to refer to the subject of this thread - whichever character Matt Lucas played. I recognize the face but don't recall what his role was, nor do I have any intention of rewatching Husbands.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,849
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Post by aztec on Jul 1, 2016 17:38:56 GMT
"Idiot in a box" is preferable to "basically Space Jesus" and more in line with Classic Who than many people really care to admit, in my opinion. Are we forgetting that it took basically SIX regenerations (and who knows how many hundreds of years!) just to be able to reliably pilot the TARDIS? To me, the show is at its best when the Doctor is more fallible and not as all-knowing. Certainly he's wise and really intelligent, but I think he should always be a bit of an idiot. That's largely my problem with New Who - it's tendency to make the Doctor some sort of "god." I hated it when RTD did it with the Tenth Doctor and I don't like it when Moffat sometimes descends to that same level. Exactly the point I was making, that's another reason why I like Capaldi more than the new who doctors, despite his snarky outside and blunt way of talking in many ways he comes across as more fallible and lonely (see his 'You look at me and you don't see me' speech in Deep Breath and his reckless attempt to save Clara from the timelords etc) than 9-11 did i.m.o.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 1, 2016 17:42:07 GMT
"Idiot in a box" is preferable to "basically Space Jesus" and more in line with Classic Who than many people really care to admit, in my opinion. Are we forgetting that it took basically SIX regenerations (and who knows how many hundreds of years!) just to be able to reliably pilot the TARDIS? To me, the show is at its best when the Doctor is more fallible and not as all-knowing. Certainly he's wise and really intelligent, but I think he should always be a bit of an idiot. That's largely my problem with New Who - it's tendency to make the Doctor some sort of "god." I hated it when RTD did it with the Tenth Doctor and I don't like it when Moffat sometimes descends to that same level. Well, to be fair, they are supposed to have six pilots handling the controls and calculations (not that that was a "thing" until the reboot). Plus, it was a clunky old antique when he stole it. It may also have been that his repairs and additions are what finally got the thing flying in a relatively predictable manner. (But yeah, the "Space Jesus" / "Lonely God" stuff annoyed me. Still, I have a bigger gripe with Moffat's vision than I did RTD's. Ah well, it will be moot soon enough, and hopefully for the better)
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,849
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Post by aztec on Jul 1, 2016 17:46:37 GMT
As for Classic Who vs New Who, I've only seen about half the former, but I think even the Classic greats- e.g. Holmes and Dicks were far better at plot and atmosphere than they were at characterization or pacing, Moffat and RTD are by no means flawless writers, and their clunkers are amongst the very worst Who ever filmed, but on a good day neither can be matched, personally I found the majority of Classic companions to be fairly generic and interchangeable (though BF has certainly rectified that somewhat), though I'm more split on my opinions on the actual stories-I'll take the experimental Heaven Sent, Midnight or Blink over The Web Planet any day (I respect the imagination and scope of that particular serial, but by god that was an overlong confused mess i.m.o...), though The War Games is still i.m.o the best regeneration story so far, and my favourite Televised Who story....
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 1, 2016 19:27:15 GMT
As for Classic Who vs New Who, I've only seen about half the former, but I think even the Classic greats- e.g. Holmes and Dicks were far better at plot and atmosphere than they were at characterization or pacing, Moffat and RTD are by no means flawless writers, and their clunkers are amongst the very worst Who ever filmed, but on a good day neither can be matched, personally I found the majority of Classic companions to be fairly generic and interchangeable (though BF has certainly rectified that somewhat), though I'm more split on my opinions on the actual stories-I'll take the experimental Heaven Sent, Midnight or Blink over The Web Planet any day (I respect the imagination and scope of that particular serial, but by god that was an overlong confused mess i.m.o...), though The War Games is still i.m.o the best regeneration story so far, and my favourite Televised Who story.... NuWho companions are all fairly generic and interchangeable - they are all special.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jul 1, 2016 19:33:44 GMT
As for Classic Who vs New Who, I've only seen about half the former, but I think even the Classic greats- e.g. Holmes and Dicks were far better at plot and atmosphere than they were at characterization or pacing, Moffat and RTD are by no means flawless writers, and their clunkers are amongst the very worst Who ever filmed, but on a good day neither can be matched, personally I found the majority of Classic companions to be fairly generic and interchangeable (though BF has certainly rectified that somewhat), though I'm more split on my opinions on the actual stories-I'll take the experimental Heaven Sent, Midnight or Blink over The Web Planet any day (I respect the imagination and scope of that particular serial, but by god that was an overlong confused mess i.m.o...), though The War Games is still i.m.o the best regeneration story so far, and my favourite Televised Who story.... - they are all special. Which, by definition, means they are all unique.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 1, 2016 19:36:28 GMT
Which, by definition, means they are all unique. Well, no. Think of it this way: if everybody dressed like an ultra-hipster, then what used to be ultra-hipster dress would be the new normal dress, and not at all "unique". It would still be painful to look at, true, but not unique. Similarly, if all Doctors were forced to interpret the role in exactly the same way, well, they wouldn't be unique any more.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 1, 2016 19:36:56 GMT
Which, by definition, means they are all unique. Not really, No. You could interchange Amy with Clara, no problem. EDIT - And, every NuWho companion has been from the present.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2016 23:07:41 GMT
I adore the classic series to utter pieces, but I'm willing to admit that it has an unfair advantage in terms of its running time. The New Series has done pseudo-serials in the form of stories like "Turn Left" / "The Stolen Earth" / "Journey's End" and "Utopia" / "The Sound of Drums" / "The Last of the Time Lords" that echo the same structure of stories like The Seeds of Doom or The Two Doctors, but more often than not they're relegated to forty-five minute chunks closer to a classic episode of Thunderbirds than a Quatermass miniseries. What some writers have been able to do in that time is nothing short of miraculous, Russell T. Davies has had me on the edge of my seat time and again during his run and Richard Curtis had me in tears by the end of "Vincent and the Doctor", but the length and breadth of characterisation, plotting and atmosphere that you can generate over the course of a serial like Marco Polo, The Power of the Daleks, The Mind of Evil, Genesis of the Daleks or Battlefield just leaves its former in the dust. Not for the want or lack of trying, mind you. That's the thing I love about British television, there's always this great deal of care put into its supporting cast.
Contrasting the two seems like comparing hadrons to calcite to me. It's why I don't like saying they're the same series because from a formatting standpoint, well... They're not. Different times and therefore different rules. It's why the last season of NuWho was so divisive amongst those I know who loved just the new series or had seen both the new and old, it was attempting to bring back the traditional four-parter without ascribing to many of its crucial time-honoured principles. The reverse can be seen as well with the Fourth Doctor Adventures's two-part approach to storytelling forcing some very uneven storylines.
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