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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jan 2, 2017 11:39:37 GMT
I disagree, the Doctor and Nardole made complete sense in this episode to me. The Doctor was clearly upset from his last meeting with River and needed a distraction, hence why he reassembled Nardole and embarked on another adventure. I didn't say they didn't make sense. I said they felt like an afterthought in this episode. I understand why the Doctor was there but they didn't seem important to the grand scheme of the episode besides the Doctor's relationship with Grant which was not the focus of this episode. It didn't seem like an afterthought to me, although obviously it was given Moffat said Nardole was originally only in some episodes of Series 10. He decided afterwards to write him into the Christmas Special.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 11:48:48 GMT
It was nicely like the classic series in that regard, the Doctor and his companion dropping in on someone else's life which has been puttering along without his interference. That was refreshing, but on the flip side it does feel a bit too much like he's a passenger in this story. I'm reminded of Kinda in that regard. It's a great story but what does the Doctor do that couldn't have been accomplished by someone else? At least he's not doing The Zygon Invasion thing where he basically stood around in the background reacting to things. I appreciated that he was given stuff to do here. The Doctor and the TARDIS crew are pretty fundamental in Kinda. They cause the whole story in the first place as well as providing the solution. True, we wouldn't have Kinda without Tegan's involvement, but compare the Doctor's actions (and the Doctor exclusively) there to a story like Revelation of the Daleks. In both stories, he is simultaneously instigator and decider but he does very little in between to actually drive the plot forward. Orcini would have been able to detonate the bomb without his interference and given time, Todd would have made the connection with the mirrors on her own. It was her after all who resolved the problem with Hindle. If you contrast Kinda and Snakedance, he seems a lot more proactive in the latter than he does the former. Storywise, it's the difference between the Doctor acting vs. reacting to/against events. After all, we wouldn't have The Return of Doctor Mysterio if not for the Doctor's interference either.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 12:33:06 GMT
The Doctor and the TARDIS crew are pretty fundamental in Kinda. They cause the whole story in the first place as well as providing the solution. True, we wouldn't have Kinda without Tegan's involvement, but compare the Doctor's actions (and the Doctor exclusively) there to a story like Revelation of the Daleks. In both stories, he is simultaneously instigator and decider but he does very little in between to actually drive the plot forward. Orcini would have been able to detonate the bomb without his interference and given time, Todd would have made the connection with the mirrors on her own. It was her after all who resolved the problem with Hindle. If you contrast Kinda and Snakedance, he seems a lot more proactive in the latter than he does the former. Storywise, it's the difference between the Doctor acting vs. reacting to/against events. After all, we wouldn't have The Return of Doctor Mysterio if not for the Doctor's interference either. Revelation is a much better example of an afterthought Doctor. It's reaching to say Todd would have solved everything on her own in Kinda. Doctor Mysterio is interesting. The Doctor in the modern day is almost irrelevant because of what he did in the past. In the VNA's the Doctor would have done those the other way round, retrospectively creating the Ghost to get him out of a sticky situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 13:08:42 GMT
True, we wouldn't have Kinda without Tegan's involvement, but compare the Doctor's actions (and the Doctor exclusively) there to a story like Revelation of the Daleks. In both stories, he is simultaneously instigator and decider but he does very little in between to actually drive the plot forward. Orcini would have been able to detonate the bomb without his interference and given time, Todd would have made the connection with the mirrors on her own. It was her after all who resolved the problem with Hindle. If you contrast Kinda and Snakedance, he seems a lot more proactive in the latter than he does the former. Storywise, it's the difference between the Doctor acting vs. reacting to/against events. After all, we wouldn't have The Return of Doctor Mysterio if not for the Doctor's interference either. Revelation is a much better example of an afterthought Doctor. It's reaching to say Todd would have solved everything on her own in Kinda. Doctor Mysterio is interesting. The Doctor in the modern day is almost irrelevant because of what he did in the past. In the VNA's the Doctor would have done those the other way round, retrospectively creating the Ghost to get him out of a sticky situation. Yeah, you've got a point there. I'll have to go back and rewatch Kinda at some stage. Mmm, a much more VNA solution would have been what essentially happened in Warhead with Vincent. Grant's dose could still have been accidental, but the NA!Doctor would probably have later sought him out deliberately for the purposes of wiping out Winter Harmony. He's not very good at that whole mercy thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 14:32:57 GMT
Just caught up with this, pretty awful all round. & what was the point of Nardole being in it at all?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 16:28:23 GMT
Just caught up with this, pretty awful all round. & what was the point of Nardole being in it at all? To help establish the character for Season 10 presumably. And to give the Doctor someone to talk to in scenes without the two humans.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 18:08:47 GMT
Loved this story, to be honest.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 18:10:51 GMT
Loved this story, to be honest. I'm glad you liked it, I know you have been critical of who as of now, but if you enjoy it, that's great.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 18:38:19 GMT
Loved this story, to be honest. I'm glad you liked it, I know you have been critical of who as of now, but if you enjoy it, that's great. I know I am critical, but I don't just say things are bad to make a point. If something is good or all right I'll say it is. If it's bad I'll say so too. I mean, in terms of Series 9, here's how it goes for me, in case anyone was interesting: The Magician's Apprentice/Witch's Familiar - 8.5/10. Very much enjoyed, but still don't think Missy is the Master. I think she's a bit too different, considering all other incarnations. Under The Lake/Before The Flood - 6/10. It's quite well written. The acting's very good. But it's still a shameful rip-off of Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, right down to the minute. Literally. The Girl Who Died - 4/10. Not paricualrly good. The Woman Who Lived - 3.5/10. A good idea, but handled not very well. The Zygon Invasion/Inversion - 5/10. It's a very fun adventure, but the political themes aren't handled maturely and aren't handled in the right way. It is very, very blatantly not looking at both sides of the argument. Sleep No More - 10/10. Loved it. Not being ironic, but it's one of my favourite Doctor Who stories of all time. Thing is that you could almost see this being an episode of Inside No. 9 or Black Mirror or a modern take on the Hinchcliffe period pastice stories. If you watch it like that, you'll probably appreciate it more. Face The Raven - 7.5/10. It's good. Very, very good idea. Probably one of Peter Capaldi's best performances (that said Sleep No More and onwards he becomes a Doctor I actually enjoy). Rigsy's also good. Clara's okay and the death is kind of hysterical because it's her own fault. Also, I'm no fan of Aschildr or Maisie Williams. Heaven Sent - 9/10. Very, very clever story. But the last ten minutes of the story kind of let it down. Whilst they're very well directed, the Doctor is kind of being a plonker, with him punching the wall. Capaldi's also good. However, the Gallifrey reveal is way too predictable. Hell Bent - 2/10. Not very good. The opening part is very well directed, but lacks much story. After that, it is really aimless drivel trying to make an ending. Unfortunately, it isn't coherent. The Husbands Of River Song. 8/10. A fun little romp, with a superb ending.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 6, 2017 19:03:57 GMT
I'm glad you liked it, I know you have been critical of who as of now, but if you enjoy it, that's great. The Zygon Invasion/Inversion - 5/10. It's a very fun adventure, but the political themes aren't handled maturely and aren't handled in the right way. It is very, very blatantly not looking at both sides of the argument. If it is blatantly not looking at both sides of the argument then that is probably very intentional. And why should any piece of drama have to look at both sides? And honestly, the main takeaway that we should do more listening and less talking strikes me as a worthy & common sense position.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 19:21:39 GMT
I'm glad you liked it, I know you have been critical of who as of now, but if you enjoy it, that's great. I know I am critical, but I don't just say things are bad to make a point. If something is good or all right I'll say it is. If it's bad I'll say so too. I mean, in terms of Series 9, here's how it goes for me, in case anyone was interesting: The Magician's Apprentice/Witch's Familiar - 8.5/10. Very much enjoyed, but still don't think Missy is the Master. I think she's a bit too different, considering all other incarnations. Under The Lake/Before The Flood - 6/10. It's quite well written. The acting's very good. But it's still a shameful rip-off of Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, right down to the minute. Literally. The Girl Who Died - 4/10. Not paricualrly good. The Woman Who Lived - 3.5/10. A good idea, but handled not very well. The Zygon Invasion/Inversion - 5/10. It's a very fun adventure, but the political themes aren't handled maturely and aren't handled in the right way. It is very, very blatantly not looking at both sides of the argument. Sleep No More - 10/10. Loved it. Not being ironic, but it's one of my favourite Doctor Who stories of all time. Thing is that you could almost see this being an episode of Inside No. 9 or Black Mirror or a modern take on the Hinchcliffe period pastice stories. If you watch it like that, you'll probably appreciate it more. Face The Raven - 7.5/10. It's good. Very, very good idea. Probably one of Peter Capaldi's best performances (that said Sleep No More and onwards he becomes a Doctor I actually enjoy). Rigsy's also good. Clara's okay and the death is kind of hysterical because it's her own fault. Also, I'm no fan of Aschildr or Maisie Williams. Heaven Sent - 9/10. Very, very clever story. But the last ten minutes of the story kind of let it down. Whilst they're very well directed, the Doctor is kind of being a plonker, with him punching the wall. Capaldi's also good. However, the Gallifrey reveal is way too predictable. Hell Bent - 2/10. Not very good. The opening part is very well directed, but lacks much story. After that, it is really aimless drivel trying to make an ending. Unfortunately, it isn't coherent. The Husbands Of River Song. 8/10. A fun little romp, with a superb ending. I hope you didn't think I was trying to be rude, just wanted to say I'm glad. Great points on all the episodes in series 9. Have a great weekend!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 19:27:18 GMT
The Zygon Invasion/Inversion - 5/10. It's a very fun adventure, but the political themes aren't handled maturely and aren't handled in the right way. It is very, very blatantly not looking at both sides of the argument. If it is blatantly not looking at both sides of the argument then that is probably very intentional. And why should any piece of drama have to look at both sides? And honestly, the main takeaway that we should do more listening and less talking strikes me as a worthy & common sense position. It's clearly trying to do ISIS is the point and, as you might've guessed, I'm a tory. I'd rather it did look at both sides, especially since I disagree with quite a portion of it and it's very one sided.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 19:28:43 GMT
I know I am critical, but I don't just say things are bad to make a point. If something is good or all right I'll say it is. If it's bad I'll say so too. I mean, in terms of Series 9, here's how it goes for me, in case anyone was interesting: The Magician's Apprentice/Witch's Familiar - 8.5/10. Very much enjoyed, but still don't think Missy is the Master. I think she's a bit too different, considering all other incarnations. Under The Lake/Before The Flood - 6/10. It's quite well written. The acting's very good. But it's still a shameful rip-off of Impossible Planet/Satan Pit, right down to the minute. Literally. The Girl Who Died - 4/10. Not paricualrly good. The Woman Who Lived - 3.5/10. A good idea, but handled not very well. The Zygon Invasion/Inversion - 5/10. It's a very fun adventure, but the political themes aren't handled maturely and aren't handled in the right way. It is very, very blatantly not looking at both sides of the argument. Sleep No More - 10/10. Loved it. Not being ironic, but it's one of my favourite Doctor Who stories of all time. Thing is that you could almost see this being an episode of Inside No. 9 or Black Mirror or a modern take on the Hinchcliffe period pastice stories. If you watch it like that, you'll probably appreciate it more. Face The Raven - 7.5/10. It's good. Very, very good idea. Probably one of Peter Capaldi's best performances (that said Sleep No More and onwards he becomes a Doctor I actually enjoy). Rigsy's also good. Clara's okay and the death is kind of hysterical because it's her own fault. Also, I'm no fan of Aschildr or Maisie Williams. Heaven Sent - 9/10. Very, very clever story. But the last ten minutes of the story kind of let it down. Whilst they're very well directed, the Doctor is kind of being a plonker, with him punching the wall. Capaldi's also good. However, the Gallifrey reveal is way too predictable. Hell Bent - 2/10. Not very good. The opening part is very well directed, but lacks much story. After that, it is really aimless drivel trying to make an ending. Unfortunately, it isn't coherent. The Husbands Of River Song. 8/10. A fun little romp, with a superb ending. I hope you didn't think I was trying to be rude, just wanted to say I'm glad. Great points on all the episodes in series 9. Have a great weekend! If I'm honest, I just thought people might be interested, because I didn't really hate it. It was just some of the episodes I didn't like. I was doing it more for the benefit of everyone, so as to just briefly go over a few of the things I did like and things I didn't.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 19:39:28 GMT
I hope you didn't think I was trying to be rude, just wanted to say I'm glad. Great points on all the episodes in series 9. Have a great weekend! If I'm honest, I just thought people might be interested, because I didn't really hate it. It was just some of the episodes I didn't like. I was doing it more for the benefit of everyone, so as to just briefly go over a few of the things I did like and things I didn't. And that is fair enough, everyone has a differing opinion and wether or not they agree, is perfectly fine. And if I'm being honest, with the exception of The Zygon 2-Parter, I whole Hardily agree.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 13:53:39 GMT
If it is blatantly not looking at both sides of the argument then that is probably very intentional. And why should any piece of drama have to look at both sides? And honestly, the main takeaway that we should do more listening and less talking strikes me as a worthy & common sense position. It's clearly trying to do ISIS is the point and, as you might've guessed, I'm a tory. I'd rather it did look at both sides, especially since I disagree with quite a portion of it and it's very one sided. I've gone into depth about this on another thread, but I feel it didn't really address all the topics that it really should have. You can see similar social commentary in stories like The Curse of Peladon, The Ambassadors of Death and Frontier in Space that was handled a great deal more effectively. Storywise, it just doesn't fulfil the potential that it had. I still wish that they'd put the Doctor in a situation where his helping of the Zygons put him at odds with UNIT as humanitarian organisations have always faced the issue where the greatest threat was sometimes their own people. On the flip side of that is having Zygons do false flag operations where they shoot down their own plane on orders from imposters. Being given orders to shoot your own friend by your superior because you both believe they're a spy is incredibly gripping television, especially when you've got the sides mixed up. Hell, what if the greatest irony was that Clara's doppelganger gave up, but it was her underling who went all the way with it because as it turned out, her recruit was more fanatical than she was? The story really did suffer from not having enough perspectives. The idealists, the extinctionists, the pessimists, the self-interested, the altruists, and everything in between. I think it would have been really powerful if the Doctor had been through hell before he got to that archive. Nursing two bullet wounds from both sides in the same shoulder and had still sat down with the intention of ending these things peaceably. Not despite what he had seen, but because of it. If there is one thing we can all agree on, it's that we don't want war. Not for our families, not for our friends, not for ourselves and often not even for strangers. It doesn't matter whether you are liberal or conservative, from the countryside or a major city, if there is a way to make the killing stop, then it is worth taking. It's hard because hatred and fear get so comfortable that it's difficult feeling any other way, but it is worth the risk if it means that people can finally live without that fear or hatred. It's a small planet, it's getting smaller and if we as a species believe that someone else has to die in order for us to feel safe in our views than we are not worthy of living past this century. If we do not try to talk, then we are as good as dead already.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Jan 7, 2017 14:02:54 GMT
I haven't watched many of the Eccleston/Tennant eps for years, and I still haven't seen all of Smith's run, but I'd say Series 9 is my favourite of New Who so far.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 16:35:32 GMT
It's clearly trying to do ISIS is the point and, as you might've guessed, I'm a tory. I'd rather it did look at both sides, especially since I disagree with quite a portion of it and it's very one sided. I've gone into depth about this on another thread, but I feel it didn't really address all the topics that it really should have. You can see similar social commentary in stories like The Curse of Peladon, The Ambassadors of Death and Frontier in Space that was handled a great deal more effectively. Storywise, it just doesn't fulfil the potential that it had. I still wish that they'd put the Doctor in a situation where his helping of the Zygons put him at odds with UNIT as humanitarian organisations have always faced the issue where the greatest threat was sometimes their own people. On the flip side of that is having Zygons do false flag operations where they shoot down their own plane on orders from imposters. Being given orders to shoot your own friend by your superior because you both believe they're a spy is incredibly gripping television, especially when you've got the sides mixed up. Hell, what if the greatest irony was that Clara's doppelganger gave up, but it was her underling who went all the way with it because as it turned out, her recruit was more fanatical than she was? The story really did suffer from not having enough perspectives. The idealists, the extinctionists, the pessimists, the self-interested, the altruists, and everything in between. I think it would have been really powerful if the Doctor had been through hell before he got to that archive. Nursing two bullet wounds from both sides in the same shoulder and had still sat down with the intention of ending these things peaceably. Not despite what he had seen, but because of it. If there is one thing we can all agree on, it's that we don't want war. Not for our families, not for our friends, not for ourselves and often not even for strangers. It doesn't matter whether you are liberal or conservative, from the countryside or a major city, if there is a way to make the killing stop, then it is worth taking. It's hard because hatred and fear get so comfortable that it's difficult feeling any other way, but it is worth the risk if it means that people can finally live without that fear or hatred. It's a small planet, it's getting smaller and if we as a species believe that someone else has to die in order for us to feel safe in our views than we are not worthy of living past this century. If we do not try to talk, then we are as good as dead already. I agree with you. I think the story was definitely enjoyable, but the plot itself didn't tone itself right. Didn't have anything particularly interesting. And was very one-sided and one-dimensional in more than one way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 16:36:39 GMT
I haven't watched many of the Eccleston/Tennant eps for years, and I still haven't seen all of Smith's run, but I'd say Series 9 is my favourite of New Who so far. I know everyone'll probably disagree, but I think Series 1 and 2 are the best series. Followed by Series 4. Then Series 3. Then Series 8 and 9 joint. Followed by Series 5. Then Seven. Then Six.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jan 7, 2017 18:34:04 GMT
I haven't watched many of the Eccleston/Tennant eps for years, and I still haven't seen all of Smith's run, but I'd say Series 9 is my favourite of New Who so far. I know everyone'll probably disagree, but I think Series 1 and 2 are the best series. Followed by Series 4. Then Series 3. Then Series 8 and 9 joint. Followed by Series 5. Then Seven. Then Six. I definitely wouldn't say Series 1 was my favourite, but I'm glad to find someone else who likes Series 2. It's a very under-rated series IMO - I still don't get why so many people hate Fear Her, for example.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2017 19:17:19 GMT
I know everyone'll probably disagree, but I think Series 1 and 2 are the best series. Followed by Series 4. Then Series 3. Then Series 8 and 9 joint. Followed by Series 5. Then Seven. Then Six. I definitely wouldn't say Series 1 was my favourite, but I'm glad to find someone else who likes Series 2. It's a very under-rated series IMO - I still don't get why so many people hate Fear Her, for example. I actually really like Fear Her.
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