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Post by doctorkernow on Mar 3, 2017 19:11:49 GMT
Hello again. As you can see I have a question for the citizens of the Divergent Universe.
The Day of the Doctor, reversed the outcome of the Time War for Gallifrey so that the planet wasn't destroyed including the innocent children. Now, Ten and Eleven were with the War Doctor so presumably they knew that Gallifrey survived following this adventure.
Also the War Doctor seemed to regenerate directly after the events of his meeting with Ten and Eleven. So would the Ninth Doctor now know that "his world didn't burn." This would mean that his character would not feel guilty at destroying his home world. So he would still have the scars of a terrible war but not be the destroyer of worlds.
Now, there is of course the possibility that after this adventure all Doctors after returning to their own time streams forget their role in saving Gallifrey. If that is the case, the Ninth Doctor would be the same as we knew him in End of the World and Dalek in particular.
Can anyone untangle this knot? At the end of this story I was most put out that the RTD's original premise of having the Doctor as the last of his kind was steamrolled out of existence. Or was it? Answers on a postcard please....
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 3, 2017 19:47:01 GMT
The past Doctors forgot the involvement of their future selves/self; just as the first-through-eighth and ninth forgot after they helped out. The 9th Doctor could only remember the War Doctor with the Moment and Gallifrey no longer being there. The 10th Doctor only remembered marrying Elizabeth I. The seventh Doctor *did* remember helping save Gallifrey, but there were two of him there (hey, maybe that's it! One of him was the 'Cold Fusion' novel Doctor and the other was the audio version!!).
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Post by doctorkernow on Mar 3, 2017 20:11:05 GMT
Hello again. Thanks Fitzoliverj. Two Seventh Doctors? Say what! Typical trust him to be there twice.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2017 21:18:15 GMT
The past Doctors forgot the involvement of their future selves/self; just as the first-through-eighth and ninth forgot after they helped out. The 9th Doctor could only remember the War Doctor with the Moment and Gallifrey no longer being there. The 10th Doctor only remembered marrying Elizabeth I. The seventh Doctor *did* remember helping save Gallifrey, but there were two of him there (hey, maybe that's it! One of him was the 'Cold Fusion' novel Doctor and the other was the audio version!!). Actually the fifth and seventh Doctors remember that they are performing a calculation which will one day allow a future version to save Gallifrey. Eleven probably just left them a note to avoid amnesia.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2017 4:07:10 GMT
Well, they say that in Cold Fusion, but since that happens pre DOTD, how do we know they remember? They may forget in the meantime.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2017 4:09:02 GMT
Hello again. Thanks Fitzoliverj. Two Seventh Doctors? Say what! Typical trust him to be there twice. It IS typical 7, but then again that's personal canon. For the likes of myself it's once because the books are apocrypha to the TV/BF stories.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2017 4:10:50 GMT
As an aside, what about 12? Are we going to see in Series 10 how those eyebrows appeared in DOTD? 11 never told a future self because he was sure he didn't have one, so how does he know to come back? Unless the General told him? Then again, were they counting Ten2? Who wasn't there?
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 4, 2017 4:30:50 GMT
As an aside, what about 12? Are we going to see in Series 10 how those eyebrows appeared in DOTD? 11 never told a future self because he was sure he didn't have one, so how does he know to come back? Unless the General told him? Then again, were they counting Ten2? Who wasn't there? As Ten2 recounts having married Queen Elizabeth I in The End of Time - Part One, it would have been Ten2 there throughout all of Day of the Doctor. It would have been Ten1 who was absent (Sorry, a very picky gripe, but one is allowed one's flaws, otherwise one is boring )
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Post by icecreamdf on Mar 4, 2017 6:18:41 GMT
The only Doctor who properly remembered Day of the Doctor was Eleven. War would remember the stuff that happenned on Gallifrey before the Moment flung him into the future, and Ten would remember marrying Queen Elizabeth and hanging out with Zygons before War and Eleven showed up. The first eight Doctors and Nine wouldn't remember any of it. Since Eleven didn't lose his memory, Twelve remembers the whole thing from Eleven's point of view.
Seven was either their twice, or he aged horribly while he was their. They used clips from his time on the TV show, and from the TV Movie. I'm pretty sure that that was a mistake.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 6:21:10 GMT
Well, they say that in Cold Fusion, but since that happens pre DOTD, how do we know they remember? They may forget in the meantime. That was the point I was making. There's no evidence any Doctors require the actual event.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 6:22:14 GMT
Hello again. Thanks Fitzoliverj. Two Seventh Doctors? Say what! Typical trust him to be there twice. It IS typical 7, but then again that's personal canon. For the likes of myself it's once because the books are apocrypha to the TV/BF stories. Well I definitely saw two of him. They all could have been there multiple times if the calculation required 58 TARDISES. the generals comment about all thirteen clearly only related to different faces.
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Post by icecreamdf on Mar 4, 2017 6:27:59 GMT
It IS typical 7, but then again that's personal canon. For the likes of myself it's once because the books are apocrypha to the TV/BF stories. Well I definitely saw two of him. They all could have been there multiple times if the calculation required 58 TARDISES. the generals comment about all thirteen clearly only related to different faces. I'm pretty sure that Moffat discussed that in DWM once, and said that that was a mistake. Of course it is our duty as fans to come up with elaborate theories to explain away any mistake.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Mar 4, 2017 8:40:24 GMT
Hello again. Thanks Fitzoliverj. Two Seventh Doctors? Say what! Typical trust him to be there twice. It IS typical 7, but then again that's personal canon. For the likes of myself it's once because the books are apocrypha to the TV/BF stories. INSTAYDIA apocrypha? Oh that hurts me. and agree, typical 7.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 4, 2017 14:14:44 GMT
Hello again. Thanks Fitzoliverj. Two Seventh Doctors? Say what! Typical trust him to be there twice. It IS typical 7, but then again that's personal canon. For the likes of myself it's once because the books are apocrypha to the TV/BF stories. What? I'm pretty sure that "The Day of the Doctor" (featuring clips of Sylvester McCoy from "Battlefield" and the TVM) was on television. Not a book. I think if you're taking bits of the tv series you don't like and assigning them to books, that's the most personal canon of all! (Also, I'm not sure that 'the books' are apocrypha to either tv or Big Finish. Some books, perhaps; maybe even 'most books'; but the early ninth Doctor novels were deliberately constructed in line with the tv series to be consistent - hence a reference in "Boom Town" to one novel - and many Big Finish plays derive from material published in prose originally - Bernice Summerfield, Romana as President - without necessarily retelling the same stories).
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2017 16:34:55 GMT
It IS typical 7, but then again that's personal canon. For the likes of myself it's once because the books are apocrypha to the TV/BF stories. What? I'm pretty sure that "The Day of the Doctor" (featuring clips of Sylvester McCoy from "Battlefield" and the TVM) was on television. Not a book. I think if you're taking bits of the tv series you don't like and assigning them to books, that's the most personal canon of all! (Also, I'm not sure that 'the books' are apocrypha to either tv or Big Finish. Some books, perhaps; maybe even 'most books'; but the early ninth Doctor novels were deliberately constructed in line with the tv series to be consistent - hence a reference in "Boom Town" to one novel - and many Big Finish plays derive from material published in prose originally - Bernice Summerfield, Romana as President - without necessarily retelling the same stories). Yes, two clips of McCoy, being from two stories. And that's the TV dept finding suitable clips rather than 7 appearing twice. If everyone wants to think he appeared twice then they're free to do so. Taking bits of the TV series and assigning them to books? I literally don't know what you are talking about because I have never done that, ever. And the sentence reads, minus the reference to DOTD, "For the likes of myself ...the books are apocrypha to the TV/BF stories."
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 4, 2017 19:31:31 GMT
It's a bit of a mess. Throughout the Ninth Doctors tv adventures he repeatedly says that he fought in the Time War. Now, he's not boasting, or proud, but hes certainly not ashamed. Then The War Doctor appears, at the end of The Name of the Doctor, and suddenly, he's the Doctor "we" don't talk about! This, I feel, contradicts the character of the Ninth Doctor! Is there a paradox which contradicts what the War Doctor does according to Eleven, and what Nine thinks he does? Did Eleven and Ten change the mind of The War Doctor? It's still a mess!
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Post by sherlock on Mar 4, 2017 20:53:24 GMT
It's a bit of a mess. Throughout the Ninth Doctors tv adventures he repeatedly says that he fought in the Time War. Now, he's not boasting, or proud, but hes certainly not ashamed. Then The War Doctor appears, at the end of The Name of the Doctor, and suddenly, he's the Doctor "we" don't talk about! This, I feel, contradicts the character of the Ninth Doctor! Is there a paradox which contradicts what the War Doctor does according to Eleven, and what Nine thinks he does? Did Eleven and Ten change the mind of The War Doctor? It's still a mess! I think it's a just a form of denial. The Doctor never hid the fact he fought in the War, but he never said what he actually did during it. All he admitted to was what he did at the end of the War (which is kind of impossible to hide, and even then he only does so in emotionally-charged moments). It makes perfect sense for the Doctor post-war to try and brush off past actions as not 'the Doctor' but another guy-denial essentially. To put it simply post-war Doctors vilified the War Doctor out of guilt, they feel they should have found another way to end the War and so blame that incarnation for failing to do so. Upon meeting him/them again in the Day of the Doctor they're forced to confront this guilt, and accept that he is them and he/they had no choice (that's the whole point of the red button scene). However a side-effect of that meeting is they do find another way and save Gallifrey. Unfortunately due to the shenanigans of time travel only the Eleventh Doctor remembers it, so there's no paradox. Presumably all Nine-pre Day Eleven remember is taking the Moment to the barn, having their hand above the big red button, and then Gallifrey being gone (maybe they assumed trauma hid the memory of actually doing it). At least that's my understanding.
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Post by doctorkernow on Mar 4, 2017 21:22:01 GMT
Hello again. Firstly, thank you to those who answered my question. I am now even more confused. Ten1 and Ten2? I wish the eleventh Doctor had left me a note preferably with diagrams.
So, each Doctor except Eleven forgot their role in saving Gallifrey. This means that for Nine as we saw him from Rose to Parting of the Ways thought Gallifrey was no more. It also means Doctor Ten until Stolen Earth is also ignorant of Gallifrey's survival. Complicated? Not much, even River Song's timeline was easier than this. I don't think I realised that the Doctor's forgot their role. I must watch DOTD again.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 21:25:09 GMT
Hello again. Firstly, thank you to those who answered my question. I am now even more confused. Ten1 and Ten2? I wish the eleventh Doctor had left me a note preferably with diagrams. So, each Doctor except Eleven forgot their role in saving Gallifrey. This means that for Nine as we saw him from Rose to Parting of the Ways thought Gallifrey was no more. It also means Doctor Ten until Stolen Earth is also ignorant of Gallifrey's survival. Complicated? Not much, even River Song's timeline was easier than this. I don't think I realised that the Doctor's forgot their role. I must watch DOTD again. Close. Doctor 10 never remembers Gallifrey's survival. 11 also believes it to be destroyed right to up until the moment he comes up with his alternative plan.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2017 21:30:30 GMT
What? I'm pretty sure that "The Day of the Doctor" (featuring clips of Sylvester McCoy from "Battlefield" and the TVM) was on television. Not a book. I think if you're taking bits of the tv series you don't like and assigning them to books, that's the most personal canon of all! (Also, I'm not sure that 'the books' are apocrypha to either tv or Big Finish. Some books, perhaps; maybe even 'most books'; but the early ninth Doctor novels were deliberately constructed in line with the tv series to be consistent - hence a reference in "Boom Town" to one novel - and many Big Finish plays derive from material published in prose originally - Bernice Summerfield, Romana as President - without necessarily retelling the same stories). Yes, two clips of McCoy, being from two stories. And that's the TV dept finding suitable clips rather than 7 appearing twice. If everyone wants to think he appeared twice then they're free to do so. Taking bits of the TV series and assigning them to books? I literally don't know what you are talking about because I have never done that, ever. And the sentence reads, minus the reference to DOTD, "For the likes of myself ...the books are apocrypha to the TV/BF stories." No matter what the.production reasons were, or whether it was a mistake or not it is an unavoidable fact that we see two different 7s. Remember in the clips we see of 10 it is also possible one of them is actually 10a (it's 10b that actually takes part in DOTD). Why would it make any sense for a 2000 year old person who's had multiple faces and need also to appear simultaneously multiple times to send one of each face. It could just have easily been thirteen 11s turn up. Actually why don't we have that as the next multi Doctor story - the Five Capaldi's.
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