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Post by sherlock on Mar 4, 2017 21:37:21 GMT
Hello again. Firstly, thank you to those who answered my question. I am now even more confused. Ten1 and Ten2? I wish the eleventh Doctor had left me a note preferably with diagrams. Dunno why Ten1 and Ten2 come into this. There's only one Tenth Doctor present at Gallifrey and that's the one we follow in Day. The only Doctor we can really speculate was there twice is the Seventh because of that error with the archive footage.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2017 21:38:36 GMT
Unless that 7 was the Doctor where the time differential shorted a bit? So it's just one 7 aging a bit. No, it doesn't explain why it didn't happen to the others, unless we just didn't see it happen to the others, which is a perfectly cromulent reason
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Post by sherlock on Mar 4, 2017 21:40:42 GMT
Unless that 7 was the Doctor where the time differential shorted a bit? So it's just one 7 aging a bit. No, it doesn't explain why it didn't happen to the others, unless we just didn't see it happen to the others, which is a perfectly cromulent reason That was Moffat's explanation when pressed in DWM. In his head all the temporal shenanigans happening caused a blip, appearing to age the seventh Doctor.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Mar 4, 2017 21:43:04 GMT
Nope.
- The Ninth Doctor couldn't remember what happened (due to how previous Doctors and companions forget what happened during multi-Doctor adventures) and assumed he used the Moment.
- The Tenth and Eleventh Doctors carried on this assumption.
- It's not until the Eleventh Doctor in Day of the Doctor that the 11th Doctor releases he never used The Moment.
Using The Moment never happened. Time wasn't rewritten. The Doctor had found another way after all, despite believing otherwise.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2017 21:45:01 GMT
Nope. - The Ninth Doctor couldn't remember what happened (due to how previous Doctors and companions forget what happened during multi-Doctor adventures) and assumed he used the Moment. - The Tenth and Eleventh Doctors carried on this assumption. - It's not until the Eleventh Doctor in Day of the Doctor that the 11th Doctor releases he never used The Moment. Using The Moment never happened. Time wasn't rewritten. The Doctor had found another way after all, despite believing otherwise. Still doesn't explain how 12 was there, and knew he needed to be there, since as far as 11 knew he, 11, was the last Doctor.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Mar 4, 2017 21:45:56 GMT
Nope. - The Ninth Doctor couldn't remember what happened (due to how previous Doctors and companions forget what happened during multi-Doctor adventures) and assumed he used the Moment. - The Tenth and Eleventh Doctors carried on this assumption. - It's not until the Eleventh Doctor in Day of the Doctor that the 11th Doctor releases he never used The Moment. Using The Moment never happened. Time wasn't rewritten. The Doctor had found another way after all, despite believing otherwise. Still doesn't explain how 12 was there, and knew he needed to be there, since as far as 11 knew he, 11, was the last Doctor. Because he remembers he was there.
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Post by ollychops on Mar 4, 2017 21:47:01 GMT
Clearly Twelve decided to go back and help out his previous incarnations...
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2017 21:51:04 GMT
Still doesn't explain how 12 was there, and knew he needed to be there, since as far as 11 knew he, 11, was the last Doctor. Because he remembers he was there. How? He remembers he was there as the others. How does he remember he was there as 12 when 12 is his future? And at no point is the existence of 12 noted by any of the others, and since 11 remembers the entire DOTD he should know by the TOTD that he will have another regeneration if that were true, but he doesn't. So when does 12 find out? I thought myself that it might be the General, and it may yet be, but as of now/then as far as the Timelords know there are 13 Doctors there. They know how many regenerations he has had, and 12 is the 14th! They may be slotting 12 into that slot Ten2 occupies, and why wouldn't they? They haven't after all given him any more regenerations yet.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2017 21:52:37 GMT
Clearly Twelve decided to go back and help out his previous incarnations... Well yes, but my point is how does he know he has to? If it is something as simple as 12's imprint being found later by 12 himself in the Tardis' record of the plan to save Gallifrey then that works very easily, but we weren't told, hence my query.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 4, 2017 22:34:38 GMT
Clearly Twelve decided to go back and help out his previous incarnations... Well yes, but my point is how does he know he has to? If it is something as simple as 12's imprint being found later by 12 himself in the Tardis' record of the plan to save Gallifrey then that works very easily, but we weren't told, hence my query. The simple answer is we just don't know. Hopefully we'll get an explanation before Capaldi leaves.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Mar 4, 2017 23:11:11 GMT
Because he remembers he was there. How? He remembers he was there as the others. How does he remember he was there as 12 when 12 is his future? And at no point is the existence of 12 noted by any of the others, and since 11 remembers the entire DOTD he should know by the TOTD that he will have another regeneration if that were true, but he doesn't. So when does 12 find out? I thought myself that it might be the General, and it may yet be, but as of now/then as far as the Timelords know there are 13 Doctors there. They know how many regenerations he has had, and 12 is the 14th! They may be slotting 12 into that slot Ten2 occupies, and why wouldn't they? They haven't after all given him any more regenerations yet. Because it had already happened, and he doesn't remember it already happening until his eleventh incarnation. Presumably 11 is so distracted by being the last incarnation of his current regeneration cycle that it fails to register with him that the future Doctor must come after him and therefore means he doesn't die on Trenzalore.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 4, 2017 23:17:35 GMT
Nope. - The Ninth Doctor couldn't remember what happened (due to how previous Doctors and companions forget what happened during multi-Doctor adventures). There is nothing that suggest companions forget. But, there is another contradition. The War Doctor forgets because its an Eleventh story. However, at some point Twelve joins the party, before he becomes the Doctor. So why shouldn't The War Doctor remember before he becomes Nine?
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 5, 2017 0:19:30 GMT
Nope. - The Ninth Doctor couldn't remember what happened (due to how previous Doctors and companions forget what happened during multi-Doctor adventures). There is nothing that suggest companions forget. But, there is another contradition. The War Doctor forgets because its an Eleventh story. However, at some point Twelve joins the party, before he becomes the Doctor. So why shouldn't The War Doctor remember before he becomes Nine? BEFORE he becomes the Doctor? Time machine! Time machine! He very obviously can't join before he becomes the Doctor but he can travel back, and even Nine travelling back won't matter because only the current Doctor remembers. SO since 11 and 12 are there and 11 is the current Doctor for DOTD then 12 being there means that he is the current Doctor for a DIFFERENT adventure that leads him to that point, otherwise 11 wouldn't remember. So we have another as yet untold story involving the events on that day. Rather like a lot of different Doctors showing up in a particular garden in 1963 for no apparent reason. As for companions forgetting? Has that really been hashed out? I think we need a different thread to examine all the companions in the various different multi Doctor stories and if they remember or not.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 5, 2017 0:58:28 GMT
I think I understand what charlesuirdhein is saying (if not then it's a point I'm making ), and I would also like to elaborate on it: When the Doctors have their hands over the Moment, 11 has his epiphany moment, which 10 and War then also get. This MUST be them remembering their actions in freezing Gallifrey in their previous incarnations (if it was 11's plan he would have had to actually tell 10 and War what it was, but they already knew - and don't give me that psychic link nonsense, as they hadn't established 'contact' ). They then go about their business in their part of saving Gallifrey. This poses some questions though: 1. When did the First Doctor first learn about Gallifrey needing to be frozen to begin the calculations? 2. The calculations issue. When the Doctors all appear towards the end of Day of the Doctor for the freezing process, as far as 11 is aware, the calculations CAN'T BE COMPLETE YET. If they were, there would have been no reason for 12 to turn up as well. As 11 didn't know that he was ever going to regenerate again, why did the Doctors even bother to try this in the first place? 11 would know that the task was impossible, so why did they do it? 12 turning up would have been an absolute miracle to him! This plays havoc with the end of the story too. If previous Doctors in this story don't remember the events then, as 12 was the 'latest' Doctor to appear, 11 would also have forgotten his part in the freezing of Gallifrey, and as such would still be unaware that it had been saved. This contradicts his closing monologue in Day of the Doctor, where he says he is 'going home' - he shouldn't be able to remember Gallifrey still exists, so this doesn't make any sense. This is explainable by him feeling uncertain that the process had worked, as he admits to the Curator at the end of Day of the Doctor. It is here, however, where he learns that it did work. This, however, must categorically prove that the Curator is not a future version of the Doctor (as is HEAVILY suggested/stated), otherwise 11 would have forgotten the conversation (as the Curator is the 'latest' version present) and things would have wound up like I said in the previous paragraph. HOWEVER, I'm certain I've read somewhere that Steven Moffat has confirmed that the Curator is supposed to be future Doctor, so 11 should still have been none the wiser that they had succeeded. ...so why the hell was 12 there when they were freezing Gallifrey? He wouldn't remember the event ever taking place. People have postulated that the General informed him to go back and help, but that would required the Doctor to meet the General to be told in first place, and his clear lack of surprise at the end of Heaven Sent of being on Gallifrey clearly proves that he is aware that is survived... which he simply shouldn't be aware of. So, the point I think charlesuirdhein is trying to make is: 12 shouldn't have been there because there is literally no way 11 could have remembered for 12 to remember, as 12's being there in the first place would wipe 11's memories. If this is case - I see where you're coming from! If the isn't the case... does anyone else agree with me? 3. Where the hell did the idea to freeze Gallifrey come from in the first place. As I said earlier - 11, 10 and War MUST have been remembering their previous incarnations' actions... but where/what is the ball that set all these actions in motion? This is the sort of paradox that doesn't make sense to me - to me, a paradox can only exist whereby a there was an 'original', alternate time line where someone deliberately manipulated events in such a way as to cause a paradox. I can think of no way how this particular paradox could have been created, and as such burns in the fires of Hell alongside The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang in terms of impossible-to-create-in-the-first-place paradoxes! Sorry for the extremely long post! I don't partake in too many of these discussions, but this one got me quite excited, and I love all the time line/chronology stuff ...it's just a crying shame that so much of the time line/chronology stuff Just. Doesn't. Work.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 5, 2017 1:18:25 GMT
2. The calculations issue. When the Doctors all appear towards the end of Day of the Doctor for the freezing process, as far as 11 is aware, the calculations CAN'T BE COMPLETE YET. If they were, there would have been no reason for 12 to turn up as well. As 11 didn't know that he was ever going to regenerate again, why did the Doctors even bother to try this in the first place? 11 would know that the task was impossible, so why did they do it? 12 turning up would have been an absolute miracle to him! This plays havoc with the end of the story too. If previous Doctors in this story don't remember the events then, as 12 was the 'latest' Doctor to appear, 11 would also have forgotten his part in the freezing of Gallifrey, and as such would still be unaware that it had been saved. This contradicts his closing monologue in Day of the Doctor, where he says he is 'going home' - he shouldn't be able to remember Gallifrey still exists, so this doesn't make any sense. This is explainable by him feeling uncertain that the process had worked, as he admits to the Curator at the end of Day of the Doctor. It is here, however, where he learns that it did work. This, however, must categorically prove that the Curator is not a future version of the Doctor (as is HEAVILY suggested/stated), otherwise 11 would have forgotten the conversation (as the Curator is the 'latest' version present) and things would have wound up like I said in the previous paragraph. HOWEVER, I'm certain I've read somewhere that Steven Moffat has confirmed that the Curator is supposed to be future Doctor, so 11 should still have been none the wiser that they had succeeded. ...so why the hell was 12 there when they were freezing Gallifrey? He wouldn't remember the event ever taking place. People have postulated that the General informed him to go back and help, but that would required the Doctor to meet the General to be told in first place, and his clear lack of surprise at the end of Heaven Sent of being on Gallifrey clearly proves that he is aware that is survived... which he simply shouldn't be aware of. So, the point I think charlesuirdhein is trying to make is: 12 shouldn't have been there because there is literally no way 11 could have remembered for 12 to remember, as 12's being there in the first place would wipe 11's memories. If this is case - I see where you're coming from! If the isn't the case... does anyone else agree with me? 3. Where the hell did the idea to freeze Gallifrey come from in the first place. As I said earlier - 11, 10 and War MUST have been remembering their previous incarnations' actions... but where/what is the ball that set all these actions in motion? This is the sort of paradox that doesn't make sense to me - to me, a paradox can only exist whereby a there was an 'original', alternate time line where someone deliberately manipulated events in such a way as to cause a paradox. I can think of no way how this particular paradox could have been created, and as such burns in the fires of Hell alongside The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang in terms of impossible-to-create-in-the-first-place paradoxes! 1. Presumably War, 10 and 11 popped back to tell him and then recruited him to come save Gallifrey. Which presumably they repeated 9 times for all the other Doctors. 2. You have to look at the wording carefully: the reason given for past selves' memory loss is 'the timelines are out of sync'. The Day of the Doctor is primarily in the eleventh Doctor's timeline, with previous selves there courtesy of the Moment. All the other Doctors saving Gallifrey were presumably pulled out from their timelines by the future Doctors, hence they're out of their timelines too. Hence all previous selves are out of sync with their own timelines and once leaving forget what took place there. In their meeting both the Eleventh Doctor and the Curator are in both their respective timelines, they just happen to overlap at that one point. Hence they both remember it. Neither has been taken from their timelines. As for the Twelfth Doctor being there-who knows? Hopefully we get an explanation before Capaldi leaves. 3. They didn't remember from their previous incarnations. Eleven thought of it then, presumably telepathically passed it on to other Doctors via telepathy (hence the Tenth Doctor saying 'I'm getting that too!'). All the previous Doctors then forgot it due to the above.
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Post by mrperson on Mar 5, 2017 1:24:15 GMT
The past Doctors forgot the involvement of their future selves/self; just as the first-through-eighth and ninth forgot after they helped out. The 9th Doctor could only remember the War Doctor with the Moment and Gallifrey no longer being there. The 10th Doctor only remembered marrying Elizabeth I. The seventh Doctor *did* remember helping save Gallifrey, but there were two of him there (hey, maybe that's it! One of him was the 'Cold Fusion' novel Doctor and the other was the audio version!!). Actually the fifth and seventh Doctors remember that they are performing a calculation which will one day allow a future version to save Gallifrey. Eleven probably just left them a note to avoid amnesia. No wonder it took until 11 to regularly pilot the thing properly.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 5, 2017 1:48:44 GMT
2. The calculations issue. When the Doctors all appear towards the end of Day of the Doctor for the freezing process, as far as 11 is aware, the calculations CAN'T BE COMPLETE YET. If they were, there would have been no reason for 12 to turn up as well. As 11 didn't know that he was ever going to regenerate again, why did the Doctors even bother to try this in the first place? 11 would know that the task was impossible, so why did they do it? 12 turning up would have been an absolute miracle to him! This plays havoc with the end of the story too. If previous Doctors in this story don't remember the events then, as 12 was the 'latest' Doctor to appear, 11 would also have forgotten his part in the freezing of Gallifrey, and as such would still be unaware that it had been saved. This contradicts his closing monologue in Day of the Doctor, where he says he is 'going home' - he shouldn't be able to remember Gallifrey still exists, so this doesn't make any sense. This is explainable by him feeling uncertain that the process had worked, as he admits to the Curator at the end of Day of the Doctor. It is here, however, where he learns that it did work. This, however, must categorically prove that the Curator is not a future version of the Doctor (as is HEAVILY suggested/stated), otherwise 11 would have forgotten the conversation (as the Curator is the 'latest' version present) and things would have wound up like I said in the previous paragraph. HOWEVER, I'm certain I've read somewhere that Steven Moffat has confirmed that the Curator is supposed to be future Doctor, so 11 should still have been none the wiser that they had succeeded. ...so why the hell was 12 there when they were freezing Gallifrey? He wouldn't remember the event ever taking place. People have postulated that the General informed him to go back and help, but that would required the Doctor to meet the General to be told in first place, and his clear lack of surprise at the end of Heaven Sent of being on Gallifrey clearly proves that he is aware that is survived... which he simply shouldn't be aware of. So, the point I think charlesuirdhein is trying to make is: 12 shouldn't have been there because there is literally no way 11 could have remembered for 12 to remember, as 12's being there in the first place would wipe 11's memories. If this is case - I see where you're coming from! If the isn't the case... does anyone else agree with me? 3. Where the hell did the idea to freeze Gallifrey come from in the first place. As I said earlier - 11, 10 and War MUST have been remembering their previous incarnations' actions... but where/what is the ball that set all these actions in motion? This is the sort of paradox that doesn't make sense to me - to me, a paradox can only exist whereby a there was an 'original', alternate time line where someone deliberately manipulated events in such a way as to cause a paradox. I can think of no way how this particular paradox could have been created, and as such burns in the fires of Hell alongside The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang in terms of impossible-to-create-in-the-first-place paradoxes! 1. Presumably War, 10 and 11 popped back to tell him and then recruited him to come save Gallifrey. Which presumably they repeated 9 times for all the other Doctors. 2. You have to look at the wording carefully: the reason given for past selves' memory loss is 'the timelines are out of sync'. The Day of the Doctor is primarily in the eleventh Doctor's timeline, with previous selves there courtesy of the Moment. All the other Doctors saving Gallifrey were presumably pulled out from their timelines by the future Doctors, hence they're out of their timelines too. Hence all previous selves are out of sync with their own timelines and once leaving forget what took place there. In their meeting both the Eleventh Doctor and the Curator are in both their respective timelines, they just happen to overlap at that one point. Hence they both remember it. Neither has been taken from their timelines. As for the Twelfth Doctor being there-who knows? Hopefully we get an explanation before Capaldi leaves. 3. They didn't remember from their previous incarnations. Eleven thought of it then, presumably telepathically passed it on to other Doctors via telepathy (hence the Tenth Doctor saying 'I'm getting that too!'). All the previous Doctors then forgot it due to the above. N.B. I mean nothing in this post to in any way be antagonistic. I think you've ignored some very key points in my post. 1. That ties in with my '3' though - where did the idea come from for them to think of doing that? 2. 11 and the Curator meeting took place while the time lines were still trying to sort themselves out. And regardless of that, 2 doesn't remember meeting 6 in The Two Doctors when their time lines overlapped because, as a Timelord, he CANNOT know/remember his future selves (otherwise 5 wouldn't have been concerned about not regenerating in The Caves of Androzani, as he would have known he had at least one more body); this means that even when a Doctor is in their respective time stream, they are still going to forget any meetings with a future self, so 11 would still have forgotten that encounter. For the same reason, as 12 (presumably/almost certainly) wasn't pulled out of time by the Moment to help with freezing Gallifrey, as his would be in his respective time stream, 11, as a matter of course, would still have forgotten. And even if he wasn't and he was pulled in by the Moment, he himself would have forgotten that he had been there if you're assuming 11's is the 'dominant time stream' so to speak. Regardless of you're excuse, there simply isn't a way 12 should know to be/remember being there. 3. They can't have been telepathically communicating, as we know they have to say "Contact" to initialise a connection, which they didn't do. Also, if 10 is saying "I'm getting that too!", that doesn't sound like someone's reaction to being told "We can save them like this...", the reaction would be more like "Of course, you're right!". It comes across much more as "Oh, my mind is clearing and the answer is right before me - we DID this...". The wording MAY have been supposed to suggest telepathy... but it's very poorly done.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 5, 2017 2:02:04 GMT
N.B. I mean nothing in this post to in any way be antagonistic. I think you've ignored some very key points in my post. 1. That ties in with my '3' though - where did the idea come from for them to think of doing that? 2. 11 and the Curator meeting took place while the time lines were still trying to sort themselves out. And regardless of that, 2 doesn't remember meeting 6 in The Two Doctors when their time lines overlapped because, as a Timelord, he CANNOT know/remember his future selves (otherwise 5 wouldn't have been concerned about not regenerating in The Caves of Androzani, as he would have known he had at least one more body); this means that even when a Doctor is in their respective time stream, they are still going to forget any meetings with a future self, so 11 would still have forgotten that encounter. For the same reason, as 12 (presumably/almost certainly) wasn't pulled out of time by the Moment to help with freezing Gallifrey, as his would be in his respective time stream, 11, as a matter of course, would still have forgotten. And even if he wasn't and he was pulled in by the Moment, he himself would have forgotten that he had been there if you're assuming 11's is the 'dominant time stream' so to speak. Regardless of you're excuse, there simply isn't a way 12 should know to be/remember being there. 3. They can't have been telepathically communicating, as we know they have to say "Contact" to initialise a connection, which they didn't do. Also, if 10 is saying "I'm getting that too!", that doesn't sound like someone's reaction to being told "We can save them like this...", the reaction would be more like "Of course, you're right!". It comes across much more as "Oh, my mind is clearing and the answer is right before me - we DID this...". The wording MAY have been supposed to suggest telepathy... but it's very poorly done. 1. On watching I assumed Eleven came up with the idea then rather than remembering it, but I could be wrong 2. Perhaps the Eleventh Doctor couldn't remember the specifics of the conversation with the Curator just leaving with the indisputable knowledge that 'Gallifrey Falls No More', after all he never mentions it again, and that is assuming the Curator actually is a future Doctor (it's not confirmed). As for 12 being there, who knows at this point. We don't actually know what he contributed to saving Gallifrey or if the other Doctors were even aware of him (they were a little preoccupied at the time). Regarding The Two Doctors there's various explanations for the Second Doctor forgetting the event without temporal effects I understand Big Finish's explanation has him memory wiped shortly after and in the novels he's working for the CIA in 'Season 6B' during it, so they presumably cleared up his memory of the incident. Of course on screen there's no explanation at all. 3. Ten is clutching is head at the time he says that last line too. Alternatively he and war may have just had the same idea as eleven (they are the same person after all).
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 5, 2017 2:13:11 GMT
And the big get out of jail free card is...The Moment herself. The Time War is Time locked. War was only ever out of that period thanks to her and 10 and 11 only ever in it thanks to her, therefore can we assume that she definitely brought the others along too? Including 12? She is the only thing that "remembers forward", hence her choice of body as Rose Tyler. So, she is the only one who can (until they give us a different explanation) as far I can see, involve 12 because she is the only one there who could know that there will be a 12. As for forgetting and the Curator? I'm inclined to reiterate my point about different stories. Like I mentioned above with 12, the Curator is there in a story of his own that intersects the DOTD, he doesn't take part in it properly and isn't the current Doctor. And after he leaves we never hear of him again, perhaps 11 "forgot". Did Clara forget? Possibly, it too isn't addressed. With the Moment invoked then DOTD is not a "normal" multi Doctor story in that the Doctors are unsynched from their respective timelines rather than travelling forward or backward along them, sort of looping into them. And surely the side effects of a Time War would definitely be memory erasure. More later
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 2:34:07 GMT
I'd say that a lot of the consequences for The Day of the Doctor can be explained away by the Eleventh Doctor's journey into his own timestream in The Name of the Doctor, something which sounds like a really bad idea, let alone looks like one. I suspect that Day is a product of meddling we didn't see in Name, setting everything up for that final moment where the last vestiges of the RTD era gets wiped out. I suspect that the Renegade (a.k.a War Doctor) didn't exist until that episode and got retroactively stuck into place as part of Eleven's tampering with time, which could also have included him travelling back along his own chronology to a point where he could input the calculation into the TARDIS without his first self being aware he was even there (The Massacre or The War Machines, for example).
The TARDIS' systems putter away in the background all those years until, say, the Third Doctor discovers that such an algorithm is running during his tinkering while stranded on Earth. Since there's no televised story that works, let say that through another multi-Doctor story involving their first three incarnations, they band together and do that nonsensical climax for Day using the information that Three has. One (and possibly Two) would need some convincing that he'd be able to get away and Two/Three could arrange it so he could and the rest of his incarnations (in their various instances) follow suit at appropriate junctures in their lives.
As to how it affected the Ninth Doctor... I suspect that it created another timeline in which the consequences of his actions were far less drastic. He did wipe out Gallifrey in the RTD era, but in this new chronology, such a thing didn't occur. It was true then, but isn't now. The amnesia when each incarnation parts company may be due to Time Lord interference (Time of Your Life, The Five Doctors, etc.) or a biological defence mechanism that is designed to defend a Gallifreyan against changing deliberately changing his own future in the same way that humans black out memory after a particularly devastating trauma.
That's my take on it anyway. I might be having what is more commonly known as a quantum aneurysm here, I'm not sure.
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