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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 5, 2017 2:39:25 GMT
I'd always just assumed that 9 continues to believe that he, as War, had just used the Moment. And while I write this I'm thinking, suppose he DID use the Moment? The use of which begins from when she first speaks to him rather than his simply pressing a big red button. Argh, tired.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 7:38:46 GMT
Clearly Twelve decided to go back and help out his previous incarnations... Well yes, but my point is how does he know he has to? If it is something as simple as 12's imprint being found later by 12 himself in the Tardis' record of the plan to save Gallifrey then that works very easily, but we weren't told, hence my query. Because the calculation set running in 1s TARDIS doesn't complete until then? In my head Capaldi is just pottering about in his TARDIS one day when his console pings and a message comes up saying "calculation complete. Send course to multiple previous versions?" So off he goes to save the world.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 7:39:51 GMT
Nope. - The Ninth Doctor couldn't remember what happened (due to how previous Doctors and companions forget what happened during multi-Doctor adventures). There is nothing that suggest companions forget. But, there is another contradition. The War Doctor forgets because its an Eleventh story. However, at some point Twelve joins the party, before he becomes the Doctor. So why shouldn't The War Doctor remember before he becomes Nine? 12 never actually meets other incarnations in the story though so it's not comparable.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 7:43:22 GMT
2. The calculations issue. When the Doctors all appear towards the end of Day of the Doctor for the freezing process, as far as 11 is aware, the calculations CAN'T BE COMPLETE YET. If they were, there would have been no reason for 12 to turn up as well. As 11 didn't know that he was ever going to regenerate again, why did the Doctors even bother to try this in the first place? 11 would know that the task was impossible, so why did they do it? 12 turning up would have been an absolute miracle to him! This plays havoc with the end of the story too. If previous Doctors in this story don't remember the events then, as 12 was the 'latest' Doctor to appear, 11 would also have forgotten his part in the freezing of Gallifrey, and as such would still be unaware that it had been saved. This contradicts his closing monologue in Day of the Doctor, where he says he is 'going home' - he shouldn't be able to remember Gallifrey still exists, so this doesn't make any sense. This is explainable by him feeling uncertain that the process had worked, as he admits to the Curator at the end of Day of the Doctor. It is here, however, where he learns that it did work. This, however, must categorically prove that the Curator is not a future version of the Doctor (as is HEAVILY suggested/stated), otherwise 11 would have forgotten the conversation (as the Curator is the 'latest' version present) and things would have wound up like I said in the previous paragraph. HOWEVER, I'm certain I've read somewhere that Steven Moffat has confirmed that the Curator is supposed to be future Doctor, so 11 should still have been none the wiser that they had succeeded. ...so why the hell was 12 there when they were freezing Gallifrey? He wouldn't remember the event ever taking place. People have postulated that the General informed him to go back and help, but that would required the Doctor to meet the General to be told in first place, and his clear lack of surprise at the end of Heaven Sent of being on Gallifrey clearly proves that he is aware that is survived... which he simply shouldn't be aware of. So, the point I think charlesuirdhein is trying to make is: 12 shouldn't have been there because there is literally no way 11 could have remembered for 12 to remember, as 12's being there in the first place would wipe 11's memories. If this is case - I see where you're coming from! If the isn't the case... does anyone else agree with me? 3. Where the hell did the idea to freeze Gallifrey come from in the first place. As I said earlier - 11, 10 and War MUST have been remembering their previous incarnations' actions... but where/what is the ball that set all these actions in motion? This is the sort of paradox that doesn't make sense to me - to me, a paradox can only exist whereby a there was an 'original', alternate time line where someone deliberately manipulated events in such a way as to cause a paradox. I can think of no way how this particular paradox could have been created, and as such burns in the fires of Hell alongside The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang in terms of impossible-to-create-in-the-first-place paradoxes! 1. Presumably War, 10 and 11 popped back to tell him and then recruited him to come save Gallifrey. Which presumably they repeated 9 times for all the other Doctors. 2. You have to look at the wording carefully: the reason given for past selves' memory loss is 'the timelines are out of sync'. The Day of the Doctor is primarily in the eleventh Doctor's timeline, with previous selves there courtesy of the Moment. All the other Doctors saving Gallifrey were presumably pulled out from their timelines by the future Doctors, hence they're out of their timelines too. Hence all previous selves are out of sync with their own timelines and once leaving forget what took place there. In their meeting both the Eleventh Doctor and the Curator are in both their respective timelines, they just happen to overlap at that one point. Hence they both remember it. Neither has been taken from their timelines. As for the Twelfth Doctor being there-who knows? Hopefully we get an explanation before Capaldi leaves. 3. They didn't remember from their previous incarnations. Eleven thought of it then, presumably telepathically passed it on to other Doctors via telepathy (hence the Tenth Doctor saying 'I'm getting that too!'). All the previous Doctors then forgot it due to the above. I've answered the point about why 11 didn't forget about saving Gallifrey in reply to another post - he never met 12 so had no amnesia. Later he met the curator and got all excited about going to find Gallifrey but subsequently made no attempts on screen to actually do so. Evidence to me that the curator did induce amnesia and he wasn't convinced afterwards whether he'd been successful or not.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 7:45:40 GMT
And in answer to when did eleven set the calculation going in 1s TARDIS. well I've always assumed that's what was happening at the end of An Adventure in Time and Space.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 5, 2017 9:04:32 GMT
There is nothing that suggest companions forget. But, there is another contradition. The War Doctor forgets because its an Eleventh story. However, at some point Twelve joins the party, before he becomes the Doctor. So why shouldn't The War Doctor remember before he becomes Nine? 12 never actually meets other incarnations in the story though so it's not comparable. Do they have to meet? Doctor One didn't meet any of his future selves.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 5, 2017 9:08:46 GMT
In their meeting both the Eleventh Doctor and the Curator are in both their respective timelines, they just happen to overlap at that one point. Hence they both remember it. Neither has been taken from their timelines. As for the Twelfth Doctor being there-who knows? Hopefully we get an explanation before Capaldi leaves. I'm not aware of The War Doctor or Ten being taken out of their time lines. In fact, its Ten and Eleven interfering with the War Doctors timeline. So, isn't the War Doctor the current incarnation?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 9:23:48 GMT
I'd always just assumed that 9 continues to believe that he, as War, had just used the Moment. And while I write this I'm thinking, suppose he DID use the Moment? The use of which begins from when she first speaks to him rather than his simply pressing a big red button. Argh, tired. The things that bother me are that the Moment states "That's not supposed to happen," and Eleven later says -- "Not now, I'm busy!" which seems to imply that he's aware of something that his other incarnations aren't clued in on. The same is true of his attitude all the way through the story, almost like he's waiting for something. It could be a personal bias, but I like to think that he's ruminating on whether or not he can get away with this. It'd add an extra layer to the "When you/we killed them," discussion in the dungeon. The Eleventh Doctor's got to be really unpopular at later gatherings, saving Gallifrey while giving at least two incarnations before him amnesia and world-crushing guilt that they have to live with throughout their lives. That's "I killed you, so I could live," Sixth to Seventh Doctor tier discourtesy right there. In their meeting both the Eleventh Doctor and the Curator are in both their respective timelines, they just happen to overlap at that one point. Hence they both remember it. Neither has been taken from their timelines. As for the Twelfth Doctor being there-who knows? Hopefully we get an explanation before Capaldi leaves. I'm not aware of The War Doctor or Ten being taken out of their time lines. In fact, its Ten and Eleven interfering with the War Doctors timeline. So, isn't the War Doctor the current incarnation? Eleven and Ten are taken out of their respective timelines and brought into the War, so... I think so? The problem there is that the General refers to "all thirteen" incarnations, which would seem to point to Capaldi's Doctor being the current incarnation. That doesn't make much sense though because he only features in a cameo, hmm... Eugh, I don't think there's been a television story that's poked so many holes in so many timestreams as this one. Even by implication, it's a mess...
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shutupbanks
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 5, 2017 9:43:26 GMT
I'd always just assumed that 9 continues to believe that he, as War, had just used the Moment. And while I write this I'm thinking, suppose he DID use the Moment? The use of which begins from when she first speaks to him rather than his simply pressing a big red button. Argh, tired. The things that bother me are that the Moment states "That's not supposed to happen," and Eleven later says -- "Not now, I'm busy!" which seems to imply that he's aware of something that his other incarnations aren't clued in on. The same is true of his attitude all the way through the story, almost like he's waiting for something. It could be a personal bias, but I like to think that he's ruminating on whether or not he can get away with this. It'd add an extra layer to the "When you/we killed them," discussion in the dungeon. The Eleventh Doctor's got to be really unpopular at later gatherings, saving Gallifrey while giving at least two incarnations before him amnesia and world-crushing guilt that they have to live with throughout their lives. That's "I killed you, so I could live," Sixth to Seventh Doctor tier discourtesy right there. I'm not aware of The War Doctor or Ten being taken out of their time lines. In fact, its Ten and Eleven interfering with the War Doctors timeline. So, isn't the War Doctor the current incarnation? Eleven and Ten are taken out of their respective timelines and brought into the War, so... I think so? The problem there is that the General refers to "all thirteen" incarnations, which would seem to point to Capaldi's Doctor being the current incarnation. That doesn't make much sense though because he only features in a cameo, hmm... Eugh, I don't think there's been a television story that's poked so many holes in so many timestreams as this one. Even by implication, it's a mess... I just assumed that the General and the War Council saw the 12 TARDISes and Capaldi's Doctor turned up just as he was making the comment about there being twelve of them. As to the timeline question, isn't Ten the only one who's still in his timeline? - War and Eleven go to him, after all. It's only when they break the timelock to go back to the barn that it becomes muddled.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 5, 2017 9:43:36 GMT
Yes, two clips of McCoy, being from two stories. And that's the TV dept finding suitable clips rather than 7 appearing twice. If everyone wants to think he appeared twice then they're free to do so. Taking bits of the TV series and assigning them to books? I literally don't know what you are talking about because I have never done that, ever. Er.... you appeared to deny that the 7th Doctor was present twice on the grounds that you don't count the books. I take it that that wasn't what you were driving at, then?
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 5, 2017 9:46:39 GMT
Still doesn't explain how 12 was there, and knew he needed to be there, since as far as 11 knew he, 11, was the last Doctor. Is it possible that the eleventh Doctor didn't spot him? We know that the Time Lords saw thirteen Doctors, but did the Doctors see thirteen Doctors? (Or, indeed, if we're counting no 7 twice, did they see the *same* thirteen Doctors?) In that scenario, the 11th Doctor wouldn't have anything to forget. (Presumably Moffat's saving this for the final series - most probably the final episode).
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 5, 2017 10:12:53 GMT
Still doesn't explain how 12 was there, and knew he needed to be there, since as far as 11 knew he, 11, was the last Doctor. Is it possible that the eleventh Doctor didn't spot him? We know that the Time Lords saw thirteen Doctors, but did the Doctors see thirteen Doctors? (Or, indeed, if we're counting no 7 twice, did they see the *same* thirteen Doctors?) In that scenario, the 11th Doctor wouldn't have anything to forget. (Presumably Moffat's saving this for the final series - most probably the final episode). Of course, many commentators are assuming that Moffat will clean this situation up in his last series. I'm not so sure he will.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2017 10:46:50 GMT
Is it possible that the eleventh Doctor didn't spot him? We know that the Time Lords saw thirteen Doctors, but did the Doctors see thirteen Doctors? (Or, indeed, if we're counting no 7 twice, did they see the *same* thirteen Doctors?) In that scenario, the 11th Doctor wouldn't have anything to forget. (Presumably Moffat's saving this for the final series - most probably the final episode). Of course, many commentators are assuming that Moffat will clean this situation up in his last series. I'm not so sure he will. Yeah, unfortunately that whole thing with the cracks in time and Madam Kovarian points to him pulling a Chris Carter when it comes to story arcs; i.e. the eventual illusion of progress. Maybe he's learnt his lesson from what happened last time or maybe he'll be too burnt out to even attempt such a reconciliation. Personally, history has taught me to lean towards the latter, there's a lot of stuff that turns up making very little sense in his era like "rebooting" the universe from scratch. The logic of a fairy tale (without the grim morality plays), just look at Kill the Moon. I'd like to see someone have a go at tying it all together, I don't think I'd be up for it. It's an era that just doesn't gel for me, which is odd because I love the Steve Parkhouse comics. I just assumed that the General and the War Council saw the 12 TARDISes and Capaldi's Doctor turned up just as he was making the comment about there being twelve of them. As to the timeline question, isn't Ten the only one who's still in his timeline? - War and Eleven go to him, after all. It's only when they break the timelock to go back to the barn that it becomes muddled. That's a good point, so it's mucking about with a Tenth Doctor adventure from the Eleventh Doctor's point-of-view with the War Doctor acting as deuteragonist. Probably.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Mar 5, 2017 11:01:57 GMT
Nope. - The Ninth Doctor couldn't remember what happened (due to how previous Doctors and companions forget what happened during multi-Doctor adventures). There is nothing that suggest companions forget. But, there is another contradition. The War Doctor forgets because its an Eleventh story. However, at some point Twelve joins the party, before he becomes the Doctor. So why shouldn't The War Doctor remember before he becomes Nine? It's 11's timeline, not 12's. The 11th Doctor remembers but the 12th Doctor doesn't remember joining in until it gets to the point he joins in. Then when he has joined in he forgets about his involvement in his current body.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 5, 2017 11:13:33 GMT
In their meeting both the Eleventh Doctor and the Curator are in both their respective timelines, they just happen to overlap at that one point. Hence they both remember it. Neither has been taken from their timelines. As for the Twelfth Doctor being there-who knows? Hopefully we get an explanation before Capaldi leaves. I'm not aware of The War Doctor or Ten being taken out of their time lines. In fact, its Ten and Eleven interfering with the War Doctors timeline. So, isn't the War Doctor the current incarnation? Fair point. I think the best explanation at this point is the Moment is crashing together various timelines (as indicated by the TARDIS glitching-all the Doctors are in their timelines which are crossing over and hence it gets confused). This overlapping of timelines presumably means only the latest one can retain it (note the TARDIS stabilises on Eleven's design, perhaps indicative that the latest timeline is dominant in some way).
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Mar 5, 2017 11:26:39 GMT
The things that bother me are that the Moment states "That's not supposed to happen," and Eleven later says -- "Not now, I'm busy!" which seems to imply that he's aware of something that his other incarnations aren't clued in on. The same is true of his attitude all the way through the story, almost like he's waiting for something. It could be a personal bias, but I like to think that he's ruminating on whether or not he can get away with this. It'd add an extra layer to the "When you/we killed them," discussion in the dungeon. The Eleventh Doctor's got to be really unpopular at later gatherings, saving Gallifrey while giving at least two incarnations before him amnesia and world-crushing guilt that they have to live with throughout their lives. That's "I killed you, so I could live," Sixth to Seventh Doctor tier discourtesy right there. Eleven and Ten are taken out of their respective timelines and brought into the War, so... I think so? The problem there is that the General refers to "all thirteen" incarnations, which would seem to point to Capaldi's Doctor being the current incarnation. That doesn't make much sense though because he only features in a cameo, hmm... Eugh, I don't think there's been a television story that's poked so many holes in so many timestreams as this one. Even by implication, it's a mess... I just assumed that the General and the War Council saw the 12 TARDISes and Capaldi's Doctor turned up just as he was making the comment about there being twelve of them. As to the timeline question, isn't Ten the only one who's still in his timeline? - War and Eleven go to him, after all. It's only when they break the timelock to go back to the barn that it becomes muddled. They go back to 11's timeline too.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 5, 2017 14:01:08 GMT
Go back to the Moment, she's the key, not the Doctor.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Mar 5, 2017 15:55:10 GMT
The story made Bill & Ted look more believable.
How do we escape from this cell, let's go back and hide a key. Just rubbish.
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Post by SG. on Mar 5, 2017 16:43:00 GMT
All this 12 meeting 11 stuff and who remembers what… I can't be the first one to think it doesn't matter, right?
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Post by sherlock on Mar 5, 2017 17:25:55 GMT
All this 12 meeting 11 stuff and who remembers what… I can't be the first one to think it doesn't matter, right? Doesn't matter in the slightest, but it's still fun to theorise
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