mbt66
Chancellery Guard
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Post by mbt66 on May 21, 2017 20:50:14 GMT
Despite obvious love for the range Nick is continually stating on the podcast that the Novel Adaptation range has been cancelled due to lack of sales.
And when he replied to Billie Piper on the last podcast how many sales a typical release gets I did wonder just how low those sales must have been!
So what went wrong? Why such low sales?
I am very surprised if the Gareth Roberts/Fourth Doctor stories sold poorly. I can not conceive that they sold worse than PHP or the FDAs! Or did they?
The rumour is that they are going to give us Comic Strip Adaptations in the future, so what lessons do you think they have learned or will that be another mistaken range!?
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Post by Audio Watchdog on May 21, 2017 21:55:50 GMT
The numbers Nick mentioned in the podcast got my attention as well. If the high end of the scale is 10,000 units and the average end is a few thousand, then I can't imagine how small their margins must really be. To my knowledge this is the first time we have heard anyone from BF talking about actual sales features To your question, I feel like the novel adaptations were largely done in by the added layer of paying a fee to the original writer and what seemed to be larger casts associated with the range. I could of course be totally wrong. It could also be that some sold well but didn't sell enough to cover the losses on the productions that didn't sell well.
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Post by omega on May 21, 2017 22:13:06 GMT
In the last podcast one of the emails had the writer say the lack of appeal for them was how the range didn't go in the order the original novels were published in, suggesting others held this opinion. I didn't find this a problem, as each of the adaptations could easily stand on their own with any connections to other novels and arc within the novels either excised or changed (Torchwood being mentioned in Damaged Goods in place of the Brotherhood from the Psi Powers arc for example).
Besides, Big Finish had to cherry pick the books that would hold most appeal, translate best to audio, not be too adult (I can't imagine the BBC would let a krukking sex scene in something released these days) and simply doable on audio (characters whose actors are no longer with us obviously make some stories unfeasible). While there are people who would happily pay for adaptations of everything, they clearly aren't enough to justify doing so.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on May 21, 2017 22:22:23 GMT
In the last podcast one of the emails had the writer say the lack of appeal for them was how the range didn't go in the order the original novels were published in, suggesting others held this opinion. I didn't find this a problem, as each of the adaptations could easily stand on their own with any connections to other novels and arc within the novels either excised or changed (Torchwood being mentioned in Damaged Goods in place of the Brotherhood from the Psi Powers arc for example). Besides, Big Finish had to cherry pick the books that would hold most appeal, translate best to audio, not be too adult (I can't imagine the BBC would let a krukking sex scene in something released these days) and simply doable on audio (characters whose actors are no longer with us obviously make some stories unfeasible). While there are people who would happily pay for adaptations of everything, they clearly aren't enough to justify doing so. Yeah, Nick didn't think too much of that reason for why they didn't sell as well as they could have either. Again, that few thousand number for the average release really stands out. If that is your baseline for new Doctor Who audios, then how many people do you lose from that number for adaptations of material from another medium? The other thing I would factor in is how many people jumped ship because of the deluxe packaging editions. Yes there were bare bones/vanilla options but the kind of fan that is seeking out that kind of product is generally the kind of fan who wants all the goodies and probably wants them in a physical package.
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Post by omega on May 21, 2017 22:59:59 GMT
In the last podcast one of the emails had the writer say the lack of appeal for them was how the range didn't go in the order the original novels were published in, suggesting others held this opinion. I didn't find this a problem, as each of the adaptations could easily stand on their own with any connections to other novels and arc within the novels either excised or changed (Torchwood being mentioned in Damaged Goods in place of the Brotherhood from the Psi Powers arc for example). Besides, Big Finish had to cherry pick the books that would hold most appeal, translate best to audio, not be too adult (I can't imagine the BBC would let a krukking sex scene in something released these days) and simply doable on audio (characters whose actors are no longer with us obviously make some stories unfeasible). While there are people who would happily pay for adaptations of everything, they clearly aren't enough to justify doing so. Yeah, Nick didn't think too much of that reason for why they didn't sell as well as they could have either. Again, that few thousand number for the average release really stands out. If that is your baseline for new Doctor Who audios, then how many people do you lose from that number for adaptations of material from another medium? The other thing I would factor in is how many people jumped ship because of the deluxe packaging editions. Yes there were bare bones/vanilla options but the kind of fan that is seeking out that kind of product is generally the kind of fan who wants all the goodies and probably wants them in a physical package. The packaging is a good point. One one hand you've got people who couldn't afford the lovely deluxe packaging, and on the other hand you've got the listeners who take great interest in how their collections look when on the shelf. I've seen people express frustration when the packaging changes and doesn't fit with what they are used to. Either way, it's not ideal for the budget conscious. Another thing with the deluxe sets is that someone may be interested in one story and the extras but not the other story, and don't want to spend lots of money just to get the one story and the extras. Again, I've seen people express annoyance that a couple of the big book sets (Worlds of Doctor Who and The Sixth Doctor: The Last Adventure) aren't also available in cheaper packaging or as individual release.
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Post by Bazoolium on May 21, 2017 23:18:06 GMT
I bet there is a huge gap in purchases between Damaged and Goods and any of the others. That's the only one I bought (and is amazing).
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Post by charlesuirdhein on May 22, 2017 0:01:24 GMT
I bought them all. I liked most. They were completely unnecessary and didn't add anything. And all the realistic problems are listed above, so they were never going to be able to "do them in order", so with that in mind I was baffled that they didn't attempt to slot them into their OWN canon as it were, rather than leaving them adrift. There may be no canon but we still like things to fit together, and flitting between books and audio, especially books that are mostly unavailable, wasn't a good idea. (Nor was it a good idea when BF did it themselves with Benny.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 1:23:27 GMT
Broke my cardinal rule about never getting anything in a preorder subscription and bought them. The standard four-part format definitely hurt some stories more than others, All-Consuming Fire is one of those tales which felt like all of its constituent parts were crammed into a package that was two sizes too small. And I'll say it again, serious props to Guy Adams for trying, it's a really difficult story to adapt for audio. Props to all the adapting authors for your efforts. I think what people were expecting was that with the release of Love and War, Big Finish would be trying to explore the region between Transit and Set Piece with Ace and Benny. I know that the appearance of Chris and Roz for Damaged Goods was a really nice surprise. However, I really think it was a lack of touchstone stories as jumping-on points in those first couple series that alienated people. Adapting Original Sin very shortly after Damaged Goods was a very smart idea, but I think something similar for familiar companions would have been a good idea as well. Ace goes away, sure. But what about Deceit, where she comes back? Can't do the alternate universe arc because of problems with the Brigadier and Liz Shaw? There are stories on either side that can be done as well. One of the most attractive for newcomers I thought would have been Gary Russell's Legacy. The allure of a Peladon story -- put a brief sale on The Bride of Peladon for its release to remind audiences that it's been done before by BF and very well indeed -- that involves the Doctor being beheaded by the Ice Warriors. Besides, Big Finish had to cherry pick the books that would hold most appeal, translate best to audio, not be too adult (I can't imagine the BBC would let a krukking sex scene in something released these days) and simply doable on audio (characters whose actors are no longer with us obviously make some stories unfeasible). I imagine some of the more adult content would be cut for time anyway. It's not as if sex scenes were plot-dependent. On the other hand, if you can go with rotting baby avatar ripped straight from the page and put in the audio for Love and War, you can get away with quite a lot. Big Finish has had stories like Creatures of Beauty (including a battered Nyssa, self-mutilation and sadistic policemen), so something like Falls the Shadow (which involves so much worse for Ace and Benny) certainly wouldn't have been off the cards.
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Post by omega on May 22, 2017 2:13:02 GMT
Besides, Big Finish had to cherry pick the books that would hold most appeal, translate best to audio, not be too adult (I can't imagine the BBC would let a krukking sex scene in something released these days) and simply doable on audio (characters whose actors are no longer with us obviously make some stories unfeasible). I imagine some of the more adult content would be cut for time anyway. It's not as if sex scenes were plot-dependent. On the other hand, if you can go with rotting baby avatar ripped straight from the page and put in the audio for Love and War, you can get away with quite a lot. Big Finish has had stories like Creatures of Beauty (including a battered Nyssa, self-mutilation and sadistic policemen), so something like Falls the Shadow (which involves so much worse for Ace and Benny) certainly wouldn't have been off the cards. Creatures of Beauty was before the New Series, and the BBC weren't so attentive to what Big Finish were releasing. A significant aspect of C'rizz's character was mentally unsettling. LIVE 34 is incredibly grim. Many things about the Divergent Universe weren't comfortable, Scherzo for example. It's been commented on before, and more recent releases are less edgy and gritter than what happened before Nick Briggs became executive producer. Torchwood is another kettle of fishpeople, as that's always been targeted at a mature audience.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 2:34:24 GMT
I imagine some of the more adult content would be cut for time anyway. It's not as if sex scenes were plot-dependent. On the other hand, if you can go with rotting baby avatar ripped straight from the page and put in the audio for Love and War, you can get away with quite a lot. Big Finish has had stories like Creatures of Beauty (including a battered Nyssa, self-mutilation and sadistic policemen), so something like Falls the Shadow (which involves so much worse for Ace and Benny) certainly wouldn't have been off the cards. Creatures of Beauty was before the New Series, and the BBC weren't so attentive to what Big Finish were releasing. A significant aspect of C'rizz's character was mentally unsettling. LIVE 34 is incredibly grim. Many things about the Divergent Universe weren't comfortable, Scherzo for example. It's been commented on before, and more recent releases are less edgy and gritter than what happened before Nick Briggs became executive producer. Torchwood is another kettle of fishpeople, as that's always been targeted at a mature audience. "Another kettle of fishpeople." That's marvellous. You're right, it's gotten a great deal softer in recent years. I wonder if they could just get away with implying most of it? Raise certain questions and refrain from giving the audience definitive answers? They managed to get away with the massacre in the bar for Cold Fusion doing that.
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Post by Ela on May 22, 2017 5:17:13 GMT
I have to admit I didn't really get the objection about the novel adaptations not going in order. I listened to them. I didn't listen to them in the order in which the original novels were published. I think each of the stories can stand on its own.
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Post by pawntake on May 22, 2017 5:39:15 GMT
2017 3:23:27 GMT 2 wolfie53 said: Broke my cardinal rule about never getting anything in a preorder subscription and bought them. The standard four-part format definitely hurt some stories more than others, All-Consuming Fire is one of those tales which felt like all of its constituent parts were crammed into a package that was two sizes too small
You are sooo right!! You have summed up this release perfectly and I suspect your analysis might well apply to a lot of the others.Anyone listening to this without reading the book would be totally confused.(the Acting and sound design though were of course up to the usual high standard)
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,849
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Post by aztec on May 22, 2017 8:55:56 GMT
I haven't read any of the Virgin novels, nor am I very familiar with the 7th Doctor, but I bought (and thoroughly enjoyed) Love And War and Cold Fusion and I plan on picking up the other adaptations eventually, but I was hesitant to even get those two stories (and I largely did only because I wanted to hear Benny's introduction and a rare multi Doctor story) as I was worried about the continuity/random order of releases (wasn't sure if they would be aimed at NA fans or all listeners and I'd rather not have to fork out/track down a bunch of out of print NA novels to get the references/backstory to an audio) and I don't have any nostalgia for the 7th Doctor or wilderness years in general...ironically having listened to the two listed above I think I'd actually be more likely to buy more stand alone adaptations than say a run of Main Range trilogies.
Although almost all of the BF stories I've bought have been on sales or pre-order price (very limited funds) I remain rather surprised that they sold the Novel Adaptations for the same price as a standard MR story, it was only ever going to be a range that appealed to a smaller number of listeners and with the larger casts and authors rights to pay for perhaps it would have made sense to raise the price to £19.99 add an extra episode or two (or perhaps more behind the scenes stuff) and market the stories as a special release range.
On the other hand, had the Novel Adaptations been the BBC EDA's I would have certainly bought the lot as I adore that run of novels, and McGann is my Doctor...and if the novel adaptations had been £5 a CD I would have bought the lot by now (though that would apply to most of the ranges as well...)
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Post by lidar on May 22, 2017 10:48:03 GMT
I imagine for those who were around in the 1990s and bought the Virgin books, they were a must-buy for the sake of nostalgia, provided of course one liked the books in the first place! Without that nostalgia appeal then they were just a lot of standalones that didn't fit too well into the rest of the TV/audio canon and, rightly or wrongly, if something doesn't fit in it puts some people off buying however good it might actually be. That is the nature of many fans - there are things I haven't bought for that very reason. The way around this was to do all the novels in order but, for reasons other have stated, that was never a practical option.
I must admit however, that if the novel adaptations didn't sell well enough then I find it hard to imagine the comic adaptations selling any better.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on May 22, 2017 11:37:45 GMT
I didn't mind them not being done in order. I think the problem was the way they were released. with two or three being released In the same month. The only time it work were with Death/Romance. Apart from that the releases should have been more spread out. I did do a mini chart of how it should be done but I cant find the bit of paper I wrote it down on lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 13:04:50 GMT
I imagine for those who were around in the 1990s and bought the Virgin books, they were a must-buy for the sake of nostalgia, provided of course one liked the books in the first place! Without that nostalgia appeal then they were just a lot of standalones that didn't fit too well into the rest of the TV/audio canon and, rightly or wrongly, if something doesn't fit in it puts some people off buying however good it might actually be. That is the nature of many fans - there are things I haven't bought for that very reason. The way around this was to do all the novels in order but, for reasons other have stated, that was never a practical option. Even with a nostalgia, I think there would have been an element of adaptation anxiety accompanying it too. People worried that it wouldn't measure up to their memories of the books. I got into the range pretty late, so I don't really have much nostalgia for them, but I was a bit concerned when I saw the runtimes for some of them. Still bought them, natch. I really do think that the lack of Deceit (the book, not the-- Oh, never mind) intimidated people looking at buying Theatre/ Fire because of the continuity gaps. It was less obvious with Chris and Roz's stories because without any foreknowledge you'd assume that Benny alone was just after Love and War. Mind you... Happy Endings (hurrah and farewell Benny) was always going to be absolutely impossible to do. There's a thought... Had this been long term, could subscribers have been given PDF copies of the original novel as bonuses, while regular purchasers gets a linking book instead? Kind of like what was done with The Three Companions, on each new stand-alone release with Ace/Benny, a book from the Alternate Universe arc. Five releases, five books. On the other hand, had the Novel Adaptations been the BBC EDA's I would have certainly bought the lot as I adore that run of novels, and McGann is my Doctor...and if the novel adaptations had been £5 a CD I would have bought the lot by now (though that would apply to most of the ranges as well...) Funny really given how some of the BBC novels were written almost as television scripts. If it weren't for the passing of dear Russell Hunter, I'd have been very surprised if something like Corpse Marker had never received an adaptation. Was there ever an official reason given why the Virgin range was selected over any BBC distributed stories?
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Post by sherlock on May 22, 2017 13:16:11 GMT
On the other hand, had the Novel Adaptations been the BBC EDA's I would have certainly bought the lot as I adore that run of novels, and McGann is my Doctor...and if the novel adaptations had been £5 a CD I would have bought the lot by now (though that would apply to most of the ranges as well...) Funny really given how some of the BBC novels were written almost as television scripts. If it weren't for the passing of dear Russell Hunter, I'd have been very surprised if something like Corpse Marker had never received an adaptation. Was there ever an official reason given why the Virgin range was selected over any BBC distributed stories? Given that the BBC has started doing audio readings of its old books, it might be the BBC wouldn't allow Big Finish to adapt BBC books to avoid conflict. I suspect the adaptations simply cost more than standard Big Finish productions to make (rights to original authors being one such cost not encountered by standard releases) and thus slightly less sales than standard productions (due to the fact they are slightly more niche in audience than other Big Finishes) probably ate into its profitability.
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Post by muckypup on May 22, 2017 14:19:15 GMT
From my point of view.....the simple reason is.....they weren't that great
Not sure they choose the best titles, or do not translate that well into audio.
Out of the 11 titles (there was 11??) only 3 were, real landmark stories, the rest were no better or not quite as good as BF original stories.
Also the stories I really would have liked to have been adapted (like lungbarrow which was brought up in the latest podcast) weren't.
As much as I did enjoy the range, I would rather have new tales.
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Post by jasonward on May 22, 2017 14:24:43 GMT
I liked the adaptations, but they had 2 problems for me:
1) They should not have watered them down, I know the BBC would be unlikely to approve some stuff, but in the main part of what made these stories great stories was the dark content. 2) BF should have looked to integrate the stories into their continuity, listening to these stories felt jarring as they contradicted things "I know" to be true (talking only as a well listened BF customer).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2017 14:41:18 GMT
From my point of view.....the simple reason is.....they weren't that great As much as I did enjoy the range, I would rather have new tales. Yep, I agree. I didn't think much of the novel adaptations that I have heard. A couple were good, Love & War especially, but for me the rest were average fare. I'd always prefer new stories to old stories anyway.
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