Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 22:36:03 GMT
Ummm, not really. No-one can really rebut some very subjective opinions and I recognise more than a few of the complaints on the thread as 100% valid and....they just didn't bother me. I'd criticise having another "love saves the day" ending but I just bought into it here so much more than, say, Closing Time. If they use memory to opress then using the same ideas to liberate...I thought it was a great idea. As for the Monks powers, they weren't fallible at all untill their mechanism was toppled. The Doctor even has that line about what dicators do when they know they've lost. We kinda had to see them weak after the resolution for his point to stand. They bully an intimidate and if they can't, they run away. Missy even said as much early on. It was seeded pretty well.
If you're going to be a bit (OK, more than a bit) derivative then at least entertain me. It just......did. The performances, the visuals,the direction; they were all just top notch this week. I'm so digging ALL of Series 10.
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Post by stcoop on Jun 3, 2017 22:46:34 GMT
Part of my problem, beyond yet another "lurve saves the day" ending is that two out of the last three episodes basically didn't happen!
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Post by muckypup on Jun 3, 2017 22:51:03 GMT
Ummm, not really. No-one can really rebut some very subjective opinions and I recognise more than a few of the complaints on the thread as 100% valid and....they just didn't bother me. I'd criticise having another "love saves the day" ending but I just bought into it here so much more than, say, Closing Time. If they use memory to opress then using the same ideas to liberate...I thought it was a great idea. As for the Monks powers, they weren't fallible at all untill their mechanism was toppled. The Doctor even has that line about what dicators do when they know they've lost. We kinda had to see them weak after the resolution for his point to stand. They bully an intimidate and if they can't, they run away. Missy even said as much early on. It was seeded pretty well. If you're going to be a bit (OK, more than a bit) derivative then at least entertain me. It just......did. The performances, the visuals,the direction; they were all just top notch this week. I'm so digging ALL of Series 10. Are you ill buddy.....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 22:54:37 GMT
Ummm, not really. No-one can really rebut some very subjective opinions and I recognise more than a few of the complaints on the thread as 100% valid and....they just didn't bother me. I'd criticise having another "love saves the day" ending but I just bought into it here so much more than, say, Closing Time. If they use memory to opress then using the same ideas to liberate...I thought it was a great idea. As for the Monks powers, they weren't fallible at all untill their mechanism was toppled. The Doctor even has that line about what dicators do when they know they've lost. We kinda had to see them weak after the resolution for his point to stand. They bully an intimidate and if they can't, they run away. Missy even said as much early on. It was seeded pretty well. If you're going to be a bit (OK, more than a bit) derivative then at least entertain me. It just......did. The performances, the visuals,the direction; they were all just top notch this week. I'm so digging ALL of Series 10. Are you ill buddy..... Well, call me whatever - but since I seem to enjoy the hour a week I spend watching the show....I'd say I'm using it better than some, Pup.
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melkur
Chancellery Guard
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Post by melkur on Jun 3, 2017 23:02:51 GMT
A decent enough episode for me (which I'm planning on watching again with the other two episodes of the set tomorrow).
Did it need to be a three-parter? Maybe, maybe not. Am I happy there was a three-parter this year? Yes, yes I am...
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Post by muckypup on Jun 3, 2017 23:08:28 GMT
Are you ill buddy..... Well, call me whatever - but since I seem to enjoy the hour a week I spend watching the show....I'd say I'm using it better than some, Pup. I enjoyed watching BGT finals......so I think I am ill
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 3, 2017 23:12:22 GMT
Ummm, not really. No-one can really rebut some very subjective opinions and I recognise more than a few of the complaints on the thread as 100% valid and....they just didn't bother me. I'd criticise having another "love saves the day" ending but I just bought into it here so much more than, say, Closing Time. If they use memory to opress then using the same ideas to liberate...I thought it was a great idea. As for the Monks powers, they weren't fallible at all untill their mechanism was toppled. The Doctor even has that line about what dicators do when they know they've lost. We kinda had to see them weak after the resolution for his point to stand. They bully an intimidate and if they can't, they run away. Missy even said as much early on. It was seeded pretty well. If you're going to be a bit (OK, more than a bit) derivative then at least entertain me. It just......did. The performances, the visuals,the direction; they were all just top notch this week. I'm so digging ALL of Series 10. Agreed: I really enjoyed it despite it feeling as though ten minutes had been hacked out of it somewhere. The opening ten minutes were fantastic, Bill confronting the Doctor was brilliantly played and the setup for the ending was great. I loved the Monks' control room: it gave me a bit of a classic series vibe as did the contest of wills/ memories between the Doctor/ Bill and the Monk. The idea of the messages being played while the team storm the pyramid was terrific especially when played over the action scene. Missy's redemption/ do-over is winning me over slowly the more I think about, so long as she doesn't become a lovable rogue like Spike in BtVS with her history glossed over until it becomes convenient for the plot.
What I didn't enjoy: the reset at the end; the feeling of the story being rushed after the leisurely pacing of the previous two episodes; "Bill's Mum is going viral" (the line, not the scene) felt cheesy and commentary-like, as did 12 talking over the conflict. But my biggest complaint: If Nardole had the TARDIS, why the need for the raid on the pyramid or, even, for the whole six months at all?
Probably the weakest episode of the series so far but still watchable and providing food for thought: the whole "fake news central" will date very quickly (I hope) but it felt timely, as did the conflict of real events over manufactured history, but I did think the cliffhanger from last week was glossed over as were the reasons for how the Doctor is working for the Monks - I don't mind being dumped in media res but I want a reasonable payoff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 3:04:25 GMT
A bit derivative of other tales, but an otherwise enjoyable conspiracy thriller. It seems to be a knack of the BBC, they always manage to do really, really good dystopias brimming with mempol and thoughtcrime. The moments of comedy were a bit out of place though, something I honestly think was put in during script editing afterwards. The severe atmosphere is very well-executed. Gomez's incarnation is perfect here, the madness dripping away inch-by-inch in a very subdued performance. Her remorse and desire to befriend the Doctor seem to have legs, but I'd like to know where exactly all of this has come from. It kind of feeds into the idea posited way back in Adventuress of Henrietta Street that if the Doctor ever turned evil, the Master would have been there to champion the good. Both are functionaries of differing moralities and the slide from one to the other is a lot easier than either really thinks. Was it worth three episodes build up? No, and unfortunately it draws comparisons to Last of the Time Lords which did this whole dance a great deal better as a stealth six-parter (ala The Seeds of Doom). Does it stand up on its own though? Yes, actually. Like the three-parter before it, you can rip out the beginning or the end and not miss very much in between. Shame that there wasn't time invested in developing the Monks beyond "adversary that needs to be fought". Half-Life 2 succeeded in having a virtually unknown alien oppressor with a human spokesperson precisely because we didn't know what they wanted or how far their reach extended from their Overworld. Had the Monks been truly alien and the focus been on how these kinds of regimes promote very human cruelties from very human people, viewers may not have looked quite as hard. Actually, speaking of expanded detail, a lot of these stories have felt as though there are ten minutes or so missing from them to really make them perfect. The Lie of the Land feels almost like a condensed omnibus version of a four-parter with twenty minutes or so ending up on the cutting room floor. It's episodes like these that make me regret the new series not having a Target range novelising them like they used to. If The Curse of Fenric's book counterpart can document the Doctor and Fenric's first encounter, the flask's journey through Constantinople and the source of Judson's disability, just imagine what could be done here. Pyramid at the End of the World could easily have been ripped out and replaced with more of the City 17/Oceania antics. Maybe even building up the Doctor's role as the Breen-like collaborator in this capacity. Bottom line: Was it a good episode? Well, I'm asking for more, so yes. I like to think so.
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Post by elkawho on Jun 4, 2017 3:50:22 GMT
Far be it from me to be a dissenting voice but I loved just about every minute of it. The Doctor's Equilibrium-like broadcasts, Pearl's entire performance, Matt Lucas' delivery, the Monks being genuinelly creepy and Michelle Gomez bringing some warmth (!) to The Master. Just adored it. Sure...shades of many other eps especially The Wedding Of River Song but I couldn't care less. I had a really great time with it. REALLY great. Thank God! I thought it was only me. I loved everything about it as well. Especially Pearl. She was amazing in this one. I really love Nardole at this point as well. I get the feeling that Missy is going to HATE the fact that she's becoming soft and regretful. Maybe she will even force a regeneration into a "previous face" just to get some of the old ruthlessness back.
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Post by relativetime on Jun 4, 2017 4:15:20 GMT
It was a pretty decent episode episode. It's the weakest episode of the series so far, but I wouldn't say it's bad - just not as good as the episodes before it. I really would have liked to have had the rest of the episode play out a lot more like the first 14 minutes or so, I think, with the Doctor's scheme working in the background rather than the foreground. The Doctor betraying Bill was just too strong a moment to throw away like that. There was also some dialogue that felt really clunky in places, too.
Still, as I said before, I didn't think it was all that bad. The first 14 minutes were really rather solid, if a bit fast-paced, and the regulars just continue to shine. Pearl Mackie makes this episode worth it I think. Peter Capaldi could just read a phonebook for an entire episode and I'd still like it. I was sold on the ending just based solely on their performances alone. In fact, while the ending was rather quick, I think it was actually my favorite part of the episode.
So, yeah, I think Toby Whithouse can and has written better. This also didn't really compare to the quality of the two episodes before it, sadly. But, all in all, I think it was just fine. Comparing it to Warriors of the Deep is taking things a bit too far, I think.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 5:05:55 GMT
Comparing it to Warriors of the Deep is taking things a bit too far, I think. I have to agree, the similarities there seem to begin and end with both stories taking ideas from contemporary fears. Warriors was about if a third party ignited the Cold War, Lie seems to be about capitulating to fascism and media manipulation. How they both deal with those topics varies quite a bit. I reckon Cold War manages to be a lot closer to Warriors of the Deep, just with a happier ending.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jun 4, 2017 8:21:54 GMT
Decent episode which had a tense start, but i found the Doctor was again sidelined in his own show during the conclusion, surely his love for Susan & his many companions would've worked better in saving mankind especially as he's lived a lot longer than Bill, but no we get another companion saves the world ending, nothing against Pearl who as Bill has been a breath of fresh air this season but i want the Doctor to take centre stage during the shows climax it's called Doctor Who not Bill Potts.
And the Monks just leaving Earth without a fight i thought was baffling, these episode gripes are annoying as for the most part i was enjoying this trilogy.
I'd rate it a 6/10
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 9:56:29 GMT
Viewing Figures For This One = 3.01m Need I say anymore?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 4, 2017 10:52:58 GMT
We still know precisely nothing about the Monks, and after building them up for 2 whole episodes they did nothing of note. . I'm glad. It's nice to have a mysterious monster for a change.
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Post by sherlock on Jun 4, 2017 12:01:10 GMT
We still know precisely nothing about the Monks, and after building them up for 2 whole episodes they did nothing of note. . I'm glad. It's nice to have a mysterious monster for a change. Fair enough. I just found it frustrating that they were the central focus of three entire episodes and we still don't even know why they bothered invading in the first place. Did they just do it for the sake of it? Also they were portrayed as virtually all powerful at various stages, able to fix the Doctor's eyesight (which Gallifreyan technology seemingly couldn't) from the other side of the world and to make a simulation of thousands of years of human history, so them putting up virtually no resistance (aside from one fight) made no sense. They didn't even bother to keep that much of an eye on the Doctor, given he was somehow able to un-brainwash his entire set of guards.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 4, 2017 12:05:08 GMT
I'm glad. It's nice to have a mysterious monster for a change. Fair enough. I just found it frustrating that they were the central focus of three entire episodes and we still don't even know why they bothered invading in the first place. Did they just do it for the sake of it? Also they were portrayed as virtually all powerful at various stages, able to fix the Doctor's eyesight (which Gallifreyan technology seemingly couldn't) from the other side of the world and to make a simulation of thousands of years of human history, so them putting up virtually no resistance (aside from one fight) made no sense. They didn't even bother to keep that much of an eye on the Doctor, given he was somehow able to un-brainwash his entire set of guards. I believe they explained it as a false sense of power. People think there are more Monks than there are because they strategically have the same twelve monks situated in public so it seems as though they are everywhere.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 4, 2017 12:14:51 GMT
I think mysterious is the wrong word for the monks. It implies that there is a greater truth that exists, but of which the audience is unaware. I don't think that's the case. There is nothing there behind the curtain. Ugh. Just an incoherent boring mess. Why did they need the Doctor? They built a VR earth. Shouldn't be too hard to spoof up a TV studio. They didn't even bother to keep that much of an eye on the Doctor, given he was somehow able to un-brainwash his entire set of guards. I was thinking the same thing, but with regard to Bill. If she's truly the lynchpin, why aren't they watching her more closely?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 12:47:56 GMT
Why did they need the Doctor? They built a VR earth. Shouldn't be too hard to spoof up a TV studio. They didn't even bother to keep that much of an eye on the Doctor, given he was somehow able to un-brainwash his entire set of guards. I was thinking the same thing, but with regard to Bill. If she's truly the lynchpin, why aren't they watching her more closely? Oh... Oh, here's a thought. What if these three episodes had all been the Monks observing obstacles that stood in their way if they invaded the Earth? Phases 1, 2 and 3: Reconnosaince, First Contact and Subjugation. We find out that the titular Lie of the Land is that they now know every possible paradigm. Bill has shown them their greatest weakness and their most likely method of defeat and the episode closes out with them totally obliterating the simulation. The Android Invasion-style. Up in a firestorm while the invasion plan goes ahead. There's nothing to stop them now.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 4, 2017 12:53:48 GMT
Why did they need the Doctor? They built a VR earth. Shouldn't be too hard to spoof up a TV studio. I was thinking the same thing, but with regard to Bill. If she's truly the lynchpin, why aren't they watching her more closely? Oh... Oh, here's a thought. What if these three episodes had all been the Monks observing obstacles that stood in their way if they invaded the Earth? Phases 1, 2 and 3: Reconnosaince, First Contact and Subjugation. We find out that the titular Lie of the Land is that they now know every possible paradigm. Bill has shown them their greatest weakness and their most likely method of defeat and the episode closes out with them totally obliterating the simulation. The Android Invasion-style. Up in a firestorm while the invasion plan goes ahead. There's nothing to stop them now. Believe me, after watching these three episodes, I would welcome an alien invasion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 12:58:03 GMT
Oh... Oh, here's a thought. What if these three episodes had all been the Monks observing obstacles that stood in their way if they invaded the Earth? Phases 1, 2 and 3: Reconnosaince, First Contact and Subjugation. We find out that the titular Lie of the Land is that they now know every possible paradigm. Bill has shown them their greatest weakness and their most likely method of defeat and the episode closes out with them totally obliterating the simulation. The Android Invasion-style. Up in a firestorm while the invasion plan goes ahead. There's nothing to stop them now. Believe me, after watching these three episodes, I would welcome an alien invasion. Yeah, the holodeck idea struggles a bit. Having a motiveless adversary didn't help. I think these episodes would have worked a lot better as a three-parter if we'd had solid villains and if we're going to spend three episodes on them they need to be solid. They feel almost like an attempt to do something like the Mysterons or the aliens from UFO.
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