|
Post by mrperson on Jun 5, 2017 14:03:35 GMT
And another major fault is that most of the action already happened between episodes. The Doctor was captured, figured everything out, un-hypnotized his guards. Meanwhile Nardole set up his clever test for Bill.
So the bulk of the episode was basically the audience being told what already happened in the past. Then it's time for a rather incoherent hasty ending: crying with Missy for a while (!!!), fake a regeneration (because...what? Why? What was there any point in-show, or was it just to maybe surprise the audience?), and emote love at a transmitter until the once near-Godly now-Oz-like beings scarper.
|
|
|
Post by whiskeybrewer on Jun 5, 2017 14:06:58 GMT
I reckon because the Doctor used up some more regeneration energy. The next Doctor Will be a Midget
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jun 5, 2017 14:18:35 GMT
fake a regeneration (because...what? Why? What was there any point in-show, or was it just to maybe surprise the audience?), Absolutely no in-show reason for it. Bill doesn't know he can regenerate, unless he told her off-screen, and as the ruse was purely for her there's no reason for him to bother. Real world reason it was there? Trailer bait, probably.
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 5, 2017 15:05:59 GMT
I believe they explained it as a false sense of power. People think there are more Monks than there are because they strategically have the same twelve monks situated in public so it seems as though they are everywhere. How is magically fixing the Doctor's eyesight with a wave of a finger, when nothing else in the universe could (or maybe it could he inexplicably became stupid for a couple episodes so he didn't think of it), a "false sense of power"? How is being able to design AIs that are self-aware a "false sense of power"? How is having the energy to run them in a simulation until all scenarios are conceived a "false sense of power"? It's not that there was a Wizard of Oz situation going on from the start. The monks were presented as nearly all-powerful for two episodes. They did things requiring that power. The writer(s) couldn't stick a landing with them still being all-powerful in the third, so, they were simply weak, ineffective, and apparently not paying attention (to what they ALREADY supposedly simulated) for the third episode. There's no consistent reason for it. They changed because the plot wouldn't work otherwise, not for any logical reason. Fixing the Doctor's eyesight suggests they can do more than they can. A simulation suggests that they already know how to invade the planet. This means that we're lead to believing the Monks are much more powerful than they are. It is the lie...of the land.
|
|
|
Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 5, 2017 15:22:02 GMT
One thing I'd have done differently would have been: Bill: so why put up with us? Doctor: Because ... out of the seven billion humans ... every so often there's an Ian Chesterton, or a Rose Tyler or a Sarah Jane Smith or ... *genuinely warm smile* a Bill Potts. Just drop a few names of old companions. It never used to happen that after only a few episodes, the new companion is suddenly the greatest thing every. They used to be just....companions. Moffat keeps doing this and it bugs me to no end. Why does he feel he needs the Doctor to announce to the audience, a few episodes in, that the new companion is the best? At least this instance was under-played rather than all grandiose. Made it feel more real and sincere. Less "functionally and emotionally you are literally the centre of the universe and so very very important" and more "I really care about you friend".
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jun 5, 2017 15:29:56 GMT
How is magically fixing the Doctor's eyesight with a wave of a finger, when nothing else in the universe could (or maybe it could he inexplicably became stupid for a couple episodes so he didn't think of it), a "false sense of power"? How is being able to design AIs that are self-aware a "false sense of power"? How is having the energy to run them in a simulation until all scenarios are conceived a "false sense of power"? It's not that there was a Wizard of Oz situation going on from the start. The monks were presented as nearly all-powerful for two episodes. They did things requiring that power. The writer(s) couldn't stick a landing with them still being all-powerful in the third, so, they were simply weak, ineffective, and apparently not paying attention (to what they ALREADY supposedly simulated) for the third episode. There's no consistent reason for it. They changed because the plot wouldn't work otherwise, not for any logical reason. Fixing the Doctor's eyesight suggests they can do more than they can. A simulation suggests that they already know how to invade the planet. This means that we're lead to believing the Monks are much more powerful than they are. It is the lie...of the land. But their power isn't suggested in Extremis and The Pyramid at the End of the World, it's literally demonstrated. They literally fixed the Doctor's eyesight, which Gallifreyan technology could not and furthermore did it whilst he was on the other side of the planet. That's not a suggestion of power, that's literal power. Also we saw their power in easily dealing with the military, including lifting a submarine out of the ocean hundreds of miles away. They are able to predict the end of the world, so accurately they can countdown to it. They are able to create a computer system so sophisticated it can replicate thousands of years of human history, including the properties of the Doctor's TARDIS. Then in The Lie of the Land they are able to broadcast brainwaves across the entire planet. These are not suggestions of power-they are literal demonstrations of power. But then in The Lie of the Land they put up resistance in one firefight and don't even properly monitor the Doctor, who they knew was a major threat, or Bill, who was crucial to their occupation of Earth. It just doesn't make sense.
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 5, 2017 15:32:27 GMT
Fixing the Doctor's eyesight suggests they can do more than they can. A simulation suggests that they already know how to invade the planet. This means that we're lead to believing the Monks are much more powerful than they are. It is the lie...of the land. But their power isn't suggested in Extremis and The Pyramid at the End of the World, it's literally demonstrated. They literally fixed the Doctor's eyesight, which Gallifreyan technology could not and furthermore did it whilst he was on the other side of the planet. That's not a suggestion of power, that's literal power. Also we saw their power in easily dealing with the military, including lifting a submarine out of the ocean hundreds of miles away. They are able to predict the end of the world, so accurately they can countdown to it. They are able to create a computer system so sophisticated it can replicate thousands of years of human history, including the properties of the Doctor's TARDIS. Then in The Lie of the Land they are able to broadcast brainwaves across the entire planet. These are not suggestions of power-they are literal demonstrations of power. But then in The Lie of the Land they put up resistance in one firefight and don't even properly monitor the Doctor, who they knew was a major threat. It just doesn't make sense. They didn't need to. The population assumed power.
|
|
|
Post by J.A. Prentice on Jun 6, 2017 2:20:30 GMT
This episode started brilliantly, but then failed to deliver. It kept trying to seem bold and high stakes, then taking the easy way out. I really wish that it had been stronger, because I loved Extremis and thought Pyramid At the End of the World was good set up. Does it seem to anyone else like these were three different episodes that got stitched together in rewrites? The Monks seemed to have a different MO in each one. In Extremis, they used the simulations to cleverly plot the best moment to strike. In Pyramid, they were insanely powerful (pulling the missiles and planes out of the air and restoring the Doctor's eyes) but needed consent and love to invade. In Lie, they used fake history and mind control to subdue the population. It feels like three different monsters fused into one. My Doctor Who Discussion for this episode.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2017 3:10:28 GMT
Does it seem to anyone else like these were three different episodes that got stitched together in rewrites? The Monks seemed to have a different MO in each one. In Extremis, they used the simulations to cleverly plot the best moment to strike. In Pyramid, they were insanely powerful (pulling the missiles and planes out of the air and restoring the Doctor's eyes) but needed consent and love to invade. In Lie, they used fake history and mind control to subdue the population. It feels like three different monsters fused into one. My Doctor Who Discussion for this episode. Yep. I like them all as standalone stories and I think they should be treated as such, but as an arc? No... No, I don't think it works at all. There's no consistency, nothing is really carried over from one episode to the next beyond the broadest of strokes. The simulation thread was dropped (why wouldn't the Doctor go and check to see if there was a Veritas in his reality too?), the global tensions thread was dropped (why not show these three global powers under these carrion seers?), etc. They're okay as episodes, but if you want to see the idea behind these nameless aliens done to virtual perfection and cohesion -- track down a copy of Paul Leonard's excellent Venusian Lullaby instead.
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Jun 6, 2017 4:07:12 GMT
Far be it from me to be a dissenting voice but I loved just about every minute of it. The Doctor's Equilibrium-like broadcasts, Pearl's entire performance, Matt Lucas' delivery, the Monks being genuinelly creepy and Michelle Gomez bringing some warmth (!) to The Master. Just adored it. Sure...shades of many other eps especially The Wedding Of River Song but I couldn't care less. I had a really great time with it. REALLY great. I have to admit I loved it, too.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Jun 6, 2017 14:12:47 GMT
But their power isn't suggested in Extremis and The Pyramid at the End of the World, it's literally demonstrated. They literally fixed the Doctor's eyesight, which Gallifreyan technology could not and furthermore did it whilst he was on the other side of the planet. That's not a suggestion of power, that's literal power. Also we saw their power in easily dealing with the military, including lifting a submarine out of the ocean hundreds of miles away. They are able to predict the end of the world, so accurately they can countdown to it. They are able to create a computer system so sophisticated it can replicate thousands of years of human history, including the properties of the Doctor's TARDIS. Then in The Lie of the Land they are able to broadcast brainwaves across the entire planet. These are not suggestions of power-they are literal demonstrations of power. But then in The Lie of the Land they put up resistance in one firefight and don't even properly monitor the Doctor, who they knew was a major threat. It just doesn't make sense. They didn't need to. The population assumed power. Did you even read his post? There wasn't a suggestion of power and there was not an assumption of power. In the first two episodes in this arc, the monks DID THINGS. Those things took power. Lots of it. If Lie of the Land says that actually, they don't have lots of power and were just pretending, that's a FAULT not a clever trick. It's a fault because the monks were shown DOING THINGS in the last two episodes that necessarily took lots of power. As he said: - Fixing the Doctor's eyes when, apparently, nothing in the TARDIS nor anything in space-time could; - "lifting a submarine out of the ocean hundreds of miles away" - Running a mass simulation to cover all possible outcomes for human civilization (do you have the slightest inkling of the computing power and power source that would take?) - Broadcasting "brainwaves", whatever those are, across the entire planet. These aren't suggestions or assumptions of power. They are things that the monks in fact did. The simple problem is that the third episode pretty much contradicts or completely ignores the last two. The monks suddenly can't watch or do much of anything, allow their one and only (!) crucial link to make it to the one and only (!) brainwave-whatever-center, and ruin everything by thinking about mommy. It's a mish-mash of all the problems that have plagued the era. Shame, too, because I really did enjoy the first two parts of the arc.
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 6, 2017 14:16:10 GMT
They didn't need to. The population assumed power. Did you even read his post? There wasn't a suggestion of power and there was not an assumption of power. In the first two episodes in this arc, the monks DID THINGS. Those things took power. Lots of it. They didn't need to use power in Lie of The Land. That power was already implied.
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Jun 6, 2017 14:22:03 GMT
Did you even read his post? There wasn't a suggestion of power and there was not an assumption of power. In the first two episodes in this arc, the monks DID THINGS. Those things took power. Lots of it. They didn't need to use power in Lie of The Land. That power was already implied. That is not a response. You're just repeating yourself, but you aren't actually replying to the words in the quote box.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jun 6, 2017 14:27:30 GMT
Did you even read his post? There wasn't a suggestion of power and there was not an assumption of power. In the first two episodes in this arc, the monks DID THINGS. Those things took power. Lots of it. They didn't need to use power in Lie of The Land. That power was already implied. It just seems hugely inconsistent that they clearly have this vast amount of power and then abandon it completely and put up no resistance. The Monks literally do one firefight to try and stop the Doctor. That's my issue, that after two episodes building the Monks up as this hugely powerful adversary Lie of the Land seemingly abandons this with the Monks doing practically nothing the entire episode.
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 6, 2017 14:29:29 GMT
They didn't need to use power in Lie of The Land. That power was already implied. It just seems hugely inconsistent that they clearly have this vast amount of power and then abandon it completely and put up no resistance. The Monks literally do one firefight to try and stop the Doctor. That's my issue, that after two episodes building the Monks up as this hugely powerful adversary Lie of the Land seemingly abandons this with the Monks doing practically nothing the entire episode. They didn't need to do anything. Implied power.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jun 6, 2017 14:32:42 GMT
It just seems hugely inconsistent that they clearly have this vast amount of power and then abandon it completely and put up no resistance. The Monks literally do one firefight to try and stop the Doctor. That's my issue, that after two episodes building the Monks up as this hugely powerful adversary Lie of the Land seemingly abandons this with the Monks doing practically nothing the entire episode. They didn't need to do anything. Implied power. What? The Doctor and co were literally infiltrating their pyramid to overthrow them. How is that not a situation for them to actually do something? The Monks did nothing but growl the entire episode, which after two episodes of building them up is just plain unsatisfying.
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Jun 6, 2017 16:28:41 GMT
Too smug to think they could be attacked and defeated, maybe? Seems a plausible enough explanation, and it's certainly been seen before.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jun 6, 2017 16:31:41 GMT
Too smug to think they could be attacked and defeated, maybe? Seems a plausible enough explanation, and it's certainly been seen before. Seems a bit of an odd change of character given how meticulously they planned the invasion.
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Jun 6, 2017 16:32:55 GMT
Too smug to think they could be attacked and defeated, maybe? Seems a plausible enough explanation, and it's certainly been seen before. Seems a bit of an odd change of character given how meticulously they planned the invasion. True, but once they are in control, perhaps they consider themselves secure and undefeatable.
|
|
|
Post by acousticwolf on Jun 6, 2017 18:49:10 GMT
Too smug to think they could be attacked and defeated, maybe? Seems a plausible enough explanation, and it's certainly been seen before. Seems a bit of an odd change of character given how meticulously they planned the invasion. And how powerful they seemed to be in the previous episodes. It all seems a little thin to me, which is a shame because up to this point I was really enjoying series 10. Much more than the previous two series. Cheers Tony
|
|