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Post by number13 on Jun 4, 2017 13:13:11 GMT
OK then... (Puts tin hat on... then remembers upthread comments, takes off tin hat and opts for full Dalekenium casing instead... Ready now... ) I enjoyed it! (Except for two holes - possibly one - in the plot, which I'll come to later.) Once again, the Doctor, Bill and Nardole were a brilliant team and I enjoyed every minute of their onscreen interaction, from the very intense (Oh Rassilon she just shot him and he's glowing... yep, fooled me!!) to the tension-puncturing moments of humour from Nardole. I chortled a lot at the neck-pinch and his early scene with Bill in the flat was priceless. Peter Capaldi does 'scary Doctor' incredibly well. On the prow of that unstoppable ship he was every inch 'The Oncoming Storm' and he wasn't even pretending to be bad by then! The good man who should scare villains witless! Missy. I think she's simply plotting her escape, but maybe...? So well played by Michelle Gomez, especially the emotional later scenes with Peter Capaldi. The dystopian 'alternative facts' future - think how far in advance they make these stories and it's even more impressive. Well imagined and depicted, a world where knowing the truth is a crime: scary. North Korea or the Soviet Union, everywhere. Bill doing a 'Jo Grant' and potentially sacrificing herself to save the world - and to save the Doctor. And that closing scene... The superb twist that gives them victory - Bill overwhelms the Monks' 'fake news' transmitter by feeding it an item of news which is both fake AND real. The memories of her mother only exist because the Doctor went back in Time to take those pictures and gave Bill the memories. So she floods the machine with memories that were not part of the history the Monks are rewriting - but are, because the Doctor made them part of history. A paradox which only a Time Lord could create. Bill saved the Doctor, the Doctor's act of kindness had already saved her and the world... The only definite plot hole for me was in the timing. Six months to put those transmitter statues up in every town in the world? Even using the human slave population as the labour force, it would surely have taken longer than that to organise. The other possible plot hole was - why? Why take over Earth? The Monks didn't seem to be enjoying or exploting their conquest much. Other invaders have wanted minerals (Daleks), life-energy (Axons) or even the planet itself as a battle platform (Daleks again). This was so glaring that I wondered if we will be hearing from the zombie Monks again one day... Overall, I've enjoyed this trilogy a lot. Some dips in the plot but many great moments - and for me, any other problems are set aside by the excellence of this TARDIS crew. Enjoy them while we can...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 14:43:04 GMT
Oh no! It's sad to see posters resorting to tin hats because they enjoyed the latest Doctor Who episode! Luckily, this is the DU, and one of the joys of posting here is that respect for other peoples' views is in plentiful supply - long may that reign Yep - 3.01 million for this, the same number of viewers who watched the previously lowest-viewed Doctor Who, episode one of Battlefield back in 1989. Not great to read. But as ever, context is everything. Unlike Battlefield, which was well outside to Top 100 programmes for the week (I think I am right in saying that), The Lie of the Land was the third most watched show of the day, and 45th highest overnight for the week. Added to that, clearly the bulk of the audience went for the BGT final, which pulled in 8.2 million and was also going to score well. Having said that, it was only 5 million higher than Doctor Who. I say 'only' ... Luckily for us though, we have a new series coming up next year, a new showrunner who will give it a different style, and a new Doctor Who.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jun 4, 2017 14:53:41 GMT
Hello again. There now follows a party political broadcast from the Creepy Monk party.
"Greetings denizens of the Divergent Universe. We realise our latest invasion of Earth did not go to plan. We're were beaten by someone's Mum, which is frankly embarrassing.
What no one has noticed is how similar we are to the Silents. Creepy faces, electric bolts and a penchant for manipulating minds. We will erase your memories because this is only a temporary setback. We will return and because you have forgotten us; next time our invasion will not be repelled so easily. We are waiting in your future..."
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mbt66
Chancellery Guard
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Post by mbt66 on Jun 4, 2017 15:08:54 GMT
Somewhere down the line Big Finish need to get hold of these Monks and actually explain their motivations to me.
If you want to be loved why make yourselves look like that!? They said it wasn't their natural form.
This was just someone saying we need a monster image for the trailers and the toys.
They should have taken on the forms of Greek Gods and be worshiped as such.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 4, 2017 18:41:15 GMT
Somewhere down the line Big Finish need to get hold of these Monks and actually explain their motivations to me. If you want to be loved why make yourselves look like that!? They said it wasn't their natural form. This was just someone saying we need a monster image for the trailers and the toys. They should have taken on the forms of Greek Gods and be worshiped as such. I'd love to see Big Finish use them in Classic Doctors, New Monsters once they have the rights to use elements from the 12th Doctor era. Great monsters, and no reason why an earlier Doctor couldn't have met them given how they can mess with your mind and run computer simulations.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jun 4, 2017 18:55:51 GMT
Hello again.
Well, for me this was an interesting episode. Up until Bill meeting up with the Doctor again we had a bravura performance from Pearl Mackie. Her reunion with Nardole was hilarious.
I was very uncomfortable with Bill shooting the Doctor. It did show what a different companion she is. Less sure of this strange life, afraid and capable of making the wrong decision for the right reasons.
My discomfort stems from what makes Dr. Who different. He is not a gun-toting cowboy. This is why I dislike Hell Bent so much. Shooting an individual does not ring true for my idea of the Doctor.
Perhaps Bill , is a particularly realistic human. After everything that happened to her, did what she did, because she didn't want the Doctor working for the Creepy Monks. That said, a companion shooting the Doctor was still shocking. It brought back memories of treacherous Furlough, (shiver).
The section with Missy was great. I loved Missy's list of requests "...and a pony." Maybe she watched Veruca Salt in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. As for Missy learning to be good, nope I'm not convinced. Those tears, crocodile, you mark my words.
The Creepy Monks were so creepy and yet when they take control they don't seem to do very much. They are very reminiscent of the Silents. They were defeated fairly easily and just slunk off in their pyramid muttering curses.
It was a brave idea to have a trilogy mid-season and it nearly worked. The set-up in Extremis, the last ten minutes of Pyramids and sections of Lie of the Land were thrilling. However, in a season of twelve episodes each segment needs to be good. This trilogy was good in parts and at times was really interesting, scary and funny. Ratings (8/7/6)
Next week Ice Warriors are cooool!
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Post by Tim Bradley on Jun 4, 2017 19:34:43 GMT
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Post by kimalysong on Jun 4, 2017 20:21:08 GMT
"In amongst 7 billion there is someone like you"
Please excuse me while I dry my eyes.
As for the episode itself I didn't hate it but I did find the Monks ultimately a disappointment who didn't live up to their promise. Although I did like the use of Bill's mom to defeat them.
But that last scene between Bill and the Doctor....I know moments don't make an episode but that has to be one of my favorite scenes between a Doctor & a companion.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 4, 2017 20:45:01 GMT
I don't think it is the strongest episode of the season, nor the strongest episode of this trilogy but it had a lot of interesting stuff in it. Of things that people are talking about...Bill shooting the Doctor makes sense from a character point of view. To think the person you literally sacrificed the world to save has actually turned around to work with & for the enemy can be a huge shock and I think the emotion which went into her grabbing the gun and shooting the Doctor was a brave choice to make. That this was a grand plan to make sure Bill had not turned makes less sense to me but I get it. I think the Monk's being defeated by the pure memory of Bill's Mum and those memories being made possible by an act of kindness by The Doctor is the kind of cause & effect scenario this series of the show has been playing around with. Again, it made sense to me. I would agree with whoever wrote above that the episode felt like it was missing a section though. The wrap-up is all rather perfunctory. I do get the feeling that we have not seen the last of The Monks this series. And the Time-Lady in the room. Missy. All kinds of interesting stuff set in motion with her. I have to say I rather love the idea of the Smmm Master battling the Gomez Mistress & the Doctor. Again, love Matt Lucas as Nardole. I don't know that we are ever going to get as deeply into his character or his relationship with The Doctor as I would like this season but Lucas does more with what he is given than most actors. Pearl Mackie continues to impress and I'll say it again, I wished we had gotten her in series 9. I don't want her story to end any time soon. All in all this was a odd episode. Not terrible but not great either. Honestly, if this episode turns out to be the rut of the litter for series 10, well, we will be talking about this series for a long time. Bring on the Ice Warriors.
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Post by number13 on Jun 4, 2017 21:52:34 GMT
Oh no! It's sad to see posters resorting to tin hats because they enjoyed the latest Doctor Who episode! Luckily, this is the DU, and one of the joys of posting here is that respect for other peoples' views is in plentiful supply - long may that reign I donned the tin hat purely for comic effect! (As I'm sure everyone knew!) There can be few places on the pangalactic matrixnet more friendly and inclusive than DU. Opinions, discussions, agreements and polite disagreements flow gently and encouragingly back and forth, like positive thoughts in the TARDIS' low-level telepathic field making for a happy Ship. "In amongst seven billion there is one website like (D)you..."
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 21:57:03 GMT
I quite liked that. For me, If the story is filled with great characters and is preformed well, I can look past some story issues. All 3 mains were of course as amazing as usual. However they were a few parts were I thought that it could have slowed down a bit. Michelle Gomez will be dearly missed as she gets better with each episode.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2017 23:37:08 GMT
It was an enjoyable episode, but sadly, I found it a little bit of a let-down after the last two.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2017 1:55:25 GMT
I wonder if next week's episode will be edited slightly due to real world events?
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jun 5, 2017 8:44:37 GMT
One thing I'd have done differently would have been: Bill: so why put up with us? Doctor: Because ... out of the seven billion humans ... every so often there's an Ian Chesterton, or a Rose Tyler or a Sarah Jane Smith or ... *genuinely warm smile* a Bill Potts.
Just drop a few names of old companions.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 5, 2017 11:10:07 GMT
One thing I'd have done differently would have been: Bill: so why put up with us? Doctor: Because ... out of the seven billion humans ... every so often there's an Ian Chesterton, or a Rose Tyler or a Sarah Jane Smith or ... *genuinely warm smile* a Bill Potts. Just drop a few names of old companions. That would have been great, and probably what would have happened in Series 9. I think they're too determined to make Series 10 feel entirely new though.
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Post by mrperson on Jun 5, 2017 13:45:31 GMT
Annnnnnnnnd.....crash landing.
Dull episode stuffed with cringeworthy nonsense (for all the reasons said on page 1), and then they had to go with a nonsense "love saved everything because writer said so" ending AGAIN.
Very disappointed with whatever that was.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 5, 2017 13:47:45 GMT
Annnnnnnnnd.....crash landing. Dull episode stuffed with cringeworthy nonsense (for all the reasons said on page 1), and then they had to go with a nonsense "love saved everything because writer said so" ending AGAIN. Very disappointed with whatever that was. Not anymore. Love saved your disappointment. Because my reply says so!
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Post by mrperson on Jun 5, 2017 13:53:11 GMT
One thing I'd have done differently would have been: Bill: so why put up with us? Doctor: Because ... out of the seven billion humans ... every so often there's an Ian Chesterton, or a Rose Tyler or a Sarah Jane Smith or ... *genuinely warm smile* a Bill Potts. Just drop a few names of old companions. It never used to happen that after only a few episodes, the new companion is suddenly the greatest thing every. They used to be just....companions. Moffat keeps doing this and it bugs me to no end. Why does he feel he needs the Doctor to announce to the audience, a few episodes in, that the new companion is the best?
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Post by mrperson on Jun 5, 2017 13:53:49 GMT
Annnnnnnnnd.....crash landing. Dull episode stuffed with cringeworthy nonsense (for all the reasons said on page 1), and then they had to go with a nonsense "love saved everything because writer said so" ending AGAIN. Very disappointed with whatever that was. Not anymore. Love saved your disappointment. Because my reply says so! What?
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Post by mrperson on Jun 5, 2017 13:58:44 GMT
Fair enough. I just found it frustrating that they were the central focus of three entire episodes and we still don't even know why they bothered invading in the first place. Did they just do it for the sake of it? Also they were portrayed as virtually all powerful at various stages, able to fix the Doctor's eyesight (which Gallifreyan technology seemingly couldn't) from the other side of the world and to make a simulation of thousands of years of human history, so them putting up virtually no resistance (aside from one fight) made no sense. They didn't even bother to keep that much of an eye on the Doctor, given he was somehow able to un-brainwash his entire set of guards. I believe they explained it as a false sense of power. People think there are more Monks than there are because they strategically have the same twelve monks situated in public so it seems as though they are everywhere. How is magically fixing the Doctor's eyesight with a wave of a finger, when nothing else in the universe could (or maybe it could he inexplicably became stupid for a couple episodes so he didn't think of it), a "false sense of power"? How is being able to design AIs that are self-aware a "false sense of power"? How is having the energy to run them in a simulation until all scenarios are conceived a "false sense of power"? It's not that there was a Wizard of Oz situation going on from the start. The monks were presented as nearly all-powerful for two episodes. They did things requiring that power. The writer(s) couldn't stick a landing with them still being all-powerful in the third, so, they were simply weak, ineffective, and apparently not paying attention (to what they ALREADY supposedly simulated) for the third episode. There's no consistent reason for it. They changed because the plot wouldn't work otherwise, not for any logical reason.
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