Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 16:15:44 GMT
What did we have in Chris Eccleston's series - the series that was popular enough for the show continue another 10+ years? Burping bins and farting aliens. A face in a jar and 'Lady Cassandra.'  But no, I agree. Chris Chibnall's comments seem to indicate he's not pandering to fans, and I think he is absolutely right. Oh yeah, definitely. I think that's sort of what alienated people from Capaldi. A lot of classic fans had been clamouring for an older Doctor, but when he came along... his first few episodes he is very different. But, later on, he kind of becomes boring. I think that knocked people off. Also, with the series, nowadays, more focusing on its plotline as key to stories... it's a lot easier to see which episodes are filler.From how I perceive it, Chibnall will literally make it one plotline throughout the course of the series, like The War Games or The Daleks' Master Plan. Or he's going to do something along the lines of Luther or Sherlock, which is probably more likely... As in, he'll have a thread throughout the whole series, whilst they fight monsters, with the Doctor trying to get to the bottom of the mystery. Something along those lines. Just to respond to the highlighted point you make. I've never understood the accusation of 'filler', for any Doctor Who episode. I take it to mean an episode that does not contribute largely to that series' over-reaching 'arc', would that be right? If so, I'd say that not every episode has to be part of any arc. It can simply be an antertaining story in it's own right, just as the majority of the classic series was (bar Trial of a Timelord and The Key to Time). A 'standalone' rather than a 'filler' - in fact I much prefer 'standalone' because it doesn't have negative connotations. And I prefer standalone stories themselves because you can watch them any time, out of context, and not feel you missing a bigger picture. For example, Blink could be described as filler as it features nothing about 'series baddie' Mr Saxon. Midnight, apart from a brief glimpse of Rose, adds nothing to the barnstorming return theme of that series. I mention these in particular because they are favourites of mine. I would never dismiss them with a word like 'filler', in fact I'd never dismiss them at all. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 16:25:36 GMT
Oh yeah, definitely. I think that's sort of what alienated people from Capaldi. A lot of classic fans had been clamouring for an older Doctor, but when he came along... his first few episodes he is very different. But, later on, he kind of becomes boring. I think that knocked people off. Also, with the series, nowadays, more focusing on its plotline as key to stories... it's a lot easier to see which episodes are filler.From how I perceive it, Chibnall will literally make it one plotline throughout the course of the series, like The War Games or The Daleks' Master Plan. Or he's going to do something along the lines of Luther or Sherlock, which is probably more likely... As in, he'll have a thread throughout the whole series, whilst they fight monsters, with the Doctor trying to get to the bottom of the mystery. Something along those lines. Just to respond to the highlighted point you make. I've never understood the accusation of 'filler', for any Doctor Who episode. I take it to mean an episode that does not contribute largely to that series' over-reaching 'arc', would that be right? If so, I'd say that not every episode has to be part of any arc. It can simply be an antertaining story in it's own right, just as the majority of the classic series was (bar Trial of a Timelord and The Key to Time). A 'standalone' rather than a 'filler' - in fact I much prefer 'standalone' because it doesn't have negative connotations. And I prefer standalone stories themselves because you can watch them any time, out of context, and not feel you missing a bigger picture. For example, Blink could be described as filler as it features nothing about 'series baddie' Mr Saxon. Midnight, apart from a brief glimpse of Rose, adds nothing to the barnstorming return theme of that series. I mention these in particular because they are favourites of mine. I would never dismiss them with a word like 'filler', in fact I'd never dismiss them at all. What I mean is stories like Empress of Mars or The Eaters of Light feel just like filler to the finale, especially after the mid-series plotline. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2017 16:31:20 GMT
What I mean is stories like Empress of Mars or The Eaters of Light feel just like filler to the finale, especially after the mid-series plotline. And not great stories in their own right, you mean? I love them! I don't see how you can dismiss such chunks of a series for such a reason. If you don't like the stories themselves then I fully understand why you wouldn't rate them. But if you only want episodes that add to the finale, then you may as well just watch the first and last episodes of a series Anyway, that's enough derailing from me! |
|
|
|
Post by Tim Bradley on Jun 18, 2017 17:07:28 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by kimalysong on Jun 18, 2017 17:37:52 GMT
No one can say ratings are down because fans do not like an older Doctor or they don't like the Monsters. There is absolutely no evidence to back that up besides personal opinion and hearsay.
Anyways after reading this thread I was keeping my expectations pretty low for this episode but I ended up being pleasantly surprised and I would say this was one of my favorites of the season. Yes the monster was nothing special but the characters and setting were so strong. And personally strong characters take precedence for me over a strong monster.
Admittedly I think this story would have benefited as a two-parter (although I know it's not the type of story to get 2 episodes). I would have liked to get to know the Roman legion and Picts more and I would have liked to have spent a little more time on them getting to know one another. But from the little we got I enjoyed both groups of characters. And yes we've seen sworn enemies get over their differences to fight a new enemy many times before but it is a nice albeit someone naive thought. I thought the fact that both groups were basically kids and not completely set in their ways did make it a bit more believable to me. I also loved the whole legend/myth aspect of this story. This was a really fun way to explain what happened to the 9th legion and I loved the part with the crows at end. In the end the Doctor and Bill inspired these kids to put aside their hatred, work together, save themselves (with some help), and become their own heroes. I think that is pretty lovely way to end the 12th Doctor's standalone stories before we get into his final storyline (*sniff*).
As for Missy I don't really know what to think I believe she is not fooling the Doctor but I also don't believe in the end she will be truly redeemed. Even if she wants to be good something will ultimately put her on the wrong path again. But this was my favorite quote in the episode "That's the trouble with hope. It's hard to resist." I have to say I completely understand the Doctor here because I know that feeling so well.
Two things though I didn't get from this episode. Bill not realizing that the TARDIS translates for her at this point in the story seems a bit odd. And also I don't get why Bill was so hell bent against Missy, she hardly knows her. Okay she could have been told about the Master but I don't know it just doesn't seem true to Bill's character.
|
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Jun 18, 2017 17:46:23 GMT
. Bill not realizing that the TARDIS translates for her at this point in the story seems a bit odd. And also I don't get why Bill was so hell bent against Missy, she hardly knows her. Okay she could have been told about the Master but I don't know it just doesn't seem true to Bill's character. Well until this point Bill hasn't encountered anyone who it wasn't reasonable to assume they might know English. Her only trip to the past was in London and otherwise she's been to the future where she might just not question it. This is the first situation where she encounters someone who she knows can't possibly know English. And in fairness to her it took Sarah Jane three seasons to pick up on it. I agree about her views on Missy, she's only met her twice and both times she helped out. Granted Missy has been honest about killing people in the past but Bill hasn't actually witnessed anything to make her so overtly distrust her redeeming. |
|
|
|
Post by coffeeaddict on Jun 18, 2017 18:31:02 GMT
It seemed to me that at points the audio track didn't line up with the video very well.
This episode was entertaining but not one of the better ones to my thinking. With this season almost over I can officially say I don't like Bill. There have been a few moments during the series where she's been okay but for the most part I just don't find her likeable.
|
|
|
|
Post by stcoop on Jun 18, 2017 18:35:33 GMT
Some of the oddities in the episode come from the fact that it was written very, very early on. In fact, Rona Munro only had the audition scenes that were given to Pearl Mackie to go on, not even any completed scripts. Also, it was originally due to air earlier in the series; which explains Bill not knowing about TARDIS translation and comments about the Vault. The long TARDIS scene at the end was written by Moffat and shot much later.
|
|
|
|
Post by acousticwolf on Jun 18, 2017 20:11:48 GMT
It was ok. The interactions between characters were fine, but I thought the story was pretty weak - it could have been so much better.
Cheers
Tony
|
|
|
|
Post by aemiliapaula on Jun 18, 2017 23:39:32 GMT
I loved it when the Pictish woman quoted Tacitus
"They make a desert and call it a peace"
|
|
bobod
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,759 
|
Post by bobod on Jun 19, 2017 0:11:04 GMT
I don't believe that it's people just being in the sun. It's more likely that it's a general lack of interest. Whilst I agree this series of Doctor Who has produced disappointing ratings, the weather made an impact - how else do you explain the highest rated show of the day was only 4.09 million viewers? Overnights are irrelevant - all they do is give worriers something to worry about that isn't worth worrying about and people who don't like the current show the opportunity to claim no one else does. |
|
|
|
Post by stcoop on Jun 19, 2017 0:22:08 GMT
Overnights are irrelevant - all they do is give worriers something to worry about that isn't worth worrying about and people who don't like the current show the opportunity to claim no one else does. Of course they're not irrelevant. The number of extra viewers added isn't going to shoot up astronomically over the usual level so it will still wind up as the least watched episode ever. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 0:22:12 GMT
We tend to get a desert climate nowadays where I live (Centre-Eastish). Sharp rise and sharp fall in temperature with no autumn or spring to really speak of. It's Hot and then it's Cold. Mostly hot. Perpetually dry too, we've always had very little rain except on special occasions. It's very rare not to have a blue sky as far as the eye can see and the sun beating down on you from above irrespective of the season. Sunglasses tend to be a must when going outdoors if only to see properly. Oh, so you're in the "Australian" part of Australia, are you?  I'm in Tasmania ("the little triangle off the main continent"), which, according to what little knowledge I have of British weather, must have also been settled by the weather as well as the people of Britain back in the day. It can go from a sunny day to heavy rain in a matter of minutes (this is no exaggeration!), and only in summer do things ever get "hot" (and when they do... you're lucky if you're a pool on the floor and not evaporating instead  ). When it isn't summer, it's almost always cold and miserable, similar to sherlock 's description. I feel, somehow, that I've drawn the shot end of the stick somewhere Ah, yes. Australia! In their capital city, Australia.  I like being vague for Google analytics. I'm actually in Queensland. The Butcher of Brisbane is an interesting story for me, shall we say. Oh, I remember. The family had a trip down to Tasmania for a week many, many years ago and it was literally raining sideways. My father, six-foot-tall tower of a man, walked through a hollow snowdrift where his leg sunk straight down to his knee and he teetered over like a toy soldier. |
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Jun 19, 2017 1:28:07 GMT
Again, I quite liked it. But I saw one glaring flaw I hope is explained by a one-liner I forgot:
I . When The Doctor was first in the megolithic structure, and it opened then closed, 2 days 8 hours passed in seconds (so he said...seemed more like 20-40).
When they were all in there towards the end while it opened, sat open, etc., they were in there for several minutes. The others made their noble sacrifice, fine, but when The Doctor and Bill left, it ought to have been much much much later.
II. Oh, the grandiosity! STOP it with every threat threatening the entire universe! (I know BF does it too, though less often. But it really does rub me the wrong way when it's endlessly repeated.
Counterpoint: ok, Mr. Person, how much did it happen THIS season. Fine fine.
But still.
III. Missy and crying/reforming. I'm not sure this can go well for me either way, but I really really really will try to give it an honest chance. Promise. However,
A. If this is supposed to be a serious reformation of The Master, the character who wobbled through time between genuine menace (Beavers, MacQueen, and sometimes Delgado) and uber-panto villian (the rest) for however many hundreds or thousands of years?
I'm all for rehabilitation. Nothing I know suggests to me that putting a millenia-garian in a box for 70 years and eating with them will convince them to be good again.
B. The other major possibility* is that she's playing him, in which case he's turned into the biggest idiot ever. He's left the Master in any number of situations that could be expected to lead to his/her death. Now he's suddenly daft enough to give her a millionth chance?
C. What does that leave? Temporary insanity on one of their parts? Manipulation of the Doctor by Simm/Gomez? Still find it hard to swallow but we'll see.
D. They are both playing each other, they think. OK, but you did that with another character in Season 9! BLAH
*I'm ruling out stuff like temporary insanity because that would be even worse because reasons.
I'm trying not to pay attention to these things as I watch episodes these days. I wish I didn't have to do it, but there you go.
(Finally, note how above I said I saw "one" glaring flaw. Then I wrote this.)
|
|
bobod
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,759
|
Post by bobod on Jun 19, 2017 10:16:09 GMT
Overnights are irrelevant - all they do is give worriers something to worry about that isn't worth worrying about and people who don't like the current show the opportunity to claim no one else does. Of course they're not irrelevant. The number of extra viewers added isn't going to shoot up astronomically over the usual level so it will still wind up as the least watched episode ever. Something has to be. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 10:26:51 GMT
Again, I quite liked it. But I saw one glaring flaw I hope is explained by a one-liner I forgot: I . When The Doctor was first in the megolithic structure, and it opened then closed, 2 days 8 hours passed in seconds (so he said...seemed more like 20-40). When they were all in there towards the end while it opened, sat open, etc., they were in there for several minutes. The others made their noble sacrifice, fine, but when The Doctor and Bill left, it ought to have been much much much later.
II. Oh, the grandiosity! STOP it with every threat threatening the entire universe! (I know BF does it too, though less often. But it really does rub me the wrong way when it's endlessly repeated. Counterpoint: ok, Mr. Person, how much did it happen THIS season. Fine fine. But still. III. Missy and crying/reforming. I'm not sure this can go well for me either way, but I really really really will try to give it an honest chance. Promise. However, A. If this is supposed to be a serious reformation of The Master, the character who wobbled through time between genuine menace (Beavers, MacQueen, and sometimes Delgado) and uber-panto villian (the rest) for however many hundreds or thousands of years? I'm all for rehabilitation. Nothing I know suggests to me that putting a millenia-garian in a box for 70 years and eating with them will convince them to be good again.
B. The other major possibility* is that she's playing him, in which case he's turned into the biggest idiot ever. He's left the Master in any number of situations that could be expected to lead to his/her death. Now he's suddenly daft enough to give her a millionth chance? C. What does that leave? Temporary insanity on one of their parts? Manipulation of the Doctor by Simm/Gomez? Still find it hard to swallow but we'll see. D. They are both playing each other, they think. OK, but you did that with another character in Season 9! BLAH *I'm ruling out stuff like temporary insanity because that would be even worse because reasons. I'm trying not to pay attention to these things as I watch episodes these days. I wish I didn't have to do it, but there you go. (Finally, note how above I said I saw "one" glaring flaw. Then I wrote this.) In answer to point I. It isn't being in the cairn that changes the flow of time, it's passing into the blue vortex. So Bill and the Doctor et al weren't affected on the second occasion. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2017 10:28:46 GMT
It seemed to me that at points the audio track didn't line up with the video very well. This episode was entertaining but not one of the better ones to my thinking. With this season almost over I can officially say I don't like Bill. There have been a few moments during the series where she's been okay but for the most part I just don't find her likeable. Yes I thought that. Ironic given that this was tue episode where Bill points out the lip-synch flaw to the TARDIS translation excuse. |
|
|
|
Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 19, 2017 10:30:20 GMT
Again, I quite liked it. But I saw one glaring flaw I hope is explained by a one-liner I forgot: I . When The Doctor was first in the megolithic structure, and it opened then closed, 2 days 8 hours passed in seconds (so he said...seemed more like 20-40). When they were all in there towards the end while it opened, sat open, etc., they were in there for several minutes. The others made their noble sacrifice, fine, but when The Doctor and Bill left, it ought to have been much much much later.
II. Oh, the grandiosity! STOP it with every threat threatening the entire universe! (I know BF does it too, though less often. But it really does rub me the wrong way when it's endlessly repeated. Counterpoint: ok, Mr. Person, how much did it happen THIS season. Fine fine. But still. III. Missy and crying/reforming. I'm not sure this can go well for me either way, but I really really really will try to give it an honest chance. Promise. However, A. If this is supposed to be a serious reformation of The Master, the character who wobbled through time between genuine menace (Beavers, MacQueen, and sometimes Delgado) and uber-panto villian (the rest) for however many hundreds or thousands of years? I'm all for rehabilitation. Nothing I know suggests to me that putting a millenia-garian in a box for 70 years and eating with them will convince them to be good again.
B. The other major possibility* is that she's playing him, in which case he's turned into the biggest idiot ever. He's left the Master in any number of situations that could be expected to lead to his/her death. Now he's suddenly daft enough to give her a millionth chance? C. What does that leave? Temporary insanity on one of their parts? Manipulation of the Doctor by Simm/Gomez? Still find it hard to swallow but we'll see. D. They are both playing each other, they think. OK, but you did that with another character in Season 9! BLAH *I'm ruling out stuff like temporary insanity because that would be even worse because reasons. I'm trying not to pay attention to these things as I watch episodes these days. I wish I didn't have to do it, but there you go. (Finally, note how above I said I saw "one" glaring flaw. Then I wrote this.) If Missy is playing the Doctor it's not the Doctor being stupid, it's the Doctor finding it hard to resist the hope that his best friend can change. To his enemies the Doctor's greatest weakness is always that he sees the good in people. |
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Jun 19, 2017 13:06:55 GMT
Not the best episode of the series, but still a very good one. It told its story well in the time and entertained. I did have a few criticisms, but there was so much to like: - The Doctor, Bill and Nardole really are a great team (and yay!, Nardole is fully in this one, still with his adventurous dress-sense!) The Doctor's propensity for self-sacrifice is clearly being flagged up, with a regeneration almost upon us (unfortunately, in my opinion, I'd like him to stay on.) Bill discovering that many Romans liked 'snails and oysters' (ref. 'Ben-Hur') was fun, and a reminder that in some ways the ancient world was more liberal than many countries today. (Surprised that Bill was surprised, she must have seen 'Ben-Hur' at least, she was quoting films all the time last week!) And what great lines they keep writing for Nardole. Doctor:'He died from a total absence of sunlight.' Nardole:'Death by Scotland...' - The Location: The northeast Highlands is a very special place, the beautiful, ancient landscape scattered with cairns and standing stones (and crows!), so this scenario had me hooked from the start. The filming was excellent and the interiors in the cairn set and the caves looked just as impressive. - The Monster: a proper 'Doctor Who' monster. It's big, fast and wants to eat your life-energy and all the light in the Universe. Don't reason with it or see its point of view, just defeat it! And great CGI. - The Romans and the Picti should be friends: 'My enemy's enemy is my friend' is hardly new, but it has often been true and made for a good ending here as they became some of the legendary 'hidden people', together keeping the world safe for all Time. On the other hand: - The insistence that the Romans and Picts were just kids who should 'grow up' got a bit tiring by the third time (Bill encouraging the Romans, the Doctor and Nardole encouraging the Picts, the Doctor straight-out telling the Romans and the Picts.) And 18 was considered quite a bit older then, relatively speaking, than now. - I'd have liked more 'monster-horror' and less chat. But being realistic, talk is cheap and CGI isn't. - The battlefield with all those dead legionaries evenly spread out. Did they just stand there in formation and wait their turn for the Eater of Light to devour them? - Yes Bill, the TARDIS even translates Latin for you, just like it did when you met the the Ice Warriors etc.! On the other hand, in the classic series nobody ever questioned this, except Sarah Jane in 'The Masque of Mandragora' - and that was a sign she had been drugged and hypnotised by the astrologer Hieronymus. And the lip-sync problem Bill spots had never even crossed my mind before now... Overall, it was an old-fashioned tale of the Doctor and his friends helping some plucky humans unite when faced with a ravening alien horror, and none the worse for that. Another enjoyable episode which deserved a bigger audience than it apparently got, but this week is 'summer' in the U.K. And the highlight was the very end - those scenes between Missy and the Doctor, beautifully played by Michelle Gomez and Peter Capaldi. (PLEASE give this storyline the payoff it deserves, not just 'fooled you again, Doctor!') |
|
|
|
Post by mrperson on Jun 19, 2017 17:00:07 GMT
Again, I quite liked it. But I saw one glaring flaw I hope is explained by a one-liner I forgot: I . When The Doctor was first in the megolithic structure, and it opened then closed, 2 days 8 hours passed in seconds (so he said...seemed more like 20-40). When they were all in there towards the end while it opened, sat open, etc., they were in there for several minutes. The others made their noble sacrifice, fine, but when The Doctor and Bill left, it ought to have been much much much later. In answer to point I. It isn't being in the cairn that changes the flow of time, it's passing into the blue vortex. So Bill and the Doctor et al weren't affected on the second occasion. The first time I saw it, I had the impression that he leaned in close and looked through it, like a kid staring into an aquarium. But I did go back and look, and it seems you are right. They show him planting his feet just inside it. |
|
). When it isn't summer, it's almost always cold and miserable, similar to 
I like being vague for Google analytics. I'm actually in Queensland. 
