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Post by Ela on Jun 20, 2017 3:02:13 GMT
I have to say I enjoyed this episode. As others have said, I enjoyed the mix of historical setting and monster. Enjoyed Nardole and Bill. And I really wonder where the Missy story line is going.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 11:41:46 GMT
I really enjoyed this episode... well until the Missy bit at the end. (I don't buy the tears either.) But overall it was very good with some fun moments. Bill and Nardole steal the show once again; I really like them as a team, which is a surprise as they are an odd pairing... but it works. The crow thing was eerie too. A good episode and an 8/10 rating from me.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jun 20, 2017 11:48:33 GMT
Review to follow soon
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2017 18:18:26 GMT
I enjoyed this very much. If I'm honest, I think this series has worked better as a series of one-part stories (so far). The epic-length story of the monks wasn't really interesting enough to sustain 2 and quarter hours of television - although, even as the series weakest point (in my view), I still found lots to enjoy. This was economically told, featured some really strong, likeable characters, and fascinating monster and a melancholy ending ... in fact, really rather moving. The bit in the TARDIS continues to make me wonder what exactly both The Doctor and Missy are playing at, either together (doubtful), or with their own agendas (far more likely).
And yes, as @stevo said above, this TARDIS team of oddballs are the most enjoyable team-up for quite a while. I love each character and can't help but feel really sad that all their days appear to be numbered.
And the trailer next week? The Mondasian Cybermen look incredible, (from that brief scene) and John Simm's line, spoken with venom, made me wish next Saturday was here right now.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 21, 2017 12:49:50 GMT
I agree with muckypup . It’s a lot better than it is in execution than it is in concept. The kids in the cold open look more like actual children than other kids I’ve seen in Doctor Who, so that counts for something. Yikes! Nardole’s initial outfit. Did he go blind in Oxygen too? Not quite sure how else to explain that costume. Additional fashion note: Why does Bill have her jeans hiked up so high? She looks like someone’s grandfather. I usually like divided parties, but I don’t think it worked here. My initial thought was that going off is a great way to get killed. And I was vindicated a few minutes later when Bill gets chased by a Pict and falls through the ground to discover the Batcave. Had some standout lines. “It’s Scotland. It’s supposed to be damp!” “Oh my God, it even does lip sync!” “Death by Scotland.” Heh. I liked the design work on the monster. Top notch. Distinctive, but not gimmicky. Not sure what I think about those woke Romans. Nice to see my values reflected on screen, but it never really goes anywhere. Also, not sure what the Doctor was attempting with the popcorn distraction. He gets away, stops running almost immediately and then the pursuers catch up to Nardole. What exactly was he expecting to happen? My wife is a Unitarian Universalist, and she pointed out that the Romans were technically incorrect when they referred to the cave system as a labyrinth, which by definition only has one path. (Unitarians are big on labyrinths.) I do like doomed last stands, but this one seemed unnecessary. Was there any reason not to go back to the TARDIS and its effectively infinite resources? Also, as mrperson said, we didn’t need a universe-level threat here to make the story work. If it is a threat to the entire universe, maybe the Doctor wants to do more than sending a dozen people in and then dropping some rocks on it? I like what they were attempting with the crows, but it made me think of SNL’s Deep Thoughts: The crows seem to be calling my name, thought Caw.I understand from other comments in the thread that the story had been written early, before a lot of Bill’s character had been established. But it’s the tenth episode of the season and there’s no excuse for not tweaking it to fit better with what we got before. Isn’t that what an editor is supposed to do? Missy, bleh. I just don’t like her, because I find her boring, and that’s the worst thing for a villain to be. I didn’t hate it, but it never seemed like the individual scenes ever added up to anything more than their individual components.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 12:54:19 GMT
Missy, bleh. I just don’t like her, because I find her boring, and that’s the worst thing for a villain to be. I disagree. Missy is far from boring. To me she is the nearest new series equivalent to Roger Delgado's Master.
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Post by muckypup on Jun 21, 2017 13:57:28 GMT
Missy, bleh. I just don’t like her, because I find her boring, and that’s the worst thing for a villain to be. I disagree. Missy is far from boring. To me she is the nearest new series equivalent to Roger Delgado's Master. not sure i agree with that in any shape or form, delgado had menace....as did the others till Sim went mad and ham'ed it up to the max. Missy is more akin to Alan Rickman's sheriff of Nottingham from Costner's Robin Hood, fun but often seems to be playing panto audience, there never seems to be any real threat just someone to boo and hiss at. in fact give her a fur coat and she is cruela de vile! and this "i am the doctors friend" stuff is just nauseating, but i am interested to see how her final episodes pan out.....if only to finally see the back of her.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 14:01:25 GMT
I disagree. Missy is far from boring. To me she is the nearest new series equivalent to Roger Delgado's Master. not sure i agree with that in any shape or form, delgado had menace....as did the others till Sim went mad and ham'ed it up to the max. Missy is more akin to Alan Rickman's sheriff of Nottingham from Costner's Robin Hood, fun but often seems to be playing panto audience, there never seems to be any real threat just someone to boo and hiss at. in fact give her a fur coat and she is cruela de vile! and this "i am the doctors friend" stuff is just nauseating, but i am interested to see how her final episodes pan out.....if only to finally see the back of her. Michelle Gomez is dark and sinister like Delgado's Master. I personally really like the 'I want to be your friend again' stuff, even if it's obviously Missy playing with the Doctor.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 21, 2017 14:04:57 GMT
I disagree. Missy is far from boring. To me she is the nearest new series equivalent to Roger Delgado's Master. not sure i agree with that in any shape or form, delgado had menace....as did the others till Sim went mad and ham'ed it up to the max. Missy is more akin to Alan Rickman's sheriff of Nottingham from Costner's Robin Hood, fun but often seems to be playing panto audience, there never seems to be any real threat just someone to boo and hiss at. in fact give her a fur coat and she is cruela de vile! and this "i am the doctors friend" stuff is just nauseating, but i am interested to see how her final episodes pan out.....if only to finally see the back of her. I Completely agree
And we still have no in story reason why Simm might be involved but we know he is.
I think the finale could be another cobbled together mess.
Regards
mark687
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Post by muckypup on Jun 21, 2017 14:10:32 GMT
not sure i agree with that in any shape or form, delgado had menace....as did the others till Sim went mad and ham'ed it up to the max. Missy is more akin to Alan Rickman's sheriff of Nottingham from Costner's Robin Hood, fun but often seems to be playing panto audience, there never seems to be any real threat just someone to boo and hiss at. in fact give her a fur coat and she is cruela de vile! and this "i am the doctors friend" stuff is just nauseating, but i am interested to see how her final episodes pan out.....if only to finally see the back of her. Michelle Gomez is dark and sinister like Delgado's Master. I personally really like the 'I want to be your friend again' stuff, even if it's obviously Missy playing with the Doctor. and i am glad you do like her, it shows she is working for some. just not for me, i will not be sad to see her go, that said i will not miss capaldi either...or moffat. i still enjoy watching it but i feel ready for change.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 21, 2017 14:18:45 GMT
Michelle Gomez is dark and sinister like Delgado's Master. I personally really like the 'I want to be your friend again' stuff, even if it's obviously Missy playing with the Doctor. and i am glad you do like her, it shows she is working for some. just not for me, i will not be sad to see her go, that said i will not miss capaldi either...or moffat. i still enjoy watching it but i feel ready for change. I'll miss Capaldi but I must admit I'm looking forward to letting loose on a Moffatt Era retrospective Thread that someone will probably start on the 26th December.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 14:49:04 GMT
and i am glad you do like her, it shows she is working for some. just not for me, i will not be sad to see her go, that said i will not miss capaldi either...or moffat. i still enjoy watching it but i feel ready for change. I'll miss Capaldi but I must admit I'm looking forward to letting loose on a Moffatt Era retrospective Thread that someone will probably start on the 26th December.
Regards
mark687
Equally - and I know I've mentioned this before - I really hope Moffat writes his own 'Writer's Tale' about the thinking behind his Doctor Who tenure and reactions to it. I reckon there might be some surprises in there!
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jun 21, 2017 18:37:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 19:01:43 GMT
not sure i agree with that in any shape or form, delgado had menace....as did the others till Sim went mad and ham'ed it up to the max. Missy is more akin to Alan Rickman's sheriff of Nottingham from Costner's Robin Hood, fun but often seems to be playing panto audience, there never seems to be any real threat just someone to boo and hiss at. in fact give her a fur coat and she is cruela de vile! and this "i am the doctors friend" stuff is just nauseating, but i am interested to see how her final episodes pan out.....if only to finally see the back of her. Michelle Gomez is dark and sinister like Delgado's Master. I personally really like the 'I want to be your friend again' stuff, even if it's obviously Missy playing with the Doctor. I think I agree as far as this year goes. Shame she was portrayed as a Mary Poppins joke in the previous two seasons.
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Post by kimalysong on Jun 21, 2017 19:16:25 GMT
I agree with muckypup . It’s a lot better than it is in execution than it is in concept. Yikes! Nardole’s initial outfit. Did he go blind in Oxygen too? Not quite sure how else to explain that costume. Additional fashion note: Why does Bill have her jeans hiked up so high? She looks like someone’s grandfather. Nardole was in his pajamas in the beginning of the episode. That being said I don't think Nardole is known for his fashion sense. He's not entirely human after all
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Post by mrperson on Jun 21, 2017 21:04:47 GMT
III. Missy and crying/reforming. I'm not sure this can go well for me either way, but I really really really will try to give it an honest chance. Promise. However, A. If this is supposed to be a serious reformation of The Master, the character who wobbled through time between genuine menace (Beavers, MacQueen, and sometimes Delgado) and uber-panto villian (the rest) for however many hundreds or thousands of years? I'm all for rehabilitation. Nothing I know suggests to me that putting a millenia-garian in a box for 70 years and eating with them will convince them to be good again. B. The other major possibility* is that she's playing him, in which case he's turned into the biggest idiot ever. He's left the Master in any number of situations that could be expected to lead to his/her death. Now he's suddenly daft enough to give her a millionth chance? C. What does that leave? Temporary insanity on one of their parts? Manipulation of the Doctor by Simm/Gomez? Still find it hard to swallow but we'll see. D. They are both playing each other, they think. OK, but you did that with another character in Season 9! BLAH If Missy is playing the Doctor it's not the Doctor being stupid, it's the Doctor finding it hard to resist the hope that his best friend can change. To his enemies the Doctor's greatest weakness is always that he sees the good in people. My personal opinion that the Doctor would be stupid to let himself get played does not become incorrect because your personal opinion is that "finding it hard to resist the hope that his best friend can change" does not qualify as being stupid in these circumstances. It simply means we have different personal opinions. ____________________ Analogy: someone claiming to be a friend becomes a heroin addict. They keep claiming to have gotten clean, even legitimately so, but every time you let them stay on your couch, stuff goes missing. After X years, letting them stay again may be warm-hearted AND stupid at the same time. The Master/Missy is incomparably worse. He/she has actively tried to kill the Doctor many times, and has succeeded in killing countless other people. The crimes are far greater, extended over thousands of years....not just a few. He/she is probably responsible for more deaths than humanity's worst monsters combined, so much so that I'm hard pressed to think of an analogy. Sort of like Eisenhower granting Stalin a top cabinet position because Stalin cried about having tens of millions of people killed, in some alternative reality where they were best buds in school....but then multiplied by 100+ Yeah, if he let's himself get played he's stupid. And the worst part of it is that he's only being that stupid in order to serve as a plot device. Everywhere else, he's going to be a genius. ____________________ That's my opinion. Think what you want.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 22:11:49 GMT
If Missy is playing the Doctor it's not the Doctor being stupid, it's the Doctor finding it hard to resist the hope that his best friend can change. To his enemies the Doctor's greatest weakness is always that he sees the good in people. My personal opinion that the Doctor would be stupid to let himself get played does not become incorrect because your personal opinion is that "finding it hard to resist the hope that his best friend can change" does not qualify as being stupid in these circumstances. It simply means we have different personal opinions. ____________________ Analogy: someone claiming to be a friend becomes a heroin addict. They keep claiming to have gotten clean, even legitimately so, but every time you let them stay on your couch, stuff goes missing. After X years, letting them stay again may be warm-hearted AND stupid at the same time. The Master/Missy is incomparably worse. He/she has actively tried to kill the Doctor many times, and has succeeded in killing countless other people. The crimes are far greater, extended over thousands of years....not just a few. He/she is probably responsible for more deaths than humanity's worst monsters combined, so much so that I'm hard pressed to think of an analogy. Sort of like Eisenhower granting Stalin a top cabinet position because Stalin cried about having tens of millions of people killed, in some alternative reality where they were best buds in school....but then multiplied by 100+ Yeah, if he let's himself get played he's stupid. And the worst part of it is that he's only being that stupid in order to serve as a plot device. Everywhere else, he's going to be a genius. ____________________ That's my opinion. Think what you want. It's in character for the Doctor to find the hope that his friend can change irresistible. It doesn't mean he's being stupid, it just means the character is perhaps too compassionate, and that has always been shown as his flaw just as much as it is his strength. If a guy who was your childhood friend had committed a load of mass murders and one day he showed regret towards his actions, would you yourself not hope that he had changed and wanted to be a better person?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 24, 2017 13:00:08 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 20:03:30 GMT
Like Empress, now the +7 figures are added, Eaters was the most watched show on any channel last Saturday. 1.7million timeshifted viewers so far.
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Post by mrperson on Jun 26, 2017 20:28:02 GMT
It's in character for the Doctor to find the hope that his friend can change irresistible. It doesn't mean he's being stupid, it just means the character is perhaps too compassionate, and that has always been shown as his flaw just as much as it is his strength. If a guy who was your childhood friend had committed a load of mass murders and one day he showed regret towards his actions, would you yourself not hope that he had changed and wanted to be a better person? If a guy who was my childhood friend had committed a load of mass murders, he can rot in hell....and that for when he isn't burning in it. I rather think some crimes are unforgivable to the point that redemption in this life becomes irrelevant. We're not talking about just a mass murderer. We're talking about a character whose crimes put Stalin in the kiddie league. The business about hoping the Master redeemed would hold more currency for me if Moffat hadn't retconned out the destruction of Gallifrey so he could save Clara and give her a potentially infinite lifespan. And now, His decision got Bill killed and converted. Maybe that wasn't directly foreseeable, but something like that was. Maybe it wasn't Missy who did it directly, but the Master made pretty clear that he was behind Bill's full conversion when speaking to Missy.
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