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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 13:24:56 GMT
We've already seen more than one Time Lord meet each other on-screen with Multi-Doctor specials and it doesn't really do anything to time. The Time Lords themselves even sent the Second Doctor to assist the Third Doctor in taking on Omega! We've never seen what would happen to time if a Time Lord embarked on a romance with an earlier incarnation of himself though. I imagine the damage to time would be catastrophic, and the Doctor's reaction to it would be the same as to how we react to incest: disgusting and all kinds of wrong. I really 100% believe Moffat is about to go this dark with the Multi-Master interaction. This isn't dark it's bizarre. Why would the Master embark on a romantic relationship with him/herself? It's just bizarre. What would it lend to the story anyway? Endless scenes of increasingly cringey flirting and the Doctor just saying this is weird. Why do we need to see what happens if a Time Lord had a romance with their earlier self? It's not a gap in mythology that stands out in the slightest. You think a Time Lord in a romantic relationship with himself isn't dark? I'd hate to know what you consider 'dark'. The Master would do it to create chaos with time. It would be pretty much in character given that he has a big ego.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 13:25:55 GMT
Boredom (and also fear of the Hybrid) Then why bring the Doctor to task and try him? You know, as you would a criminal? Twice. That was to do with his inteferences in time and theft of the TARDIS, not the reason why he left Gallifrey.
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Post by sherlock on Jun 21, 2017 13:27:38 GMT
This isn't dark it's bizarre. Why would the Master embark on a romantic relationship with him/herself? It's just bizarre. What would it lend to the story anyway? Endless scenes of increasingly cringey flirting and the Doctor just saying this is weird. Why do we need to see what happens if a Time Lord had a romance with their earlier self? It's not a gap in mythology that stands out in the slightest. You think a Time Lord having sex with himself isn't dark? I'd hate to know what you consider 'dark'. You just said this would be pre-watershed! Therefore, nil sex. Furrthermore 'dark' implies to me something chilling, like Dark Water's 'Don't Cremate Me'. This concept is just bizarre and twisted. I wouldn't call it dark.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 13:29:59 GMT
Then why bring the Doctor to task and try him? You know, as you would a criminal? Twice. That was to do with his inteferences in time and theft of the TARDIS, not the reason why he left Gallifrey. Isn't one inextricably tied into the other? I'm fairly sure a fully complicit member of the CIA wouldn't have gotten the same kind of trials. If you follow Lungbarrow, he left because he was about to be executed as a loom-jumper. If you don't, then why condemn someone who shares your same views? Following that logic, they'd have given him a pat on the back for his interference and theft of a TARDIS. It would've been a show of initiative.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 13:32:30 GMT
You think a Time Lord having sex with himself isn't dark? I'd hate to know what you consider 'dark'. You just said this would be pre-watershed! Therefore, nil sex. Furrthermore 'dark' implies to me something chilling, like Dark Water's 'Don't Cremate Me'. This concept is just bizarre and twisted. I wouldn't call it dark. I totally would because somebody embarking on a romantic relationship with himself would be very disturbing to watch unfold.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 13:33:33 GMT
That was to do with his inteferences in time and theft of the TARDIS, not the reason why he left Gallifrey. Isn't one inextricably tied into the other? I'm fairly sure a fully complicit member of the CIA wouldn't have gotten the same kind of trials. If you follow Lungbarrow, he left because he was about to be executed as a loom-jumper. If you don't, then why condemn someone who shares your same views? Following that logic, they'd have given him a pat on the back for his interference and theft of a TARDIS. It would've been a show of initiative. I wouldn't say they're linked. 12 said in Heaven Sent he left because he was scared of the Hybrid.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 21, 2017 13:35:23 GMT
The Simm Master loved Lucy Saxon to the point where he married her. I don't think love had anything to do with that pairing. My read of it was they each saw something to gain from marrying the other.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 21, 2017 13:35:42 GMT
But that just levees flirting which is cringe-worthy enough.
No They're either out to kill each other or Missy is revealed as an alternative Master who only exists because of what Simm's doing with the Mondas Cybermen if they just team up to kill the Doctor its too obvious and a waste IMO
Regards
mark687
It doesn't leave flirting. They can have kissing before the watershed, just not sex scenes. That's why the new series uses dancing as a euphemism for sex. Your not going to convince me its a workable idea in any way, shape or form
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 13:40:53 GMT
Isn't one inextricably tied into the other? I'm fairly sure a fully complicit member of the CIA wouldn't have gotten the same kind of trials. If you follow Lungbarrow, he left because he was about to be executed as a loom-jumper. If you don't, then why condemn someone who shares your same views? Following that logic, they'd have given him a pat on the back for his interference and theft of a TARDIS. It would've been a show of initiative. I wouldn't say they're linked. 12 said in Heaven Sent he left because he was scared of the Hybrid. Now, there was a nonsense story arc. Like a cat's cradle dipped in treacle and sprayed with tar. I don't buy it, it'd be like running away from home because you were scared of the story of the Evil Queen from Snow White. Not one of Moffat's best ideas, not by a long shot. You just said this would be pre-watershed! Therefore, nil sex. Furthermore 'dark' implies to me something chilling, like Dark Water's 'Don't Cremate Me'. This concept is just bizarre and twisted. I wouldn't call it dark. Dark would be a later incarnation lynching an earlier one in the most excruciating way possible to spark off his regeneration. Watching the light drain from his eyes and gently reassuring him that it's all for the best cause possible. That to me is a seriously dark horror. Country matters are just squicky, I don't think Time Lords like being reminded they're flesh and blood. Or mortal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 13:42:11 GMT
The Simm Master loved Lucy Saxon to the point where he married her. I don't think love had anything to do with that pairing. My read of it was they each saw something to gain from marrying the other. Yep. You cannot convince me that any marriage is healthy or loving if the wife thinks it a good idea to pick up a gun and shoot her husband.
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Post by sherlock on Jun 21, 2017 13:46:09 GMT
You just said this would be pre-watershed! Therefore, nil sex. Furrthermore 'dark' implies to me something chilling, like Dark Water's 'Don't Cremate Me'. This concept is just bizarre and twisted. I wouldn't call it dark. I totally would because somebody embarking on a romantic relationship with himself would be very disturbing to watch unfold. Really not selling the idea. Yeah it might be disturbing to watch, but is it actually entertaining? All it would end up being is flirting, which gets very annoying very quickly. (As for references to 'dancing' you mention elsewhere in this thread, I can't remember that euphemism being used since The Doctor Dances) I just don't see what's gained from it story-wise. Missy and the Master will have an interesting enough dynamic without it, the Cybermen are also doing something and the Doctor, Bill and Nardole are also involved. There's simply no need.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 21, 2017 13:51:10 GMT
I don't think love had anything to do with that pairing. My read of it was they each saw something to gain from marrying the other. Yep. You cannot convince me that any marriage is healthy or loving if the wife thinks it a good idea to pick up a gun and shoot her husband. Yeah. Further, I think it was pretty clear that Lucy Saxon was the victim of physical and emotional abuse from the Master. (Which is not to say that abusive relationships don't grow out of relationships that were once based on love and respect, just that it clearly was not a healthy relationship at the time that it ended.)
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Post by sherlock on Jun 21, 2017 14:01:56 GMT
I wouldn't say they're linked. 12 said in Heaven Sent he left because he was scared of the Hybrid. Now, there was a nonsense story arc. Like a cat's cradle dipped in treacle and sprayed with tar. I don't buy it, it'd be like running away from home because you were scared of the story of the Evil Queen from Snow White. Not one of Moffat's best ideas, not by a long shot. You just said this would be pre-watershed! Therefore, nil sex. Furthermore 'dark' implies to me something chilling, like Dark Water's 'Don't Cremate Me'. This concept is just bizarre and twisted. I wouldn't call it dark. Dark would be a later incarnation lynching an earlier one in the most excruciating way possible to spark off his regeneration. Watching the light drain from his eyes and gently reassuring him that it's all for the best cause possible. That to me is a seriously dark horror. Country matters are just squicky, I don't think Time Lords like being reminded they're flesh and blood. Or mortal. Now that is dark.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 14:03:08 GMT
I don't think love had anything to do with that pairing. My read of it was they each saw something to gain from marrying the other. Yep. You cannot convince me that any marriage is healthy or loving if the wife thinks it a good idea to pick up a gun and shoot her husband. That was only after she realised she didn't agree with what the Master was doing.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 14:06:45 GMT
I totally would because somebody embarking on a romantic relationship with himself would be very disturbing to watch unfold. Really not selling the idea. Yeah it might be disturbing to watch, but is it actually entertaining? All it would end up being is flirting, which gets very annoying very quickly. (As for references to 'dancing' you mention elsewhere in this thread, I can't remember that euphemism being used since The Doctor Dances) I just don't see what's gained from it story-wise. Missy and the Master will have an interesting enough dynamic without it, the Cybermen are also doing something and the Doctor, Bill and Nardole are also involved. There's simply no need. I think it would be a thought-provoking piece of drama if Moffat did it. For me it would be unsettling in an enjoyable way, just as Humans is interesting to watch because of the way the Synths unsettle you. What would be gained? The consequences to the Web of Time such a relationship would cause. That to me would be interesting.
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Post by constonks on Jun 21, 2017 14:54:58 GMT
I'll honestly be surprised if Moffat doesn't have one or two flirty lines between them. It won't be a plot point or relationship or anything, it'll be a joke. Like Amy hitting on herself.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 16:29:17 GMT
Really not selling the idea. Yeah it might be disturbing to watch, but is it actually entertaining? All it would end up being is flirting, which gets very annoying very quickly. (As for references to 'dancing' you mention elsewhere in this thread, I can't remember that euphemism being used since The Doctor Dances) I just don't see what's gained from it story-wise. Missy and the Master will have an interesting enough dynamic without it, the Cybermen are also doing something and the Doctor, Bill and Nardole are also involved. There's simply no need. I think it would be a thought-provoking piece of drama if Moffat did it. For me it would be unsettling in an enjoyable way, just as Humans is interesting to watch because of the way the Synths unsettle you. What would be gained? The consequences to the Web of Time such a relationship would cause. That to me would be interesting. Not exactly Saturday family viewing though. More of a Torchwood storyline than a Doctor Who one.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 17:14:54 GMT
I think it would be a thought-provoking piece of drama if Moffat did it. For me it would be unsettling in an enjoyable way, just as Humans is interesting to watch because of the way the Synths unsettle you. What would be gained? The consequences to the Web of Time such a relationship would cause. That to me would be interesting. Not exactly Saturday family viewing though. More of a Torchwood storyline than a Doctor Who one. I disagree. They could easily do it pre-watershed.
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Post by sherlock on Jun 21, 2017 18:03:04 GMT
Really not selling the idea. Yeah it might be disturbing to watch, but is it actually entertaining? All it would end up being is flirting, which gets very annoying very quickly. (As for references to 'dancing' you mention elsewhere in this thread, I can't remember that euphemism being used since The Doctor Dances) I just don't see what's gained from it story-wise. Missy and the Master will have an interesting enough dynamic without it, the Cybermen are also doing something and the Doctor, Bill and Nardole are also involved. There's simply no need. I think it would be a thought-provoking piece of drama if Moffat did it. For me it would be unsettling in an enjoyable way, just as Humans is interesting to watch because of the way the Synths unsettle you. What would be gained? The consequences to the Web of Time such a relationship would cause. That to me would be interesting. Consequences to the Web of Time would probably just be realised the way they were in Hell Bent, a bunch of people talking about how terrible it is but no actual depiction of why it's bad. That's why I'm kind of sick of 'damage to Time' stories. It's so unfathomable and difficult to depict. There's been four series finales based around breaking Time now ( The Big Bang, The Wedding of River Song, The Name of the Doctor, Hell Bent) and truth be told I'd rather we got back to finales where we can actually see what's at stake and what the consequences of this threat will be. I can't see how it would be dramatic either. Where's the drama? The Master loves him/herself and flirts, meanwhile the Doctor goes eww and rants about damage to Time. That's pretty much all I can see coming from this.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jun 21, 2017 18:28:00 GMT
I think it would be a thought-provoking piece of drama if Moffat did it. For me it would be unsettling in an enjoyable way, just as Humans is interesting to watch because of the way the Synths unsettle you. What would be gained? The consequences to the Web of Time such a relationship would cause. That to me would be interesting. Consequences to the Web of Time would probably just be realised the way they were in Hell Bent, a bunch of people talking about how terrible it is but no actual depiction of why it's bad. That's why I'm kind of sick of 'damage to Time' stories. It's so unfathomable and difficult to depict. There's been four series finales based around breaking Time now ( The Big Bang, The Wedding of River Song, The Name of the Doctor, Hell Bent) and truth be told I'd rather we got back to finales where we can actually see what's at stake and what the consequences of this threat will be. I can't see how it would be dramatic either. Where's the drama? The Master loves him/herself and flirts, meanwhile the Doctor goes eww and rants about damage to Time. That's pretty much all I can see coming from this. The music would be used to make the audience see it as disgusting. We would be shown the idea of it being wrong like incest, and the breaking up of time I believe Moffat will do by showing multiple variations of Cybermen co-exist ing.
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