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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jul 6, 2017 19:27:02 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 19:44:44 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? No. I don't think so. I'm on record as being open to the idea but I don't think anyone who holds the opposite view is sexist, though I'm sure a small minority are - just as a small minority of any group will be sexist, racist, homophobic etc. I'd rather cast the actor not the gender. If they can get Ruth Wilson, Olivia Colman, Natalie Dormer or the like...sign me up. I don't think it will be a lady this time but those names I posted... man I'd be happier with them than any of the guys mooted as frontrunners. Unles Chiwitel Ejifor wants the job.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 6, 2017 19:54:41 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? Well, that's a complicated question, isn't it? I'd be more interested in hearing about the path that led you to that conclusion than in the conclusion itself.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 6, 2017 20:05:00 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? Only if the reason you don't want a female Doctor is because of negative stereotypical views you have about women. I'm not sure I want to go on about my reasons at great length, but I don't see any in-universe need to have a female Doctor. I'm not aware of any in-universe reason. In fact, it seems to me like Moffat largely inserted sex-change regeneration into the show so that he could play it for gags. Quips about the Corsair, The General complaining about having been a man, the Master/Missy scene where Master says "By the way, is it ok if?" then looks down at his crotch, as they're pressed together; all the other flirty garbage. Jokes about the doctor being a girl at the academy (even though 1st Doctor was male...so, whatever to that). Master playing with eyeliner. Oh right, and Missy standing with the Doctor because women supposedly have more empathy (sexist in itself). There's been absolutely zero exploration of how accidental sex-change regenerations might affect a society, or anything like that. Just cheap gags. Maybe Chinball would treat it more maturely, I don't know. Ether way, I still see absolutely no in-universe reason to do it. I think if it's done, it'll largely be done for the same out-universe reason that various things are getting rebooted with female-cast instead of male cast or cartoon characters who were male being rebooted as female (all female ghost busters; female ironman, etc). They're not doing it because they're really interested in exploring how the old stories could play out differently through the eyes of a woman. They're doing it because there really was a whole lot of sexism, and that's why all these old strong characters were male. Instead of simply coming up with more and more strong female leads in new works, over time, they're essentially trying to fight sexism by re-appropriating strong male leads that might have been female in the past but for the sexism. I don't like that very much, and I'd particularly like them to at least keep away from Doctor Who. I certainly think having diversity across the entire spectrum of entertainment is a good goal. Why lock anyone out of a type of role? But I rather resent the idea of changing the sex of a lead character who has always been male simply to make a real-world statement about equality, which is exactly what it will be no matter who the actress if they do it in Who. It's doubly worse to my eyes when they do it and then just play it for gags, which is precisely what Moffat did. If anything, that insults the cause of fighting "-isms." It's not like I'll turn off the TV in a bout of petulance. I'll still watch it. But I'll be annoyed if there isn't a rather good in-universe reason for it to happen, and I doubt there will be.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 20:55:43 GMT
'Human beings, no matter brilliant they may be, are always within contact with other human beings.'
Well, something like that, anyway.
Some Who fans are incredibly passionate about what should happen to their show. Some are fiercely adamant that the next Doctor should be a woman. They want you to think that too. If you don't agree with them, they will call you a name. 'Sexist' is quite an emotive name. That'll do. Hopefully, you will then feel bad about disagreeing with them.
Of course, others are equally passionate the character should continue to be male. The only word I have seen them use against people who disagree with them - more an abbreviation actually - is 'PC nut'.
It's all name-calling, really, from people who should perhaps have more to worry about. Me? I'm no less trivial-minded than any of these people, but I'm just glad the show is continuing.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 6, 2017 21:52:40 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? The short answer: no. The long: Much as I detest repeating myself, here goes - The internet has a tendency to make things seem bigger and more in demand than they really are. I'm not against a female Doctor, but between the dismal performance of things like Ghostbusters, the Marvel diversity push (even Wonder Woman managed to get stuck in the quagmire with its poorly thought 'female only' screenings in Texas) and the violent acid pit that is the online culture war, I'd argue now is the absolute wrong time to do it. It'd overshadow the actress and put them under a political light that, frankly, no actor should have to experience in their career, and one that the show does not need to be embroiled in. Chibnall has indicated he wants to create a show autonomous from its internet fandom, not interested in courting hashtags, memes or gifs but rather, quality storytelling that demands viewers attention and isn't just reheating 50+ years of nostalgia. Inviting the online culture war to Who's door would not only date the era massively, it would be a nightmare for the BBC's PR. I'm certainly not against it, but the fact that there are female fans who say they don't care about or don't want a Female Doctor shows this isn't a cut and dry affair of sexism.
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Post by kimalysong on Jul 6, 2017 22:05:57 GMT
Wonder Woman was a huge success though so that's a really bad example to say female leads do not work.
Anyways I don't want the Doctor to be a woman just to be a woman but I also have not seen a legitimate reason why the Doctor shouldn't be female. To me most reasons against a female Doctor are in fact inherently sexist. But that doesn't mean I think someone is sexist because they feel this way.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 22:39:28 GMT
Wonder Woman was a huge success so that's a really bad example to say female leads do not work. To be fair to most of the people I've seen who don't want a female Doctor, that doesn't tend to be the main reason they give. Off the top of my head, Charles gives one of the best defences I've ever read of why it needs to be a male - because of the lack of even remotely pacifist role models for boys (he tells it better!) yet I'm still on the other side of the fence. Related to Josh's response that it all depends on why someone doesn't want a female Doc, one of the most sexist things I've ever seen in Who fandom was on here. I won't relay it but it was horrid and shows that there is an element of sexism for some saying no to a female Doc. I've said it before on the forum but my main rationale is that I'd hate any young girl to think that she could never play The Doctor. She can be the one to ask The Doctor for help. He can give her a lift. He can invite her in and ask her to leave. She takes orders. He tells her what's what. Seems a bit old-hat now. She can pilot the Millenium Falcon, be a Starfleet Captain, upstage Batman and Superman, bring down the Hunger Games...but she can't fly the TARDIS. That seems so out of step when looking at the pop culture landscape in 2017. If nothing else, if a woman is cast we never need to have this again, as we get it every time there's a new Doctor coming. We'd need to be braced for all sorts of nonsense though. The first even remotely average rating would be blown farther out of proportion than crisis talk already is.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 6, 2017 22:46:14 GMT
Wonder Woman was a huge success so that's a really bad example to say female leads do not work. To be fair to most of the people I've seen who don't want a female Doctor, that doesn't tend to be the main reason they give. Off the top of my head, Charles gives one of the best defences I've ever read of why it needs to be a male - because of the lack of even remotely pacifist role models for boys (he tells it better!) yet I'm still on the other side of the fence. Related to Josh's response that it all depends on why someone doesn't want a female Doc, one of the most sexist things I've ever seen in Who fandom was on here. I won't relay it but it was horrid and shows that there is an element of sexism for some saying no to a female Doc. I've said it before on the forum but my main rationale is that I'd hate any young girl to think that she could never play The Doctor. She can be the one to ask The Doctor for help. He can give her a lift. He can invite her in and ask her to leave. She takes orders. He tells her what's what. Seems a bit old-hat now. She can pilot the Millenium Falcon, be a Starfleet Captain, upstage Batman and Superman, bring down the Hunger Games...but she can't fly the TARDIS. That seems so out of step when looking at the pop culture landscape in 2017. If nothing else, if a woman is cast we never need to have this again, as we get it every time there's a new Doctor coming. We'd need to be braced for all sorts of nonsense though. The first even remotely average rating would be blown farther out of proportion than crisis talk already is. Related to Josh's response that it all depends on why someone doesn't want a female Doc, one of the most sexist things I've ever seen in Who fandom was on here. I won't relay it but it was horrid and shows that there is an element of sexism for some saying no to a female Doc.
That wasn't from me was it?
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 22:52:55 GMT
To be fair to most of the people I've seen who don't want a female Doctor, that doesn't tend to be the main reason they give. Off the top of my head, Charles gives one of the best defences I've ever read of why it needs to be a male - because of the lack of even remotely pacifist role models for boys (he tells it better!) yet I'm still on the other side of the fence. Related to Josh's response that it all depends on why someone doesn't want a female Doc, one of the most sexist things I've ever seen in Who fandom was on here. I won't relay it but it was horrid and shows that there is an element of sexism for some saying no to a female Doc. I've said it before on the forum but my main rationale is that I'd hate any young girl to think that she could never play The Doctor. She can be the one to ask The Doctor for help. He can give her a lift. He can invite her in and ask her to leave. She takes orders. He tells her what's what. Seems a bit old-hat now. She can pilot the Millenium Falcon, be a Starfleet Captain, upstage Batman and Superman, bring down the Hunger Games...but she can't fly the TARDIS. That seems so out of step when looking at the pop culture landscape in 2017. If nothing else, if a woman is cast we never need to have this again, as we get it every time there's a new Doctor coming. We'd need to be braced for all sorts of nonsense though. The first even remotely average rating would be blown farther out of proportion than crisis talk already is. Related to Josh's response that it all depends on why someone doesn't want a female Doc, one of the most sexist things I've ever seen in Who fandom was on here. I won't relay it but it was horrid and shows that there is an element of sexism for some saying no to a female Doc.
That wasn't from me was it?
Regards
mark687
No - this was one that was actually removed by a mod and was by a poster who was making the place rather nasty for a while but has since vanished. . It was rather more explicit than yours - which I disagreed with massively but I wouldn't even repeat theirs it was so crass.
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Post by Whovitt on Jul 6, 2017 23:17:21 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? Well, that's a complicated question, isn't it? I'd be more interested in hearing about the path that led you to that conclusion than in the conclusion itself. I agree with this 100%! It's not whether or not you want it, it's why. I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and was considering making a thread like this myself; I guess I'll just post my thoughts here as it seems appropriate. I don't want a female Doctor, but mainly for purely personal reasons (this will be a very self indulgent post, but it's necessary to truly explain my feelings). When I was growing up, Doctor Who was being repeated here in Australia on Monday to Thursdays nights at 6pm. I was about five or six at the time, and so not many of the other children I was starting to attend school with were watching it - I only knew one other kid, and we quickly became close friends for the next five or six years. The trouble is he was my only friend, because I had a favourite thing that none of the other kids knew or cared about, and as it was science fiction (not that any of us knew what that phrase even meant at that age), I was dubbed a 'nerd' and pretty much became an outcast. This continued for my entire primary school life. When I reached high school I ended up in a different school to all the people I'd grown up with, and I'd hoped to start afresh - no such luck. Although I reached high school in 2010, Doctor Who still wasn't big with people of my age group; again, I was outcast, this time with no real friends, rather people who reluctantly tolerated me. In Year 3 of primary school my parents had divorced. This shattered everything I had come to understand about the world up to that point. Any stability I had had was gone, and there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. The emotional toll this had impacted on my already pitiful social life at school, and I started to get into more arguments (not fights, per se) with other students. By the time I reached high school, my fuse was very short and I would end up snapping on a much more regular basis. You might be wondering what this has to do with anything? Well, while all this was going on - struggles at school, divorce, etc. - I had one thing I could always rely on: Doctor Who. If ever I needed to get away from it all, I could grab one of those DVDs and get pulled away by the Doctor, to wherever I wanted to go (whichever story I wanted to watch). And even though the actor changed it didn't matter, because he was always the same man. And that's the key to my point: he was always the same man. It was the only thing that I had to hold on to, the only stability. His being male was the only constant that I, as a child, knew I could always rely on; this has become such a deep-rooted part of my personality that I cannot hope to change it - the character has an identity, and if that identity were to change... well, I simply couldn't accept it as the same character (this is the same issue I have with Missy: she is "Missy", not "the Master"; they changed the identity of the character, and my brain cannot reconcile that they are one and the same). So, there's my long-winded explanation. Obviously, I don't expect that other people agree with me (I doubt my reasons are common ones), but I think it is a good and fair example of why someone would not want a female Doctor without there being any sexist reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 23:37:00 GMT
Well, that's a complicated question, isn't it? I'd be more interested in hearing about the path that led you to that conclusion than in the conclusion itself. I agree with this 100%! It's not whether or not you want it, it's why. I've been thinking about this a lot recently, and was considering making a thread like this myself; I guess I'll just post my thoughts here as it seems appropriate. I don't want a female Doctor, but mainly for purely personal reasons (this will be a very self indulgent post, but it's necessary to truly explain my feelings). When I was growing up, Doctor Who was being repeated here in Australia on Monday to Thursdays nights at 6pm. I was about five or six at the time, and so not many of the other children I was starting to attend school with were watching it - I only knew one other kid, and we quickly became close friends for the next five or six years. The trouble is he was my only friend, because I had a favourite thing that none of the other kids knew or cared about, and as it was science fiction (not that any of us knew what that phrase even meant at that age), I was dubbed a 'nerd' and pretty much became an outcast. This continued for my entire primary school life. When I reached high school I ended up in a different school to all the people I'd grown up with, and I'd hoped to start afresh - no such luck. Although I reached high school in 2010, Doctor Who still wasn't big with people of my age group; again, I was outcast, this time with no real friends, rather people who reluctantly tolerated me. In Year 3 of primary school my parents had divorced. This shattered everything I had come to understand about the world up to that point. Any stability I had had was gone, and there was no longer any ground beneath my feet. The emotional toll this had impacted on my already pitiful social life at school, and I started to get into more arguments (not fights, per se) with other students. By the time I reached high school, my fuse was very short and I would end up snapping on a much more regular basis. You might be wondering what this has to do with anything? Well, while all this was going on - struggles at school, divorce, etc. - I had one thing I could always rely on: Doctor Who. If ever I needed to get away from it all, I could grab one of those DVDs and get pulled away by the Doctor, to wherever I wanted to go (whichever story I wanted to watch). And even though the actor changed it didn't matter, because he was always the same man. And that's the key to my point: he was always the same man. It was the only thing that I had to hold on to, the only stability. His being male was the only constant that I, as a child, knew I could always rely on; this has become such a deep-rooted part of my personality that I cannot hope to change it - the character has an identity, and if that identity were to change... well, I simply couldn't accept it as the same character (this is the same issue I have with Missy: she is "Missy", not "the Master"; they changed the identity of the character, and my brain cannot reconcile that they are one and the same). So, there's my long-winded explanation. Obviously, I don't expect that other people agree with me (I doubt my reasons are common ones), but I think it is a good and fair example of why someone would not want a female Doctor without there being any sexist reasons. Thanks very much for such a personal post, Whovitt, it was one of the best I've read on the matter and gave me more context on the wider debate. Again, like when Charles posted before I'm on the opposite side from you but I think it's a brilliant post that perfectly illustrates that there are many reasons to be on either side, and it's not just as simple as "Sexists" or "Progressives". It reminds me of a guy I grew up with, Jamie, who idolised Jean Luc Picard as he wasn't just the Star Trek captain, he was the closest thing to a male role model he had growing up with a single mum and being taught by women. He enjoyed Voyager for what it was but he didn't need Kathryn Janeway....she was just a character. Picard was much, much more. Of course we didn't phrase it like that as teens. It's interesting that identity plays such a part as I'm 100% with Moffat in that "They're all The Doctor" but then... I've never had a problem splitting their identities. That's perhaps contradictory. They're all totally The Doctor and they're all totally different. In essence...I guess I could accept Phoebe-Waller Bridge is the same person as David Tennant just as easily as I could that Matt Smith is the same as Jon Pertwee, in fact probably a lot more so.
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Post by kimalysong on Jul 6, 2017 23:59:29 GMT
See even saying guys need personal heroes like the Doctor doesn't work for me because don't girls deserve those heroes too? And having a female Doctor doesn't take away from the 12 male Doctors we already do have. And having a female Doctor doesn't mean there will never be a another male Doctor ever again either. So saying guys needs role models like the Doctor makes it sound like female role models are secondary. Why can't girls have role models like the Doctor?
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Post by number13 on Jul 7, 2017 0:05:46 GMT
I guess I could accept Phoebe-Waller Bridge is the same person as David Tennant just as easily as I could that Matt Smith is the same as Jon Pertwee, in fact probably a lot more so. Yes, I feel the same. It's hard to accept that any of the others can really be be the same as Jon Pertwee's Third Doctor. But at least we had a Doctor like him that one time, if only to show that the Doctor could be so incomparably fabulous as he was for those five glorious years, even if it can never happen again...
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Post by mrperson on Jul 7, 2017 0:08:20 GMT
See even saying guys need personal heroes like the Doctor doesn't work for me because don't girls deserve those heroes too? And having a female Doctor doesn't take away from the 12 male Doctors we already do have. And having a female Doctor doesn't mean there will never be a another make Doctor ever again either. So saying guys needs role models like the Doctor makes it sound like female role models are secondary. Why can't girls have role models like the Doctor? Oh, they definitely can/should/do. No one should be excluded from lead roles on the basis of such a classification. Maybe I'm seeing it differently, but I think the solution boils down to an analysis of whether (1) we provide females with more role models by dropping sexism from casting in general going forward, or (2) we speed it up by picking out shows individually and changing the sex of a strong lead from male to female. I would prefer #1 (and I would actually include things like creating various Star Trek series over time, and including more females any other such categories in lead roles). Anyway, if 13 is female, I'm pretty sure my only complaints here will be if it's just played for gags. If anything, I think that would counter the overall purpose of increasing lead diversity.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 0:11:28 GMT
See even saying guys need personal heroes like the Doctor doesn't work for me because don't girls deserve those heroes too? And having a female Doctor doesn't take away from the 12 male Doctors we already do have. And having a female Doctor doesn't mean there will never be a another make Doctor ever again either. So saying guys needs role models like the Doctor makes it sound like female role models are secondary. Why can't girls have role models like the Doctor? Not sure which of us you're responding to but - again - I'm 100% in favour of a female Doctor and I outlined that that quite plainly in what I wrote above about Star Wars, Trek, Hunger Games etc where I specifically addressed that young girls should have the exact same chances to not only have a role model but to be the role model.
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Post by kimalysong on Jul 7, 2017 0:23:20 GMT
See even saying guys need personal heroes like the Doctor doesn't work for me because don't girls deserve those heroes too? And having a female Doctor doesn't take away from the 12 male Doctors we already do have. And having a female Doctor doesn't mean there will never be a another make Doctor ever again either. So saying guys needs role models like the Doctor makes it sound like female role models are secondary. Why can't girls have role models like the Doctor? Not sure which of us you're responding to but - again - I'm 100% in favour of a female Doctor and I outlined that that quite plainly in what I wrote above about Star Wars, Trek, Hunger Games etc where I specifically addressed that young girls should have the exact same chances to not only have a role model but to be the role model. I was responding to that argument. I understand that you personally support a female Doctor. I am just explaining that for me the above is not a legitimate argument against a female Doctor. And while I don't think it's intentional it also comes off a bit sexist.
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Post by jasonward on Jul 7, 2017 0:40:30 GMT
I'd prefer there not to be a female Doctor, why? Because I can't see it working in my mind, well at least that's my emotional response, the more rational side of me tells me I would likely be surprised, Missy has been nothing short of brilliant as a character, and if that level of acting and character portrayal was in a female Doctor I would love it.
For me, it's not sexist to have a preference, what becomes sexist is to believe or to try and convince others, that your preference exists for "out there, in the world" reason, when in fact your preference comes from "in there, in my head".
We all have preferences in all sorts of walks of life, and long may that be so, but don't get upset or outraged or angry when someone else's preference comes to the fore and yours gets pushed to the back.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 0:50:00 GMT
I do imagine that if - and on a long enough scale I think it's "when" not "if" -it happens, a good chunk of those opposed to the idea, even staunchly, would calm down once we get an actual name attached. It becomes tangible after being the endlessly debated hypothetical of fandom. It would stop being "a woman" and become "Phoebe", "Olivia" or whoever. There would still be dissent but, well, isn't there always?
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Post by apdalek22 on Jul 7, 2017 1:47:17 GMT
See even saying guys need personal heroes like the Doctor doesn't work for me because don't girls deserve those heroes too? And having a female Doctor doesn't take away from the 12 male Doctors we already do have. And having a female Doctor doesn't mean there will never be a another male Doctor ever again either. So saying guys needs role models like the Doctor makes it sound like female role models are secondary. Why can't girls have role models like the Doctor? This is where i never understand this argument....why do men have to lose their heroes for women to gain them....why cant heroea be made for both sexes....why cant the bbc create a show with an adventurous female protagonist....ive never watched female heroes and thought man i wish Buffy or Wonder Woman was a male....I understand that the Doctor changes appearance, but to me its no different than saying well superman has been a male for 50 years so lets make a version as a women....at this point making the Doctor a woman will hold no meaning other than saying here ya go ladies we gave you one, i dont think it serves the show or character...i feel like Moffit adding in the sex changes as mostly confused things....why would it take the Doctor so many regenerations to become female and the same with the master...just my thoughts
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