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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jul 7, 2017 20:10:22 GMT
While all this debate is welcome and interesting, let's not forget the original question:
TinDog shouldn't feel bullied, intimidated or peer-pressured over his choice of Doctor under any circumstance. He hasn't said anything disgusting or sexist towards women or our female members, and I feel it's important for us not to be, unfairly, making any undue marks against character, even if accidental. We are and should be better than that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 20:19:31 GMT
Why don't you just make good female characters, of whom are original rather than leeching off more successful ones who are male? Because then you'll be accused, and rightly so, of ripping off ideas from Doctor Who. Yeah, the "create a new female icon" argument never works for me. It's not terribly easy to just create a TV show much less a phenomenon which runs for decades with a worldwide fandom. It's saying that any guy can be cast as The Doctor and instantly earn big bucks and be world-renowned but a woman has to start from scratch with a pilot, hope it works, goes to series, catches on, sells to international markets and generates merch, magazines and all sorts of indicators of success. How many shows get to that level of success? If the Beeb knew how to just make a show like that...we'd never have seen Atlantis flop.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 7, 2017 20:44:46 GMT
While all this debate is welcome and interesting, let's not forget the original question: TinDog shouldn't feel bullied, intimidated or peer-pressured over his choice of Doctor under any circumstance. He hasn't said anything disgusting or sexist towards women or our female members, and I feel it's important for us not to be, unfairly, making any undue marks against character, even if accidental. We are and should be better than that. Well said. And I'll add that we're kind of conflating two ideas that aren't quite the same thing. "Do you want a female Doctor?" and "Is it possible for a woman to play the Doctor?" are two different questions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 21:20:25 GMT
While all this debate is welcome and interesting, let's not forget the original question: TinDog shouldn't feel bullied, intimidated or peer-pressured over his choice of Doctor under any circumstance. He hasn't said anything disgusting or sexist towards women or our female members, and I feel it's important for us not to be, unfairly, making any undue marks against character, even if accidental. We are and should be better than that. Well said. And I'll add that we're kind of conflating two ideas that aren't quite the same thing. "Do you want a female Doctor?" and "Is it possible for a woman to play the Doctor?" are two different questions. Exactly. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to believe that the reservations don't lie with a female incarnation, but with her writers instead. Part of the reason why Cathy Gale worked so well was because Honour Blackman came to the Avengers writers and asked that she essentially be written as a man; i.e. that her gender didn't come into it. And that produced a marvellous character, even cemented the idea of a whole archetype -- the Avengers girl -- that would pop up in all kinds of places, including Doctor Who and more recently, the superheroes franchise of the same name. Role models always run afoul of that concept that they must be perfect and the results can be very nasty for the character because he/she comes across as a two-dimensional cutout. That's what I think people are wary of. If writers treat the character as a character (like her male counterparts) and not a pedestal to dump unrealistic expectations on (the First Doctor taught me that even heroes make mistakes), then by all means give us a female incarnation.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 7, 2017 22:48:43 GMT
Exactly. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to believe that the reservations don't lie with a female incarnation, but with her writers instead. Part of the reason why Cathy Gale worked so well was because Honour Blackman came to the Avengers writers and asked that she essentially be written as a man; i.e. that her gender didn't come into it. And that produced a marvellous character, even cemented the idea of a whole archetype -- the Avengers girl -- that would pop up in all kinds of places, including Doctor Who and more recently, the superheroes franchise of the same name. Role models always run afoul of that concept that they must be perfect and the results can be very nasty for the character because he/she comes across as a two-dimensional cutout. That's what I think people are wary of. Yeah. I'm thinking of Wonder Woman. The movie was great, but man does she have a rocky history in the comics. With a couple exceptions (Gail Simone, Greg Rucka) even the people writing her never seemed to know who she was. The problem was that as the highest profile female superhero, she had to be all things to all women and there was no room left for any personality of her own. If writers treat the character as a character (like her male counterparts) and not a pedestal to dump unrealistic expectations on (the First Doctor taught me that even heroes make mistakes), then by all means give us a female incarnation.
“Here lies a toppled god. His fall was not a small one. We did but build his pedestal, A narrow and a tall one.”
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Post by Ela on Jul 7, 2017 22:51:17 GMT
It's more fundamental. I'm doubting myself I have well thought out arguments about the need for a positive non violent male role model and stuff like that but... Am I just defending an emotional response with fancy window dressing. I know there is now nothing... in show... to stop it. Maybe it's because my wife says she won't watch it with a female doctor as it's just pandering to Americans. .. or something... But it comes down to me... worrying that I may actually be something I've actively fought against my whole life. It's messing with my head. Why is it pandering to Americans? That confuses me. I don't see only Americans saying they would like to see a female Doctor.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jul 8, 2017 0:53:41 GMT
Well said. And I'll add that we're kind of conflating two ideas that aren't quite the same thing. "Do you want a female Doctor?" and "Is it possible for a woman to play the Doctor?" are two different questions. Exactly. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to believe that the reservations don't lie with a female incarnation, but with her writers instead. That's probably about where my reservations lie - I still don't trust the New Series (or a lot of media, actually) to take a "progressive" idea and actually be "progressive" with it. I still think it's just as likely that a female Doctor is going to come out a big bag of unflattering female stereotypes from minute one in order to tick the "humor" box off on the checklist I think they already did some things with Bill's orientation just for giggles, that's one of a number of things they just couldn't seem to resist, just like there seemed to be a number of things they just couldn't seem to resist doing with Missy being a woman, as if being uber-prissy is just supposed to come with the hips and I don't know how that is respectful of women even if Missy herself might have been a very progressive gesture. I think it took the better part of a season and probably some hard work just to get back on track with Missy after that - at least for me, it did. How about Donna? Her moment of being Doctor-like was absolutely awesome. If I didn't think I'd be exhausted just watching such an animated character for a whole season, I'd demand a Doctor just like that - but by the end, it seemed to turn into "girls can't handle being The Doctor, their fragile little brains would catch fire" and suddenly the whole thing didn't seem quite so respectful to me anymore. Can the show really and truly keep up a respectful tone toward diversity for a whole season? I don't think I'd have any issues if it really did, but I'm still not optimistic. In addition to my misgivings that the show just may not do justice to the idea, though, I'd personally sort of like The Doctor to remain a male, just in the very same way I'd like the TARDIS to remain blue and Superman's cape to stay red, and Wonder Woman to remain a woman. If The Doctor had been a woman all this time, I'd most likely prefer him to stay a woman. That's hopefully a lot more to do just with me being a stick-in-the-mud than sexist, and simply wanting what I like to remain consistent? I at least like to think I could look up to a female Doctor as a role model just as easily as a number of female companions that I already look up to. I do think, though, that there's still a shortage of male heroic figures that don't try to solve everything with a slugfest or an arsenal, and I think that's a hugely important lesson for any potential role model to impart, that violence may not be the answer to everything. I'm sure we should have more and better female heroic figures, and I think a lot of care should be put into creating or developing them, whereas simply dishing out gender changes to existing characters feels like a lot like the opposite to me. It may be terribly unfair of me, but that's about what I think of Marvel these days is that they seem to be getting in the habit of turning established characters into tokens instead of trying to be genuinely innovative and progressive. I hope and pray such a thing never happens to The Doctor. If they make him a woman, I want them to make me glad they did, I want them to make me think it was a great idea, and I want them to do all of womankind proud - not subject us all to an endless slew of stereotypical girlie gags. Please!!! :-)
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 8, 2017 1:07:29 GMT
All I know is at its core, in its DNA if you will, Doctor Who is a show built on change. Change is how the show has survived and thrived for 50+ years. Bearing that in mind, and knowing that according to the show, Time=Lords can switch gender, pick faces and the like, that the show has not featured a female Doctor speaks to how slowly society and the entertainment that informs it has been in responding to women in the workplace and gender equality. A female Doctor very much becomes a statement, and a rather positive one in my mind. A female Doctor is still The Doctor and should be a role model to humans of any gender, race & religion who care about decency and intelligence and humor and doing the right thing and all the things The Doctor has and continues to stand for. From a creative angle, a female Doctor allows writers to still have The Doctor do Doctor-like things but to tell the story in a slightly different way. Change or die. Move forward or move backwards, there is no such thing as standing still.
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Post by elgranto on Jul 8, 2017 2:49:27 GMT
What Moffat said about "gender being fluid on Gallifrey" has me wondering why the Doctor hasn't been female already. Did he leave Gallifrey at a time when regenerating into a different gender was an uncommon or rare occurrence? Or has he always been capable of changing gender and some unseen force has prevented him from doing so? Maybe the new cycle of regenerations he received on Trenzalore will finally allow it to happen? And when the time comes that the Doctor does becomes female (it's inevitable) should any explanation be given as to why he's regenerated into a male twelve times? Should it even be addressed?
I for one have warmed to the idea of a female Doctor provided that it's done right. Does not wanting a female Doctor make you sexist? Not necessarily. Everyone has their reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 8:38:07 GMT
What Moffat said about "gender being fluid on Gallifrey" has me wondering why the Doctor hasn't been female already. Did he leave Gallifrey at a time when regenerating into a different gender was an uncommon or rare occurrence? Or has he always been capable of changing gender and some unseen force has prevented him from doing so? Maybe the new cycle of regenerations he received on Trenzalore will finally allow it to happen? And when the time comes that the Doctor does becomes female (it's inevitable) should any explanation be given as to why he's regenerated into a male twelve times? Should it even be addressed? Given how insular Gallifreyans are and their general attitude to biology (i.e. "Oh, yuck... Physicality, eugh."), I'm willing to bet that it was a new attitude brought about by the War. They had bigger things to worry about, so some of the previous divisions didn't matter anymore. Like all cultures, they changed.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jul 8, 2017 8:59:29 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? Nope, i don't want a female Doctor either & i discussed this recently with my niece & her friends because I'm a old git set in his ways my niece & her friends are all female 16-17 & all said they wouldn't want a female Doctor as they prefer a male role model.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 8, 2017 9:44:15 GMT
What Moffat said about "gender being fluid on Gallifrey" has me wondering why the Doctor hasn't been female already. Did he leave Gallifrey at a time when regenerating into a different gender was an uncommon or rare occurrence? Or has he always been capable of changing gender and some unseen force has prevented him from doing so? Maybe the new cycle of regenerations he received on Trenzalore will finally allow it to happen? And when the time comes that the Doctor does becomes female (it's inevitable) should any explanation be given as to why he's regenerated into a male twelve times? Should it even be addressed? Given how insular Gallifreyans are and their general attitude to biology (i.e. "Oh, yuck... Physicality, eugh."), I'm willing to bet that it was a new attitude brought about by the War. They had bigger things to worry about, so some of the previous divisions didn't matter anymore. Like all cultures, they changed. I suspect it could have been something all along. The Time Lords have always looked down on other cultures so it seems perfectly in-keeping that their cultures would be entirely above gender divisions and look down upon those that still have those. In regards to relationships, note also that friendship seems to have stronger connotations for Gallifreyans. Missy says as much that Time Lords are above human ideas of relationships and focuses on friendship in The Magician's Apprentice and mocks the Doctor as a cradle-snatcher for calling humans friends in World Enough and Time. Given their attitude to biology perhaps Gallifreyans focus on minds as the basis for relationships rather than physical attributes (how could you be attracted to someone by appearance in a culture where they might change their body tomorrow?). Therefore in such a culture simply getting on with people and being friends with them probably carries more value. And if that's the case it makes sense they wouldn't care about gender. As for the main question, absolutely not. I've seen perfectly valid arguments for the Doctor remaining male that I wouldn't characterise as sexist. I personally don't agree with those arguments, but no-one should feel excluded or intimidated for having that view.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 10:33:46 GMT
I suspect it could have been something all along. The Time Lords have always looked down on other cultures so it seems perfectly in-keeping that their cultures would be entirely above gender divisions and look down upon those that still have those. In regards to relationships, note also that friendship seems to have stronger connotations for Gallifreyans. Missy says as much that Time Lords are above human ideas of relationships and focuses on friendship in The Magician's Apprentice and mocks the Doctor as a cradle-snatcher for calling humans friends in World Enough and Time. Given their attitude to biology perhaps Gallifreyans focus on minds as the basis for relationships rather than physical attributes (how could you be attracted to someone by appearance in a culture where they might change their body tomorrow?). Therefore in such a culture simply getting on with people and being friends with them probably carries more value. And if that's the case it makes sense they wouldn't care about gender. Well, they're certainly not Draconians. The idea of it constantly being the case certainly has weight to it, they didn't bat an eyelid when their Lord Presidents were followed by Lady Presidents. Romana was criticised for her policies (by Darkel), not her gender. The only real problem I can see there is that the Gallifreyans themselves are not a progressive people. It's one of the main reasons that the Doctor decided to abandon them in the first place. It's why they have the Outlers who rejected their society. It's why Romana and Braxiatel would time and time again fail in trying to change their attitudes. It's a civilisation that became so stagnated, they'd rather die than change. Then again, what is conservative and what is progressive to a Time Lord? Alien values, they could be very different. Xenophobia is one commonality with humanity, at least.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 12:42:57 GMT
My problem is that it's silly that you use a male character and make them female to make a strong female character. Silly is kind of a loaded word. What do you mean by that? Why don't you just make good female characters, of whom are original rather than leeching off more successful ones who are male? Because then you'll be accused, and rightly so, of ripping off ideas from Doctor Who. Anyway, I think they should stick to a tradition of a male Doctor. Skin color doesn't matter. Exactly. Only genitalia. Well, if that isn't overanalysing...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 12:50:18 GMT
It's more fundamental. I'm doubting myself I have well thought out arguments about the need for a positive non violent male role model and stuff like that but... Am I just defending an emotional response with fancy window dressing. I know there is now nothing... in show... to stop it. Maybe it's because my wife says she won't watch it with a female doctor as it's just pandering to Americans. .. or something... But it comes down to me... worrying that I may actually be something I've actively fought against my whole life. It's messing with my head. Why is it pandering to Americans? That confuses me. I don't see only Americans saying they would like to see a female Doctor. I think it's referring to political correctness, which is more common in America. And there's a lot of it over here, but... you get my point.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jul 8, 2017 12:55:05 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? yes.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jul 8, 2017 13:08:15 GMT
I find it humorous that in all the whoniverse, Gallifreyians are the only species that can mate with themselves.
Have y'all not thought about this? It's not a stretch at all. The doctor meets former incarnations all the time, so why wouldn't other Gallifryians?
We know there are kids in the war doctors time, how many of them, truly have 1 parent?
Missy and Delgado, sitting in a tree.
Have a nice day U.S.A.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 8, 2017 13:28:48 GMT
I suspect it could have been something all along. The Time Lords have always looked down on other cultures so it seems perfectly in-keeping that their cultures would be entirely above gender divisions and look down upon those that still have those. In regards to relationships, note also that friendship seems to have stronger connotations for Gallifreyans. Missy says as much that Time Lords are above human ideas of relationships and focuses on friendship in The Magician's Apprentice and mocks the Doctor as a cradle-snatcher for calling humans friends in World Enough and Time. Given their attitude to biology perhaps Gallifreyans focus on minds as the basis for relationships rather than physical attributes (how could you be attracted to someone by appearance in a culture where they might change their body tomorrow?). Therefore in such a culture simply getting on with people and being friends with them probably carries more value. And if that's the case it makes sense they wouldn't care about gender. Well, they're certainly not Draconians. The idea of it constantly being the case certainly has weight to it, they didn't bat an eyelid when their Lord Presidents were followed by Lady Presidents. Romana was criticised for her policies (by Darkel), not her gender. The only real problem I can see there is that the Gallifreyans themselves are not a progressive people. It's one of the main reasons that the Doctor decided to abandon them in the first place. It's why they have the Outlers who rejected their society. It's why Romana and Braxiatel would time and time again fail in trying to change their attitudes. It's a civilisation that became so stagnated, they'd rather die than change. Then again, what is conservative and what is progressive to a Time Lord? Alien values, they could be very different. Xenophobia is one commonality with humanity, at least. From what we've seen the whole conservative/progressive division on Gallifrey is regarding their attitudes to the rest of the universe and the inflexibility of Time Lord society. Romana's policies were controversial because she was quite open to the rest of the universe, whereas conservatives like Darkel felt it best to keep Gallifrey distant. That's always been the Doctor's main gripe with the Time Lords-that they choose to isolate themselves and only take action to benefit themselves or the Web of Time. It doesn't help the CIA and High Council also have a tendency to be corrupt. The Outlers outright reject Time Lord society, but don't seem concerned about the rest of the universe. From what we see of day-to-day Gallifrey (which isn't much) it seems obsessed with centuries-old rituals (such as their obsession with Rassilon) and is very set in it's ways. This is hinted at in Listen where evidently children have to choose between the army or the Academy. So perhaps this rigidly organised society is what the Outlers take issue with (and presumably they reject technology as an extension of rejecting Time Lord society), this might also have been one of the Doctor's issues with Gallifrey and perhaps Romana also wanted to reform this as well, but met opposition from conservatives seeking to preserve the organisation. So from what we've seen gender doesn't seem to figure much as an issue in Gallifreyan society which makes sense as regeneration makes it flexible.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 8, 2017 14:03:00 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? I'd say no.
Although most reasons I can think of that are against it and my potential thinking after apparently is
Missy actually raises an increasing case
Was she open to the Doctor's viewpoint because she switched gender as before I would've said gender has never been a factor in Timelords mind-set or motivations.
Regards
mark687
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 8, 2017 15:54:58 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? I'd say no.
Although most reasons I can think of that are against it and my potential thinking after apparently is
Missy actually raises an increasing case
Was she open to the Doctor's viewpoint because she swathed gender as before I would've said gender has never been a factor in Timelords mind-set or motivations.
Regards
mark687
I think there is more to that though. We literally do not know Missy's past between Saxon and her appearance in "Deep Breath", so who knows what else happened to her? To assume her viewpoint changed because her gender did is an easy conclusion to make but not necessarily the right one.
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