Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 4:18:39 GMT
See even saying guys need personal heroes like the Doctor doesn't work for me because don't girls deserve those heroes too? And having a female Doctor doesn't take away from the 12 male Doctors we already do have. And having a female Doctor doesn't mean there will never be an another male Doctor ever again either. So saying guys need role models like the Doctor makes it sound like female role models are secondary. Why can't girls have role models like the Doctor? This is where I never understand this argument....why do men have to lose their heroes for women to gain them....why can't heroes be made for both sexes.... This is the bit I don't think I understand either and I'm not even really against the idea of a female Doctor. It just kind of... baffles me. Personally (and as someone who is male), Barbara was one of my role models growing up as a kid. More so than Ian actually, she was very intelligent, incredibly brave and was allowed to have faults that made her human. She didn't have to be the Doctor in order for me to respect and admire her. Liz Shaw likewise was a great addition to the series and I really enjoyed how she could hold her own against the Doctor. Hell, Evelyn Smythe is one of my all-time favourite companions and never once did I think she had to become male, young or the Doctor to have an impact. Why do we have to start cannibalising male characters in order to present compelling female characters? Surely we still have room for the Evelyn Smythes, Dana Scullys, Emma Peels, Aeryn Suns, Virginia Lakes, Cathy Gales, Samantha Carters, Kira Neryses, Modesty Blaises, Charlotte Pollards, Ellen Ripleys, Dutchs and Penelope Creighton-Wards of fiction. If you're going to do a Doctor who is also female, that's fine. Just please, please, please don't make the mistake they did with Janeway and make her the Female Doctor where her gender determines her personality.
|
|
|
Post by TinDogPodcast on Jul 7, 2017 6:32:38 GMT
It's more fundamental.
I'm doubting myself
I have well thought out arguments about the need for a positive non violent male role model and stuff like that but...
Am I just defending an emotional response with fancy window dressing.
I know there is now nothing... in show... to stop it.
Maybe it's because my wife says she won't watch it with a female doctor as it's just pandering to Americans. .. or something...
But it comes down to me... worrying that I may actually be something I've actively fought against my whole life.
It's messing with my head.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 6:49:35 GMT
It's more fundamental. I'm doubting myself I have well thought out arguments about the need for a positive non violent male role model and stuff like that but... Am I just defending an emotional response with fancy window dressing. I know there is now nothing... in show... to stop it. Maybe it's because my wife says she won't watch it with a female doctor as it's just pandering to Americans. .. or something... But it comes down to me... worrying that I may actually be something I've actively fought against my whole life. It's messing with my head. It may very well be just a reflex. A knee-jerk reaction based on media saturation and social upbringing. It's a cultural blind spot. We all have them, discovering them can be a bit unnerving, but awareness is far better than ignorance. Actually, it's even better than that. You're not only aware, you're actively questioning your own preconceptions. That's a very brave thing to do, to look at your own biases and say maybe something needs to change. Look at it this way, you don't want a Doctor who is female. Fair enough. But would you be willing to accept a Doctor who is female anyway?
|
|
|
Post by TinDogPodcast on Jul 7, 2017 7:00:23 GMT
Ill accept it.
But I will throw myself into big finish more.
Also... I don't want it to be... a gimmick.
A joke.
Arabella weir was a great choice but it was played just for laughs.
Or even Lumley.
Maybe unbound needs to return.
13 female doctors... 13 takes...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 7:11:02 GMT
Ill accept it. But I will throw myself into big finish more. Also... I don't want it to be... a gimmick. A joke. Arabella weir was a great choice but it was played just for laughs. Or even Lumley. Maybe unbound needs to return. 13 female doctors... 13 takes... Then there's no issue. You've got reservations, but for positive reasons -- you'd want the transition to work. It's a shame that The Curse of Fatal Death would be a factor, I'd rather like to see Lumley tackle an official (or even an Unbound) incarnation. All she'd have to do is play the part as herself and it'd be golden.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 8:25:26 GMT
Ill accept it. But I will throw myself into big finish more. Also... I don't want it to be... a gimmick. A joke. Arabella weir was a great choice but it was played just for laughs. Or even Lumley. Maybe unbound needs to return. 13 female doctors... 13 takes... The show has been going for over 50 years. If people think the idea of a female Doctor Who after all that time is a gimmick, shame on them. I'm also interested in why if it happened you would throw yourself into Big Finish more? It does seem like you have something against the principle of a female Doctor? Which would unfortunately support a yes answer to your initial question.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 9:46:43 GMT
So far, in the TV series, the closest we seem to have had to a female Doctor is Michelle Gomez at the start of World Enough And Time. She even called herself Doctor Who. And I have to be honest, although I don't particularly want a female Doctor, I really liked her in the role.
|
|
|
Post by kimalysong on Jul 7, 2017 9:58:36 GMT
See even saying guys need personal heroes like the Doctor doesn't work for me because don't girls deserve those heroes too? And having a female Doctor doesn't take away from the 12 male Doctors we already do have. And having a female Doctor doesn't mean there will never be a another male Doctor ever again either. So saying guys needs role models like the Doctor makes it sound like female role models are secondary. Why can't girls have role models like the Doctor? This is where i never understand this argument....why do men have to lose their heroes for women to gain them....why cant heroea be made for both sexes....why cant the bbc create a show with an adventurous female protagonist....ive never watched female heroes and thought man i wish Buffy or Wonder Woman was a male....I understand that the Doctor changes appearance, but to me its no different than saying well superman has been a male for 50 years so lets make a version as a women....at this point making the Doctor a woman will hold no meaning other than saying here ya go ladies we gave you one, i dont think it serves the show or character...i feel like Moffit adding in the sex changes as mostly confused things....why would it take the Doctor so many regenerations to become female and the same with the master...just my thoughts So why can't a female Doctor be your hero too? If the Doctor can be a girl's hero now I don't see why a female Doctor can't be a guy's hero as well. And again having a female Doctor doesn't take away from the 12 Doctors we already have. Would it be so bad to have a female Doctor with a male companion? I also don't get the argument well why did it take this long. There is no story reason for it. The reason why it took so long is because executives were afraid of change. There is no other reason. In fact even Syndey Newman proposed a female Doctor in the 80's. So the idea was there long before this. As for Wonder Woman how many super heroes are women? At most you have female versions of popular super heroes like super girl and bat girl who are way less important. And yes you can name other female main roles but in comparison Boys have way more heroes. But the difference is the Doctor is an alien that completely changes so there is no reason why the Doctor can't become a woman. Each Doctor is practically a different person from the rest. But apparently turning the Doctor into a woman is too big of a change? And no I don't want the Doctor to be a woman just to cast a woman. I honestly don't care as long as they cast the right person. But honestly all the arguments against it seem entirely unfair to me and that is what I am arguing against. And if you think having a female Doctor would have no meaning for both young girls and boys out there then you are very wrong.
|
|
|
Post by theotherjosh on Jul 7, 2017 11:09:00 GMT
For my part, I'm pretty neutral on the issue. A woman Doctor would be fine. I'm not marching in the streets for one, but I would support her fully if the decision were made.
There is an element of, "If you shoot the King, you must kill him," to the casting meaning that both she and the scripts would have to be exceptional and wouldn't get the honeymoon period a male actor could expect, because any area where she came up lacking would be used as evidence that a female Doctor can't work. But I don't think that's not a reason to make the attempt.
I don't see the need for an in-universe explanation, because, even though society treats it as such, "male" is not the default. Should this ever come to pass, I feel there is no need for a "I'm a woman now because..." speech.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 11:13:41 GMT
I'm not one for getting excited over a female Doctor, but any sensible person knows it's only a matter of time before we do have one. So I am at the stage now where I wish they'd just get on with it and make the Doctor female so we don't have to do this chat every time a regeneration comes up. Missy worked, very much so in fact, so a female Doctor might work too. It might not...I don't know. However it gets a bit tedious having this discussion every time a new Doctor is due to be announced.
In answer to the OP. No, it's not sexist to not want a female Doctor... unless you are the type of man who thinks women should be chained up in the kitchen cooking and washing up all day. (In which case, it is!)
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Jul 7, 2017 12:55:40 GMT
See even saying guys need personal heroes like the Doctor doesn't work for me because don't girls deserve those heroes too? And having a female Doctor doesn't take away from the 12 male Doctors we already do have. And having a female Doctor doesn't mean there will never be a another male Doctor ever again either. So saying guys needs role models like the Doctor makes it sound like female role models are secondary. Why can't girls have role models like the Doctor? This is where i never understand this argument....why do men have to lose their heroes for women to gain them....why cant heroea be made for both sexes....why cant the bbc create a show with an adventurous female protagonist....ive never watched female heroes and thought man i wish Buffy or Wonder Woman was a male....I understand that the Doctor changes appearance, but to me its no different than saying well superman has been a male for 50 years so lets make a version as a women....at this point making the Doctor a woman will hold no meaning other than saying here ya go ladies we gave you one, i dont think it serves the show or character... i feel like Moffit adding in the sex changes as mostly confused things....why would it take the Doctor so many regenerations to become female and the same with the master...just my thoughts I agree with this. 'Doctor Who' has never been afraid to use its stories to raise 'issues', with so many examples during the Pertwee years I grew up with. And true gender equality is certainly (and to our shame in the 21stC) still an 'issue' with a lot of work needed, even in western societies. Sure, there are many male heroes across popular culture and far too few female. But the Doctor is an irreplacable role model because he is a unique male hero. What other TV male hero fights again and again for peace, always chooses the non-violent option first, almost never carries a weapon and always takes the side of the weak against evil, exploitation and oppression? The Doctor does not serve a single nation, planet or even Federation - he values all life, serves the common good and rejected his privileged rank among his own people because they would not help others in need. The Doctor is a male hero who is simply too unusual and valuable to lose. The answer seems obvious. TV 'Doctor Who' have done one successful spin-off in 'Torchwood', another is long overdue; let's have another spin-off series with a female lead as BF have done with 'Gallifrey' - in fact, having led the way, perhaps BF could license that concept - or Benny - (or Iris ) - to the BBC!
|
|
|
Post by kimalysong on Jul 7, 2017 13:02:36 GMT
This is where i never understand this argument....why do men have to lose their heroes for women to gain them....why cant heroea be made for both sexes....why cant the bbc create a show with an adventurous female protagonist....ive never watched female heroes and thought man i wish Buffy or Wonder Woman was a male....I understand that the Doctor changes appearance, but to me its no different than saying well superman has been a male for 50 years so lets make a version as a women....at this point making the Doctor a woman will hold no meaning other than saying here ya go ladies we gave you one, i dont think it serves the show or character... i feel like Moffit adding in the sex changes as mostly confused things....why would it take the Doctor so many regenerations to become female and the same with the master...just my thoughts I agree with this. 'Doctor Who' has never been afraid to use its stories to raise 'issues', with so many examples during the Pertwee years I grew up with. And true gender equality is certainly (and to our shame in the 21stC) still an 'issue' with a lot of work needed, even in western societies. Sure, there are many male heroes across popular culture and far too few female. But the Doctor is an irreplacable role model because he is a unique male hero. What other male hero fights again and again for peace, always chooses the non-violent option first, almost never carries a weapon and always takes the side of the weak against evil, exploitation and oppression? The Doctor does not serve a single nation, planet or even Federation - he values all life, serves the common good and rejected his privileged rank among his own people because they would not help others in need. The Doctor is a male hero who is simply too unusual and valuable to lose. The answer seems obvious. TV 'Doctor Who' have done one successful spin-off in 'Torchwood', another is long overdue; let's have another spin-off series with a Time Lady lead as BF have done with 'Gallifrey' - in fact, having led the way, perhaps BF could license that concept - or Benny - (or Iris ) - to the BBC! But with a female Doctor you wouldn't lose a male hero. You would still have 12 male Doctors and there could still be more male Doctors in the future. I don't really get how having a female Doctor would take this away from all the little boys. And the Doctor is the iconic role so saying a new series should be created for women doesn't cut it for me. Yes there should be more good original roles for women. But that doesn't take away from the fact that maybe there are little girls who would like to see themselves in The Doctor for once. Boys had that for 50+ years. And having a female Doctor shouldn't ruin the character as a role model for little boys either. Why can't they look up to a female Doctor?
|
|
|
Post by apdalek22 on Jul 7, 2017 13:14:46 GMT
I agree with this. 'Doctor Who' has never been afraid to use its stories to raise 'issues', with so many examples during the Pertwee years I grew up with. And true gender equality is certainly (and to our shame in the 21stC) still an 'issue' with a lot of work needed, even in western societies. Sure, there are many male heroes across popular culture and far too few female. But the Doctor is an irreplacable role model because he is a unique male hero. What other male hero fights again and again for peace, always chooses the non-violent option first, almost never carries a weapon and always takes the side of the weak against evil, exploitation and oppression? The Doctor does not serve a single nation, planet or even Federation - he values all life, serves the common good and rejected his privileged rank among his own people because they would not help others in need. The Doctor is a male hero who is simply too unusual and valuable to lose. The answer seems obvious. TV 'Doctor Who' have done one successful spin-off in 'Torchwood', another is long overdue; let's have another spin-off series with a Time Lady lead as BF have done with 'Gallifrey' - in fact, having led the way, perhaps BF could license that concept - or Benny - (or Iris ) - to the BBC! But with a female Doctor you wouldn't lose a male hero. You would still have 12 male Doctors and there could still be more male Doctors in the future. I don't really get how having a female Doctor would take this away from all the little boys. And the Doctor is the iconic role so saying a new series should be created for women doesn't cut it for me. Yes there should be more good original roles for women. But that doesn't take away from the fact that maybe there are little girls who would like to see themselves in The Doctor for once. Boys had that for 50+ years. And having a female Doctor shouldn't ruin the character as a role model for little boys either. Why can't they look up to a female Doctor? I dont fully understand your argument, you say why cant little boys look up to a female doctor, but then also say that little girls need a female doctor to look up inferring that they cant look up to a male doctor that doesnt make since....and are you also saying you would rather take Iconic male roles and convert them to female because they are already iconic, instead of creating new strong female heroes that could become Iconic for future generations of girls....that also doesnt make since...i feel like that doesnt really help the situation at all....why couldn't a spinoff created around a female time lord who is on equal footing with the doctor not work....look at Hercules and Xena, her show become the more popular
|
|
|
Post by doomlord on Jul 7, 2017 13:22:30 GMT
Sexist? Certainly not. You're perfectly entitled to your preferences. It would only become sexist if you went from liking your preferred male lead way to actually hating the female lead and targeting her particularly because she was a woman. Which I'm positive you and many of us wouldn't do.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 13:53:28 GMT
Personally I don't really want a female Doctor Who. Not because I'm sexist but because I'm selfish and I'm used to it being a man. I watch lots of other female led shows and really like them, but I worry that if we get a female Doctor, then my viewing of the show will be all about adjusting to the change. It's hard enough adjusting to a new Doctor, especially realising you don't really like one and may have to wait years for a replacement; I think that would be even harder in a gender change regeneration.
|
|
|
Post by kimalysong on Jul 7, 2017 14:16:56 GMT
But with a female Doctor you wouldn't lose a male hero. You would still have 12 male Doctors and there could still be more male Doctors in the future. I don't really get how having a female Doctor would take this away from all the little boys. And the Doctor is the iconic role so saying a new series should be created for women doesn't cut it for me. Yes there should be more good original roles for women. But that doesn't take away from the fact that maybe there are little girls who would like to see themselves in The Doctor for once. Boys had that for 50+ years. And having a female Doctor shouldn't ruin the character as a role model for little boys either. Why can't they look up to a female Doctor? I dont fully understand your argument, you say why cant little boys look up to a female doctor, but then also say that little girls need a female doctor to look up inferring that they cant look up to a male doctor that doesnt make since....and are you also saying you would rather take Iconic male roles and convert them to female because they are already iconic, instead of creating new strong female heroes that could become Iconic for future generations of girls....that also doesnt make since...i feel like that doesnt really help the situation at all....why couldn't a spinoff created around a female time lord who is on equal footing with the doctor not work....look at Hercules and Xena, her show become the more popular You seem to be missing my point. Of course girls can look up to a male Doctor they have done so for 50+ years. But it would be nice if for once little girls got to be the Doctor. The Doctor is an iconic role and there isn't much comparable to it. The chance of any new show created today having the same historical status as Doctor Who is very slim. The nearest thing I can think of that has become iconic is probably Harry Potter (but of course that was also a male hero) I am sure there will be other popular shows, maybe even some with female heroes but no it is absolutely not comparable. Hercules and Xena were only a year apart and are definitely not comparable to what I am saying. Even look at the Sarah Jane Adventures. It was a popular very well received show with a female lead role. But it's still not Doctor Who. It's a spin off. So my point is I don't understand why boys can't look up to a female Doctor. Because that is basically what you are saying.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Jul 7, 2017 14:46:35 GMT
But with a female Doctor you wouldn't lose a male hero. You would still have 12 male Doctors and there could still be more male Doctors in the future. I don't really get how having a female Doctor would take this away from all the little boys. And the Doctor is the iconic role so saying a new series should be created for women doesn't cut it for me. Yes there should be more good original roles for women. But that doesn't take away from the fact that maybe there are little girls who would like to see themselves in The Doctor for once. Boys had that for 50+ years. And having a female Doctor shouldn't ruin the character as a role model for little boys either. Why can't they look up to a female Doctor? I can only speak for my own experience (a long time ago now!) of growing up watching Jon Pertwee's Third Doctor. It didn't matter to me that there had been two others before him, I didn't even know until 'the Three Doctors' aired and the idea of future Doctors never occurred to me. To me, he was THE Doctor (still is actually!) and I'll admit there was a tear in 1974 when he 'died'. Only one Doctor will be your hero at the right age, one chance only. Of course I could have looked up to a female Doctor, but it would have been different. EDIT: I deleted the rest because this is irresolvable. There will be a female Doctor some day, whatever fans think about it either way, and quite possibly in 2018. When that eventually happens, what matters is that they cast the right person and have stories we want to watch. With one huge caveat, which @wolfie53 put so well I'll just quote it here: If you're going to do a Doctor who is also female, that's fine. Just please, please, please don't make the mistake they did with Janeway and make her the Female Doctor where her gender determines her personality. This, for the sake of the future of the show.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 15:09:28 GMT
My problem is that it's silly that you use a male character and make them female to make a strong female character.
Why don't you just make good female characters, of whom are original rather than leeching off more successful ones who are male?
Anyway, I think they should stick to a tradition of a male Doctor. Skin color doesn't matter.
|
|
|
Post by theotherjosh on Jul 7, 2017 15:46:43 GMT
My problem is that it's silly that you use a male character and make them female to make a strong female character. Silly is kind of a loaded word. What do you mean by that? Why don't you just make good female characters, of whom are original rather than leeching off more successful ones who are male? Because then you'll be accused, and rightly so, of ripping off ideas from Doctor Who. Anyway, I think they should stick to a tradition of a male Doctor. Skin color doesn't matter. Exactly. Only genitalia.
|
|
|
Post by ollychops on Jul 7, 2017 16:39:29 GMT
It depends on why you don't want a female Doctor. If there are genuine reasons as to why you don't want a female Doctor, and it's not based around negative connotations/views of women, then, no, you're not sexist. Although, I haven't heard many genuine reasons as to why people don't want a female Doctor, but there you go.
|
|