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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jul 10, 2017 0:58:33 GMT
Johnny Storm is black? Cool. Ororo is white? Not Cool. Why? Same reason casting Scarlett Johannson in Ghost in the Shell was not cool, because their narrative background is part of their definition. At no point is Johnny Storm's race relevant to his character or background or further development. Superman could easily be black without a problem, he's another alien. Batman? No. Because if you're building any real world reality into your show then the familial history and industrialist billionaire background for that character as yet precludes that. Wonder Woman? Sure, she could have been though her origin as part of a Greek influenced myth cycle is fiddly. Captain America? Yep. But not the Steve Rogers version, because of their specific history. So it isn't just simple swapping. And let's not talk of the abomination of the whitewashed Airbender movie. just an fyi, but in marvel history, the man who followed Rogers as cap, was black, and I don't mean Sam Wilson. |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 10, 2017 1:14:54 GMT
I couldn't watch the latest Fantasic Four movie, cause they had to cast Johnny Storm as a black man. Just because they thought it was pc. Or because Michael B Jordan was the actor they wanted? They didn't just cast "a black man" - they cast one of the best young actors in Hollywood and as he's proven with Creed, a guy who can lead big populist movies. Honestly, Michael B. Jordan was the least of the problems the most recent Fantastic Four movie had. |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 10, 2017 1:15:22 GMT
Johnny Storm is black? Cool. Ororo is white? Not Cool. Why? Same reason casting Scarlett Johannson in Ghost in the Shell was not cool, because their narrative background is part of their definition. At no point is Johnny Storm's race relevant to his character or background or further development. Superman could easily be black without a problem, he's another alien. Batman? No. Because if you're building any real world reality into your show then the familial history and industrialist billionaire background for that character as yet precludes that. Wonder Woman? Sure, she could have been though her origin as part of a Greek influenced myth cycle is fiddly. Captain America? Yep. But not the Steve Rogers version, because of their specific history. So it isn't just simple swapping. And let's not talk of the abomination of the whitewashed Airbender movie. just an fyi, but in marvel history, the man who followed Rogers as cap, was black, and I don't mean Sam Wilson. So? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 1:38:45 GMT
As a side-note, though, I did appreciate the comment on how Xena outstripped Hercules in cultural relevance. I do think it would be awesome if, for example, we had a spin-off show where River Song broke from that Library mainframe David Tennant dropped her into and somehow got her regenerations back! Might help her character to evolve away from the Doctor-obsessed fan-girl she sometimes seemed to be Although she sadly doesn't have the same cultural relevance, we kind of already got that with Bernice Summerfield. Think about it, her first story was in 1992 and since then she took up the reigns from the Doctor for her own novel series and later her own audio series. She's got at least eighty novels under her belt and over fifty audios with more coming this year. In two-and-a-half decades, we're still getting new stories from her and people are still following her. She's even managed to break into the new series with Big Bang Generation (feat. Twelfth Doctor). Someone who well and truly broke free of the companion niche and became the lead in her own long-running series. A good, strong and long-enduring female archaeologist who started life with, but isn't defined by the Doctor. Yet despite all that, she somehow almost always seems to fly under the radar. It's bewildering. Getting River to be independent would be difficult from a writing perspective purely because much of her life is defined by the Doctor. Her life revolves around him in a very real and almost intractable way. To use Benny as a contrast, her life was more defined by the Daleks (and Braxiatel) than anything else, so there was wiggle room. It's not impossible to push River away from "obsessed fan girl", but it'd take some very serious doing. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 2:29:16 GMT
Johnny Storm is black? Cool. Ororo is white? Not Cool. Why? Same reason casting Scarlett Johannson in Ghost in the Shell was not cool, because their narrative background is part of their definition. At no point is Johnny Storm's race relevant to his character or background or further development. Superman could easily be black without a problem, he's another alien. Batman? No. Because if you're building any real world reality into your show then the familial history and industrialist billionaire background for that character as yet precludes that. Wonder Woman? Sure, she could have been though her origin as part of a Greek influenced myth cycle is fiddly. Captain America? Yep. But not the Steve Rogers version, because of their specific history. So it isn't just simple swapping. And let's not talk of the abomination of the whitewashed Airbender movie. And keep in mind that the director of the original Japanese Ghost in the Shell films -- Mamoru Oshii -- stated of the casting: "I can only sense a political motive from the people opposing it, and I believe artistic expression must be free from politics." The director of the films that this remake was sourced from, had no objection to it. So what was the issue? Why was it so viciously attacked for whitewashing? And the answer is simple enough. By trying to accommodate for its new market, the filmmakers inadvertently alienated it. Critics of the production choice felt that the work didn't take into account Western ideological concerns regarding race representation in Hollywood. To them, the division between East and West wasn't as fluid. The Japanese aesthete was far more important to the West than it was where it came from (ultimately for the same reason we'd shrug at their culture-tailored remake of My Fair Lady) and Ghost in the Shell is seen to loose something if it ignores the Eastern origins of its characters. A much safer candidate for translation would've been Cowboy Bebop because the characters are multicultural from the get-go. Their appeal isn't tied into their Japanese production house (and before anyone jumps down my throat, Spike is born on Mars, Jet on Ganymede and Ed might be Turkish). And I hope to god Hollywood never go for it, because Bebop already had a film and it's perfect the way it is. Actually, as an aside, Kipling often gets quoted as a man who said: "Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." However, that quote ignores the last two lines of that stanza: If that same idea is applied to art, we may very well eventually have a film based on an anime where the merging doesn't matter. The upcoming Battle Angel Alita (or Gunnm) remake could be promising in that field as it takes place in what long ago was once the American Midwest. |
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jul 10, 2017 4:33:24 GMT
I think comparing casting the next Doctor to other fictional castings is a bit silly, given that the Doctor literally changes their entire biology. James Bond is always James Bond. He's one definitive character, definitely male and definitely British. (On the other hand, I'd argue not definitely white for modern adaptations.) The Doctor is more flexible, going back to when Troughton didn't just imitate Hartnell. Every Doctor has been different physically, vocally, personality-wise... I don't think gender is that big of a leap, especially now that Missy has already made the leap.
Honestly, I think a female or non-white Doctor is something that should have happened before and it's a smidge embarrassing that it hasn't (not that I don't think all the Doctors are marvelous).
I don't necessarily think you're sexist for not wanting a female Doctor, although I have noticed a LOT of people who say they don't want a female Doctor tend to have some overt or subtextual sexism in their reasoning. Frankly, I think it's one of those things where once it happens, it'll get accepted fairly quickly. And it will happen, unless the show manages to get cancelled again before they have a chance.
It's no longer an option: it's an inevitability.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 5:31:51 GMT
I think comparing casting the next Doctor to other fictional castings is a bit silly, given that the Doctor literally changes their entire biology. James Bond is always James Bond. He's one definitive character, definitely male and definitely British. (On the other hand, I'd argue not definitely white for modern adaptations.) The Doctor is more flexible, going back to when Troughton didn't just imitate Hartnell. Every Doctor has been different physically, vocally, personality-wise... I don't think gender is that big of a leap, especially now that Missy has already made the leap. Oh, even then. I think you can make a similar argument for a character like Bond as well. I think until Fleming published 007's obituary in You Only Live Twice (circa. 1964), the assumption was that Bond was English. Moreover, the decision to make Bond's father a man from the Scottish village of Glencoe (acknowledging Connery's portrayal of the character) often overshadows the fact that his mother, Monique Delacroix, was born Switzerland's Canton of Vaud. Going beyond the original novels, you have Bond the Smooth-Tongued (Connery), the Gentle Bond (latter Moore), a very Byronesque Bond (Dalton), the Millennium Bond (Brosnan) and Bond the Villain (Craig). A character's portrayal -- even with the most stalwart of British icons -- can be a far more flexible than people initially suspect it to be. |
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jul 10, 2017 5:46:58 GMT
I think comparing casting the next Doctor to other fictional castings is a bit silly, given that the Doctor literally changes their entire biology. James Bond is always James Bond. He's one definitive character, definitely male and definitely British. (On the other hand, I'd argue not definitely white for modern adaptations.) The Doctor is more flexible, going back to when Troughton didn't just imitate Hartnell. Every Doctor has been different physically, vocally, personality-wise... I don't think gender is that big of a leap, especially now that Missy has already made the leap. Oh, even then. I think you can make a similar argument for a character like Bond as well. I think until Fleming published 007's obituary in You Only Live Twice (circa. 1964), the assumption was that Bond was English. Moreover, the decision to make Bond's father a man from the Scottish village of Glencoe (acknowledging Connery's portrayal of the character) often overshadows the fact that his mother, Monique Delacroix, was born Switzerland's Canton of Vaud. Going beyond the original novels, you have Bond the Smooth-Tongued (Connery), the Gentle Bond (latter Moore), a very Byronesque Bond (Dalton), the Millennium Bond (Brosnan) and Bond the Villain (Craig). A character's portrayal -- even with the most stalwart of British icons -- can be a far more flexible than people initially suspect it to be. You're right, of course, although I think Bond's a little more fixed than the Doctor is, even if he does change with the times. I was primarily trying to argue that the Doctor's not like the other fictional characters people keep comparing him to, but I might not have picked the right character for the comparison. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2017 6:28:14 GMT
Oh, even then. I think you can make a similar argument for a character like Bond as well. I think until Fleming published 007's obituary in You Only Live Twice (circa. 1964), the assumption was that Bond was English. Moreover, the decision to make Bond's father a man from the Scottish village of Glencoe (acknowledging Connery's portrayal of the character) often overshadows the fact that his mother, Monique Delacroix, was born Switzerland's Canton of Vaud. Going beyond the original novels, you have Bond the Smooth-Tongued (Connery), the Gentle Bond (latter Moore), a very Byronesque Bond (Dalton), the Millennium Bond (Brosnan) and Bond the Villain (Craig). A character's portrayal -- even with the most stalwart of British icons -- can be a far more flexible than people initially suspect it to be. You're right, of course, although I think Bond's a little more fixed than the Doctor is, even if he does change with the times. I was primarily trying to argue that the Doctor's not like the other fictional characters people keep comparing him to, but I might not have picked the right character for the comparison. Oh, no, don't worry about it. I understand what you were getting at.  All characters are flexible in one way or another, but the Doctor more so than most. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 10, 2017 18:11:10 GMT
Johnny Storm is black? Cool. Ororo is white? Not Cool. Why? Same reason casting Scarlett Johannson in Ghost in the Shell was not cool, because their narrative background is part of their definition. At no point is Johnny Storm's race relevant to his character or background or further development. Superman could easily be black without a problem, he's another alien. Batman? No. Because if you're building any real world reality into your show then the familial history and industrialist billionaire background for that character as yet precludes that. Wonder Woman? Sure, she could have been though her origin as part of a Greek influenced myth cycle is fiddly. Captain America? Yep. But not the Steve Rogers version, because of their specific history. So it isn't just simple swapping. And let's not talk of the abomination of the whitewashed Airbender movie. just an fyi, but in marvel history, the man who followed Rogers as cap, was black, and I don't mean Sam Wilson. I know  |
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Post by kinghumble on Jul 10, 2017 18:15:34 GMT
As a side-note, though, I did appreciate the comment on how Xena outstripped Hercules in cultural relevance. I do think it would be awesome if, for example, we had a spin-off show where River Song broke from that Library mainframe David Tennant dropped her into and somehow got her regenerations back! Might help her character to evolve away from the Doctor-obsessed fan-girl she sometimes seemed to be Although she sadly doesn't have the same cultural relevance, we kind of already got that with Bernice Summerfield. I have to confess, I haven't read or heard any Bernice, though I've noted she comes highly recommended. I only started with BF a year ago and I've still got quite a few Classic Doctor material to work through in the coming months/years, as my budget allows, before I consider Bernice/Jago and Lightfoot/UNIT/Churchill or any other spin-offs |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 10, 2017 18:19:40 GMT
Johnny Storm is black? Cool. Ororo is white? Not Cool. Why? Same reason casting Scarlett Johannson in Ghost in the Shell was not cool, because their narrative background is part of their definition. At no point is Johnny Storm's race relevant to his character or background or further development. Superman could easily be black without a problem, he's another alien. Batman? No. Because if you're building any real world reality into your show then the familial history and industrialist billionaire background for that character as yet precludes that. Wonder Woman? Sure, she could have been though her origin as part of a Greek influenced myth cycle is fiddly. Captain America? Yep. But not the Steve Rogers version, because of their specific history. So it isn't just simple swapping. And let's not talk of the abomination of the whitewashed Airbender movie. And keep in mind that the director of the original Japanese Ghost in the Shell films -- Mamoru Oshii -- stated of the casting: "I can only sense a political motive from the people opposing it, and I believe artistic expression must be free from politics." The director of the films that this remake was sourced from, had no objection to it. So what was the issue? Why was it so viciously attacked for whitewashing? And the answer is simple enough. By trying to accommodate for its new market, the filmmakers inadvertently alienated it. Critics of the production choice felt that the work didn't take into account Western ideological concerns regarding race representation in Hollywood. To them, the division between East and West wasn't as fluid. The Japanese aesthete was far more important to the West than it was where it came from (ultimately for the same reason we'd shrug at their culture-tailored remake of My Fair Lady) and Ghost in the Shell is seen to loose something if it ignores the Eastern origins of its characters. A much safer candidate for translation would've been Cowboy Bebop because the characters are multicultural from the get-go. Their appeal isn't tied into their Japanese production house (and before anyone jumps down my throat, Spike is born on Mars, Jet on Ganymede and Ed might be Turkish). And I hope to god Hollywood never go for it, because Bebop already had a film and it's perfect the way it is. Actually, as an aside, Kipling often gets quoted as a man who said: "Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." However, that quote ignores the last two lines of that stanza: If that same idea is applied to art, we may very well eventually have a film based on an anime where the merging doesn't matter. The upcoming Battle Angel Alita (or Gunnm) remake could be promising in that field as it takes place in what long ago was once the American Midwest. Just showing the nuances have to be looked at . For example Throne of Blood is a marvelous version of Macbeth, but it doesn't start off by riffing on Scotland. It just is what it is. So Ghost in the Shell was neither one thing nor t'other and was doomed to fail. |
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Post by kinghumble on Jul 10, 2017 18:24:34 GMT
I do think the question of privilege needs to be addressed, though I know, I know, many White people hate being reminded of it.
Simply - Western media has a majority of White male representation. Cool characters for women, for minorities in general, are much rarer. So when a character gets recast as a female, or a minority, you are increasing representation for under-represented groups. But if you take a minority character and make them white, or a female character and make them male, you're decreasing the representation of an under-represented group. That's a part of the problem, at least within Western culture.
Perhaps, hopefully, we'll one day reach a point of equal representation in media. If that happens, then yes, it will theoretically be no problem to take a black character and cast them as a white actor. But we're not there yet, so, the question of privilege remains relevant.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jul 11, 2017 1:06:17 GMT
just an fyi, but in marvel history, the man who followed Rogers as cap, was black, and I don't mean Sam Wilson. I know figured you did, Red White & Black was a great story, wish they woulda went on a little ways with it. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 11, 2017 1:57:48 GMT
I know figured you did, Red White & Black was a great story, wish they woulda went on a little ways with it. That was a hell of a story. I read up on Tuskagee afterwards....man. I dunno. A definite tale to make you think. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 3:05:57 GMT
Although she sadly doesn't have the same cultural relevance, we kind of already got that with Bernice Summerfield. I have to confess, I haven't read or heard any Bernice, though I've noted she comes highly recommended. I only started with BF a year ago and I've still got quite a few Classic Doctor material to work through in the coming months/years, as my budget allows, before I consider Bernice/Jago and Lightfoot/UNIT/Churchill or any other spin-offs I'd recommend sweeping up Love and War the next time it goes on sale as an introduction. It was a brilliant book by Paul Cornell to begin with and Jacqueline Rayner does a superb job adapting it to audio. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2017 3:35:45 GMT
I do think the question of privilege needs to be addressed, though I know, I know, many White people hate being reminded of it. Simply - Western media has a majority of White male representation. Cool characters for women, for minorities in general, are much rarer. So when a character gets recast as a female, or a minority, you are increasing representation for under-represented groups. But if you take a minority character and make them white, or a female character and make them male, you're decreasing the representation of an under-represented group. That's a part of the problem, at least within Western culture. Perhaps, hopefully, we'll one day reach a point of equal representation in media. If that happens, then yes, it will theoretically be no problem to take a black character and cast them as a white actor. But we're not there yet, so, the question of privilege remains relevant. Well, let's think about a series of Alien films where Ellen Ripley had been played by Pamela Grier or Josette Simon instead. Putting aside the instinctive knee-jerk reaction that only Weaver could play Ripley, would the character herself been any less for that particular change? Better question (because it's non-hypothetical): is the remake of The Manchurian Candidate any less for having Denzel Washington playing the main lead, Bennett Marco? Personally, I think he does a spectacular job in the role and if Hollywood insists on remaking old films, I'd enjoy seeing similar such choices for roles in the future. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 15:39:29 GMT
I've been thinking long and hard about this, and now I've seen her I know why I had reservations.
The Doctor is hot!
That changes my perception of the show in ways I still have to process. I'm looking forward to it though.
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Post by glynnlondon on Jul 16, 2017 16:13:00 GMT
I've been thinking long and jard about this, and now I've seen her I know why I had reservations. The Doctor is hot! That changes my perception of the show in ways I still have to process. I'm looking forward to it though. Therein lies the potential problem, I'm thinking of the interminable 10 and Rose love story inverted. |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 16, 2017 17:37:50 GMT
I've been thinking long and hard about this, and now I've seen her I know why I had reservations. The Doctor is hot! That changes my perception of the show in ways I still have to process. I'm looking forward to it though. And there is where the script is flipped. I know a lot of female fans, and male fans, who thought Tennant & Smith were "hot." Change. It happens. |
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All characters are flexible in one way or another, but the Doctor more so than most.
