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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 8, 2017 16:04:05 GMT
I find it humorous that in all the whoniverse, Gallifreyians are the only species that can mate with themselves. Have y'all not thought about this? It's not a stretch at all. The doctor meets former incarnations all the time, so why wouldn't other Gallifryians? We know there are kids in the war doctors time, how many of them, truly have 1 parent? Missy and Delgado, sitting in a tree. Have a nice day U.S.A. I'd say they have strict laws against that dating back to who knows when, since it's not only the child's biology at play (and no, having a different incarnation wouldn't make any difference since we know Time Lord biodata is kept on file and apparently is unchanging from one iteration to the next), but rather what havoc that would play with the timelines. The CIA would stamp on that as hard as possible I think. The Oubliette of Eternity might get taken out of storage for that one.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 8, 2017 16:07:03 GMT
I'd say no.
Although most reasons I can think of that are against it and my potential thinking after apparently is
Missy actually raises an increasing case
Was she open to the Doctor's viewpoint because she swathed gender as before I would've said gender has never been a factor in Timelords mind-set or motivations.
Regards
mark687
I think there is more to that though. We literally do not know Missy's past between Saxon and her appearance in "Deep Breath", so who knows what else happened to her? To assume her viewpoint changed because her gender did is an easy conclusion to make but not necessarily the right one. Fair enough I'm still surprised the attitude change was genuine.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 8, 2017 17:19:49 GMT
I find it humorous that we are seriously discussing the biological mating habits of a fictional species of humanoids where the rules for such mating has been up as the creators went along over the decades.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 8, 2017 18:16:58 GMT
I find it humorous that we are seriously discussing the biological mating habits of a fictional species of humanoids where the rules for such mating has been up as the creators went along over the decades. Really? We haven't gotten to the equivalent point of entire dictionaries of Klingon yet so...we're good
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Post by mrperson on Jul 8, 2017 18:30:33 GMT
I find it humorous that in all the whoniverse, Gallifreyians are the only species that can mate with themselves. Have y'all not thought about this? It's not a stretch at all. The doctor meets former incarnations all the time, so why wouldn't other Gallifryians? We know there are kids in the war doctors time, how many of them, truly have 1 parent? Missy and Delgado, sitting in a tree. Have a nice day U.S.A. Well, they're not even supposed to be meeting their former selves, so I'd guess that that would be a major no-no. But who knows....
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Post by elgranto on Jul 8, 2017 20:50:26 GMT
What Moffat said about "gender being fluid on Gallifrey" has me wondering why the Doctor hasn't been female already. Did he leave Gallifrey at a time when regenerating into a different gender was an uncommon or rare occurrence? Or has he always been capable of changing gender and some unseen force has prevented him from doing so? Maybe the new cycle of regenerations he received on Trenzalore will finally allow it to happen? And when the time comes that the Doctor does becomes female (it's inevitable) should any explanation be given as to why he's regenerated into a male twelve times? Should it even be addressed? Given how insular Gallifreyans are and their general attitude to biology (i.e. "Oh, yuck... Physicality, eugh."), I'm willing to bet that it was a new attitude brought about by the War. They had bigger things to worry about, so some of the previous divisions didn't matter anymore. Like all cultures, they changed. If Doom Coalition 4 is anything to go by, it would seem that changing sex upon regeneration is a common phenomena even before the Time War. Unless... {Spoiler} Volstrom was one of those rare Time Lords who could change gender when it wasn't commonplace in the population. Given how much Time Lords value the survival of their race above all things, it stands to reason that they'd do everything in their power to ensure their propagation through trying times, like the Time War. So being able to alternate between male and female can have tremendous advantages for extending the species. When your survival is on the line, cultural norms get thrown out the window.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 21:26:41 GMT
Given how insular Gallifreyans are and their general attitude to biology (i.e. "Oh, yuck... Physicality, eugh."), I'm willing to bet that it was a new attitude brought about by the War. They had bigger things to worry about, so some of the previous divisions didn't matter anymore. Like all cultures, they changed. If Doom Coalition 4 is anything to go by, it would seem that changing sex upon regeneration is a common phenomena even before the Time War. Unless... Volstrom was one of those rare Time Lords who could change gender when it wasn't commonplace in the population. Given how much Time Lords value the survival of their race above all things, it stands to reason that they'd do everything in their power to ensure their propagation through trying times, like the Time War. So being able to alternate between male and female can have tremendous advantages for extending the species. When your survival is on the line, cultural norms get thrown out the window.Mmm, the problem there with the idea of there being no crossgender change is that -- like all societies -- there are groups amongst the Time Lords that practice what would be forbidden anyway. They had vampiric cults, religious cults, whatever Faction Paradox is supposed to be (Which cult, cousin? ALL/NONE OF THEM. At once. We're flexible.), so even if it were illegal like Exile states in the main universe, there would probably still be those who did it. We can count at least one renegade who did it before any others mentioned recently: I.M Foreman from Interference, who was part of the old monastic orders driven out after Rassilon's Intuitive Revolution. I'd be very surprised if it didn't exist, but do they consider it culturally acceptable? Probably...? It's never really come up as a contemporary idea until now. From what we've seen the whole conservative/progressive division on Gallifrey is regarding their attitudes to the rest of the universe and the inflexibility of Time Lord society. Romana's policies were controversial because she was quite open to the rest of the universe, whereas conservatives like Darkel felt it best to keep Gallifrey distant. That's always been the Doctor's main gripe with the Time Lords-that they choose to isolate themselves and only take action to benefit themselves or the Web of Time. It doesn't help the CIA and High Council also have a tendency to be corrupt. The Outlers outright reject Time Lord society, but don't seem concerned about the rest of the universe. From what we see of day-to-day Gallifrey (which isn't much) it seems obsessed with centuries-old rituals (such as their obsession with Rassilon) and is very set in it's ways. This is hinted at in Listen where evidently children have to choose between the army or the Academy. So perhaps this rigidly organised society is what the Outlers take issue with (and presumably they reject technology as an extension of rejecting Time Lord society), this might also have been one of the Doctor's issues with Gallifrey and perhaps Romana also wanted to reform this as well, but met opposition from conservatives seeking to preserve the organisation. So from what we've seen gender doesn't seem to figure much as an issue in Gallifreyan society which makes sense as regeneration makes it flexible. And makes sense if you take Pythia's curse into account as well. With the Outsiders/Shobogans, I suspect it's more a rejection of higher technology than just technology itself. They still use crossbows, manufactured clothing and settlements, etc. I find it humorous that we are seriously discussing the biological mating habits of a fictional species of humanoids where the rules for such mating has been up as the creators went along over the decades. Really? We haven't gotten to the equivalent point of entire dictionaries of Klingon yet so...we're good I think it's because we're not as structured a fandom as Trekkers are. I know some that could name each deck of the Enterprise-D and what was in it. Who on the other hand... The TARDIS has a few console rooms, a library, a swimming pool and that's pretty much the only certainty we have because she's very mercurial about where everything goes. All we know about the Gallifreyan omegabet is that it's called an omegabet and it all looks Greek to me. We've got wiggle room. I think we know more about Skarosian names than Gallifreyan, to be honest ("Dalek" being Dal for "Gods", etc.).
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Post by anothermanicmondas on Jul 8, 2017 22:12:24 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? it's not sexist to want a character to be portarayed as the same gender as they have always been portrayed (outside of parodies) it would be sexist to object to an equivalent character of the other gender. Concerns about the next person to play the Doctor are normal and there is nothing wrong with being concerned about whether someone just cast is right for the role (though you should wait for their second story to judge them)
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Post by number13 on Jul 8, 2017 23:56:45 GMT
I find it humorous that we are seriously discussing the biological mating habits of a fictional species of humanoids where the rules for such mating has been up as the creators went along over the decades. Really? We haven't gotten to the equivalent point of entire dictionaries of Klingon yet so...we're good No, we have really. I've been posting 'in an obscure Martian dialect' since February and no one has noticed because this is a 'Doctor Who' forum so we know the TARDIS is in our heads doing its thing. As the philosopher Izyssryss once said to the Fourth Empress: 'Ssss, ssssss, sss; ssss, sss!" Poetic and so true.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 8, 2017 23:59:42 GMT
Really? We haven't gotten to the equivalent point of entire dictionaries of Klingon yet so...we're good No, we have really. I've been posting 'in an obscure Martian dialect' since February and no one has noticed because this is a 'Doctor Who' forum so we know the TARDIS is in our heads doing its thing. As the philosopher Izyssryss once said to the Fourth Empress: 'Ssss, ssssss, sss; ssss, sss!" Poetic and so true. No, don't do that. Don't do that.
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Post by number13 on Jul 9, 2017 0:48:47 GMT
No, we have really. I've been posting 'in an obscure Martian dialect' since February and no one has noticed because this is a 'Doctor Who' forum so we know the TARDIS is in our heads doing its thing. As the philosopher Izyssryss once said to the Fourth Empress: 'Ssss, ssssss, sss; ssss, sss!" Poetic and so true. No, don't do that. Don't do that. A perfect translation of his words from Old High Martian; congratulations.
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Post by acousticwolf on Jul 9, 2017 9:01:39 GMT
Does not wanting a female doctor make me sexist? No (unless your reasons are misogynistic). Do I want a female Doctor? No - I think there are enough strong female characters without having to create one from a male character. Will I stop watching Doctor Who if they cast a female Doctor? No, unless she's terrible and the writing is seriously poor (much as I would with any male actor in the role). Would I burn all my Doctor Who stuff and start watching reality TV instead? Nope... Cheers Tony
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Post by kimalysong on Jul 9, 2017 13:53:49 GMT
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jul 9, 2017 14:24:53 GMT
I couldn't watch the latest Fantasic Four movie, cause they had to cast Johnny Storm as a black man. Just because they thought it was pc.
I wonder how fans will accept Roland of Gilead as a black man, especially since the majority of the second book pointed out continually that he was "white honky mofo." In the words from Detta Walker.
Change just for changes sake, is not a good thing. Besides all them ever changing Gallifreyians have such lovely British accents going on, no matter how many times they change.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2017 14:29:50 GMT
I couldn't watch the latest Fantasic Four movie, cause they had to cast Johnny Storm as a black man. Just because they thought it was pc. Or because Michael B Jordan was the actor they wanted? They didn't just cast "a black man" - they cast one of the best young actors in Hollywood and as he's proven with Creed, a guy who can lead big populist movies.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jul 9, 2017 14:53:54 GMT
I couldn't watch the latest Fantasic Four movie, cause they had to cast Johnny Storm as a black man. Just because they thought it was pc. Or because Michael B Jordan was the actor they wanted? They didn't just cast "a black man" - they cast one of the best young actors in Hollywood and as he's proven with Creed, a guy who can lead big populist movies. If for some reason, they cast a white woman as Ororo in the x men, I wouldn't watch it for the same reason. And that casting decision would get a huge backlash. I had no problem with Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury, cause he was black in the ultimate universe. But changing skin color or sex of established characters is just being to overly PC. Doctor Who is the only show, that I know of, where it would seem acceptable. And still the folks running it will not cast a black man, an Arab looking man, an Oriental man or a Native American. They don't even think about what color the doctor should be, to them, he's white.
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Post by kimalysong on Jul 9, 2017 15:13:34 GMT
Or because Michael B Jordan was the actor they wanted? They didn't just cast "a black man" - they cast one of the best young actors in Hollywood and as he's proven with Creed, a guy who can lead big populist movies. If for some reason, they cast a white woman as Ororo in the x men, I wouldn't watch it for the same reason. And that casting decision would get a huge backlash. I had no problem with Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury, cause he was black in the ultimate universe. But changing skin color or sex of established characters is just being to overly PC. Doctor Who is the only show, that I know of, where it would seem acceptable. And still the folks running it will not cast a black man, an Arab looking man, an Oriental man or a Native American. They don't even think about what color the doctor should be, to them, he's white. So your point is just because something hasn't happened yet it won't ever happen? No one has ever said the Doctor can't be an actor of color. I don't know how anyone could argue that without sounding racist. The Doctor is an alien. Also Asian not oriental is the accepted term these days. Oriental is offensive to some and at the very least very outdated.
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Post by kinghumble on Jul 9, 2017 16:30:29 GMT
Well, I for one agree the Doctor should never be a heavy textile carpet from India.
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Post by kinghumble on Jul 9, 2017 16:44:49 GMT
No, I think... Put yourself in the shoes of a sci-fi fan waitress who gets sexually harassed all day. Wouldn't it be awesome for her to see it announced next week that Phoebe Waller-Bridge will put on the scarf? Partly to see a character on screen who reminds her of herself, but also to hope this will teach her nephews to respect women?
Beyond that, I also think a female Doctor is good business, and good artistically. Doctor Who survives as a franchise by constantly re-inventing itself. How is it healthy to insist on stagnation, on only ever being one gender?
As a side-note, though, I did appreciate the comment on how Xena outstripped Hercules in cultural relevance. I do think it would be awesome if, for example, we had a spin-off show where River Song broke from that Library mainframe David Tennant dropped her into and somehow got her regenerations back! Might help her character to evolve away from the Doctor-obsessed fan-girl she sometimes seemed to be
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 9, 2017 16:56:01 GMT
Johnny Storm is black? Cool. Ororo is white? Not Cool. Why? Same reason casting Scarlett Johannson in Ghost in the Shell was not cool, because their narrative background is part of their definition. At no point is Johnny Storm's race relevant to his character or background or further development. Superman could easily be black without a problem, he's another alien. Batman? No. Because if you're building any real world reality into your show then the familial history and industrialist billionaire background for that character as yet precludes that. Wonder Woman? Sure, she could have been though her origin as part of a Greek influenced myth cycle is fiddly. Captain America? Yep. But not the Steve Rogers version, because of their specific history. So it isn't just simple swapping. And let's not talk of the abomination of the whitewashed Airbender movie.
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