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Post by doctorkernow on Feb 1, 2020 19:35:25 GMT
Hello again. I'm sorry but Brexit seems to have done nothing but intensify feelings of xenophobia and hatred of anyone different. This story from Norwich is just one example. The sheer vitriolic hatred that bubbles under the surface may become more obvious now we have left the EU. Mr. Cameron, Mrs May, Mr. Johnson, Mr Corbyn and a great many of our so called political leaders and representatives have unleashed the very worst of human nature. I really hope this country does not become a backward looking, hate-filled, angry and intolerant little country. I am usually a more optomistic person, but this and other even worse events really upset me. I have teenage daughters, I worry for them entering an adult world where attitudes of hatred become more common. I hope things settle down, but I don't think they will. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-51341735
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2020 22:41:39 GMT
I see the hashtag #thick is trending on Twitter with 23k tweets, from pro remainers. Really, the level of insults and name calling because a sizeable proportion of the UK has a different perspective. There always were arguments for and against remaining or exiting. Most people on both sides are closer to meeting in the middle ground than the chattering classes care to see. Absolutism of ones own perspective is a very closed mindset. To me, it is more insulting of their own intelligence, given their refusal to see both sides of an argument, which I was always taught to appreciate and aspire to as a measure of cognitive ability. Edit: And lets remember that it is not a closed door if it does not work out - the EU is clearly understanding of the national divide and had made it very clear that the door is open and we are welcome to return should we come to regret the decision. Nothing ventured nothing gained. We are not being treated as pariahs as there are similar movements in other countries and we are very much a test case for the future of the trading block. Adapt to survive is the lesson they are now looking towards, otherwise a domino effect could result. I suspect that should we wish to return, it would not be as a lesser partner, if the EU changes in response to these events. The mistakes that led to the referendum have been acknowledged by the press in other countries and the vitriol and mockery I have seen has been more pronounced within this country.Having looked through that cesspool of nastiness that constitutes that hashtag I want to thank you for reminding just why I closed my account down over there in the first place. It's one thing to disagree with the other side's perspective if you can maintain a level of respect for the people who hold that perspective, but the vitriol on that hashtag aimed primarily at the two women interviewed on the BBC last night for their thoughts on Brexit and at Leave voters in general is just vile. Same can be said for the scathing comments and truimphalism aimed at Remainers in the run up to January 31st. Derogatory remarks online and posting pictures purely to provoke achieves nothing but festering rancor between both sides, when really the focus should be on the individuals in power who promised the moon and the stars if we left the EU. Now that we have they have less than a year to deliver on those promises and we should all remind them of that fact on a daily basis. And that is something I hope Leavers and Remainers could agree on.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2020 23:23:11 GMT
Hello again. I'm sorry but Brexit seems to have done nothing but intensify feelings of xenophobia and hatred of anyone different. This story from Norwich is just one example. The sheer vitriolic hatred that bubbles under the surface may become more obvious now we have left the EU. Mr. Cameron, Mrs May, Mr. Johnson, Mr Corbyn and a great many of our so called political leaders and representatives have unleashed the very worst of human nature. I really hope this country does not become a backward looking, hate-filled, angry and intolerant little country. I am usually a more optomistic person, but this and other even worse events really upset me. I have teenage daughters, I worry for them entering an adult world where attitudes of hatred become more common. I hope things settle down, but I don't think they will. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-51341735A true story. My current employment means I work alongside a number of EU nationals from eastern Europe. I like to think I can get along with most of them, but months ago I started to notice that whenever I walked back into the staff room the conversation would switch from their own language to English, or worse still they would apologise to me for doing so. Normally I would just wave it off and tell them not to be daft and carry on the conversation in their own language if they wanted to, but as the weeks went on and the situation continued it started to bug me. So one night I asked them why. They told me that weeks beforehand the Manager (who is an EU national herself) had called a meeting of all EU nationals working on site to inform them that due to a number of angry complaints from English workers about members of staff holding conversations in Polish or Czech or Estonian or Latvian they were not allowed to speak in their mother tongue if working alongside the English. It was "to keep the peace" in her words. I didn't know what to say after that. Sadly you are right doctorkernow. The casual racism and the extremes of xenophobia and outright hatred of foreign nationals and indeed the LGBT community that I remember as being so prevalent throughout the seventies, eighties and into the early nineties (Do you remember "Up Yours Delors!"? The outcry over Eastenders showing an onscreen kiss between two men? The vitriol when the AIDS epidemic erupted? TV 'comedies' such as Mind Your Language and Love Thy Neighour?) never really went away. The referendum merely let it back in.
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Post by doctorkernow on Feb 1, 2020 23:50:53 GMT
Hello again. Oh Brigadier, how awful... "Keep the peace", in other words appease the bigots. Terrific. Right. So all English people going abroad are now not allowed to speak in English when they visit France, Germany, Spain or Italy so that the locals are not upset. I was just upset, now I'm fe-king furious. By the way I love your tagline. Hang on to your far flung hopes and improbable dreams Brigadier.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 0:05:40 GMT
Hello again. Oh Brigadier, how awful... "Keep the peace", in other words appease the bigots. Terrific. Right. So all English people going abroad are now not allowed to speak in English when they visit France, Germany, Spain or Italy so that the locals are not upset. I was just upset, now I'm fe-king furious. By the way I love your tagline. Hang on to your far flung hopes and improbable dreams Brigadier. Then you can imagine how I felt and still feel when I had time to process what I was told that night. It is why I told them a few days later that as far as I was concerned if they want to converse in their own language while I was about go right ahead. A small act of rebellion, but one that I hope conveyed a message of support to my colleagues. I will keep my fingers crossed that the people of Norwich will convey a similar message to the residents of Winchester Towers. Oh..I have a very tight grip on my far flung hopes and improbable dreams...😊
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Post by number13 on Feb 2, 2020 1:23:17 GMT
It might be worth pointing out to the person behind that notice that there are four languages of the British Isles currently spoken within the UK, not just English. (Or is it five?)
And not so very long ago there were also people who spoke Cornish as their first language.
We have always been a multi-lingual nation even if some people tried to deny it. (For example, my Welsh ancestors a couple of generations back would have been absolutely forbidden to speak Welsh in school.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 2:04:15 GMT
It might be worth pointing out to the person behind that notice that there are four languages of the British Isles currently spoken within the UK, not just English. (Or is it five?)
And not so very long ago there were also people who spoke Cornish as their first language.
We have always been a multi-lingual nation even if some people tried to deny it. (For example, my Welsh ancestors a couple of generations back would have been absolutely forbidden to speak Welsh in school.)
You know, that reminds me shamefully how it is something of a joke abroad how many multi-lingual people of other nationalities speak English far better than many of our own natives, who know no other language to start with (and not that much of their own)...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 2:58:47 GMT
Somehow I don't think that someone putting up that kind of sign is going to listen to reason about how multi-lingual the UK already is - and a lot more people speak languages from other countries here than do the likes of Welsh or Gaelic, official languages or not. Debating with a closed mind? That person having the facts pointed out woud probably take that as liberal elitism, talking down to them.
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Post by Timelord007 on Feb 2, 2020 9:50:00 GMT
Finally, a great day, I'm proud to be British. I feel the complete opposite. But out of interest, how specifically will your life be better by leaving the EU. We need take back control of our country & not be ruled by others we've taken in more immigrants than other countries who have not contributed to our economy but either taken jobs cause of cheap labour which isn't fair to them or our UK workers, many immigrants coming over have used our benefit system, Nhs & bleed our resources dry, sooner or later the wishing wells going dry up, EU has done nothing for us & the Euro as a currency is on it's arse & were better out than in. We should be free negotiate our own trade deals & have a point system like Australia of those seeking live in England can afford to. Time make Britain great again, is it going to happen over night of course not there be obstacles in the way but i have to believe that in the long term it is the best deal for us leaving the E.U. Sorry if people disagree but that is my opinions.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Feb 2, 2020 10:25:06 GMT
It might be worth pointing out to the person behind that notice that there are four languages of the British Isles currently spoken within the UK, not just English. (Or is it five?)
And not so very long ago there were also people who spoke Cornish as their first language.
We have always been a multi-lingual nation even if some people tried to deny it. (For example, my Welsh ancestors a couple of generations back would have been absolutely forbidden to speak Welsh in school.)
Aye, did the knot get passed around? It was the tally stick in my ancestors' day.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 11:41:19 GMT
I feel the complete opposite. But out of interest, how specifically will your life be better by leaving the EU. We need take back control of our country & not be ruled by others we've taken in more immigrants than other countries who have not contributed to our economy but either taken jobs cause of cheap labour which isn't fair to them or our UK workers, many immigrants coming over have used our benefit system, Nhs & bleed our resources dry, sooner or later the wishing wells going dry up, EU has done nothing for us & the Euro is on it's arse & were better out than in. We should be free negotiate our own trade deals & have a point system like Australia of those seeking live in England can afford to. Time make Britain great again, is it going to happen over night of course not there be obstacles in the way but i have to believe that in the long term it is the best deal for us leaving the E.U. Sorry if people disagree but that is my opinions. You are of course entitled to your opinion but I don't think everything you say is factually accurate. We do not take in more immigrants than other countries. & of course ending freedom of movement works both ways. In respect of free trade we will need to renegotiate with the EU - they are our biggest trading partner making up for 45% of exports & 53% of imports, so we can't just stop trading with them. It will be interesting to see how these renegotiations will go now we are in a less favourable position.
& as for the claim that the EU has done nothing for us, the EU invests approximately £5 billion a year in the UK. I know we do have financial responsibilities towards the EU but not sure if the government have made any guarantees to invest the equivalent with the money we will not be sending to the EU. I don't think the EU is perfect, it certainly needs reform, but I feel we are worse off out of it. We shall see what the future holds but I am not optimistic.
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Post by Timelord007 on Feb 2, 2020 13:10:46 GMT
Time will tell my friend it always does.
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Post by doctorkernow on Feb 2, 2020 13:16:42 GMT
Hello again.
And that is why I only post on this forum. You are able to have a civilised debate. JohnHurtDoctor and Timelord007, well done for disagreeing without being disrespectful.
Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2020 16:34:50 GMT
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 3, 2020 10:28:04 GMT
Well I for one am still waiting for someone who voted leave (& I have spoken to a few) to give me any real tangible reasons why they voted leave & how they will be better off having left the EU. There may very well be valid reasons but all I have heard are vague statements about getting our country back, getting our sovereignty back, & vague statements about getting Brexit done. Another example to that provided by James Dyson (in the other thread), was that cited by the CEO of Tate & Lyle Sugars, which use Cane Sugars imported from outside of the EU. This is subject to Tariffs, whilst Beet Sugar such as used by Silverspoon and other European competitors, is sourced from within the EU and thereby not subject to Tariffs, but in fact in recipient of EU subsidy. The CEO of Tate & Lyle argued that his company was in effect having to subsidise his companies own competition through Tariffs. By ending our membership, it is anticipated that we may be able to move beyond a situation whereby British Manufacturers are not disadvantaged by subsidies that strengthen manufacturing in countries where the economy is deemed more dependent upon it, whilst other companies fall into administration elsewhere. Rules prevent member states bailing out companies from administration or providing subsidy themselves. Anyhow, I hope you appreciate that I am not argumentative. Feel free to counter with any benefits we stand to lose out on. I will quite likely agree with you on more than a few. Saying that some companies will benefit from being outside the EU is not, in itself, an argument for Leave. Likewise, pointing out that other companies will suffer from being outside the EU is not, in itself, an argument for Remain. In both cases it is simply stating the obvious. Every individual company, every sector of the economy will be affected differently by brexit depending on their products, their supply chain, and if they import more from / export more to the EU or the rest of the world. Leavers and Remainers alike agree on that. Where they disagree is whether the cumulative impact on all these companies and industries will be a net positive or a net negative for the UK economy.
If you want to make an argument for Leave then you have to make a case that it will be a net positive for the UK economy and that the gains will outweigh the losses. And that is what Leavers have singularly failed to do. Consider the following:
1. The UK trades more with the EU than ROW (rest of world). Therefore, all other things being equal, the losses from EU trade will outweigh the gains in ROW trade. Over time trade barriers between the EU and the UK may shift that balance but that will be a painful transition - a bit like learning to walk with an artificial leg after your leg has been amputated. You will eventually be able to walk again, but getting to that point is not a pleasant process that anyone would want to go through. 2. The losses from barriers to EU trade are certain, the only uncertainty is how big. The harder the brexit, the bigger the losses. The gains from ROW trade are hypothetical, they rest on the assumption that the UK will be able to secure better trading terms that the EU did. And yet the Leavers have never convincingly explained how the UK will get better trade deals than the EU (see below for more on this). 3. The EU losses will be felt immediately after the transition ends. The ROW gains will only materialise if and when trade deals have been negotiated (and as we have all heard ad infinitum the average trade deal takes 7 years to negotiate) 4. The reality of logistics and communication means that, all other things being equal, countries will trade more with their nearest neighbours than countries further away. Yes, when things are dirt-cheap produced in China countries will buy from China, but the UK is not exporting dirt-cheap goods and services, and the EU is our most natural and obvious export market because of its proximity.
The fundamental weakness in the economic case for Leave is that they cannot explain exactly how the UK will get a better trade deal than the EU. Take a trade deal with, say, Australia for example. The EU can offer Australian exporter access to a market of 450 million people, while the UK can offer access to a market of 65 million. Which one will be more lucrative for Australian exporters? Clearly the EU which is larger market. Which one will Australia therefore be more willing to make concessions to get access to? Again, clearly the EU. Furthermore, the UK will also be in the psychologically weaker position in trade negotiations with ROW. The UK will be desperate for quick deals, both to offset the economic losses caused by barriers to trade with the EU and, perhaps more importantly, for the brexiteers to vindicate the decision to leave the EU. As such the UK's desperation in negotiations will more than likely be exploited and we will not get good deals. And if we look at the much talked about US-UK trade deal, the UK is drawing red lines and taking US agricultural products off the table (the notorious chlorinated chicken) and ruling out US pharmaceuticals getting involved in the NHS, so you have to wonder what red lines the US will draw to offset the UK's red lines and just how good the eventual deal will end up being.
That is all assuming the UK goes for a fairly hard brexit as the government are now indicating. I suspect they will go for a softer brexit and all the current talk is simply hot air. In which case the economic damage will be much less, but we will be back to what Tony Blair called the pointless brexit and Jacob Rees-Mogg called brexit in name only - still bound by the rules, but no longer getting a vote on them. If you look at how the deal on the NI backstop was done, Johnston and Cummings adopted the principle of "get the reputation of an early riser and you can lie in bed until lunchtime". Talk tough beforehand, raise the white flag in negotiations and then come out afterwards all guns blazing saying you have got a good deal. But Johnston won't really care, since he never really cared about brexit anyway, it was only ever a convenient vehicle to get him into 10 Downing Street.
I don't honestly think there are any rational arguments for brexit now. In 2016, before the referendum, the Leave arguments sounded quite plausible and a rational person could have gone along with them, but the reality of the negotiations since then has exposed them as delusional. The UK does not hold all the cards as Michael Gove said, the opposite is in fact true. A trade deal with the EU is not the easiest deal in the world. The UK has not taken back control - it has gained a sort of de jure sovereignty at the expense of much less de facto control. Saying there are benefits to brexit is missing the point - of course there are some benefits, everything in life has its good points and its bad points, but to make a case for brexit you have to demonstrate that the benefits are (a) achievable and (b) will outweigh the costs. But the brexiteers can't and don't do this - instead all they do is offer slogans in place of reasoned arguments.
Originally brexit was a means to an end - making us more prosperous - but as the fallacy of that notion has become more and more apparent "getting brexit done" has become an end in itself, something to be done for its own sake. Hard as it is to believe, before the referendum Farage said he would be very happy with a Norway style relationship with the EU - now he denounces they very suggestion as a betrayal of brexit. This continual moving of the goalposts shows what is really driving pro-brexit sentiment. When you look at the irrationality and the fanaticism of Tory MPs Mark Francois and Andrea Jenkyns you see the reality of brexit. Since 2016 it has become a sort of irrational hysteria that has gripped a large section of the UK population. If you look at countries around the world, there are times when a sort of hysteria grips a large section of the population - McCarthyism in the USA is the example that most readily springs to mind. Sadly, the UK is going through such a time. That is why the UK is and remains so divided by brexit - reason and sanity on one side versus irrationality and hysteria on the other and never the twain shall meet
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 3, 2020 10:54:59 GMT
EU has published its negotiating guidelines - it is clear fishing access to UK waters is going to be one of their red lines and the UK will have no option but to concede. Why would any sensible country put itself in this weakened position?
Prediction time: Here's how the EU negotiations are going to go
First the brexiteers sold out Northern Ireland, and I did not speak out— Because I was not from Northern Ireland.
Then they sold out the fishermen, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a fisherman.
Then they sold out .... etc., etc.
Then they sold out the industry I work in — and I was too busy looking for another job to feed my family to speak out for myself.
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Post by number13 on Feb 3, 2020 12:18:14 GMT
EU has published its negotiating guidelines - it is clear fishing access to UK waters is going to be one of their red lines and the UK will have no option but to concede. Why would any sensible country put itself in this weakened position? Then they sold out the fishermen, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a fisherman. Serious question: What would be the problem if the status quo is maintained with the EU re fishing and fish sales into the EU? Fishing and certainly fishing further offshore is primarily a Scottish industry and surely Scotland voted for the status quo so that would be a 'win'?
(I'm not saying it will/not turn out that way, I haven't a clue. And it probably wouldn't be popular in the SW.)
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Post by sherlock on Feb 3, 2020 12:25:24 GMT
EU has published its negotiating guidelines - it is clear fishing access to UK waters is going to be one of their red lines and the UK will have no option but to concede. Why would any sensible country put itself in this weakened position? Then they sold out the fishermen, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a fisherman. Serious question: What would be the problem if the status quo is maintained with the EU re fishing and fish sales into the EU? Fishing and certainly fishing further offshore is primarily a Scottish industry and surely Scotland voted for the status quo so that would be a 'win'?
(I'm not saying it will/not turn out that way, I haven't a clue. And it probably wouldn't be popular in the SW.) It would be a political issue as the government kept promising that Brexit would mean ‘taking back control of our waters.’
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Post by number13 on Feb 3, 2020 12:34:38 GMT
Serious question: What would be the problem if the status quo is maintained with the EU re fishing and fish sales into the EU? Fishing and certainly fishing further offshore is primarily a Scottish industry and surely Scotland voted for the status quo so that would be a 'win'?
(I'm not saying it will/not turn out that way, I haven't a clue. And it probably wouldn't be popular in the SW.) It would be a political issue as the government kept promising that Brexit would mean ‘taking back control of our waters.’ This, most definitely, for Brexiteers who fish (many in the SW I think) and for people elsewhere with a 'romantic' view of the seas.
But it was raised as 'selling out' from the other side of the argument and I can't see why from a Remain viewpoint it would be that - surely for Remainers, the more we stay closely aligned, the better? So I was/am puzzled.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 3, 2020 12:35:25 GMT
EU has published its negotiating guidelines - it is clear fishing access to UK waters is going to be one of their red lines and the UK will have no option but to concede. Why would any sensible country put itself in this weakened position? Then they sold out the fishermen, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a fisherman. Serious question: What would be the problem if the status quo is maintained with the EU re fishing and fish sales into the EU? Fishing and certainly fishing further offshore is primarily a Scottish industry and surely Scotland voted for the status quo so that would be a 'win'?
(I'm not saying it will/not turn out that way, I haven't a clue. And it probably wouldn't be popular in the SW.) For me personally? None whatsoever, but then I am not involved in the fishing industry and I don't eat much fish. I have this irrational fear of choking on a bone and can never enjoy a fish dish for worrying too much. I blame my mother for always warning me so much about the bones when I was a child, and training me to pick carefully through any fish before putting it in my mouth.
Back to your question .... taking back control of our waters was part of what the Leave campaign promised and the fishing industry has been one of the most pro-brexit industries. According to Farage & Co the EU lets Jonny Foreigner come into our waters and catch most of our fish while our poor fishermen end up impoverished because the nasty foreigners have got most of the fish they should be catching.
With regard to Scotland, although it was and is pro-Remain, let's not forget that approx. 38% voted Leave and the fishing industry was prominent amongst the 38%. I remember reading that the fishing vote was a significant factor in the Tories' 2017 revival in Scotland.
I saw an article last week on the BBC website that showed British boats got about a third of fish in UK waters, EU boats got 40% and Norway got 20%, so that is why it is such an emotive, flag-waving issue for the brexiteers and the fishing industry. In terms of its significance to UK GDP, fishing is little more than negligible but it is symbolically important in a urinating-contest kind of way.
Fishing illustrates (yet again) that brexit was sold on a false prospectus.
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