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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2020 17:35:38 GMT
I don't know how well this fits with everything released or indeed any future releases but here's my theory for how the 8th Doctor experiences the Time War: 8th Doctor Titan comics - just before the war starts. He's travelling with Josie. Starship of Theseus - his first step into the war, he arrives in a time when it has already been going on for months. Time is altered and Josie becomes Sheena becomes Emma becomes Louise gets erased. The rest of the 8th Doctor Time War Series (Probably) Lies in Ruins - I'm guessing something big happens in the Time War series to make 8 become the way we see him in LiR but that's just speculation. Museum Peace - 8 makes the decision to go back to the start of the war. All of the early Time War era stuff goes next, where 8 is helping where he can but not getting directly involved in the war, possibly not getting too involved as he doesn't want to alter the timeline too much. I've not got any order worked out for this but I like to think that the first thing he does is try to prevent Susan joining the War in All Hands on Deck. Night of the Doctor - after helping where he can he eventually realises he can't be passive anymore and makes the decision to regenerate into the War Doctor. Like I said I don't know how well this fits because I've not tried to listen to the stories in this way before, but it's the way it's currently sitting in my head until someone points out that it can't work for whatever reason. ETA: I think there’s a War Doctor Short Story where he goes back to the beginning of the war so it’s not like there isn’t precedent for something similar I will need to get my head round this 😎
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Post by Digi on Sept 19, 2020 1:22:50 GMT
So I had a much simpler thought on Museum Peace: what if we've all had this the wrong way around the whole time? What if, instead of being at the beginning of the Time War for Eight, it's actually right near the end of his life?
We go through our four Eighth Doctor Time War sets, plus whatever else comes next, the Doctor loses Bliss, he loses [you know who from Vol 4], he loses more and more. He is utterly broken, emotionally and psychologically, and in his despair he goes to Velyshaa to reconsider whether sitting out the war is the right decision.
He briefly decides that it's still worth living and trying to help, leaves Velyshaa, and the first place he goes / first thing he sees in his renewed but still fragile state is Cass recoiling in horror at him and choosing to die rather than trust a Time Lord. He 'dies,' is resuscitated by the Sisterhood, and finally succumbs to his despair--regenerating into John Hurt and renouncing even his own name.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 19, 2020 8:11:37 GMT
So I had a much simpler thought on Museum Peace: what if we've all had this the wrong way around the whole time? What if, instead of being at the beginning of the Time War for Eight, it's actually right near the end of his life? We go through our four Eighth Doctor Time War sets, plus whatever else comes next, the Doctor loses Bliss, he loses [you know who from Vol 4], he loses more and more. He is utterly broken, emotionally and psychologically, and in his despair he goes to Velyshaa to reconsider whether sitting out the war is the right decision. He briefly decides that it's still worth living and trying to help, leaves Velyshaa, and the first place he goes / first thing he sees in his renewed but still fragile state is Cass recoiling in horror at him and choosing to die rather than trust a Time Lord. He 'dies,' is resuscitated by the Sisterhood, and finally succumbs to his despair--regenerating into John Hurt and renouncing even his own name. Ooh that works. In fact there’s a perfect trigger for it already. By the time of Lies in Ruins the Doctor has Rita to reassure him he’s doing the right thing by staying at arm’s length from the War. After what happens to her, and the other events of that story, he’s questioning himself, whether he actually should’ve been involved in the War, what should he do now. So he goes to chat to Kalendorf. In a perfect summation of his situation, whilst he’s paralysed by doubt a child dies right in front of him. So the Doctor decides he will go to the War, he will help the innocents, he mustn’t doubt himself anymore. And the first one he tries to save slams the door in his face. I really like this idea.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 19, 2020 9:53:22 GMT
My current thinking on the Eighth Doctor’s experience of the Time War is this-
-The Doctor becomes aware of increasing temporal skirmishes which are escalating [An Ocean of Sawdust] and when the Time War is formalised chooses to stay away, being simply nowhere to be found. [Soldier Obscura] During this period of staying away, he’s embroiled in the Master’s scheme to create the Rage but loses all memory of that encounter. [Rage of the Time Lords]
-The Doctor meets Sheena and travels with her, as something of an attempt to relive the glory days whilst avoiding the escalating temporal cataclysm. When they arrive on the Theseus his recent timeline is rewritten, as a result he never travelled with Sheena/Emma/Louise, as he’s caught up in a temporal warzone for the first time. The Time War series then plays out. [Time War]
-In the wake of the Time War Series, the Doctor continues non-committal wandering, helping where he gets the opportunity but generally staying away from the War. These include working with the Time Lords to try to save Osskah’s world [Osskah], sealing the Medusa Cascade with the Great Key [The Forgotten] and picking up the pieces after a Time Destructor is deployed by the Daleks. [Natural Regression]
-The Doctor becomes increasingly sick of the War and his people’s actions in particular. He witnesses their bombing campaign on Raeve [A Heart on Both Sides], the devastation of Drakkis’ timeline during a skirmish [The Sontaran Ordeal] and the Vashta Nerada project. [Day of the Vashta Nerada] The Doctor desperately attempts to stop Susan’s recruitment but fails. She agrees to go with the Time Lords, though her pick up actually originates from an earlier point in the War than the Doctor. [All Hands on Deck] The Doctor encounters Susan again during her mission to Shoreditch in 1963, and they go their separate ways again as she continues to support the War effort. [The Shoreditch Intervention]
-The Doctor attempts to escape the War entirely again, feeling overwhelmed by his recent failures. He builds Rita to support his decisions and morale. After what happens to her, he falls into despair and starts reconsidering whether he’s now the doing right thing by staying out of the War. [Lies in Ruins] Conflicted, he visits Kalendorf for advice and witnesses a child’s death when a dying Dalek attempts to kill them. [Museum Peace] The Doctor resolves to help where he can and actively searches for places to help. He follows a distress call to a ship crashing to Karn...[The Night of the Doctor]
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 19, 2020 10:17:14 GMT
Doesn’t Day of the Vashta Nerada probably have to come before The Time War series as Ollistra tries to recruit the Doctor? It’s made pretty clear in Restoration of the Daleks that even Ollistra has given up trying to get the Doctor involved by that point.
Also I don’t feel like the Doctor would go back to non-committal wandering after Bliss goes. He’s still in that mood currently during his travels with her but she’s constantly encouraging him to get more involved and “help where they can” so I imagine by the time she leaves he’ll be committed to that.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 19, 2020 10:21:07 GMT
Doesn’t Day of the Vashta Nerada probably have to come before The Time War series as Ollistra tries to recruit the Doctor? It’s made pretty clear in Restoration of the Daleks that even Ollistra has given up trying to get the Doctor involved by that point. Day feels like a pretty half-hearted effort on her part, compared to the lengths she goes to in Time War 1. She didn’t actively seek the Doctor out, its more as he’s here she might as well lean on him a bit. She doesn’t seem that surprised when he rejects her again.
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Post by jahawk2009 on Sept 20, 2020 13:52:26 GMT
My sticking point right now is the Dalek Emperor and Rassilon. If I remember rightly, Gallifrey set 1 is right at the start of the war, and he appears in that. However, he also appears in a different context in 8th Doc Time War 4, which throws my whole interpretation of the order of things into doubt. Rassilon is also mentioned in 8th Time War 4, but isn't alive at the point of Gallifrey Time War 1. I'm confused.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 20, 2020 16:36:48 GMT
My sticking point right now is the Dalek Emperor and Rassilon. If I remember rightly, Gallifrey set 1 is right at the start of the war, and he appears in that. However, he also appears in a different context in 8th Doc Time War 4, which throws my whole interpretation of the order of things into doubt. Rassilon is also mentioned in 8th Time War 4, but isn't alive at the point of Gallifrey Time War 1. I'm confused. What different context? I don’t think there’s anything in 8DTW4 that contradicts the Emperor’s appearance in GTW1, at least not that I noticed. 8DTW4 is definitely after the Gallifrey and Susan’s War boxsets though.
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Post by Digi on Sept 20, 2020 16:43:04 GMT
My sticking point right now is the Dalek Emperor and Rassilon. If I remember rightly, Gallifrey set 1 is right at the start of the war, and he appears in that. However, he also appears in a different context in 8th Doc Time War 4, which throws my whole interpretation of the order of things into doubt. Rassilon is also mentioned in 8th Time War 4, but isn't alive at the point of Gallifrey Time War 1. I'm confused. Not clear why that's a problem exactly. You're right that the Dalek Emperor appeared in GTW1 (part 4), but we know this war rages for a very long time from the POV of its belligerents, and by the nature of both Big Finish's storytelling and of the conflict itself, we can be sure we haven't heard all possible stories between GTW1 and 8DTW4. There's no reason why (Eighth Doctor Time War 4 spoiler) he couldn't have been destroyed and erased at some point in the war, leading to the need for Davros to resurrect him in 8DTW4.
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Post by jahawk2009 on Sept 20, 2020 16:43:57 GMT
My sticking point right now is the Dalek Emperor and Rassilon. If I remember rightly, Gallifrey set 1 is right at the start of the war, and he appears in that. However, he also appears in a different context in 8th Doc Time War 4, which throws my whole interpretation of the order of things into doubt. Rassilon is also mentioned in 8th Time War 4, but isn't alive at the point of Gallifrey Time War 1. I'm confused. Not clear why that's a problem exactly. You're right that the Dalek Emperor appeared in GTW1 (part 4), but we know this war rages for a very long time from the POV of its belligerents, and by the nature of both Big Finish's storytelling and of the conflict itself, we can be sure we haven't heard all possible stories between GTW1 and 8DTW4. There's no reason why (Eighth Doctor Time War 4 spoiler) he couldn't have been destroyed and erased at some point in the war, leading to the need for Davros to resurrect him in 8DTW4. I think it's down to me trying to put everything into neat boxes, which obviously isn't possible in a TIME war that we're hearing out of order anyway
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 20, 2020 16:47:02 GMT
Not clear why that's a problem exactly. You're right that the Dalek Emperor appeared in GTW1 (part 4), but we know this war rages for a very long time from the POV of its belligerents, and by the nature of both Big Finish's storytelling and of the conflict itself, we can be sure we haven't heard all possible stories between GTW1 and 8DTW4. There's no reason why (Eighth Doctor Time War 4 spoiler) he couldn't have been destroyed and erased at some point in the war, leading to the need for Davros to resurrect him in 8DTW4. I think it's down to me trying to put everything into neat boxes, which obviously isn't possible in a TIME war that we're hearing out of order anyway {Eighth Doctor Time War 3/4} The only Dalek left alive in The War Valeyard is the Dalek Time Strategist and he resurrects Davros in the alternate universe along with the rest of the Dalek race in Palindrome, leading to the Emperor’s return to the regular universe in Restoration of the Daleks.
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Post by jahawk2009 on Sept 20, 2020 16:48:12 GMT
I think it's down to me trying to put everything into neat boxes, which obviously isn't possible in a TIME war that we're hearing out of order anyway {Eighth Doctor Time War 3/4} The only Dalek left alive in The War Valeyard is the Dalek Time Strategist and he resurrects Davros in the alternate universe along with the rest of the Dalek race in Palindrome, leading to the Emperor’s return to the regular universe in Restoration of the Daleks. I may well have overthought this and confused myself
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Post by SG. on Sept 21, 2020 0:44:45 GMT
{Eighth Doctor Time War 3/4} The only Dalek left alive in The War Valeyard is the Dalek Time Strategist and he resurrects Davros in the alternate universe along with the rest of the Dalek race in Palindrome, leading to the Emperor’s return to the regular universe in Restoration of the Daleks. I may well have overthought this and confused myself To be fair, it's confusing as The War Valeyard doesn't focus too much on the fact that at the point, the War basically ends, as literally all Daleks get wiped out, including the Emperor. So they all need to be resurrected by the time we get to Restoration of the Daleks. Imagine it like a glitch in the timeline of the War.
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Post by Digi on Sept 21, 2020 4:33:13 GMT
I'll also be interested to see how War Master 5 (Eight/War Master/Narvin), War Master 6, and GTW4 (Narvin/Rassilon) reframe some of this. As it stands, I'm not terribly fond of the War Master dropping out of the war so early, or having that story break up the GTW series. I'd be much happier with him being a part of the conflict for much longer, perhaps even into the War Doctor timeframe.
Actually as I type this I'm having something nag at the back of my brain - isn't the Nightmare Child referenced in both Restoration of the Daleks and The Heavenly Paradigm? Granted it's been quite some time since I listened to Only the Good, so there are better than even odds that I'm misremembering.
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Post by sherlock on Sept 21, 2020 7:42:51 GMT
I'll also be interested to see how War Master 5 (Eight/War Master/Narvin), War Master 6, and GTW4 (Narvin/Rassilon) reframe some of this. As it stands, I'm not terribly fond of the War Master dropping out of the war so early, or having that story break up the GTW series. I'd be much happier with him being a part of the conflict for much longer, perhaps even into the War Doctor timeframe. Actually as I type this I'm having something nag at the back of my brain - isn't the Nightmare Child referenced in both Restoration of the Daleks and The Heavenly Paradigm? Granted it's been quite some time since I listened to Only the Good, so there are better than even odds that I'm misremembering. If you take Titan Comics into account, the Master actually was around in the War Doctor’s time in an incarnation pre-Jacobi. He gets caught up in a paradox and his TARDIS is flung off somewhere whilst he’s forced to regenerate into Jacobi’s incarnation, presumably coming into contact with pre-War and early War Time Lords. So whilst for the Time Lords it’s early stages of the War, the Master might have experienced much more of it.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Sept 21, 2020 12:37:00 GMT
Isn’t it the cruciform that’s referenced in The Heavenly Paradigm, rather than the Nightmare Child?
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Post by Digi on Sept 21, 2020 14:00:46 GMT
Ohh I think you’re right.
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Post by sherlock on Oct 14, 2020 9:49:52 GMT
Despite using the Time War theme tune, He Kills Me, He Kills Me Not has no reference to the Time War. So I’m leaving TLV off the Saga for now.
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Post by jahawk2009 on Oct 14, 2020 9:53:46 GMT
Despite using the Time War theme tune, He Kills Me, He Kills Me Not has no reference to the Time War. So I’m leaving TLV off the Saga for now. I think it's pre-War for the Doctor. Aroundabout Master of Callous time. Interesting to know it has zero references though. Wonder if the Dalek stories will
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Post by shallacatop on Oct 14, 2020 10:10:17 GMT
Despite using the Time War theme tune, He Kills Me, He Kills Me Not has no reference to the Time War. So I’m leaving TLV off the Saga for now. I think it's pre-War for the Doctor. Aroundabout Master of Callous time. Interesting to know it has zero references though. Wonder if the Dalek stories will I'd say not, just with how distinctly different they've made the Daleks in Time Lord Victorious. They all use the Time War / new series design, except the Prime Strategist (who has a reason for that!), but they've not used the bronze / gold livery. I think it's intentional to separate this from the Time War and marketed it as another one in some materials.
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