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Post by doomlord on Jun 9, 2018 17:05:07 GMT
Did I want or need a Female Doctor? No but we've got one (and thankfully she's a better Actor than the 2 "Bookie's Favourites" are IMO) Now the broader issue "Fandom wanted it" or "Its time Who got with the times" When did it start well not through Fandom. There were legitimate calls for Female Equality in all areas, the Acting profession and Production Companies have responded by calling for roles to be as non-gender specific as possible, so the BBC went "Ah shape changing alien we can make the Doctor a Women no problem and be On Message in the Industry". Then the Backlash started and anyone who doesn't like it is seen as wrong and publicly called out as wrong. So will I watch it? (Yes) Will I enjoy it (Hopefully) Do I think Millennial Social Commentary in general is being put before the simple enjoyment of the programme? (Slowly but surely yes). Regards mark687 That new 'shape-changing alien' buzzword that seems to have since cropped up irks me. The Doctor is not a shape-shifter, Maya from Space:1999 and Odo from DS9 are shape-shifters. The regeneration process is a rejuvenation or renewal of old or damaged body cells.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jun 9, 2018 17:42:06 GMT
Because simply disagreeing with it doesn't mean that you necessarily have to say so. It's well known that you are against the idea of a female Doctor, and as such it isn't necessary for you to keep saying so. This tends to lead to circular arguments that end up going nowhere. By not continuing, we needn't have to read the same players going through the same motions every time something to do with this topic crops up. (Disclaimer: I'm not trying to attack or offend here, I'm merely making an observation ) Not everyone on this forum knows who I feel. New members are always joining, and they may agree or disagree with me and others. You, for example, didn't have to reply, but you did. I don't know who you feel and don't really want to know either. Good luck to them!!!
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Post by anothermanicmondas on Jun 9, 2018 18:29:36 GMT
I didn't partiucularly want a Female Doctor (and am not aware of needing one) Having said that:- 1) The Doctor has been an established history of regenerating into different versions of himself with significantly different appearances and a variation in personality (though much of the core personality is pretty constant) 2) the defining character traits of the Doctor are gender-neutral so a woman could have these traits without re-defining those traits So a female Doctor is plausible to me (Note neither of the above would apply to James Bond)
The big question we are left with is how much is someone defined by their gender? Would the gender-change alter the character so much the character would no longer be the Doctor as we knew him?
This, I have to wait and see - which ties in with my general belief that anyone cast as the Doctor deserves 2 stories to prove themselves - so far, all have been brilliant in their own ways -though the classic Doctors all needed a warm-up story before they could truly begin their eras.
But moving from "I" to "we" I can see there is an increasing call for diversity (which is a good thing). Properly establishing a female version of the Doctor who is not the Doctor could be awkward.. As wonderful as Benny, Iris, Sarah Jane, River, Romana, etc are they are not the Doctor and will probably never reach an equal level in society/fandom's consciusness A female Doctor, IF handled properly, seems a natural way in which the demand could be met without making the gender issue feel too forced.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 9, 2018 20:27:03 GMT
Basically we have a woman Doctor Who and it's clear to me and many other people that we needed one. With me, I never wanted to ne the Doctor. Then I saw Jodie. And because of the magic of Doctor Who seeing a Female Doctor made me realise as a female I wanted to be the Paul McGann Doctor. Because although I didn't realise I wanted to be the Doctor until a woman did it... She's just the same as Paul and Pat and Tom etcetera. There is something so beautiful about knowing I can be the Doctor because of Jodie and actually modelling myself after one of her male incarnation. Curiously I think now anyone identifying as female who cosplays as the Doctor (considering your comment about 8) will NOT be gender swapping in the same way as other characters are gender swapped in cosplay, simply because the Doctor is (so far) both male and female, and 8 could have been female. I think considering everything we've seen so far the only Doctors who were guaranteed to be male were 1 and the War Doctor. Anyway. As for everything else? I never needed a female Doctor, doesn't mean there shouldn't be one. Let's give her the same chance we gave the others.
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Post by barnabaslives on Jun 9, 2018 21:31:00 GMT
Some are also filling a post Sarah Jane gap. It makes me super emotional to watch Sarah Jane but it's not written or scripted as Female Doctor Who but in many ways she is. I get excited in the same way about being Sarah Jane as I do about being the Doctor. So I think in some ways Sarah Jane helped us realise a female Doctor would be amazing but left us with a huge insurmountable unfillable Sarah Jane gap. And that's kind of where I'm at is what are people's thoughts on how long we have needed a female Doctor? We know Tom commented on it but when he was travelling with strong willed and independent Sarah Jane and Romana if we wanted a female Doctor it wasn't felt as strong back then because Sarah and Romana were such big and beloved personality I think in many ways girls like me didn't think we couldn't be the Doctor.... We thought we could be Romana or Sarah. Especially with their audio and telly spinoffs they sorta became the Doctor themselves. I find your sentiments here very insightful because the way you seem to have it framed really does make a female Doctor seem less likely a sudden contrivance or an attempt to be politically correct. I struggle with the distinction a bit because I think some of the upcoming stories may tend to lean in the direction of that, but you do have a very good point. It does indeed seem a bit odd that I can frame Romana or River Song so well as a "female Doctor" but always interpreted them as meaning any need for a female Doctor was already being met, rather than that it wasn't being met. I think you're right, because I can look back in hindsight now at Romana and Sarah Jane especially and sort of see where that's pointing to and it truly has been going on longer than Steven Moffat or Chris Chibnall. So kind of two questions. How long has there been a real need for a woman Doctor Who.... and what makes a story not a substitution but complementary to the show. It might be one reason that maybe I'm more surprised by Jodie than I should have been that I personally don't seem to need the Doctor to be a woman, or for the Doctor not to be - well, that and that I think the series has always had great female leads all the way back to Barbara and Susan. I've always found heroes and role models in the characters regardless of gender or status. (Adric and Nyssa are still heroes to me, as are some other companions). Feel free to mention any story or series you think has a strong female center but makes itself it's own thing with the writing. I think Big Finish's Gallifrey series absolutely must be mentioned here, Iris Wildthyme also, and Bernice and probably Charlotte Pollard. For brevity I won't quote the passages but thank you for that most wonderful description of Auntie Iris!
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Post by jasonward on Jun 9, 2018 22:14:35 GMT
I just don't see there was a "need", not from the perspective of story telling, not from the perspective show promotion/future. And I didn't notice fans or fandom clamouring for a female Doctor, indeed all those I saw saying it was a good idea were coming from a political stand point, they wanted to promote the roles of women, to create a hero for girls.
So whilst those political ideals are great, and any show, especially a sci-fi show will be a reflection of the times they are written in, it should be the story that drives what we see on screen.
So the question "How long has there been a real need for a woman Doctor Who" is answered by never, it has never been a need. But don't take that to mean I'm saying The Doctor has a real need to be a man either, perhaps in times past it needed to be a man because that's what TV audiences wanted/expected, but today that's far more fluid.
My current dislike of the situation we find ourselves in today is it appears to have nothing to do with telling a story, and everything about being fashionable.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 9, 2018 22:38:25 GMT
I just don't see there was a "need", not from the perspective of story telling, not from the perspective show promotion/future. And I didn't notice fans or fandom clamouring for a female Doctor, indeed all those I saw saying it was a good idea were coming from a political stand point, they wanted to promote the roles of women, to create a hero for girls. So whilst those political ideals are great, and any show, especially a sci-fi show will be a reflection of the times they are written in, it should be the story that drives what we see on screen. So the question "How long has there been a real need for a woman Doctor Who" is answered by never, it has never been a need. But don't take that to mean I'm saying The Doctor has a real need to be a man either, perhaps in times past it needed to be a man because that's what TV audiences wanted/expected, but today that's far more fluid. My current dislike of the situation we find ourselves in today is it appears to have nothing to do with telling a story, and everything about being fashionable. However well-intended, I feel you're being a tad reductive in dismissing it as wholly political. My response to was 'there a need?': look through all the cosplays, female and male, old and young, and all the fan art that's been piling up since Jodie's announcement, people who have no stake in the culture war. I'd say there was one. Something doesn't come from nothing, unless you're going to argue that those little girls dressing as Jodie that have done the rounds on reddit and social media are somehow being paid off by the Beeb.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 22:51:27 GMT
I'm not sure what Alt-Right is as it's not a term we use for politics over here, but generally once the mainstream take up a position on anything, anyone who disagrees with them gets branded with some insulting term. So in this 'female Doctor' discussion, people who didn't want a female Doctor got called sexist in a variety of places, simply because they dared to disagree with the majority! In life it is okay for people to have different opinions from another person, free speech works both ways. But at times the way the world and populist media have it everyone has to think the same and agree with what they believe is 'right'... if you don't then you're akin to some monster.
I don't see anyone stirring things up here, just people with different opinions on a variety of things, which I love to see. Discussing things is good as we are not sheep who have to blindly follow the herd. Internet forums would be very boring if everyone thought the same as everyone else.
Oh, I don't see it here, but Christ, fandom at large? We're seeing Nazis, white supremists and others of their ilk weave themselves into fandoms, delibertly trying to create a divide so we can't talk about things like this and make the conversation more difficult, taking advantage of the reactive nature of the internet, particularly with younger fans, using drip feed tactics. It is something which is happening. It's a recongition of the power of stories, and if they can change the narrative......
EDIT 1:
Not everyone who holds a contary opinion on the issues of a female Doctor is like that, but there are people who will latch onto that. We are living in scary times.
EDIT 2:
And those people don't care about Doctor Who. They use fandom to pursure their dark agendas. Trust me, they'll let it burn with glee when the time comes and everything it stands for.
EDIT 3:
Just to finish up: you can and there are valid strong good arguments agasint having a female Doctor and that's great, I've seen some very persuasive and important arguments about why The Doctor should have remained a man (role model for boys) not everyone has to agree, but there are people using the argument to pursure some very dark agendas.
Moderator comment - When having yourself a "and another thing" moment, edit your old post, don't keep replying to yourself, this is in breach of the rules about artificially inflating post count.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2018 23:58:00 GMT
And those people don't care about Doctor Who. They use fandom to pursure their dark agendas. Trust me, they'll let it burn with glee when the time comes and everything it stands for.
Just to finish up: you can and there are valid strong good arguments agasint having a female Doctor and that's great, I've seen some very persuasive and important arguments about why The Doctor should have remained a man (role model for boys) not everyone has to agree, but there are people using the argument to pursure some very dark agendas.
Accepted. Let's not give them any rope and just keep chatting about the fun and exciting adventures of an alien being travelling through time-and-space. Like completely ridiculous spin-off ideas...
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 10, 2018 0:24:48 GMT
there are valid strong good arguments against having a female Doctor and that's great, I've seen some very persuasive and important arguments about why The Doctor should have remained a man (role model for boys)
You know, that was my exact argument when I was in the against camp, that there weren't enough role models for boys that used intelligence and compassion rather than hitting or shooting, apart from maybe MacGuyver. And that still stands, but I reached the point where I realised that in today's age of accessible media we still have those in the 13 Doctors we already have (bit shaky on War but even him!), they're still all there to be that male hero, so the 13th Doctor being female doesn't erase that, and now we can hopefully see a female Doctor who can be a hero for boys in the way that all the others were also heroes for girls, or whatever gender/non gender you identify as. Nothing is lost. I'm actually baffled by those who think something is. As for comments that choosing to do this is pandering, how was having all the rest not that? Pandering to the idea that the hero has to be male? Anyway.
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Post by mrperson on Jun 10, 2018 2:27:04 GMT
Never wanted or needed. But here it is, sooo....
My own opinion is that there's no point in recasting existing leads as the opposite sex/gender. Just write in more strong leads of whatever category one thinks is underserved, and/or more strong characters. It's just as silly as doing Ghostbusters NOT with the best cast available, but with a cast of specific X gender/sex. But whatever, ship has sailed.
For my wife and I, the proposition basically came down to us wondering "umm...ok. But why?"
As I've said and as others have, this had absolutely nothing to do with the story-telling. It's part political statement, part attempt to grab viewers. I don't like it. I'll still give it a chance.
I can only hope that Chinball can ignore the fact that he specifically sought out a female and only a female replacement, writing instead for simply "the Doctor". I am rather worried about her being cast as a walking political statement. We'll see.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2018 2:49:47 GMT
The Doctor's been around for fifty-six years now and thirteen for the revival. I think honestly there's a real sense of how many stories can be told now with thirteen (fourteen incarnations if you count The Valeyard) using the existing template. Otherwise, you might as well have another long break and that wasn't happening, regardless of Chibnall. Chibnall's chosen the best road ahead and the decision to have a female Doctor was weighed in by larger factors then internet fan circles.
I don't think it was an inherently political choice, just to do something different. I'll bet you anything there were people weighing in at the BBC for a Teannet or Smith clone.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 10, 2018 3:24:42 GMT
And those people don't care about Doctor Who. They use fandom to pursure their dark agendas. Trust me, they'll let it burn with glee when the time comes and everything it stands for.
Just to finish up: you can and there are valid strong good arguments agasint having a female Doctor and that's great, I've seen some very persuasive and important arguments about why The Doctor should have remained a man (role model for boys) not everyone has to agree, but there are people using the argument to pursure some very dark agendas.
Agreed: I'm very wary of the "role model for boys" argument because if you can't find a role model amongst all the scads of male characters that dominate literature, TV, comics, movies, etc, would it hurt to be guided in your ethical choices by a woman? Also, it disregards the fact that, in this day and age, you can access the (almost) entire history of the Doctor and ignore the current incumbent - ffs, most of the people complaining about the gender of 1/14 of the actors who played the character can't bear the series in its current form, anyway!
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Post by omega on Jun 10, 2018 3:31:25 GMT
If there are good stories to be told, I don't have a problem with this. Change is as much a part of Doctor Who's biodata as the TARDIS, Daleks and the sonic screwdriver. Let's see how Jodie works out as the Doctor.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 10, 2018 3:38:37 GMT
I can only hope that Chinball can ignore the fact that he specifically sought out a female and only a female replacement, writing instead for simply "the Doctor". I am rather worried about her being cast as a walking political statement. We'll see.
With respect, Person, is that any different to producers and directors only really looking for a particular "type" when casting for a film? To me, when a producer says something like, "We had X in mind when we wrote this, but we settled for Y because they bring a similar presence to the role" or "We wanted a Z-type of actor, but Y ticked a lot of those boxes for us." Also, when JNT specifically pursued Colin Baker as a successor to Peter Davison in the role or, indeed, Davison himself, should he have - ethically - looked at other actors, just to be fair to them? i will say this: changing genders doesn't bother me as much as when the character changes their accent. I can get face, height (maybe) and (possibly) hair colour as a consequence of the genetic rewriting wrought by regeneration, but accent? And, really, it doesn't bother me that much.
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Post by omega on Jun 10, 2018 3:39:41 GMT
Did I want or need a Female Doctor? No but we've got one (and thankfully she's a better Actor than the 2 "Bookie's Favourites" are IMO) Now the broader issue "Fandom wanted it" or "Its time Who got with the times" When did it start well not through Fandom. There were legitimate calls for Female Equality in all areas, the Acting profession and Production Companies have responded by calling for roles to be as non-gender specific as possible, so the BBC went "Ah shape changing alien we can make the Doctor a Women no problem and be On Message in the Industry". Then the Backlash started and anyone who doesn't like it is seen as wrong and publicly called out as wrong. So will I watch it? (Yes) Will I enjoy it (Hopefully) Do I think Millennial Social Commentary in general is being put before the simple enjoyment of the programme? (Slowly but surely yes). Regards mark687 That new 'shape-changing alien' buzzword that seems to have since cropped up irks me. The Doctor is not a shape-shifter, Maya from Space:1999 and Odo from DS9 are shape-shifters. The regeneration process is a rejuvenation or renewal of old or damaged body cells. It is technically shape-changing, but only under certain conditions and with variable control over the finished product. While the Doctor's new form tends to be potluck from his perspective, other Time Lords like the Master and Romana have been able to influence their next appearance. In Destiny of the Daleks Romana changes shape several times before setting on Astra, who she'd just met. There are a couple of Expanded Universe reasons for Romana looking like Astra and the reason for her regeneration. The Master became John Simm because he wanted to be younger. Mels glibly remarked about focusing on a dress size (this is River, so best to take it with a large pinch of salt). One of the audios has a Time Lord become an anthropomorphic bird as part of a long term plan.
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Post by omega on Jun 10, 2018 3:47:01 GMT
I can only hope that Chinball can ignore the fact that he specifically sought out a female and only a female replacement, writing instead for simply "the Doctor". I am rather worried about her being cast as a walking political statement. We'll see.
With respect, Person, is that any different to producers and directors only really looking for a particular "type" when casting for a film? To me, when a producer says something like, "We had X in mind when we wrote this, but we settled for Y because they bring a similar presence to the role" or "We wanted a Z-type of actor, but Y ticked a lot of those boxes for us." Also, when JNT specifically pursued Colin Baker as a successor to Peter Davison in the role or, indeed, Davison himself, should he have - ethically - looked at other actors, just to be fair to them? i will say this: changing genders doesn't bother me as much as when the character changes their accent. I can get face, height (maybe) and (possibly) hair colour as a consequence of the genetic rewriting wrought by regeneration, but accent? And, really, it doesn't bother me that much. Lots of Big Finish writers say they wrote a role with a particular actor's voice in their head, and that person was cast independent of this. Most of the Doctor's regenerations have taken place in the TARDIS, and it's well established he's got a telepathic link to the old girl, treating her more like a person than a machine. The change from the First Doctor to the Second explicitly needed the TARDIS to facilitate it. Maybe when this happens the TARDIS throws something into mix that produces the new face and personality of the Doctor, a response to recent or significant circumstances. The Sixth Doctor could have been thinking of Jamie (the comics and audios show the Sixth Doctor and Jamie encountering each other again), and that's why he's Scottish. Trying to be more proactive in dealing with enemies, the scheming nature of the Seventh Doctor. In fact, maybe the Doctor does have a degree of influence over his regenerated form and new personality. The Third Doctor wanted to mooch around the universe, exactly the personality Tom brought to the role of the Fourth Doctor. At the end the Fourth Doctor was around younger people, maybe this influenced how young the Fifth Doctor looked. The Fifth Doctor was usually ignored, who could ignore the Sixth Doctor? The Seventh Doctor could be tactical and clinical, the Eighth Doctor just loved life and what he could see of the universe.
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Post by sherlock on Jun 10, 2018 8:43:33 GMT
Was there a need?
I actually think there was. In recent years the show has stagnated a bit in the public eye, I think it's fair to say. The new Doctor needed to be someone who viewers would sit up and take notice. Whatever your opinions on the decision, I think we can agree it made a lot of people take notice of Doctor Who who otherwise might not have cared all that much. It is a bold decision, that's the point. If they had just cast say Kris Marshall, since he was the most popular male actor rumour, I don't think it would have gotten the same reaction. It's clearly saying that the show is going down a completely new path, which might be enough to get it back at the forefront of public eye.
Did I want one?
Best way to sum up my opinion was I was never against a female Doctor, but wasn't ardently advocating for one. It's weird given this decision is so polarising but I just never had a strong opinion either way. It's down to the indivdual they cast and I think Jodie Whittaker is a good choice.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Jun 10, 2018 9:48:28 GMT
Not everyone who holds a contary opinion on the issues of a female Doctor is like that, but there are people who will latch onto that. We are living in scary times.
And those people don't care about Doctor Who. They use fandom to pursure their dark agendas. Trust me, they'll let it burn with glee when the time comes and everything it stands for.
Might be a good thing if Doctor Who crashed and burned. Because from the ashes a Phoenix may rise.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2018 10:17:03 GMT
And those people don't care about Doctor Who. They use fandom to pursure their dark agendas. Trust me, they'll let it burn with glee when the time comes and everything it stands for.
Might be a good thing if Doctor Who crashed and burned. Because from the ashes a Phoenix may rise. Cheers for that, Conchita, but I’d rather still have my favourite TV show on air.
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