|
|
Post by fantasticalice on Jun 8, 2018 7:11:38 GMT
Ok so I'm avoiding posting this thread on Gallifrey Base cause frankly we have some nasty people there and this is a philosophical thread.
Basically we have a woman Doctor Who and it's clear to me and many other people that we needed one. With me, I never wanted to ne the Doctor. Then I saw Jodie. And because of the magic of Doctor Who seeing a Female Doctor made me realise as a female I wanted to be the Paul McGann Doctor. Because although I didn't realise I wanted to be the Doctor until a woman did it... She's just the same as Paul and Pat and Tom etcetera. There is something so beautiful about knowing I can be the Doctor because of Jodie and actually modelling myself after one of her male incarnation.
I've started to notice a lot of ....interesting spinoffs out there. There are awesome standalone series like Benny and Lethbridge -Stewart that are unique in what they do. And there are others where I'm like Is this just supposed to be a woman Doctor Who? " Some of those are great, and some are clearly filling a Pre-Jodie gap.
Some are also filling a post Sarah Jane gap. It makes me super emotional to watch Sarah Jane but it's not written or scripted as Female Doctor Who but in many ways she is. I get excited in the same way about being Sarah Jane as I do about being the Doctor.
So I think in some ways Sarah Jane helped us realise a female Doctor would be amazing but left us with a huge insurmountable unfillable Sarah Jane gap.
And that's kind of where I'm at is what are people's thoughts on how long we have needed a female Doctor? We know Tom commented on it but when he was travelling with strong willed and independent Sarah Jane and Romana if we wanted a female Doctor it wasn't felt as strong back then because Sarah and Romana were such big and beloved personality I think in many ways girls like me didn't think we couldn't be the Doctor.... We thought we could be Romana or Sarah. Especially with their audio and telly spinoffs they sorta became the Doctor themselves.
Now I'm not saying we wouldn't still have Jodie if Sarah Jane was still on the air with Liz. But Sarah has always kind of been this magical character that says we can be the companion...and then become our own version of the Doctor.
And oh my goodness does that show have Pertwee Years stamped all over it. Now I won't mention any of the other dozen or so time travel etc stuff I've found related to Doctor Who because I don't want to be mean as it was/is a need.
And like I said there are wild stories like River Song which help with the void from no Sarah and not having Jodie stories yet....but there are just a lot of "Sorta like a female Doctor Who" stories from the last ten years which makes me curious about how long this has felt like an active need or want? Because it definitely is and it's caused lots of good and other stories that may suffer from being gap fillers but not quite separate from the Doctor who idea.
So kind of two questions. How long has there been a real need for a woman Doctor Who.... and what makes a story not a substitution but complementary to the show.
My two favourite female scifi heroes are River and Benny. Neither of them try to be Doctor Who and remarkably create very different stories and different worlds. Despite them both bein badass time travelling archaeologists who have likely slept with the Doctor.
Feel free to mention any story or series you think has a strong female center but makes itself it's own thing with the writing.
I have found one female Doctor Who. You'll laugh or maybe you will understand.It's Iris Wildthyme. It's not every story and she's super her own thing but every now and again she has a Doctor Who adventure. Because Iris, as drunk and loopy and silly as she is is still a hero. She's more of a Hartnell/Troughton stumble into stuff hero but when she does she stands up and does the right thing. She in so many ways is my Doctor Who. Because if I had a magic box or a magic bus I would enjoy life. I would drink butterscotch schnapps and coke all day long and enjoy the life travelling through the multiverse.
But I would happily walk up in my fabulous clothes and get them shredded and barely escape with my life if I could defeat some ecil or save people's lives. Admittedly Iris has always been wackadoodle doolally Doctor Who but she's always filled that need for Doctor Who as a crazy lady that we may not even see until Doctor 14. Just because I doubt Jodie will be bonkers Tom and Pat Doctor. But she could be and no matter what she is like I will love having stories with a female Doctor.
Because I think we have needed some sort of a female Doctor for a really long time, and especially after we lost Liz Sladen.
|
|
|
|
Post by thethirddoctor on Jun 8, 2018 8:53:46 GMT
I've never wanted or needed a female Doctor Who.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 9:29:50 GMT
I think it's a neccessary part of the show's evolution at this point. At this point, many cards have been dealt and THERE needs to be a change, a big shakeup. How many other stories are there to tell? A female Doctor is something different.
And if it was good enough for Sydney Newman.....
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 9:30:12 GMT
Also, I think we should also note where this question is pointed.
|
|
|
|
Post by aemiliapaula on Jun 8, 2018 9:50:47 GMT
I would have been fine if they kept having male actors playing the Doctor, but I think having a female Doctor is a great idea and found it exciting when it was announced.(have to say I was really hoping for Tilda Swinton, but oh well)
As I watched through the old series when I got up to Romana II I thought "she's as good as the Doctor!" (Romana I didn't get to do as much).
The other day I was watching one of Leela stories, and on the commentary Philip Hinchcliffe was explaining how Leela came to be. He was talking to a little girl who was a neighbor and asked her whom she identified with on the show. She said the Doctor, whivh surprised him since he thought she would say Sarah Jane. He thought "Let's have a strong female character that has these heroic qualities" ( not that 70's Sarah didn't but Leela takes it to another level.)
So you can look up / want to be like a character of a different gender, but there's something different and special if that person is like yourself in some way. I hope the new Doctor will be one girls and boys both like, but it's very exciting for girls to have a woman Doctor now.
As for Iris, I only discovered her by accident. I found an old podcast and thought it was about the range, but it turned out to be an actual story. I explained my Halloween outfit by saying "Well you know Doctor Who? She's kind of a wacky older lady Doctor Who character". She cracks me up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 10:05:08 GMT
I don't mind one way or the other nowadays. Being honest, the answer two/three years ago would probably have been "not really" because of the programme's tone at the time. I don't think the jokiness inherent to that era would have been a good starting point for such an upheaval personally. Ask me if it were ten years earlier and I'd still say "probably not", likely because NuWho under RTD was still tenuously laying down its roots (on a wing and a prayer). The 45-minute time slot and heavy return focus to Earth was radical enough as it was at the time. If they're going to do it, ten(ish) years in feels about right. Now, circa 2018... *shrug* Yep, I'm ambivalent. Write an interesting character and a good story (hell, I enjoy a fair hour chunk of The Twin Dilemma so maybe not even that) and you'll win me over, just like any other Doctor. That said though, there is one audio currently on sale at Big Finish, which I'll leave vague for spoilers that made me think "Gosh, Nicola Bryant would make a good Doctor." Joanna Lumley on her World Travel programmes also got me thinking she'd be rather nice in the part just playing herself (as Doctors often end up doing). Japan, Nile, India and Land of the Northern Lights are the ones I'm thinking of, all definitely worth seeing. So kind of two questions. How long has there been a real need for a woman Doctor Who.... Genuinely can't answer that. I'm sure someone else can. what makes a story not a substitution but complementary to the show. Hmmm...  Broadly, I think it's when a character begins to grow beyond the bounds of "Female [Insert Character as Applicable]" and become their own thing. Starting off with non- Who example: Modesty Blaise, who has a much more interesting background and character beyond "female Bond". She started out a refugee, now runs one of the largest criminal outfits in the world and has a genuine friendship (and nothing else) with a heavy called Willie Garvin. He's her right arm. Another is Cathy Gale from The Avengers, originally developed as a replacement for Dr Martin King when he left the show. A believer of the occult and (somewhat paradoxically) a scientist, working to relieve suffering in Africa. She respects Steed, but doesn't tolerate any of his jibes one bit and is treated as his equal. She kicked off the Avengers girl archetype that'd end up popping up most prominently in Enemy of the World in terms of Who. Within Who, Romana had her own characteristics, distinct from the Doctor that made her compelling in her own right. She wasn't chained to being "the understudy Doctor". She had a great degree of knowledge which the Doctor lacked, which balanced out her lack of wisdom which the Doctor possessed (something that comes to the fore in City of Death among other places). It made for a nice dynamic. She had room to grow, but her own strengths as well. Benny fulfilled a similar function in the dynamic of the NAs, essentially being the team's wisecracking heart. She can booze, snark and do everything the Doctor would and wouldn't, and we still love her cause she's Benny. They're essentially characters that say: "We don't have to change who we are to do what the Doctor does. We can still be 100% ourselves." Leela can be the Eliza Dolittle huntress in skins and rally Pluto's workers to revolution. Liz Shaw can have doubts about her work at UNIT and save the Doctor's life from the Nestenes. Barbara Wright can worry about never returning home and plow through a barricade of Daleks in a two-century-old van. Pow! The Doctor's got options. |
|
|
|
Post by thethirddoctor on Jun 8, 2018 10:23:36 GMT
I think it's a neccessary part of the show's evolution at this point. At this point, many cards have been dealt and THERE needs to be a change, a big shakeup. How many other stories are there to tell? A female Doctor is something different. And if it was good enough for Sydney Newman..... Sydney Newman didn't cast a woman. |
|
|
|
Post by rran on Jun 8, 2018 10:59:27 GMT
To be honest, I don't really want a gender change and I don't feel the need for a female Doctor. But I'd like to wait and watch before I pass any judgement about her. She might surprise me!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 11:13:37 GMT
Well, need and want are two different things. I don't think most Doctor Who fans ever felt that they needed a female Doctor. It was something that has been desired by some fans for a long while and in 2017 even though I never wanted a female Doctor it was obvious that we would get one at some stage. Unlike when I was younger, we now have had some very strong female characters in Doctor Who; Rose, Martha, River Song, Madam Vastra, Clara, Missy, Bill etc.. (Companions and characters that aren't going to trip and twist an ankle and be the poor little damsel in distress or scream at anything hairy and scary!) So strong female roles in Doctor Who are not a rarity these days. I can only speak for myself but I don't feel there was an actual need for a female Doctor, but Doctor Who is a show about change and change was inevitable.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 11:52:19 GMT
Needed or wanted a female Doctor? Difficult one to answer. But for decades female fans of genre tv/film or fiction in general have had to, by default, primarily identify with a male hero. The occasions where men have identified with a female lead in the male dominated genre of tv & film etc are few & far between. The only big example that springs to mind is Ripley in Aliens where from the start she is the lead. So it was inevitable that the male dominated world of Dr Who would need to change.
All I can say as a personal response is that when Jodie was revealed my first words, out loud even though I was watching it on my own, were "At last!"
|
|
|
|
Post by liam on Jun 8, 2018 12:23:13 GMT
I never wanted a female Doctor. I'd have been more than happy for The Doctor to remain male for the rest of eternity living in blissful ignorance..... then the trailer revealing Jodie happened. I can now honestly say that I haven't been this excited for a season of Doctor Who or an upcoming Doctor in a long time. I'm really looking forward to seeing what she will bring to the role. And as for the nay-sayers, in the words of Colin Baker 'She is The Doctor, whether you like it or not!'.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Matt on Jun 8, 2018 12:42:10 GMT
I neither needed or wanted a female Doctor. I am not against it and i am still planning on watching but i didn't sit at the end of every regeneration going "please be a woman, please be a woman" if it had been done years ago, like when Tommy B jokingly suggested it, then it would have been really daring. Coming when it does it now has a hint of pandering to it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 13:20:36 GMT
I neither needed or wanted a female Doctor. I am not against it and i am still planning on watching but i didn't sit at the end of every regeneration going "please be a woman, please be a woman" if it had been done years ago, like when Tommy B jokingly suggested it, then it would have been really daring. Coming when it does it now has a hint of pandering to it. I have never needed or wanted a female Doctor. It's never really occured to me to want or need a male Doctor either. I just want every Doctor to be enjoyable to watch, whether they be grouchy, funny, silly, mischievous etc. To limit the reasons I like 'the Doctor' to a single sex is, well, limiting. It shouldn't matter whether it is a man or a woman. But it does to certain people. And I am one of those people. I'm coming round to the idea, and whatever else, I wish the show all the best. But whilst I like many of the changes CC has made - the logo, the change of musicians, the change in the filmed 'look' of the show - I can't summon up any great interest in the new series. I'll watch it. If its good, I'llwatch it some more. |
|
lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,813 
|
Post by lidar2 on Jun 8, 2018 13:29:39 GMT
I neither needed or wanted a female Doctor. I am not against it and i am still planning on watching but i didn't sit at the end of every regeneration going "please be a woman, please be a woman" if it had been done years ago, like when Tommy B jokingly suggested it, then it would have been really daring. Coming when it does it now has a hint of pandering to it. This pretty much sums up my view. I didn't NOT want a female Doctor, but I wasn't losing any sleep over the lack of one either. Lalla Ward's performance as the Doctor in The Horns of Nimon had convinced me a long time ago that a female Doctor could and would work well. I am looking forward to series 11.
I think the right time for a female Doctor would have been when Matt left, before Missy had blazed a trail. This time around it just felt like the BBC were taking the easy way out and following the line of least resistance.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 13:41:54 GMT
I neither needed or wanted a female Doctor. I am not against it and i am still planning on watching but i didn't sit at the end of every regeneration going "please be a woman, please be a woman" if it had been done years ago, like when Tommy B jokingly suggested it, then it would have been really daring. Coming when it does it now has a hint of pandering to it. This pretty much sums up my view. I didn't NOT want a female Doctor, but I wasn't losing any sleep over the lack of one either. Lalla Ward's performance as the Doctor in The Horns of Nimon had convinced me a long time ago that a female Doctor could and would work well. I am looking forward to series 11.
I think the right time for a female Doctor would have been when Matt left, before Missy had blazed a trail. This time around it just felt like the BBC were taking the easy way out and following the line of least resistance.
Can't agree with you on that. I think there still needed to be building blocks and Missy was it.
|
|
|
|
Post by coffeeaddict on Jun 8, 2018 15:22:36 GMT
I think it's a neccessary part of the show's evolution at this point. At this point, many cards have been dealt and THERE needs to be a change, a big shakeup. How many other stories are there to tell? A female Doctor is something different. And if it was good enough for Sydney Newman..... Sydney Newman didn't cast a woman. But in the 80's he did suggest to the BBC that they should consider casting a woman.. |
|
|
|
Post by thethirddoctor on Jun 8, 2018 15:38:18 GMT
Sydney Newman didn't cast a woman. But in the 80's he did suggest to the BBC that they should consider casting a woman.. Thankfully, they didn't listen to him. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 16:23:03 GMT
Sydney Newman didn't cast a woman. But in the 80's he did suggest to the BBC that they should consider casting a woman.. Yes. & I think it might have saved the show! |
|
|
|
Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 8, 2018 16:24:57 GMT
I don't know that I needed a female Doctor and having spoken with several female Doctor Who fans I don't think they thought they needed one either up until the point Jodie was announced. It is absurd to me that we have waited 50+ years to finally have a female Doctor because the Doctor is still the Doctor. All I want are good Doctor Who stories and if we can have a new generation of fans looking up to a character that looks like them and one who represents reason, morality, intelligence and always trying to do the right thing, well, then so much the better.
|
|
|
|
Post by muckypup on Jun 8, 2018 16:33:37 GMT
Never ever felt need to gender change.......and the abhorrent way it’s been handled I still wish we never had.
She is defiantly the wrong person for the job, it gets worse with with every tiny reveal, and a secretly hoping that it all fails spectacularly
For me it’s finished me going forward.......I have not intention to watch it onwards......cancellation would have been a easier pill to swallow.
But the way some people have reacted to my dislike of the gender change has made me realise that fandom is no safe haven any longer or respecter of viewpoints.
have got rid of 90% of my doctor who stuff from cookie jars to action figures......I am embarrassed to have been such a fanboy.
Its opened me up to all the jokes and jibes that I suffered when I came out.
Old wounds never really heal and the thing that I found comfort in last time is now the source of the hurt.
I really do hope that all the casual viewer and equality band wagon jumpers that campaigned for this stick by it and make it the success........I remember listening to a certain celeb who thought is was brilliant, then when asked why she wanted the change said girl power....but asked if she watched it ....no, will you watch it now......no.
But I still love big finish.
|
|
Broadly, I think it's when a character begins to grow beyond the bounds of "Female [Insert Character as Applicable]" and become their own thing.
