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Post by seeley on Nov 30, 2015 20:07:46 GMT
But later New Adventures had even ruder language. Worse than "Destiny of the Daleks"; worse than Ian Marter's novelisation of "The Enemy of the World"; worse, even, than "The Ghosts of N-Space". And not just the several incidents where, as you say, the Doctor mutters something rude in a language nobody understands under his breath. Oh yes. In fact, Transit, just two books later, is apparently the all time high for swearing in Doctor Who. But as far as I know, the NAs never had the Doctor say anything worse than "damn." I wasn't comparing the NA's to the New Series, I was just thinking about a scene that I found funny and that I realized couldn't work on audio.
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Post by mrperson on Dec 1, 2015 0:00:54 GMT
We've started to hear the Doctor swear in English in Moffat's era - and remember the remark of Terry Pratchett, that Not just Mofffat's era. I recall a rather odd "what the hell was that?" in Rise of the Cybermen. On a similar subject, one of the many ways in which the Nightshade adaptation will inevitably be different from the book will be the omission of the rather amusing bit with the Doctor swearing in Old High Gallifreyan. To be clear, I actually don't consider "Oh God, Oh My God" to be a swear...it just seemed really out of place for the Doctor to be saying it, seeing as he has faced "old gods", been to multiple universes as well as the void, but never found anythinsuggesting a Human Biblical omnipresent/omnipotent deity. Plenty of characters have let loose that exclamation, but never the Doctor. Felt like an odd thing to say to me. Perhaps I'll have to chalk it up to spending so much time around humans, who do say such things. (I have no problem with the exclamation itself, either. Or with swears in general. In fact, they can be used to great effect. In some audio that I forget, someone (Cuthbert?) uttered a perfectly timed "you dumbass!" that had me chuckling. Done poorly, it can be crude. Done well, a gem)
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Post by Ela on Dec 1, 2015 4:11:47 GMT
Well, I enjoyed that. Even though I didn't always get what was going on. The part toward the end with Clara and the very end really got me. Capaldi was great.
I'm glad I really avoided spoilers (I saw something about Gallifrey but avoided reading it.)
I still don't understand what the bird thing was about. And I don't think I understood he was in the confession dial till the end.
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Post by david on Dec 1, 2015 9:00:54 GMT
I still don't understand what the bird thing was about. And I don't think I understood he was in the confession dial till the end. A reminder to himself that, like the bird that comes back to sharpen its beak on the same mountaintop, he had to come back and take one more punch against this wall, bit by bit over billions of years,even though like the bird and the mountain it doesn't seem to make a difference eventually....well, you saw what happened
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Post by acousticwolf on Dec 1, 2015 9:02:50 GMT
What Ela said. Altho' it was my wife who had a few tears over Clara - me? My tears are for when Eleven saw Amy again at the end (or said Goodbye to River .... again). Every.Single.Time.
Cheers
Tony
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Post by acousticwolf on Dec 1, 2015 9:07:27 GMT
I still don't understand what the bird thing was about. And I don't think I understood he was in the confession dial till the end. A reminder to himself that, like the bird that comes back to sharpen its beak on the same mountaintop, he had to come back and take one more punch against this wall, bit by bit over billions of years,even though like the bird and the mountain it doesn't seem to make a difference eventually....well, you saw what happened That confused me as well - I didn't get why some things reset and some didn't (like the wall, the skulls), but overall I did enjoy it ... I'm just going to have to watch it again this week before Saturday Cheers Tony
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 1, 2015 12:11:50 GMT
Also was that city the Citadel or another one? because the Citadel when its appeared before has been surrounded by mountains, not Desert. well we've seen tow Gallifreyan cities so far, the Capitol and Arcadia, and it isn't always clear which we're seeing. This one has a strange aet of buildings on top of the glass bubble that I don't recall seeing before, so it could be a third city. Thats true, because if its the War Council chambers. They could have been in another city
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Post by Ela on Dec 1, 2015 14:26:21 GMT
What Ela said. Altho' it was my wife who had a few tears over Clara - me? My tears are for when Eleven saw Amy again at the end (or said Goodbye to River .... again). Every.Single.Time. Cheers Tony I had some tears over the scene with Clara and the part right before where he loses it because she's gone and she's not coming back. After all that, the ending was like a punch in the gut. It really got to me. So glad I was able to avoid most of the spoilers, so that the emotional impact of that wasn't ruined for me.
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Post by randomjc on Dec 1, 2015 14:27:40 GMT
Yay...finally caught up. Quick sum up, I enjoyed most this season. And this episode was very nice, if a bit...draggy at a few parts.
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Post by nottenst on Dec 1, 2015 15:40:01 GMT
So, if the Time Lords were organizing this whole teleport scheme with Mayor Me -- how did they do it? Could they really organize and communicate from their current location? Did they use another crack in the universe? I hope this is all explained in the final episode.
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Post by mrperson on Dec 1, 2015 19:43:54 GMT
1. The Doctor saying specifically "God. Oh my God." This has always been a secular show and he's always been rigidly secular a character. Just didn't seem right that that would be his line when scared. We've started to hear the Doctor swear in English in Moffat's era - and remember the remark of Terry Pratchett, that (Mind you, we're not back to Max Vilmio-level of language. Yet. Depends what timeslot the show gets next year!) "Oh.... SMEG!" But on another note, I was kind of annoyed with just how much fear Capaldi managed to express. It may speak to his capabilities as an actor, but it's just off for The Doctor. He's often faced death with dignity and/or while being quite indignant about the situation. But whether he was putting his head on the chopping block or taking position in a dispersal chamber, he didn't gibber on about how scared he was. But both Smith and Capaldi have been required to announce just how very scared they are. (There have been remarks about "yes, of course I'm afraid," etc, but those are of a different nature). Not only is it a terrible narration technique.... it's not The Doctor. The character is supposed to be made of sterner stuff than steel.
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Post by Ela on Dec 1, 2015 21:24:52 GMT
I don't have a problem with the Doctor showing fear and I disagree that it's out of character.
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 1, 2015 21:40:21 GMT
We've started to hear the Doctor swear in English in Moffat's era - and remember the remark of Terry Pratchett, that (Mind you, we're not back to Max Vilmio-level of language. Yet. Depends what timeslot the show gets next year!) "Oh.... SMEG!" But on another note, I was kind of annoyed with just how much fear Capaldi managed to express. It may speak to his capabilities as an actor, but it's just off for The Doctor. He's often faced death with dignity and/or while being quite indignant about the situation. But whether he was putting his head on the chopping block or taking position in a dispersal chamber, he didn't gibber on about how scared he was. But both Smith and Capaldi have been required to announce just how very scared they are. (There have been remarks about "yes, of course I'm afraid," etc, but those are of a different nature). Not only is it a terrible narration technique.... it's not The Doctor. The character is supposed to be made of sterner stuff than steel. Usually the Doctor's putting on a show for someone though. He acts like he's not afraid either to make his companion feel better, or to make the villain doubt themselves. This time though, he's all alone. There is nobody around to impress, so no reason not to show his fear. And, he still was very brave. As he said at the end, it would have been easy to lose. All he would have to do would be to confess his secret to the Veil, and then he would be allowed to go. Instead, his will was strong enough to extend his torture by billions of years. By the Doctor's own definition "Courage isn't just a matter of not being frightened, you know. It's being afraid and doing what you have to do anyway." His actions in this episode may be the bravest thing the Doctor has ever done.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2015 2:47:06 GMT
But later New Adventures had even ruder language. Worse than "Destiny of the Daleks"; worse than Ian Marter's novelisation of "The Enemy of the World"; worse, even, than "The Ghosts of N-Space". And not just the several incidents where, as you say, the Doctor mutters something rude in a language nobody understands under his breath. Oh yes. In fact, Transit, just two books later, is apparently the all time high for swearing in Doctor Who. But as far as I know, the NAs never had the Doctor say anything worse than "damn." I wasn't comparing the NA's to the New Series, I was just thinking about a scene that I found funny and that I realized couldn't work on audio. Transit gets a lot of flak for its language despite being a superb novel, yet funnily enough in spite of all the swearing, the Doctor himself never does it once. It's part of what makes him truly stand out from the environment of twenty-second century Earth, he's truly alien on that planet because he doesn't engage in any of their social obbligati. All in all, I think the cursing in Nu Who is symptomatic of how the programme was relaunched. The Ninth Doctor and his surrounds were much more working class and closer to the ground than his aristocratic, high society predecessors. We're unlikely to see the Doctor quote the Divine Comedy, joke about The Castle of Otranto, speak of Chinese cultural practices or question his own religious views because unlike his predecessors he's not written as an academic from a civilisation of academics. It's a side effect of the times we live in, I think. Oh, actually... On a totally different point and now that I come to think of it, the Doctor's confession that he left Gallifrey because he was scared... Totally fits in with his escape seen in Lungbarrow... Just saying...
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Post by mrperson on Dec 2, 2015 2:50:04 GMT
Time for another Mea Culpa. I watched it again. While the logical flaws I have complained about here and moreso in GallifreyBase persist, they are nonetheless susceptible to explanation and/or inference from other events in the episode to come. I think that in part, I personally didn't like Clara and that infected part of what I didn't like in the episode. But anyway.... I upgrade my opinion from 7ish/10 to 10/10, at the least. (Dial goes to 11?) One of the things I missed: the moment he realizes what's happening is ~15m until the end (I don't feel like calculating minutes played. Amazon lists minutes till end). He doesn't just say he knows what's going on......what he says is "You don't understand, Clara. I can remember it all, every time." Every time he reaches that point, he doesn't simply figure out what's going on....he remembers every time he figured it out, which necessarily includes the memory of each pass up until that point through the loop. This is not simply a tale of him sacrificing every next version of himself until the end. Every time he takes actions between the last entrance into the memory palace, punching the wall, and crawling back, he is acting with the full memory of every last second he spent in that dial. Whether or not it is an "illusion" like a matrix or real but dimensionally transcendental (in size, etc) is irrelevant. Therefore, when he finally escapes, he escapes with the full weight of over two billion years of that torture. This is inconceivable and more. Either way, this Comment on trailer for the next: In the trailer, does not the general Timelord say "regeneration in progress"? Might that not be absolutely necessary to turn him sane again? What could two billion years of torture do to a living creature? A hundred years doesn't yet fit in my mind. A thousand, a hundred thousand, ten million.... it becomes meaningless.
Two billion? Per Whoniverse history, only "Boe" and the old Gods can walk in such deeps of time. A final aside that has to do with views of mine related to religion, eternity, and morally based wishes of indignant retribution: I have often attempted to ponder the concept of infinite sets, such as an eternity in time.
Not that it is an exclusive qualification, but, as a Jewish person I have often come to the following conclusion: how dare any one mortal purport to condemn another to an eternity in Hell, whether it be fire or ice or fear or any punishment, whether it be Hitler or Stalin or anyone.
If 1,000 is beyond your ability to comprehend....if 1,000,000,000,000,000 is beyond your ability to comprehend...then so too is enough zeroes to crash this server.
Those zeroes are zero as against infinity. All things are zero against infinity. No matter how evil any creature might be, none who cannot comprehend eternity have any place condemning anyone else to an eternity of anything.
A little strongly worded, but I suppose the episode moved me a bit.
That's unusual
11/10.
Moral of the story to me: Don't criticize any more episodes until you've watched them, read others' criticism, and then watched them a second time. Unless it's Kill The Moon bad. /duck incoming rotten tomato
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Dec 2, 2015 10:26:36 GMT
I reckon, that as the Blogtor cast list includes "General" and "Female General", it's the General getting regenerated, and he comes out of up it female.
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Post by hackmodford on Dec 2, 2015 21:42:15 GMT
He doesn't just say he knows what's going on......what he says is "You don't understand, Clara. I can remember it all, every time." If that is true, he must be insane. No wonder he's doing what looks like weird stuff in the next episode.
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 2, 2015 22:03:18 GMT
He doesn't just say he knows what's going on......what he says is "You don't understand, Clara. I can remember it all, every time." If that is true, he must be insane. No wonder he's doing what looks like weird stuff in the next episode. He was already insane. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being similar to Roman Rory, where the memories are all there, but he has to make a conscious effort to access them.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Dec 4, 2015 10:13:42 GMT
He doesn't just say he knows what's going on......what he says is "You don't understand, Clara. I can remember it all, every time." If that is true, he must be insane. No wonder he's doing what looks like weird stuff in the next episode. There's a line from Professor "not the Doctor, honest" Paradox in the Ben-10 series about how he spat so long lost in the vortex he went insane, and eventually went sane. 2billion years is long enough for him to go sane.
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Post by hackmodford on Dec 4, 2015 15:50:44 GMT
... He [spent] so long lost in the vortex he went insane, and eventually went sane. 2billion years is long enough for him to go sane. Gotta love Dr. Who logic
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