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Post by ollychops on Jun 22, 2024 8:41:50 GMT
Easily Russell’s weakest finale to date. I feel like I’d like it more if I actually cared about Ruby as a character and the Fifteen/Ruby dynamic but given that we’ve had surface level stuff for the last 7 weeks and pretty much no development, it didn’t do much for me at all.
Also so much handwaving and things left unexplained - what was the deal with the snow? - meant that it ended up being a pretty disappointing wrap-up to the arc.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2024 8:45:46 GMT
I'm not sure the Ncuti/Millie dynamic, to respond to Mark, was that big a selling point. They spent a fair bit of time apart. More that they made the most of the time together but really for all the talk of Ncuti being a Hollywood star and the show going to struggle to get much more than the two seasons from him.....Millie has blown him off the screen. She's a revelation. Stunning actor.
As for Mel, yeah, I'm with the other poster - Bonnie is fine but...what's her character? We've seen none of her 80s self which is fine - people hated it and she's not that age any more...but she's very subdued, hardly "Mad Auntie Mel" as Tennant called her. The way Chibnall - and I can't believe I'm saying this - wrote was much better. He made sure that in bringing back Ace and Tegan...he wrote for Ace and Tegan. Mel could be a new character played by a different person and - her Doctor association aside - nothing would stand out.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 22, 2024 8:46:32 GMT
This one left me feeling kind of cold and just kind of whelmed overall. It's not bad, but it's definitely a bit of a letdown from The Legend of Ruby Sunday, at least for me on first watching. I'm not surprised - it's absolutely classic RTD how it's handled here through and through - but yeahh it's still a little frustrating how very hamfisted and messy the climax and resolution was. Not sure if I'd say it's Last of the Time Lords messy, but it's definitely the most immediate rival of that one that RTD has done so far. More importantly though, this episode cemented the glaringly obvious fact that 8 episodes is simply not enough time to get me invested in these characters and the show knows it. We needed waaaay more episodes like Rogue where the Doctor and Ruby just get to be friends having fun traveling together and facing monsters of the week. Episodes where we could have actually seen some of those other versions of Susan instead of just having them sprung on us in cameos in these last two episodes. Ruby leaving at the end of the episode also would have had so much more weight if I felt like I got to spend a significant amount of time with her, which frankly I did not. It's not a bad farewell, but it feels hollow in a way that it wouldn't if this was after 22 episodes for instance of adventures. Like I said though it's not all bad. The scene with Ruby's mom was really really touching - I cried a little when they finally met. I'm glad they went this route with that storyline instead of the mystery box pleasing nonsense direction some OTHER big science fiction franchises went in (*glares at The Rise of Skywalker*). Ncuti also just completely carried this episode once again, just what an incredible choice he's been to play the Doctor! And of course I'm always happy to see my girl Mel getting some much deserved screentime once again! Getting to see her recognize her Doctor's coat in the TARDIS was also really emotional for me .If your in the UK or VPN able watch the Video Commentary in I-Player/Whoiverse In fact no need to x.com/MichaelO2k/status/1804409910475493399Regards mark687
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Post by sherlock on Jun 22, 2024 8:48:21 GMT
Well that was an RTD finale all right. He’s always been “Emotions > Plot” but this is the logical endpoint of that, where the series-long plot textually only matters because characters have invested their emotions into it and has no real significance beyond that. The extended epilogue landed for me because of how the scenes were performed and written, and possibly because I hadn’t spent weeks intensively theorising that Ruby’s mother was Susan/Jenny/an Osirian/another goddess etc, but I don’t blame people for feeling dejected at that twist. The series was offering a breadcrumb trail and then decided the loaf didn’t actually matter. The story gets very handwavey, which isn’t unusual for RTD but this is definitely a new high of that. The TARDIS responds to whistles, Sutekh despite being able to control his abilities is apparently unable to stop himself dealing death to death, and UNIT HQ can now DNA search Ruby (which they probably should have led with last week instead of time travel). All in all I enjoyed it but it’s not a home run by any means. Also this was the first, and probably last, midnight drop I watched on. Not really worth it tbh.I can only imagine the dejection of seeing it in the cinema. Midnight show and all you get is a 20 second intro from Millie saying "We love it, hope you do too, bye". Spending hard earned, headed out at midnight and getting THAT? I think I may have flung my wheelchair at the screen and took my chances my legs were in a good mood! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/ZBDvOFPmQgNwxFXLpuoD.gif) I was weighing up going to cinema proper and glad I couldn’t in the end as it sounds like reception at them was mixed.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jun 22, 2024 8:54:03 GMT
Ok. Just watched it with the family.. Junior and myself got all excited seeing 4 and Sarah Jane Smith.. We suspect Susan may be Clara, she called the Doctor a "clever boy".. So my main question after last weeks ep was how long was Sutekh hiding in the TARDIS. Question answered! Did anyone else notice the brief hand holding moment between Kate and the soldier ? A lot of member berries in this episode.
EDIT :
LULZ
![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/ZBDvOFPmQgNwxFXLpuoD.gif)
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Post by mark687 on Jun 22, 2024 8:59:16 GMT
I'm not sure the Ncuti/Millie dynamic, to respond to Mark, was that big a selling point. They spent a fair bit of time apart. More that they made the most of the time together but really for all the talk of Ncuti being a Hollywood star and the show going to struggle to get much more than the two seasons from him.....Millie has blown him off the screen. She's a revelation. Stunning actor. As for Mel, yeah, I'm with the other poster - Bonnie is fine but...what's her character? We've seen none of her 80s self which is fine - people hated it and she's not that age any more...but she's very subdued, hardly "Mad Auntie Mel" as Tennant called her. The way Chibnall - and I can't believe I'm saying this - wrote was much better. He made sure that in bringing back Ace and Tegan...he wrote for Ace and Tegan. Mel could be a new character played by a different person and - her Doctor association aside - nothing would stand out. Agreed Separately they work just as well. I can also say had I been at a Cinema Screening I may have had a similar urge myself Regards mark687
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Post by timleschild on Jun 22, 2024 9:00:48 GMT
Absolute crap!
I will be surprised if we get a 3rd season.
Well done RTD you brought the show back now you have destroyed it!
The circle is complete.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 22, 2024 9:03:20 GMT
Ok. Just watched it with the family.. Junior and myself got all excited seeing 4 and Sarah Jane Smith.. We suspect Susan may be Clara, she called the Doctor a "clever boy".. So my main question after last weeks ep was how long was Sutekh hiding in the TARDIS. Question answered! Did anyone else notice the brief hand holding moment between Kate and the soldier ? A lot of member berries in this episode.
EDIT :
LULZ
![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/ZBDvOFPmQgNwxFXLpuoD.gif) With the greatest respect get Fugitive and Call Me Master out 1st Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2024 9:13:12 GMT
Also odd...Russell said - which many thought was a bit of a diss to Moffat at the time - you can't end a series. You ALWAYS need to set something for the audience to come back. So Donna appears in her wedding dress, the Titanic crashes, The Master is back in the Next Time trailer at eps end. "You need to give them a reason not to jump off the train".
He seems to have ignored his own advice here. Mrs Flood doesn't count - she did the same thing she did at Christmas.
So there's NOT always a twist at the end...
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jun 22, 2024 9:17:55 GMT
Well, it started badly with "we interupt this podcast" (seriously, how does Russell not understand what a podcast is?!) and went downhill from there. The tiresome Power of Love plus a ripoff of the Avengers, combined with a bootstrap paradox (Sutekh only finds her interesting because people were going to react to him finding her interesting)... I can only assume that RTD had no idea how to draw this to a conclusion. On the plus side, Big Finish have a whole new range of Sutekh audios to make. Sutekh and Kamelion on Frontios! And "The Exciting Adventures of Sutekh Stuck In A Bog", chronicling his time between "Blood Heat" and "Happy Endings". On the additional negative side, we didn't get the rumoured Pertwee-era content, or if we did, I didn't spot it.
One BIG question, though {Spoiler} If killing death produces life, how did RTD resist resurrecting the Time Lords. Maybe he didn't?
(Come to think of it, if the Doctor insists that he is the last of the Time Lords but still reckons Susan is alive... presumably she's not one?)
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Post by mark687 on Jun 22, 2024 9:19:31 GMT
Also odd...Russell said - which many thought was a bit of a diss to Moffat at the time - you can't end a series. You ALWAYS need to set something for the audience to come back. So Donna appears in her wedding dress, the Titanic crashes, The Master is back in the Next Time trailer at eps end. "You need to give them a reason not to jump off the train". He seems to have ignored his own advice here. Mrs Flood doesn't count - she did the same thing she did at Christmas. So there's NOT always a twist at the end... Another odd thing considering you've got early I-Player release the Video Commentary confirms there be something after the End Credits on the "Transmission" version Tonight Regards mark687
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Post by shallacatop on Jun 22, 2024 9:35:07 GMT
I can only imagine the dejection of seeing it in the cinema. Midnight show and all you get is a 20 second intro from Millie saying "We love it, hope you do too, bye". Spending hard earned, headed out at midnight and getting THAT? I think I may have flung my wheelchair at the screen and took my chances my legs were in a good mood! ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/ZBDvOFPmQgNwxFXLpuoD.gif) I was weighing up going to cinema proper and glad I couldn’t in the end as it sounds like reception at them was mixed. Anecdotal, of course, but I wish I hadn’t bothered either. It was just so muted, completely lacked the community feeling of The Day of the Doctor or Deep Breath. I think it’s a mixture of different elements that just don’t make for a good recipe. Half of the screening we’d already seen, the finale itself wasn’t the greatest episode and certainly didn’t have those “fan elements” you’d usually have to justify cinema screenings. I sensed the audience getting increasingly irate as they’d cocked up the showing. It was meant to start at 23:00 prompt, no adverts. The idea being that they’d have a 15 minute interval, taking you to 00:00 and then a short intro from Millie, taking you to 00:01 by which time the episode was “unlocked” for showing. Instead they stuck adverts on at 23:00 so Empire of Death only started about 00:20; we could’ve seen a third of it on iPlayer by that time! And unlike the other Who cinema showings, they didn’t go to any effort to make it nice with extra content; the Millie intro in hindsight seemed like they’d dragged her out as damage control!
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Post by timleschild on Jun 22, 2024 9:38:18 GMT
EDIT :
LULZ
![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/ZBDvOFPmQgNwxFXLpuoD.gif) Why BF? What characterisation has been done for Mrs. Flood in this woeful season that indicates she needs an audio series?We know nothing about her. & no hashtags again BF!
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jun 22, 2024 9:45:49 GMT
EDIT :
LULZ
![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/ZBDvOFPmQgNwxFXLpuoD.gif) Why BF? What characterisation has been done for Mrs. Flood in this woeful season that indicates she needs an audio series? It's a joke. It's very obviously a joke.
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Post by timleschild on Jun 22, 2024 9:50:28 GMT
Why BF? What characterisation has been done for Mrs. Flood in this woeful season that indicates she needs an audio series? It's a joke. It's very obviously a joke. Hard to tell with BF, & if its trying to generate more traffic to their stuff again the lack of hashtags. BF really don't know how to use social media in any meaningful business sense.
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Post by shallacatop on Jun 22, 2024 9:50:50 GMT
The other thing I thought was odd, and again it all unfolds in that middle act that’s a bit aimless, is how reductive it all is of Pyramids of Mars. We’ve got a load of emphasis on the original story, to the point where they show a few clips in Empire of Death and extended that to its own Tales of the TARDIS. Yet we have Sutekh obsessed with Ruby’s mum for some reason, despite being very clear in Pyramids that human beings are beneath him. The Doctor makes a song and dance about how he’s been forced to kill Sutekh, despite quite flippantly doing that previously; this is more than just incarnations having different perspectives. And then we have this omnipotent God taken for a run through the vortex so easily that he can’t cut the rope with his great big talons, yet the TARDIS door can? It works so well in Pyramids because the Doctor flippantly banishes Sutekh as soon as he arrives, knowing what destruction he can unfold.
It’s an odd take.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jun 22, 2024 9:54:07 GMT
how reductive it all is of Pyramids of Mars.
Particularly that it actually reverses the backstory and makes the Osirans ripoff Egyptian culture, rather than vice-versa (previously a joke in Futurama). Presumably this is because attributing alien influences to cultures is a bit iffy, but perhaps they ought not to use Sutekh if there's anything about him that makes people uncomfortable
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Post by number13 on Jun 22, 2024 9:54:34 GMT
On hearing about the surprise return of you-know-whotekh last week, part of me had regrets I'd decided not to follow this series (after Goblinmas and hearing about the Space Babies.)
On reading this thread about the 'grand finale', no, I made the right decision! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/mW7FMmAyG_vqxkNOJyyh.gif)
One good thing to come out of it - I loved the newly reprocessed 'film' look of the TFTT 'Pyramids of Mars' interiors (where they used studio video in the 70s of course) and how they now blended really well with the location film sequences. Very nice indeed.
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Post by shallacatop on Jun 22, 2024 9:58:18 GMT
how reductive it all is of Pyramids of Mars.
Particularly that it actually reverses the backstory and makes the Osirans ripoff Egyptian culture, rather than vice-versa (previously a joke in Futurama). Presumably this is because attributing alien influences to cultures is a bit iffy, but perhaps they ought not to use Sutekh if there's anything about him that makes people uncomfortable
Oh yes, I’d forgotten about the cultural appropriation line. That got a baffled “eh?!” at the pictures from a few.
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Post by sherlock on Jun 22, 2024 10:03:31 GMT
Particularly that it actually reverses the backstory and makes the Osirans ripoff Egyptian culture, rather than vice-versa (previously a joke in Futurama). Presumably this is because attributing alien influences to cultures is a bit iffy, but perhaps they ought not to use Sutekh if there's anything about him that makes people uncomfortable
Oh yes, I’d forgotten about the cultural appropriation line. That got a baffled “eh?!” at the pictures from a few. It feels similar to the Toymaker’s overt racism last year; RTD trying to compensate for aspects of classic Who that might not suit 21st century sensibilities. Though tbh if these aspects of old monsters do make him uncomfortable, kinda question why he chose to use them.
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