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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2024 10:08:17 GMT
On hearing about the surprise return of you-know-whotekh last week, part of me had regrets I'd decided not to follow this series (after Goblinmas and hearing about the Space Babies.)
On reading this thread about the 'grand finale', no, I made the right decision! ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/mW7FMmAyG_vqxkNOJyyh.gif)
One good thing to come out of it - I loved the newly reprocessed 'film' look of the TFTT 'Pyramids of Mars' interiors (where they used studio video in the 70s of course) and how they now blended really well with the location film sequences. Very nice indeed.
Actually, take out the first and last ep...Season 1 has been solid to great for me at least. Space Babies was poor and Empire was a joke but the middle stuff? Some fab Who. I wouldn't deprive yourself.. Sounds like you may not like Devil's Chord but 73 Yards? Boom?....
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Post by number13 on Jun 22, 2024 10:09:17 GMT
how reductive it all is of Pyramids of Mars.
Particularly that it actually reverses the backstory and makes the Osirans ripoff Egyptian culture, rather than vice-versa (previously a joke in Futurama). Presumably this is because attributing alien influences to cultures is a bit iffy, but perhaps they ought not to use Sutekh if there's anything about him that makes people uncomfortable
On the same lines, in the TFTT intro to Pyramids, the Doctor says Scarman was 'an Englishman looting' tombs in Egypt. That's just modern (apologies but the word fits here) "woke" point-scoring.
He was Professor Scarman, Fellow of All Souls and a leading archaeologist, not a grave-robber. In 1911 the government in Cairo were very strict about who excavated their heritage and what happened to it afterwards, and quite right too.
This wasn't the Egypt of Napoleon's time over a century before, when his invading army went home with everything they could carry, and one or two things you'd never have thought they could carry, but did.
Everything Marcus Scarman did and found would have been properly recorded and reported (probably in triplicate.) He would have been a foreign scientist excavating (with multiple permits issued beforehand), not some tomb raider "looting" under cover of night and fleeing on a camel with his ill-gotten finds. Though no find could possibly have been so ill-gotten as the one he discovered behind the wall marked with the Eye of Horus...
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shutupbanks
Castellan
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star_blue.png)
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 22, 2024 10:56:34 GMT
Not as bad as End Of Time or Last Of The Time Lords, but not as good as The Parting Of The Ways or (controversial opinion here) Journey’s end.
The bad first: - I wanted more Mel. I loved what we got - the moped, the fond memories of her time in the TARDIS - but the stakes needed to be a bit higher for the audience for her to become a servant of Sutekh, rather than “oh, she’s just1 a friend of the Doctor. - What is the point with the snow if Ruby is just an ordinary human? - Death + death does not equal life. Expired poison will still kill you. RTD has never understood how science works, so this is just another tally on that scoresheet, frankly. - UNIT have put weapons on a Segway designed for the use of a child. Just f@cking no. - that ending was longer than TEoT’s farewell tour. It achieved more, which was great, but after that cliffhanger and that opening, we needed more than Sutekh getting temporal road rash after being dragged through the time vortex behind the Doctor. - so Susan Triad is Clara, with alternate versions scattered across time and space? - not enough Mrs Flood or her story (although it’s nice to know that Servalan’s wardrobe is still getting some use).
The good
- Everyone was superb, acting-wise. - Bonnie Langford was amazing. - it looked fantastic. - I did love the callbacks to 73 Yards although it made no sense in the long run: just how did the perception filter apply to future Ruby?
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Post by Alastair on Jun 22, 2024 12:12:27 GMT
Look, I’m a cynic when it comes to RTD finales. The only season closer of his original run I fully enjoyed was the first. Everything since either failed to live up to the setup, or left me feeling a little cold and emotionally manipulated.
Secondly, I’m a writer who deconstructs everything he sees, and frankly wishes he could turn off his inner script editor and enjoy things more.
So it is not lightly, nor uncritically, that I say this ending left me happy and full-hearted.
The fake deaths of everyone, so clearly there to be reversed, had me worried I wouldn’t feel invested. But the idea of invalidating every past adventure, dooming every world and person the Doctor saved, is such a gut punch of a concept. I ached with him in that moment. Just as I felt the full horror of “I think my daughter died and I forgot”.
As for Ruby’s mother: for every familiar name I desperately wanted to see on that screen, the choice to give her a normal, terrestrial reunion was a good and just one in my book. Moffat went the “clever” route with Pond family parentage and skimmed over the traumatic emotional fallout. And I’ve lost count of the times a major franchise finale will try to pull the rug out at the last moment at the expense of a satisfying final note. It was actually a relief to see Davies put people and closure ahead of his showman’s instinct.
All in all, a season I thoroughly enjoyed. The first RTD arc since Eccleston’s I found more than the sum of its parts. Far from perfect, and full of moments that barely held together in a logical nuts-and-bolts way, but which hit emotional truths that resonated so much with me that it barely mattered. Only one episode I found a dud (Space Babies), and even that was elevated to “silly fun” by the outstanding Ncuti/Millie chemistry. I’m in love with this show and full of hope for the future.
(I haven’t read any other comments in this thread, but I assume this is the general, largely uncontroversial consensus. It’s impossible to know for sure.)
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Post by timleschild on Jun 22, 2024 12:18:10 GMT
(I haven’t read any other comments in this thread, but I assume this is the general, largely uncontroversial consensus. It’s impossible to know for sure.) Oh boy lol
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 22, 2024 13:45:09 GMT
Look, I’m a cynic when it comes to RTD finales. The only season closer of his original run I fully enjoyed was the first. Everything since either failed to live up to the setup, or left me feeling a little cold and emotionally manipulated. Secondly, I’m a writer who deconstructs everything he sees, and frankly wishes he could turn off his inner script editor and enjoy things more. So it is not lightly, nor uncritically, that I say this ending left me happy and full-hearted. The fake deaths of everyone, so clearly there to be reversed, had me worried I wouldn’t feel invested. But the idea of invalidating every past adventure, dooming every world and person the Doctor saved, is such a gut punch of a concept. I ached with him in that moment. Just as I felt the full horror of “I think my daughter died and I forgot”. As for Ruby’s mother: for every familiar name I desperately wanted to see on that screen, the choice to give her a normal, terrestrial reunion was a good and just one in my book. Moffat went the “clever” route with the Pond family and skimmed over the traumatic emotional fallout. And I’ve lost count of the franchise finale will try to pull the rug out at the last moment at the expense of a nice final note. It was actually a relief to see Davies put people and closure ahead of his showman’s instinct. All in all, a season I thoroughly enjoyed. The first RTD arc since Eccleston’s I found more than the sum of its parts. Far from perfect, and full of moments that barely held together in a logical nuts-and-bolts way, but which hit emotional truths that resonated so much with me that it barely mattered. Only one episode I found a dud (Space Babies), and even that was elevated to “silly fun” by the outstanding Ncuti/Millie chemistry. I’m in love with this show and full of hope for the future. (I haven’t read any other comments in this thread, but I assume this is the general, largely uncontroversial consensus. It’s impossible to know for sure.) Seems to me you're more than kind to the season but everything is subjective to everyone I suppose. Right now I'm comparing it to Ryan George's Pitch Meeting for Game of Thrones Season 8 where Producer Guy keeps saying "you can have more episodes" and getting ignored.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 22, 2024 13:46:08 GMT
Goodness. It seems that I'm in the minority here. I really enjoyed the entire series and thought this was a terrific conclusion.
I like it when the show plays with its mythology without being bound by it.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 22, 2024 13:54:49 GMT
Just found Millie's Cinema Intro WTD Its like she's been pulled off a 12 Hour Shoot and told to try to sell it too Armchair Critics! www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNGfbKxEGOIRegards mark687
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Post by timleschild on Jun 22, 2024 14:10:38 GMT
Just found Millie's Cinema Intro WTD Its like she's been pulled off a 12 Hour Shoot and told to try to sell it too Armchair Critics! www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNGfbKxEGOIRegards mark687 Hostage video vibes.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2024 14:32:37 GMT
Poor Millie.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 22, 2024 14:50:43 GMT
The other thing I thought was odd, and again it all unfolds in that middle act that’s a bit aimless, is how reductive it all is of Pyramids of Mars. We’ve got a load of emphasis on the original story, to the point where they show a few clips in Empire of Death and extended that to its own Tales of the TARDIS. Yet we have Sutekh obsessed with Ruby’s mum for some reason, despite being very clear in Pyramids that human beings are beneath him. The Doctor makes a song and dance about how he’s been forced to kill Sutekh, despite quite flippantly doing that previously; this is more than just incarnations having different perspectives. And then we have this omnipotent God taken for a run through the vortex so easily that he can’t cut the rope with his great big talons, yet the TARDIS door can? It works so well in Pyramids because the Doctor flippantly banishes Sutekh as soon as he arrives, knowing what destruction he can unfold.It’s an odd take. Expect this time it won't for "Author Reasoning" even though its the same "Author Reasoning" that made it happen as a result of the 1st time! ![:twisted](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/bqwSOhJDBWpwYA0pLeYm.gif) LOL Regards mark687
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Post by shallacatop on Jun 22, 2024 15:33:53 GMT
Just found Millie's Cinema Intro WTD Its like she's been pulled off a 12 Hour Shoot and told to try to sell it too Armchair Critics! www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNGfbKxEGOIRegards mark687 I’m glad someone’s filmed for the wider audience; when I mentioned it in my post earlier I was worried you’d all think I was exaggerating!
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Post by 20fridge on Jun 22, 2024 18:48:09 GMT
I quite enjoyed this finale. Did it have all the usual RTD cliches? Absolutely. And I'm here for it! I especially loved the reveal of Ruby's mother. I am glad her mother isn't a god or a Time Lord. Having Ruby be totally ordinary and the weirdness being all due to the importance everyone invested in fining her mother's identity was a cool twist. I also loved how big Mel's role was in this. My biggest complaint is, why was Rose in this? I love her as a character and she was great in the specials. But why include her but giver her nothing substantive to do?
I watched this with my wife. She has missed a few episodes over the course of the season, particularly 73 Yards. She found the Roger ap Gillam stuff confusing and the whole 73 yards stuff. But honestly, I'm unsure that it makes much more sense. I'm still puzzling out how it does or doesn't relate. I wonder if there's more to come.
The reveal that Sutekh has been clinging to the TARDIS since the Pyramids of Mars with Susan Twists materializing everywhere the Doctor lands is inadvertently funny to me. Particularly since Moffat did something similar with Clara and Simeon/the Great Intelligence in Name of the Doctor. So, this means that from the Fourth Doctor's era until near the end of the Eleventh Doctor's era three entities have been following the Doctor around and appearing wherever he is. And he never noticed! Now I'm imagining one of the Susan Twists running into a Clara and a Simeon.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 22, 2024 18:54:18 GMT
Particularly that it actually reverses the backstory and makes the Osirans ripoff Egyptian culture, rather than vice-versa (previously a joke in Futurama). Presumably this is because attributing alien influences to cultures is a bit iffy, but perhaps they ought not to use Sutekh if there's anything about him that makes people uncomfortable
On the same lines, in the TFTT intro to Pyramids, the Doctor says Scarman was 'an Englishman looting' tombs in Egypt. That's just modern (apologies but the word fits here) "woke" point-scoring.
He was Professor Scarman, Fellow of All Souls and a leading archaeologist, not a grave-robber. In 1911 the government in Cairo were very strict about who excavated their heritage and what happened to it afterwards, and quite right too.
(Rematerilization noises)
Well, to quote a cliche, 'it's all a matter of perspective'. Depending on who you ask, a scientist in a foreign land taking stuff from it is still a thief in any sense, and when any kind of money is involved, things get grey. In fact, didn't Scarman keep artifacts in his house?
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 22, 2024 18:57:59 GMT
No, we ain't calling this a comeback yet, but I just wanted to drop in with my other S1 thoughts. 73 Yards - evocative, creepy and experimental, though maybe ambition exceeds grasp. 3.5. Dot and Bubble - magnificent satire with a gut punch ending. Ncuti gives another defining performance. 5. Rogue - silly candy floss and the romance is rushed, but it is really earnest and seeing people feel seen by the ep has to count for something. 3. Legend/Empire - Woolf has still got it, and I don't mind the mum reveal. Honestly, it's one of the best parts. The rest is... complicated. It's fun and full of great moments, but it still has some of that Chibnall rollercoaster mentality where things don't breathe properly. Not giving a score because I feel I need to chew on it some more (dog pun? You decide, dear reader).
All in all, at least as a preliminary verdict, flawed but the most well rounded series since S10 and I'm glad there has been some substance after years of overly cautious thrill-focused arcs. Maybe RTD has quite stuck to landing, but Ncuti sure has.
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Post by number13 on Jun 22, 2024 21:33:17 GMT
On the same lines, in the TFTT intro to Pyramids, the Doctor says Scarman was 'an Englishman looting' tombs in Egypt. That's just modern (apologies but the word fits here) "woke" point-scoring.
He was Professor Scarman, Fellow of All Souls and a leading archaeologist, not a grave-robber. In 1911 the government in Cairo were very strict about who excavated their heritage and what happened to it afterwards, and quite right too.
(Rematerilization noises)
Well, to quote a cliche, 'it's all a matter of perspective'. Depending on who you ask, a scientist in a foreign land taking stuff from it is still a thief in any sense, and when any kind of money is involved, things get grey. In fact, didn't Scarman keep artifacts in his house?
Welcome back!! ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/IwGTjEvWiMqDCgEk5m52.gif)
EDIT: Rest of post deleted because on second thoughts I can't be bothered. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/mW7FMmAyG_vqxkNOJyyh.gif)
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 22, 2024 22:05:49 GMT
I'm mostly happy with the finale. If nothing else, it's great to hear Gabriel's silky Sutekh performance again.
The reveal that he's been there all along, regrowing his strength, attaining his new form, and undoing all the Doctor's work. In a way it's reminisent of the Great Intellegence's plan in The Name of the Doctor. (Or the evil dinosaur-hating asteroids from Rick & Morty.)
I'm fine with the mum being normal, though a little mixed on Sutekh being so invested. What's all that stuff about the song in Ruby's soul? Or time changing inside the time window? And the pointing felt a bit contrived. But I'm fine with it as a thematic resolution to the Ruby's mother mystery.
The reunion was great, the goodbye was great. Dragging Sutekh through the vortex was awesome. The scene with the mother turning to dust and... didn't quite get why they needed the spoon.
I'll be honest, writing up by thoughts, I have hit a bit of fridge logic. Who knows how well it'll hold up on a second watch. (Funnily enough, that was my experience with The Last Jedi.) But I did enjoy it a lot at the time.
And I'll add one more in for assuming the Timelords have been revived implicitly. Maybe it was just the ones Sutekh killed... who knows?
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Post by bethhigdon on Jun 22, 2024 22:09:00 GMT
I'm mostly happy with the finale. If nothing else, it's great to hear Gabriel's silky Sutekh performance again. The reveal that he's been there all along, regrowing his strength, attaining his new form, and undoing all the Doctor's work. In a way it's reminisent of the Great Intellegence's plan in The Name of the Doctor. (Or the evil dinosaur-hating asteroids from Rick & Morty.) I'm fine with the mum being normal, though a little mixed on Sutekh being so invested. What's all that stuff about the song in Ruby's soul? Or time changing inside the time window? And the pointing felt a bit contrived. But I'm fine with it as a thematic resolution to the Ruby's mother mystery. The reunion was great, the goodbye was great. Dragging Sutekh through the vortex was awesome. The scene with the mother turning to dust and... didn't quite get why they needed the spoon. I'll be honest, writing up by thoughts, I have hit a bit of fridge logic. Who knows how well it'll hold up on a second watch. (Funnily enough, that was my experience with The Last Jedi.) But I did enjoy it a lot at the time. And I'll add one more in for assuming the Timelords have been revived implicitly. Maybe it was just the ones Sutekh killed... who knows? Also does this fix the Flux or not?
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Post by dasmaniac on Jun 22, 2024 22:48:01 GMT
Anyone have any ideas how you can reconcile Big Finish's Sutekh stories with this? Seems very difficult to do so.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 23, 2024 0:33:34 GMT
Anyone have any ideas how you can reconcile Big Finish's Sutekh stories with this? Seems very difficult to do so. *cough* Time War *cough* 7's Future Battle with Sutekh continues to exist in the Doctor's memory but perhaps nowhere else (Benny and Ace perhaps?) but now? Now things are different. And always have been, even though they weren't yesterday.
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