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Post by 20fridge on Jun 23, 2024 0:43:10 GMT
Anyone have any ideas how you can reconcile Big Finish's Sutekh stories with this? Seems very difficult to do so. *cough* Time War *cough* 7's Future Battle with Sutekh continues to exist in the Doctor's memory but perhaps nowhere else (Benny and Ace perhaps?) but now? Now things are different. And always have been, even though they weren't yesterday. Or those stories are part of the jigsaw puzzle that is the Doctor's personal history thanks to the Toymaker... Actually, that makes me wonder if Sutekh clinging to the TARDIS is result of the Toymaker's interference. Like the Toymaker was trying to help out a fellow god by retconning the Doctor's history so that Sutekh did that rather than how he escaped to be in other stories.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
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There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 23, 2024 0:45:56 GMT
Was chatting with my wife after we watched the episode and one of our dogs - who is half German Shepherd, one quarter Rottweiler, one quarter Doberman and a sprinkling of horse - suddenly sits by the door to indicate that he wants to go outside. We look at him and we both simultaneously say something along the lines of, “We should cosplay him as Sutekh.”
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jun 23, 2024 1:42:53 GMT
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Post by theillusiveman on Jun 23, 2024 3:54:49 GMT
So according to the commentary RTD was inspired by the last Jedi for the reveal of Ruby’s mother as “subversion of expectations”
Which considering the entire season was building up the mystery of Ruby with characters like maestro hinting towards something and the fact that Ruby can create snow ended up having no payoff
Just when my opinion of RTD couldn’t get any lower
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Post by Whovitt on Jun 23, 2024 4:21:49 GMT
Something that's been bothering me a bit about the reaction to the finale is how "so much is left unresolved". There seems to be a large portion of the fanbase (I'm not singling anyone out here, just making a general observation) who are dissatisfied with the explanations around Ruby. The snow thing is something a lot of people are unhappy about for "not making sense". Hell, even I mentioned it was irksome in my initial post in this thread. The thing is, there's something I wasn't considering when I wrote that, and it's something I think a lot of people still aren't necessarily considering.
Ruby's story isn't actually done yet. The episode presents itself as her final episode, but we KNOW she's going to be in Season 2. It's been announced. And while I can't remember where I read it, I saw a quote for Russell calling this a "pause" in Ruby and the Doctor's adventures. In many ways, this is a modern series Time-Flight - instead of Tegan being left behind at Heathrow, the Doctor and Ruby chose to part ways. That doesn't mean that Ruby isn't going to show up again in the very next episode, like Tegan did in Arc of Infinity (yes, she technically doesn't appear "in the next episode" as she's not in Arc until Part Two, but you get my meaning). The same thing happened with Clara in Death in Heaven - the episode presents her goodbye to the Doctor like it's the final time, but they went on to spend the whole of Series 9 together! And this idea doesn't just apply to Ruby. There's been a lot of stuff about Mrs Flood and the lack of meaningful development around here as well. Not everything needs to be explained straight away, or even quickly. Having longer-lasting mysteries can be just as entertaining, provided people give them the chance to play out.
My main point in this - just because everything hasn't been explained yet, that doesn't mean it isn't going to be in the long run. Look at Matt Smith's era - storylines set up in The Eleventh Hour wouldn't be entirely resolved until over three and a half years later in The Time of the Doctor. Longform storytelling has just as much a place in Doctor Who as short- and medium-term storytelling. Maybe it's a part of that instant gratification thing the world's apparently coming to, but I think if more people were just a little bit patient and allowed things to play out in their own time, they'd feel less put out by this finale. Just my two cents.
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Post by number13 on Jun 23, 2024 7:45:50 GMT
Interesting post from Whovitt and I thought a bit about the Tegan analogy. Was that the first example of a pointless 'ooh this'll get them talking' bit of "showrunning"? (We didn't call it that back then, but you know what I mean.) Meaningless in the long term, just there for an instant 'wow'. I don't like that sort of writing then or now, it seems lazy and sensationalist at the same time.
Classic Who almost didn't do very long-term plot strands and arcs, but there was one which works really well in hindsight and did at the time: Mike Yates. Nobody (including the writers) knew that the dashing young captain, here to help fight off the Autons again, was going to end up brainwashed by a mad computer, deprogrammed via an alien blue crystal (and who knows what side-effects that had, for all the Doctor's intentions were good), having a nervous breakdown, joining a cult and almost helping to wipe human civilisation 1.0 from history, before finally helping to save the world from evil spider overlords from the same planet as the blue crystal.
A 'New Who' fan watching S8-S11 and seeing it unfold on iPlayer might think it was a great strand, well planned and without giveaways. We know it was that old-fashioned thing, good writing, producing and acting which allowed a character to develop over time. Just imagine it now - four years of heavy hints, expectations raised, more hints, telling moments, cryptic social media posts...
Personally, I think Barry Letts and Terrance Dicks did it better. But then, I would, wouldn't I? ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/mW7FMmAyG_vqxkNOJyyh.gif)
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Post by number13 on Jun 23, 2024 8:01:04 GMT
The other thing I thought was odd, and again it all unfolds in that middle act that’s a bit aimless, is how reductive it all is of Pyramids of Mars. We’ve got a load of emphasis on the original story, to the point where they show a few clips in Empire of Death and extended that to its own Tales of the TARDIS. Yet we have Sutekh obsessed with Ruby’s mum for some reason, despite being very clear in Pyramids that human beings are beneath him. The Doctor makes a song and dance about how he’s been forced to kill Sutekh, despite quite flippantly doing that previously; this is more than just incarnations having different perspectives. And then we have this omnipotent God taken for a run through the vortex so easily that he can’t cut the rope with his great big talons, yet the TARDIS door can? It works so well in Pyramids because the Doctor flippantly banishes Sutekh as soon as he arrives, knowing what destruction he can unfold. It’s an odd take. If the Fourth Doctor seemed flippant as he killed Sutekh, and I wouldn't say he was, not by his standards - Tom's Doctor could do 'flippant' better than any of them ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/mW7FMmAyG_vqxkNOJyyh.gif) - then it was to cover his own feelings of both huge relief and regret, I would think. The Fourth Doctor did a lot of that. It's like the moment earlier when they find poor Lawrence, and Sarah tells the Doctor off for seeming not to care, and he replies that he's not human. A point he also made right at the start of the story, in the TARDIS. He's a Time Lord, he walks in eternity.
The other point is of course that Robert Holmes wrote 'Pyramids of Mars', and didn't write 'Empire of Death'. He would not have fitted well into the modern Whoniverse imo, and also imo is the best writer 'Doctor Who' has ever had.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
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There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jun 23, 2024 11:21:15 GMT
Was chatting with my wife after we watched the episode and one of our dogs - who is half German Shepherd, one quarter Rottweiler, one quarter Doberman and a sprinkling of horse - suddenly sits by the door to indicate that he wants to go outside. We look at him and we both simultaneously say something along the lines of, “We should cosplay him as Sutekh.” First go… x.com/stuffianlikes/status/1804832153957732644?s=61&t=nr6lCrpLx2Tk7mWx8PhOPg
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Post by timleschild on Jun 23, 2024 11:56:55 GMT
So according to the commentary RTD was inspired by the last Jedi for the reveal of Ruby’s mother as “subversion of expectations” Which considering the entire season was building up the mystery of Ruby with characters like maestro hinting towards something and the fact that Ruby can create snow ended up having no payoff Just when my opinion of RTD couldn’t get any lower Problem is RTD, YOU set up those expectations then basically did a big F U to fandom.
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Post by timleschild on Jun 23, 2024 11:57:17 GMT
Overnight, Empire Of Death was watched by 2.25m people.
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Post by ollychops on Jun 23, 2024 12:33:03 GMT
Anyone have any ideas how you can reconcile Big Finish's Sutekh stories with this? Seems very difficult to do so. My personal headcanon is that the Sutekh BF stories take place after Empire, but the Doctor doesn’t recall them because they don’t “happen” until after Sutekh is thrown back into the vortex. (Admittedly I haven’t listened to the BF stories in a while so there might be something contradictory, but that’s my take for now.)
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Post by Alastair on Jun 23, 2024 13:45:03 GMT
For those who liked it and perhaps feel a little crowded out in this thread, a quick survey of four IRL friends (all lifelong fans in their 30s-40s), completely independently of one another, had a more or less unanimous consensus.
Essentially: “Enjoyable, hit home emotionally, a predictable and familiar structure for a finale but it took Ruby’s story where it needed to go.”
You Are Not Alone.
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Post by daz on Jun 23, 2024 14:29:06 GMT
I gave this a four out of five in the survey above. I have some criticisms.
On one hand the stakes were huge and the huge waves of sand and death were impressive. On the other hand I knew there was a zero percent chance that they were going to kill off Kate at this stage so I was fully expecting recoveries. But they could have allowed _some_ kind of long term consequences. Heck, even the Toymaker's victims stayed dead, so Sutekh should have left a mark.
We don't really get an explicit explanation for the snow, and the fact that Sutekh placed importance on Ruby's mother just because the Doctor and Ruby did seemed weak and insufficient, and I don't get why Ruby's mother stood spookily pointing at a sign when all she was doing was choosing a child's name. Ther denouement took 15 minutes: maybe that long sequence of hugs and farewells could have been compressed somewhat to leave room to better explain these things. Or perhaps there's more to come on these issues.
Still, there was enough that I liked in the episode to outweigh what I didn't like.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2024 14:41:59 GMT
"So Mum, why did you wear an ominous cloak no teen girl would have worn in 1904 much less 2004? And why did you point to the street sign saying Ruby Road even though no-one was watching? Did you assume you'd need to look mysterious and then point out the name for potential time travellers?"
This ep gets dumber the more I think about it.
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Post by ollychops on Jun 23, 2024 19:31:53 GMT
Rewatched this with the parents - it did not improve upon rewatch. The Ruby reveal went down like a lead balloon and the comment afterwards was “That was full of plot holes”. So…
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Post by sherlock on Jun 23, 2024 19:36:18 GMT
Rewatched this with the parents - it did not improve upon rewatch. The Ruby reveal went down like a lead balloon and the comment afterwards was “That was full of plot holes”. So… My causal viewer Dad did also throw some plot questions at me he was bemused by, including whether the split TARDIS last year duplicated Sutekh. I had nothing, bar an assumption Sutekh jumped on Fifteenth’s just cos he was keeping travelling.
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Post by agentten on Jun 23, 2024 19:55:05 GMT
Highs and lows here.
Highs: - Loved having Mel along for most of the episode. I'm glad Davies is using her. - The opening was jaw dropping. Watching the death sand wipe out everything was shocking and frightening. - Love that The Doctor saved the universe with a spoon. - Clearly, we're being set up for the reunion between The Doctor and Susan and thank goodness a showrunner is finally doing it. - Lovely moment when Mel finds old Sixie's coat on the memory Tardis. - The Doctor returned to a familiar outfit, putting on that long brown coat from "The Church on Ruby Road". His fashion has been all over the place and I personally prefer when The Doctor has an identifiable, consistent outfit. Some variation is fine, but I like consistency in the outfit. - The way that Sutekh used Susan to trap The Doctor was a good payoff and a clever idea.
Lows: - The actress playing Rose Noble wasn't in the episode much, but in the scene where UNIT is facing down Sutekh, just before they die, everyone is shooting guns at Sutekh in a last stand situation, but she's posed nonchalant, tapping casually on her data pad. I guess she was going for "calm in the face of danger" but the body language was totally wrong and really distracted from a great moment. Even if she were recording combat data for analysis, at least look like you're in a dangerous situation. Also, maybe take cover since you're not using a weapon. Bad staging as well. - Sutekh was defeated too easily. I like the *way* The Doctor defeated him, just not how quickly. - Ruby's mum being a normal person makes no sense. I like the emotional beats of it, but why would her mum wear a cloak and point with a weird bony finger at a sign while no one is looking at her and that somehow is meant to tell the no one who's around that the child's name is Ruby. Further, what is with the snow? Ruby manifests real snow when she's in danger. Are we meant to think that's the memory manifesting the way the memory Tardis becomes real? I don't buy it. If Ruby can manifest memories, she is not a normal human. Furthermore, RTD brought up the 73 yards thing again, reminding us of this strange thing about Ruby that she may have a perception filter, so I don't buy that she's just a human. If anything, I think before I'd say she was human, I'd be more inclined to say I think she's a Tardis and that Mrs. Flood's comment, "Haven't you ever seen a Tardis before?" was not referencing The Doctor's Tardis, but rather Ruby herself. It's just a theory, but it makes more sense to me than Ruby being a normal human with all this weird stuff about her. I'd bet good money that the happily ever after Ruby got is a misdirect because it just doesn't resolve major things that have been dangled at us for multiple episodes. We know she's coming back for season two so I can only assume this is a misdirect, but it's a little strange to pretend everything is wrapped up. A simple moment after Ruby leaves the Tardis at the end of the episode and a snowflake falls in front of The Doctor would have been a nice acknowledgement that yes, there is more to this, you aren't crazy for thinking this is leaving many things unresolved. - If RTD was truly inspired, as he said in an interview, by The Last Jedi to subvert our expectations and make Ruby a normal person just as Rey was supposed to be a normal person in that film (before the next film changed it back to her having Force ancestry) then he's watching the wrong media for inspiration because The Last Jedi does not work. It actively fouls up the entire franchise. - If RTD is going to use former companions at UNIT, and I'm glad he is, then why is The Vlinx there and not K-9, Kamelion, or Mr. Smith? Small quibble, I guess, but it seems like a missed opportunity to use those characters rather than create a new one that serves the same function. - The Doctor's tears in this episode were appropriate and called for, but had significantly less impact because of how often he's cried this season.
Other things: - The woman in the tent mentions a man a couple of times who seemed to have a greater understanding of what was happening. I kept thinking this was Fourteen and this was RTDs way of letting us know what he was up to during all of this. - Is Gallifrey alive again or did the effect only reverse the specific damage that Sutekh did? For that matter, is Skaro back, too? - Still missing Osgood, but I'm ready for the UNIT spin-off.
All in all, a bit of a mixed bag, however on the whole I enjoyed the episode. I have some strong criticisms of parts of it, but had a good time watching.
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Post by shallacatop on Jun 23, 2024 19:58:33 GMT
Yep, my casual viewer missus was bemused by the whole thing too, and she’s watched the full series, so hasn’t missed any of the journey.
From laughing to the visual of Sutekh clinging to the TARDIS as it went into the vortex, questioning the missing DNA stuff from 73 Yards, confusion why the origins of Ruby’s parents couldn’t have been found before now and disappointment about the reveal. She was also quite frustrated at the Doctor still being indifferent to visiting Susan at the end, despite having seen none of her episodes. I have to agree, there’s been enough in this series to realistically expect her to turn up, or at the very least get an indication that it’s part of the Doctor’s journey in the foreseeable. Would’ve been in line with the usual RTD series cliffhangers that keep you watching. I keep thinking about the clip with RTD and Susan Twist last week with him encouraging engagement and offering little substance when it comes to the conclusion.
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Post by ollychops on Jun 23, 2024 21:05:45 GMT
I forgot to mention this earlier but did anyone else feel that the reason for Ruby leaving was a bit... contrived? I get that he wants her to connect with her birth parents but he could have just said "I'll pop back in a while" - it also felt like it wasn't really her choice, kinda reminded me of Thirteen and Yaz.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 23, 2024 22:56:22 GMT
I forgot to mention this earlier but did anyone else feel that the reason for Ruby leaving was a bit... contrived? I get that he wants her to connect with her birth parents but he could have just said "I'll pop back in a while" - it also felt like it wasn't really her choice, kinda reminded me of Thirteen and Yaz. It's a TIME MACHINE. RUBY: Will you be gone long? DOCTOR: Let me just flick this switch...(Pops into the TARDIS, it flickers) TARDIS NOISES. (Doctor sticks head out of door) DOCTOR: So, how did it go? RUBY: What? I literally just said that! DOCTOR: OH! Ok, I've been away for four months. Tell you what, text me when you're ready. RUBY: FOUR MON...okay, I'll text you!
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