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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2024 12:17:43 GMT
To pick up what a few have said, RTD liked a response saying ONLY Sutekh's actions in the ep were undone. SO no Gallifrey, Flux etc.
Which makes sense - as much as any of this nonsense ep does - it's undoing just the deaths Sutekh caused. Not death in general since Pyramids - or the universe would be dead of starvation pretty quickly.
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Post by daz on Jun 24, 2024 15:31:10 GMT
I gave this a four out of five in the survey above. I have some criticisms. On one hand the stakes were huge and the huge waves of sand and death were impressive. On the other hand I knew there was a zero percent chance that they were going to kill off Kate at this stage so I was fully expecting recoveries. But they could have allowed _some_ kind of long term consequences. Heck, even the Toymaker's victims stayed dead, so Sutekh should have left a mark. We don't really get an explicit explanation for the snow, and the fact that Sutekh placed importance on Ruby's mother just because the Doctor and Ruby did seemed weak and insufficient, and I don't get why Ruby's mother stood spookily pointing at a sign when all she was doing was choosing a child's name. Ther denouement took 15 minutes: maybe that long sequence of hugs and farewells could have been compressed somewhat to leave room to better explain these things. Or perhaps there's more to come on these issues. Still, there was enough that I liked in the episode to outweigh what I didn't like. RTD has since put out a little video explaining that there is more to come with regard to the mystery of Rose's parents so I _suppose_ I'll have to be patient to see whether some of these things are adequately resolved. |
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Post by ollychops on Jun 24, 2024 18:03:33 GMT
I gave this a four out of five in the survey above. I have some criticisms. On one hand the stakes were huge and the huge waves of sand and death were impressive. On the other hand I knew there was a zero percent chance that they were going to kill off Kate at this stage so I was fully expecting recoveries. But they could have allowed _some_ kind of long term consequences. Heck, even the Toymaker's victims stayed dead, so Sutekh should have left a mark. We don't really get an explicit explanation for the snow, and the fact that Sutekh placed importance on Ruby's mother just because the Doctor and Ruby did seemed weak and insufficient, and I don't get why Ruby's mother stood spookily pointing at a sign when all she was doing was choosing a child's name. Ther denouement took 15 minutes: maybe that long sequence of hugs and farewells could have been compressed somewhat to leave room to better explain these things. Or perhaps there's more to come on these issues. Still, there was enough that I liked in the episode to outweigh what I didn't like. RTD has since put out a little video explaining that there is more to come with regard to the mystery of Rose's parents so I _suppose_ I'll have to be patient to see whether some of these things are adequately resolved. That surprises me given that Mrs Flood’s comment suggests that her arc is done. |
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Post by dasmaniac on Jun 24, 2024 18:14:01 GMT
Did anyone else notice that most of the women with major roles in both parts of the finale were over 60?
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Post by timleschild on Jun 24, 2024 20:01:46 GMT
Did anyone else notice that most of the women with major roles in both parts of the finale were over 60? Really? The only major female role in the finale apart from Millie was Bonnie Langford? |
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Post by timleschild on Jun 24, 2024 20:02:24 GMT
I gave this a four out of five in the survey above. I have some criticisms. On one hand the stakes were huge and the huge waves of sand and death were impressive. On the other hand I knew there was a zero percent chance that they were going to kill off Kate at this stage so I was fully expecting recoveries. But they could have allowed _some_ kind of long term consequences. Heck, even the Toymaker's victims stayed dead, so Sutekh should have left a mark. We don't really get an explicit explanation for the snow, and the fact that Sutekh placed importance on Ruby's mother just because the Doctor and Ruby did seemed weak and insufficient, and I don't get why Ruby's mother stood spookily pointing at a sign when all she was doing was choosing a child's name. Ther denouement took 15 minutes: maybe that long sequence of hugs and farewells could have been compressed somewhat to leave room to better explain these things. Or perhaps there's more to come on these issues. Still, there was enough that I liked in the episode to outweigh what I didn't like. RTD has since put out a little video explaining that there is more to come with regard to the mystery of Rose's parents so I _suppose_ I'll have to be patient to see whether some of these things are adequately resolved. Yep. More crap from RTD. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 25, 2024 13:02:02 GMT
Just relistening to Benny and 7 in "The Pyramid of Sutekh". THIS is how you do Sutekh.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jun 25, 2024 21:24:10 GMT
I Can’t be the only one who thought that when he got the whistle he was going to summon K9, surely ….
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Post by Chakoteya on Jun 26, 2024 8:39:05 GMT
When a person has to keep putting out interviews and videos etc. trying to explain or justify the results of their actions, then they are in the wrong job. Just my personal opinion.
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 26, 2024 22:25:09 GMT
I was thinking about how Susan was a little like an anti-Clara, a persona iterated through thee Doctor's timeline. Another funny comparison to the Great Intellegence. But then I thought, the mystery feels a lot like the Season Arcs Moffat did too, in that it asks a provocative question or creates a scenario, to which the answer is either no, or the question wasn't really the important part.
Series 6: The Doctor is supposed to die.
He just doesn't. (Of course he can't.)
Series 7: What is the Doctor's name. Does the fact we don't know it imply he's hiding something sinister.
No. What the Doctor does is more important than what his actual name is. And his name was chosen because he wants to help.
60th: What if there was a secret Dark Doctor that didn't ashere to his moral standards?
Turns out, he's still the Doctor. Not even a particularly dark one. He's just in a terrible situation, and future incatarnations choose to dissociate.
Series 8: Is the Doctor a good man?
Yes. Flawed but basically yes. He's the hero of a hit family show. He can never be THAT bad.
Series 9: Who is the Hyrbrid? It must be well hard!
It's really about Clara's recklessness, and the Doctor and Clara's unhealthy co-dependence. Maybe we're all the Hybrid.
While I have enjoyed this Season as a whole, I have found myself reflecting poorly on this aspect. The great acting of the reunion holds it together, but as a Season arc, like most of the others I listed, it feels like a parlour trick that doesn't quite justify itself.
(RTD makes the comparison to The Last Jedi, and I agree that Rey being no one special had more intedgrity than what followed. But it was also rooted in what was set up. Crying as she's left in the custody of a junker who uses her for labour while a ship flies away. Huffing copium as she asserts that her family will come back for her, as she stares upon a crone like a window into her future. I think one character flat out said "your family isn't coming back for you".)
Maybe there's more to come. Maybe her mum is normal but her dad is K9 wearing an Omega Helmet. But I don't wanna fall into the trap of hoping that what doesn't work now will work later. That path leads to narkiness.
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Post by relativetime on Jun 27, 2024 3:30:49 GMT
I was thinking about how Susan was a little like an anti-Clara, a persona iterated through thee Doctor's timeline. Another funny comparison to the Great Intellegence. But then I thought, the mystery feels a lot like the Season Arcs Moffat did too, in that it asks a provocative question or creates a scenario, to which the answer is either no, or the question wasn't really the important part. Series 6: The Doctor is supposed to die. He just doesn't. (Of course he can't.) Series 7: What is the Doctor's name. Does the fact we don't know it imply he's hiding something sinister. No. What the Doctor does is more important than what his actual name is. And his name was chosen because he wants to help. 60th: What if there was a secret Dark Doctor that didn't ashere to his moral standards? Turns out, he's still the Doctor. Not even a particularly dark one. He's just in a terrible situation, and future incatarnations choose to dissociate. Series 8: Is the Doctor a good man? Yes. Flawed but basically yes. He's the hero of a hit family show. He can never be THAT bad. Series 9: Who is the Hyrbrid? It must be well hard! It's really about Clara's recklessness, and the Doctor and Clara's unhealthy co-dependence. Maybe we're all the Hybrid. While I have enjoyed this Season as a whole, I have found myself reflecting poorly on this aspect. The great acting of the reunion holds it together, but as a Season arc, like most of the others I listed, it feels like a parlour trick that doesn't quite justify itself. (RTD makes the comparison to The Last Jedi, and I agree that Rey being no one special had more intedgrity than what followed. But it was also rooted in what was set up. Crying as she's left in the custody of a junker who uses her for labour while a ship flies away. Huffing copium as she asserts that her family will come back for her, as she stares upon a crone like a window into her future. I think one character flat out said "your family isn't coming back for you".) Maybe there's more to come. Maybe her mum is normal but her dad is K9 wearing an Omega Helmet. But I don't wanna fall into the trap of hoping that what doesn't work now will work later. That path leads to narkiness. Honestly to me it would feel like more of a cop out to have the father turn out to be someone important. It'd kind of rob this ending of its impact, flawed as it is, and make the exact same mistake that The Rise of Skywalker did with making Rey a Palpatine. Speaking of The Last Jedi, I think the direction of this storyline actually ignores the bigger point of Rey's parents in that that mystery doesn't actually matter. That's the ending I think RTD should have gone for here - who Ruby's mother was originally isn't so important as the mother who actually raised her. The reunion with her birth mother was sweet and easily my favorite scene in the episode, but I think it would have meant a whole lot more to me if that touching moment was Ruby realizing the only mother she really needs is Carla, who really feels as though she somehow sank into the background of the show anyways since the first episode. |
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jun 27, 2024 22:20:14 GMT
We should have gotten a new title sequence with thr Doom Puppy on the TARDIS and a gag reel of Gabe Woolf going “WEEE! YAAHOOO!!!” in time with the effects.
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Post by agentten on Jun 28, 2024 6:03:14 GMT
Having watched a second time, I think I've sussed out what's going on with Ruby, at least up to a point. The question of who Ruby's mother is has been a driving mystery all season and I think many were surprised to find she was a normal person, myself included. Ruby's mom is and isn't normal and is and isn't real.
It all comes down to the scene when The Doctor explains how Sutekh used the Tardis perception filter to create Susan Triad and give each version of her their own history so they would be authentic to where they were, fitting into every environment each version of her was placed in. I think the same thing is happening with Ruby. The perception filter that Ruby is established to have in "73 Yards" adjusts as it goes, which is why The Doctor's memories of that night at the church were changing. The filter had to adjust because The Doctor entered the situation and started looking for answers so it had to create new elements so The Doctor's memories changed each time there was an adjustment. This is why the road sign that Ruby's mother is pointing at literally materializes right before our eyes. It's the filter changing things as needed. When everything is over and Sutekh is defeated, Ruby still wonders about her mom and all of a sudden she has one. This is despite no one previously being able to find her mom including The Doctor and UNIT and even Davina McCall. They only find a way to check Ruby's DNA when Ruby is holding the screen that's projecting memories and the solution is tied to the "73 Yards" episode by the appearance of that episode's villain. This is the filter working through Ruby.
Ruby is able to manifest memories. She manifests snow, music, cold, and is the thing that holds the memory Tardis together when The Doctor calls on her to focus on it and remember so it will come to life and stabilize. This feels like it's tied to how the perception filter works. Ruby and the filter both change reality. I think there's more to learn here, but Ruby is either a creation of Sutekh, who used the Tardis perception filter to put her into The Doctor's life and make her real by giving her a backstory and even mysteries to tempt The Doctor, or Ruby has been placed there by whoever her real mother is to protect her, hence the filter. We know Timelords sometimes hide away, and perhaps Ruby is being hidden.
One other interesting thing I noted is that it seemed Ruby could not be manipulated by Sutekh. Sutekh could manipulate Mel even though she survived the dust and got into the memory Tardis safely because she still had dead cells, as the episode explains. There's a little bit of dead matter in all of us and Sutekh could use that to spy on The Doctor through Mel and even communicate with Mel, however he didn't do anything to Ruby. Why not? He wanted to know who her mother was, so why didn't he just look through her when she read the screen that had the name on it? Is it because Ruby doesn't have any dead matter? Is she not strictly human, but rather an invention of a sort? I'm not sure about this last bit, but I think it's pretty clear that "73 Yards" was a very important episode this season because it establishes that Ruby has a perception filter and then in "Empire of Death" we learn what Sutekh was able to do with the filter and it starts to tie things together. Ruby's life is a creation of the filter that she has. They are still "real" as The Doctor tells Susan Triad that she's still who she is, but all of that history fell into place around Ruby as the result of the filter. I'm not sure if this means the Sunday family is part of the filter's work, but I think her newly found birth mother is. What that all means for Ruby I can only hope we'll discover next season. This second viewing really clarified an initially frustrating wrap up to the "what's going on with Ruby?" storyline. Maybe RTD decided to take a hit to tell the story this way, knowing people would be upset but perhaps hoping people would catch on to the clues, I don't know. I guess we'll find out next season.
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Post by daz on Jun 28, 2024 6:03:29 GMT
When a person has to keep putting out interviews and videos etc. trying to explain or justify the results of their actions, then they are in the wrong job. Just my personal opinion. I think he should have anticipated this audience reaction a bit and included some scenes or did some reframing to make it clear that there are still things unresolved. |
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Post by theillusiveman on Jun 28, 2024 6:50:37 GMT
When a person has to keep putting out interviews and videos etc. trying to explain or justify the results of their actions, then they are in the wrong job. Just my personal opinion. RTD said in the commentary he was inspired by the last Jedi’s (ffs RTD) And did the same for Ruby’s parentage despite setting up a mystery box and the whole snowing while Ruby is feeling emotional and maestro’s panic at Ruby in the devils cord It makes no sense in the larger narrative but mind you considering RTD’s comments about social media and basically creating stuff for content engagement it comes across as cynical like RTD doesn’t really care about writing a good story and is writing for clicks and viewers |
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Post by timleschild on Jun 28, 2024 9:12:58 GMT
When a person has to keep putting out interviews and videos etc. trying to explain or justify the results of their actions, then they are in the wrong job. Just my personal opinion. I think he should have anticipated this audience reaction a bit and included some scenes or did some reframing to make it clear that there are still things unresolved. He doesn't care anymore. Content to chase an audience that don't even watch TV just tiktok clips of the show. |
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Post by mark687 on Jun 28, 2024 9:21:24 GMT
Having watched a second time, I think I've sussed out what's going on with Ruby, at least up to a point. The question of who Ruby's mother is has been a driving mystery all season and I think many were surprised to find she was a normal person, myself included. Ruby's mom is and isn't normal and is and isn't real. It all comes down to the scene when The Doctor explains how Sutekh used the Tardis perception filter to create Susan Triad and give each version of her their own history so they would be authentic to where they were, fitting into every environment each version of her was placed in. I think the same thing is happening with Ruby. The perception filter that Ruby is established to have in "73 Yards" adjusts as it goes, which is why The Doctor's memories of that night at the church were changing. The filter had to adjust because The Doctor entered the situation and started looking for answers so it had to create new elements so The Doctor's memories changed each time there was an adjustment. It's the filter changing things as needed. When everything is over and Sutekh is defeated, Ruby still wonders about her mom and all of a sudden she has one. This is despite no one previously being able to find her mom including The Doctor and UNIT and even Davina McCall. They only find a way to check Ruby's DNA when Ruby is holding the screen that's projecting memories and the solution is tied to the "73 Yards" episode by the appearance of that episode's villain. This is the filter working through Ruby. Ruby is able to manifest memories. She manifests snow, music, cold, and is the thing that holds the memory Tardis together when The Doctor calls on her to focus on it and remember so it will come to life and stabilize. This feels like it's tied to how the perception filter works. Ruby and the filter both change reality. I think there's more to learn here, but Ruby is either a creation of Sutekh, who used the Tardis perception filter to put her into The Doctor's life and make her real by giving her a backstory and even mysteries to tempt The Doctor, or Ruby has been placed there by whoever her real mother is to protect her, hence the filter. We know Timelords sometimes hide away, and perhaps Ruby is being hidden. One other interesting thing I noted is that it seemed Ruby could not be manipulated by Sutekh. Sutekh could manipulate Mel even though she survived the dust and got into the memory Tardis safely because she still had dead cells, as the episode explains. There's a little bit of dead matter in all of us and Sutekh could use that to spy on The Doctor through Mel and even communicate with Mel, however he didn't do anything to Ruby. Why not? He wanted to know who her mother was, so why didn't he just look through her when she read the screen that had the name on it? Is it because Ruby doesn't have any dead matter? Is she not strictly human, but rather an invention of a sort? I'm not sure about this last bit, but I think it's pretty clear that "73 Yards" was a very important episode this season because it establishes that Ruby has a perception filter and then in "Empire of Death" we learn what Sutekh was able to do with the filter and it starts to tie things together. Ruby's life is a creation of the filter that she has. They are still "real" as The Doctor tells Susan Triad that she's still who she is, but all of that history fell into place around Ruby as the result of the filter. I'm not sure if this means the Sunday family is part of the filter's work, but I think her newly found birth mother is. What that all means for Ruby I can only hope we'll discover next season. This second viewing really clarified an initially frustrating wrap up to the "what's going on with Ruby?" storyline. Maybe RTD decided to take a hit to tell the story this way, knowing people would be upset but perhaps hoping people would catch on to the clues, I don't know. I guess we'll find out next season. Works until time resets (even then UNIT finds Mother using the 2044 Database) There's now no reason for the person we now are told is her biological Mother to be pointing at anything let alone the Street sign there's no one there to see. Plus she works in the NHS and never given blood or registered Organ Donation so she's virtually untraceable for Ruby? Also Louise she made the definite decision not to attempt to find the Daughter she knows she made a definite gesture to Name, all she needs do is check online Records for girls named Ruby with D O B of Xmas Eve 1984 (which Ruby's already inputted BTW). Regards mark687 |
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Kestrel
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,693
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Post by Kestrel on Jun 29, 2024 17:02:15 GMT
Finally got around to watching this, a bit late.
I don't really have much to say about it. It's not a very interesting story, it's not a very good story; the acting is solid, but the script demands very little from the actors. The pacing is weird and the overall narrative arc feels more like a squiggly line than anything else. I've had this though before about some of the other RTD2 stories, but with Empire of Death especially, it really feels like a very rushed script that underwent very little (or no) revision. And maybe it's the editor in me coming out, but I'd say the revision process is arguably the most important step in the whole process.
So, no, I don't feel like nitpicking. Doubly so in light of all the other little problems inherited from the preceding episode that I refrained from going into then.
One thing I will point out: did anyone else notice how Ncuti Gatwa was wearing a different costume in every scene? Normally this is a really good thing, but it's kind of distracting when the character is meant to be rushing from one scene to another as fast as possible, only for the framing to imply that he's stopping for a bit to change clothes along the way.
More broadly speaking, I'd like to point at my write-up over the preceding story and issue a blanket "I-Told-You-So." I feel like a lot of folks tend to be much more forgiving of a weak opening episode to a two-parter, on the assumption that some or most of the issues can potentially be papered-over in the final part. I vehemently object to giving stories that kind of benefit-of-the-doubt: any given work of media has to be able to stand on its own. If one story can only be described as good in relation to another story, it ain't a good story. And to put things a tad more concretely: never in my life have I seen the second-episode of a two-parter that was as-good-or-better than the first part. Certainly not in Doctor Who, and probably not elsewhere, either, to the best of my recollection.
And pretty much everything that didn't work in Empire of Death also failed to work in The Legend of Ruby Sunday.
In any other context, I might be able to say that results in this being one of the weaker seasons of Doctor Who in a long while. Sadly that's not the case. But despite a few really good, standout episodes, the overall quality of the series feels very much middle-of-the pack, especially bookended as it is with a terrible opening episode and a messy, hacky finale.
Also: can we please, please, please put like a 10 year moratorium on universe-ending threats in Doctor Who? At the very least.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 2, 2024 12:55:09 GMT
Also: can we please, please, please put like a 10 year moratorium on universe-ending threats in Doctor Who? At the very least.Can we have something as self contained as Horror of Fang Rock again? That'd be nice. |
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Jul 6, 2024 23:47:50 GMT
Thanks to a forumer for sending this to me :
"Ncuti Gatwa is doing his first comic con convention at London comic con
£296 for the diamond pass
£125 for an standard autograph
£20 to talk to him
£95 for a standard photo
£140 green screen photoshoot"
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