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Post by number13 on Sept 20, 2019 12:46:05 GMT
3 Fugitive in TimeEnjoyed that, rather a 'classic Who' feel with all the usual elements and used well. This volume's been Dalek-free for too long so it was "good" to have them back. And I totally failed to spot the Dalek agent but that's nothing new for me!
Sometimes (like the 4DAs earlier this year) I've been totally spoiler-free to the extent of not even knowing what other characters were in a set. Lucky that wasn't true for these or I might not have survived the excitement of the extra scene at the end... Even expecting him to turn up, it's still quite a moment!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 12:26:01 GMT
Just started this set, listened to State of Bliss. It was OK, felt a bit like filler & didn't really amount to much.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2019 11:46:52 GMT
The Famished Lands. Well that was quite interesting, a nice mix of horror & humour. However... {Spoiler} The ending felt like it didn't have the courage to fully follow through on what would have been a satisfyingly downbeat ending, the decision to euthanize the entire population when shown the future conflict. It would have been a nice way to show how the 8th Doctor's methods don't always work within the Time War. This way also the story would have fit more within the story of the Time War, whereas for now it just seems like another episode with no real impact on the whole.
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mbt66
Chancellery Guard
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Post by mbt66 on Nov 20, 2019 18:05:09 GMT
I finally have gotten around to listening to this boxset.
To my mind a Time War set should make you wonder just what is happening and want to do a re-listen, so this is the first Eighth Doctor Time War set to make me say/think...โwait, what!?โ so for me is the best set, thus far.
However I did have a few little issues....
State of Bliss I loved the setup and how the story was being told, with the Doctor playing various roles in the narrative. However I really loved the notion that an older alternative Bliss would be the villain, manipulating the timeline of her younger self. It would have raised the character of Bliss a lot higher in my mind.
The Famished Land Just like the first story this didnโt go where I thought and hoped it would. A nice initial concept with some great elements and some funny lines. But, as has already been said, those skeletons didnโt make any sense and left me disappointed that we were denied flesh eating zombies! It would have allowed a perfect call back to Ravenous. Bliss: Theyโre ravenous. Doctor: Hardly, these only want to eat our flesh. Even without zombies I was surprised that there wasnโt a Ravenous comment.
Fugitive in Time It was a nice enough story and did a good job of setting up the concept of the final story in this set. Due to a limited cast the Dalek agent was fairly obvious, especially given that characters introduction, but that didnโt really detract. What did, was the nagging thought โwhat are Bliss and Tamasan wearing?โ Did they know what type of society they were crash landing into? If they did and were wearing appropriate attire why didnโt we hear Bliss complain about having to wear a skirt/dress!? I know it is a silly thing, but when you have Tamasan on the cover wearing clothing that would not convince anyone they are local it did distract me.
The War Valeyard They saved the best to last. What the writer did with the War Valeyard was unexpected, but so appropriate for who the character fundamentally is. Unlike the first two stories in this set the final one did not disappoint. This is the story that made me realise I was listening to a story set in the Time War and I wasnโt paying enough attention to it and even whilst I was listening to it I was looking forward to having to listen to it again! And just as an aside and to prove my distraction in the previous story was silly when dealing with audio - I really liked Nim. I donโt know how others pictured the character? But personally I saw her as an anthropomorphic Katsune (human fox). Although with a name like Nim(h) perhaps I should have pictured a Mouse/Human hybrid!?
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 1, 2020 16:41:55 GMT
Finally finished this one up. The War Valeyard was easily the highlight of the box. Biggest surprise to me is I walked away from this almost liking the character of Bliss.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jun 1, 2020 23:13:08 GMT
After further reflection, I donโt know what the point of the Time War strand with the 8th Doctor is. The sets are of the usual high quality and there are some really good individual stories but I think we are getting regular 8th Doctor with some added Time War and palace intrigue. I donโt think the stories are being told in a different enough way as to separate them from any of the other box sets of the past several years featuring 8. Maybe it is a problem of my expectations not being in synch with the stories David Richardson and company want to tell. Either way, Iโm left wondering if the best course of action in dealing with the Time War is to recast and bring in an early days version of the War Doctor. Others mileage may of course vary.
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Post by theillusiveman on Jun 2, 2020 1:07:28 GMT
After further reflection, I donโt know what the point of the Time War strand with the 8th Doctor is. The sets are of the usual high quality and there are some really good individual stories but I think we are getting regular 8th Doctor with some added Time War and palace intrigue. I donโt think the stories are being told in a different enough way as to separate them from any of the other box sets of the past several years featuring 8. Maybe it is a problem of my expectations not being in synch with the stories David Richardson and company want to tell. Either way, Iโm left wondering if the best course of action in dealing with the Time War is to recast and bring in an early days version of the War Doctor. Others mileage may of course vary. Honestly i think the issue is that 8's Pacifism and NOTD get in the way of really doing interesting stuff with 8 regarding the time war
then agian the only stories that i found enjoyable in the 8 Time War Series were The War Valeyard and Lies in Ruin
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Post by tuigirl on Jun 2, 2020 19:25:09 GMT
After further reflection, I donโt know what the point of the Time War strand with the 8th Doctor is. The sets are of the usual high quality and there are some really good individual stories but I think we are getting regular 8th Doctor with some added Time War and palace intrigue. I donโt think the stories are being told in a different enough way as to separate them from any of the other box sets of the past several years featuring 8. Maybe it is a problem of my expectations not being in synch with the stories David Richardson and company want to tell. Either way, Iโm left wondering if the best course of action in dealing with the Time War is to recast and bring in an early days version of the War Doctor. Others mileage may of course vary. Honestly i think the issue is that 8's Pacifism and NOTD get in the way of really doing interesting stuff with 8 regarding the time war
then agian the only stories that i found enjoyable in the 8 Time War Series were The War Valeyard and Lies in Ruin
Well, these stories are pretty much the best ones. Although "enjoyment" is the wrong word for describing Lies in Ruins. It is as enjoyable as having pins put into your ears. I could not sleep for two nights afterwards it had such an emotional impact on me. This should tell you how powerful it is.
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 2, 2021 19:40:53 GMT
My ascent through the Time War continues! I've been trying to pace myself through these few, final McGann stories I have remaining--but self control can be a difficult thing to master. So: thoughts and reactions. On State of Bliss: - I loved it when the TARDIS's started "materializing all over" the planet (whose name I will not even attempt to spell. Darryl-obia?). It touched on something that I recognize now as being a very under-utilized aspect of the Time War: much has been made about the Daleks and Time Lords becoming indistinguishable from one another, but for all the "Dalek Invasion" stories we've had, this is the first time I've seen a Time Lord invasion. And I loved it--I got chills--because the Time Lords come across as a much more credible threat. Part of this comes from, I think, the fact that the Daleks are largely predictable. We know what they will do: exterminate. But the Time Lords? Jesus. They could do anything. And even though in this story we already know what they'll do to the planet, because we saw it in the last set, that tension is still there. Definitely want to see more of this in the future.
- Speaking of the future, I remember seeing many people speculating/hoping that 8DTW4 would be the last entry in this range. I pushed back against that sentiment then, and am even more inclined to do so now. So far, I've found this range to be spectacular. While not every story has impressed me, each set has contained at least one that I would rank among the all-time greats. And in this set, that story is State of Bliss. Honestly, at this point, I'd be fine with the 8DTW range continuing on in perpetuity.
- I'm not the biggest fan of Bliss as a character (and I kinda think the idea of of a "permanent" companion is a mistake for this era, just fundamentally) but this story gives Rakhee Thrakar a whole lot to work with and she demonstrates some real skill. Companion-centric stories can be pretty hit-or-miss, but she knocks this one out of the park. So I'm stuck thinking the character should probably leave, while at the same time enjoying the actor's performance so much that I'd be very sad to see her leave. Such a dilemma....
- Also gotta sit back a moment and just bask in the sheer scale and ambition of this story. Big Finish seems to have a bad habit of hiring writers who want to tell stories that just should not be possible within the constraints of 1-hour runtimes and the audio format. So many moving parts! Yet, very often, these people manage to pull it off. I don't know how they do it, but I'm impressed. This is precisely the kind of the story that makes me think Doctor Who is at its very best in audio.
On The Famished Lands: - Oh my God I love McGann's Doctor so much. The line that stole the show for me? "And stop acting so frightened of me--you're the monsters here." Just tell me you could read that without hearing McGann's voice, and his exact inflection on every words. Just: perfect.
- Story-wise, though, this was a weird one. Hunger is one of those things that is... difficult to convey in an audio medium. All you can really do is have characters moan and say variations of, "Boy oh boy, I sure am hungry, yessir!" And... it just doesn't really work.
- And then there's the twist. Which was just... a little too underwhelming, I think? Especially considering the twist dealt with food--which means, just innately, that it's competing with Soylent Green.
- I do love skeleton armies, though. Just a personal thing. Fond memories of Diablo and Dungeon Siege and all that. I've heard there are skeletal armies in Total War: Warhammer 2, and this story certainly made me want to look into that....
On Fugitive in Time: - Another really good story! Who'd've thunk it, 'eh? The Time War range was supposed to be weak, they told me! Weak! Honestly this story reminded me a lot of The Invention of Death, though I'd be hard-pressed to say why, exactly. They just evoke a similar feeling in me. That feeling being: this is quintessential Doctor Who.
- That said, I don't think this story worked as well as it could have or should have. This is one of those cases, I think, where the presence of the Daleks detracts from the story--which should have been much more character-focused on Shonnath. Think how much more interesting this story could have been, had the Time Lords been the sole--an unequivocally so--"bad guys?" Early in the editing process, I think I would have advised narrowing the focus of the story to just the TARDIS team and Shonnath, with the ultimate climax of the story coming at the end, with the Doctor realizing that we was playing for the "wrong side" all along, and wound up being complicit in Shonnath's assassination. To really, you know, drive home that idea that the Time Lords are becoming something that the Doctor cannot abide or tolerate.
On The War Valeyard: - Time to maybe demonstrate my iconoclastic inclinations here... look, I'm sorry, but the Valeyard just does not work for me as a character, fundamentally, and none of his stories have done a single thing to change that. As such, I found this to be the weakest story of not just this set, but the entire range. So, I should probably explain myself....
- What it boils down to, I think, is that the Valeyard simply isn't sufficiently rounded as a character: he's enmeshed in too much idle mystery. Who is this guy? What are his goals? What motivates him? These are really basic, fundamental questions that need to be answered for any character, really, but when it comes to the Valeyard, all I have to operate on is, "evil future Doctor." Which is functionally meaningless: he may as well be a cartoon villain twirling his mustache.
- Admittedly, I've been putting off The Final Adventure, which I believe is a Valeyard story as well, and perhaps it will change my mind.
- That said, the performance was very good! This Valeyard-Doctor, in particular, felt very similar to the Warner-Doctor. And who couldn't love that? Though I'm not sure the ending for the character was fully earned... I just don't have enough sense of the Valeyard's great crimes to care about this self-imposed punishment. And also, is it really a punishment if the subject isn't actually aware that they're being punished? I dunno. It just didn't quite work for me.
- The ending was also a bit weird as it felt incongruous with the preceding story. The scale just... didn't work right for me. This never felt like a story that could involve the totality of the Time War, yet by the end... the Time War is over. The Valeyard did it, I guess, with the press of a button. It just feels... too easy, too inconsequential. I am also curious about the cliffhanger with the Dalek Time Strategist. Will this be one of those cliffhangers that is just ignored in the subsequent release, or designed that it could potentially slot into the beginning of some prior release if you squint, as is the case (I am told--I could never squint sufficiently) with the War Master sets? I'll be very curious to see whether or not 8DTW4 picks up immediately after The War Valeyard or not. It'll have to wait, though, as I'm down to just 8DTW4 and McGann's story in the Classic Doctors New Monsters sets before I've gone through the whole lot, and... I'm just not ready to live in a world without of queue of 8th Doctor stories to look forward to.
After finishing this set, it occurs to me that we really haven't seen the Daleks in the role of primary antagonists much in this range. Aside from the submarine story in 8DTW2, they've very much been peripheral to these stories, and often absent entirely. It's a bold choice, but I think it's paid of masterfully. I've thought long and hard about it, and including the Monthly Range, I think I'd have to say--at the end of the day--that the Time War sets are, in my opinion, the very best 8th Doctor range. Other ranges may have better individual stories, but when it comes to consistently good stories... the 8DTW sets are at the very top.
And in a more general sense, I'm very fond of how much more experimental and imaginative the Time War stories have been relative to other 8th Doctor tales. This is a range where literally anything can happen, and you can really see that the writers are having a lot of fun taking advantage of that freedom. It makes the stories an absolute, unfettered joy to listen to. But the shadow of that is that what few constraints they're still bound to feel increasingly conspicuous and contrived: specifically, the constant successes of the Doctor and Bliss. When the entire universe is embroiled in such violence and chaos, it's incredibly incongruous how stable their status quo is.
So... those are my thoughts. Apologies if it was confusing or annoying to read through... I really want to get my thoughts posted before they vanished from my memory--listening to this set was a lovely little Christmas present I gave myself--but I've been in very poor shape for the past few weeks, which in my case means lots of medication and little sleep, which as you can imagine has a fairly severe effect on my focus and memory. And creates an unfortunate tendency toward verbosity, which I am certain has not gone unnoticed.
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 3, 2021 10:36:49 GMT
My ascent through the Time War continues! I've been trying to pace myself through these few, final McGann stories I have remaining--but self control can be a difficult thing to master. So: thoughts and reactions. On State of Bliss: - I loved it when the TARDIS's started "materializing all over" the planet (whose name I will not even attempt to spell. Darryl-obia?). It touched on something that I recognize now as being a very under-utilized aspect of the Time War: much has been made about the Daleks and Time Lords becoming indistinguishable from one another, but for all the "Dalek Invasion" stories we've had, this is the first time I've seen a Time Lord invasion. And I loved it--I got chills--because the Time Lords come across as a much more credible threat. Part of this comes from, I think, the fact that the Daleks are largely predictable. We know what they will do: exterminate. But the Time Lords? Jesus. They could do anything. And even though in this story we already know what they'll do to the planet, because we saw it in the last set, that tension is still there. Definitely want to see more of this in the future.
- Speaking of the future, I remember seeing many people speculating/hoping that 8DTW4 would be the last entry in this range. I pushed back against that sentiment then, and am even more inclined to do so now. So far, I've found this range to be spectacular. While not every story has impressed me, each set has contained at least one that I would rank among the all-time greats. And in this set, that story is State of Bliss. Honestly, at this point, I'd be fine with the 8DTW range continuing on in perpetuity.
- I'm not the biggest fan of Bliss as a character (and I kinda think the idea of of a "permanent" companion is a mistake for this era, just fundamentally) but this story gives Rakhee Thrakar a whole lot to work with and she demonstrates some real skill. Companion-centric stories can be pretty hit-or-miss, but she knocks this one out of the park. So I'm stuck thinking the character should probably leave, while at the same time enjoying the actor's performance so much that I'd be very sad to see her leave. Such a dilemma....
- Also gotta sit back a moment and just bask in the sheer scale and ambition of this story. Big Finish seems to have a bad habit of hiring writers who want to tell stories that just should not be possible within the constraints of 1-hour runtimes and the audio format. So many moving parts! Yet, very often, these people manage to pull it off. I don't know how they do it, but I'm impressed. This is precisely the kind of the story that makes me think Doctor Who is at its very best in audio.
On The Famished Lands: - Oh my God I love McGann's Doctor so much. The line that stole the show for me? "And stop acting so frightened of me--you're the monsters here." Just tell me you could read that without hearing McGann's voice, and his exact inflection on every words. Just: perfect.
- Story-wise, though, this was a weird one. Hunger is one of those things that is... difficult to convey in an audio medium. All you can really do is have characters moan and say variations of, "Boy oh boy, I sure am hungry, yessir!" And... it just doesn't really work.
- And then there's the twist. Which was just... a little too underwhelming, I think? Especially considering the twist dealt with food--which means, just innately, that it's competing with Soylent Green.
- I do love skeleton armies, though. Just a personal thing. Fond memories of Diablo and Dungeon Siege and all that. I've heard there are skeletal armies in Total War: Warhammer 2, and this story certainly made me want to look into that....
On Fugitive in Time: - Another really good story! Who'd've thunk it, 'eh? The Time War range was supposed to be weak, they told me! Weak! Honestly this story reminded me a lot of The Invention of Death, though I'd be hard-pressed to say why, exactly. They just evoke a similar feeling in me. That feeling being: this is quintessential Doctor Who.
- That said, I don't think this story worked as well as it could have or should have. This is one of those cases, I think, where the presence of the Daleks detracts from the story--which should have been much more character-focused on Shonnath. Think how much more interesting this story could have been, had the Time Lords been the sole--an unequivocally so--"bad guys?" Early in the editing process, I think I would have advised narrowing the focus of the story to just the TARDIS team and Shonnath, with the ultimate climax of the story coming at the end, with the Doctor realizing that we was playing for the "wrong side" all along, and wound up being complicit in Shonnath's assassination. To really, you know, drive home that idea that the Time Lords are becoming something that the Doctor cannot abide or tolerate.
On The War Valeyard: - Time to maybe demonstrate my iconoclastic inclinations here... look, I'm sorry, but the Valeyard just does not work for me as a character, fundamentally, and none of his stories have done a single thing to change that. As such, I found this to be the weakest story of not just this set, but the entire range. So, I should probably explain myself....
- What it boils down to, I think, is that the Valeyard simply isn't sufficiently rounded as a character: he's enmeshed in too much idle mystery. Who is this guy? What are his goals? What motivates him? These are really basic, fundamental questions that need to be answered for any character, really, but when it comes to the Valeyard, all I have to operate on is, "evil future Doctor." Which is functionally meaningless: he may as well be a cartoon villain twirling his mustache.
- Admittedly, I've been putting off The Final Adventure, which I believe is a Valeyard story as well, and perhaps it will change my mind.
- That said, the performance was very good! This Valeyard-Doctor, in particular, felt very similar to the Warner-Doctor. And who couldn't love that? Though I'm not sure the ending for the character was fully earned... I just don't have enough sense of the Valeyard's great crimes to care about this self-imposed punishment. And also, is it really a punishment if the subject isn't actually aware that they're being punished? I dunno. It just didn't quite work for me.
- The ending was also a bit weird as it felt incongruous with the preceding story. The scale just... didn't work right for me. This never felt like a story that could involve the totality of the Time War, yet by the end... the Time War is over. The Valeyard did it, I guess, with the press of a button. It just feels... too easy, too inconsequential. I am also curious about the cliffhanger with the Dalek Time Strategist. Will this be one of those cliffhangers that is just ignored in the subsequent release, or designed that it could potentially slot into the beginning of some prior release if you squint, as is the case (I am told--I could never squint sufficiently) with the War Master sets? I'll be very curious to see whether or not 8DTW4 picks up immediately after The War Valeyard or not. It'll have to wait, though, as I'm down to just 8DTW4 and McGann's story in the Classic Doctors New Monsters sets before I've gone through the whole lot, and... I'm just not ready to live in a world without of queue of 8th Doctor stories to look forward to.
After finishing this set, it occurs to me that we really haven't seen the Daleks in the role of primary antagonists much in this range. Aside from the submarine story in 8DTW2, they've very much been peripheral to these stories, and often absent entirely. It's a bold choice, but I think it's paid of masterfully. I've thought long and hard about it, and including the Monthly Range, I think I'd have to say--at the end of the day--that the Time War sets are, in my opinion, the very best 8th Doctor range. Other ranges may have better individual stories, but when it comes to consistently good stories... the 8DTW sets are at the very top.
And in a more general sense, I'm very fond of how much more experimental and imaginative the Time War stories have been relative to other 8th Doctor tales. This is a range where literally anything can happen, and you can really see that the writers are having a lot of fun taking advantage of that freedom. It makes the stories an absolute, unfettered joy to listen to. But the shadow of that is that what few constraints they're still bound to feel increasingly conspicuous and contrived: specifically, the constant successes of the Doctor and Bliss. When the entire universe is embroiled in such violence and chaos, it's incredibly incongruous how stable their status quo is.
So... those are my thoughts. Apologies if it was confusing or annoying to read through... I really want to get my thoughts posted before they vanished from my memory--listening to this set was a lovely little Christmas present I gave myself--but I've been in very poor shape for the past few weeks, which in my case means lots of medication and little sleep, which as you can imagine has a fairly severe effect on my focus and memory. And creates an unfortunate tendency toward verbosity, which I am certain has not gone unnoticed.
This is a great analysis. I always love to read reviews from the other side, so to speak. And you explain yourself very well. I myself loved the Famished Lands, and even have the same reasons you do- I also love skeleton armies.... (maybe that is why I have finally given in and started a Warhammer Necron army...) yes, the science makes no sense whatsoever, but just the mental image of these guys and the sound effect is amazing! In general, the sound design of Famished Lands is great. Especially the green monkey scene had me laugh out loud (and this one could have been pretty silly in less competent hands).
And then I absolutely loved the Valeyard story and it was the first Time War story that had me having a WOW! effect. The performance was absolutely stunning. And I agree with your comparison with the Warner Doctor! Plus, I am a Sixie fan, and I adore Sixie's verbal battles with the Valeyard. Does the Valeyard make any sense on a philosophical level? Well, this is Doctor Who. By now, I am used to suspend my disbelief and just ride with the story.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 11:03:32 GMT
My ascent through the Time War continues! I've been trying to pace myself through these few, final McGann stories I have remaining--but self control can be a difficult thing to master. So: thoughts and reactions. On State of Bliss: - I loved it when the TARDIS's started "materializing all over" the planet (whose name I will not even attempt to spell. Darryl-obia?). It touched on something that I recognize now as being a very under-utilized aspect of the Time War: much has been made about the Daleks and Time Lords becoming indistinguishable from one another, but for all the "Dalek Invasion" stories we've had, this is the first time I've seen a Time Lord invasion. And I loved it--I got chills--because the Time Lords come across as a much more credible threat. Part of this comes from, I think, the fact that the Daleks are largely predictable. We know what they will do: exterminate. But the Time Lords? Jesus. They could do anything. And even though in this story we already know what they'll do to the planet, because we saw it in the last set, that tension is still there. Definitely want to see more of this in the future.
- Speaking of the future, I remember seeing many people speculating/hoping that 8DTW4 would be the last entry in this range. I pushed back against that sentiment then, and am even more inclined to do so now. So far, I've found this range to be spectacular. While not every story has impressed me, each set has contained at least one that I would rank among the all-time greats. And in this set, that story is State of Bliss. Honestly, at this point, I'd be fine with the 8DTW range continuing on in perpetuity.
- I'm not the biggest fan of Bliss as a character (and I kinda think the idea of of a "permanent" companion is a mistake for this era, just fundamentally) but this story gives Rakhee Thrakar a whole lot to work with and she demonstrates some real skill. Companion-centric stories can be pretty hit-or-miss, but she knocks this one out of the park. So I'm stuck thinking the character should probably leave, while at the same time enjoying the actor's performance so much that I'd be very sad to see her leave. Such a dilemma....
- Also gotta sit back a moment and just bask in the sheer scale and ambition of this story. Big Finish seems to have a bad habit of hiring writers who want to tell stories that just should not be possible within the constraints of 1-hour runtimes and the audio format. So many moving parts! Yet, very often, these people manage to pull it off. I don't know how they do it, but I'm impressed. This is precisely the kind of the story that makes me think Doctor Who is at its very best in audio.
On The Famished Lands: - Oh my God I love McGann's Doctor so much. The line that stole the show for me? "And stop acting so frightened of me--you're the monsters here." Just tell me you could read that without hearing McGann's voice, and his exact inflection on every words. Just: perfect.
- Story-wise, though, this was a weird one. Hunger is one of those things that is... difficult to convey in an audio medium. All you can really do is have characters moan and say variations of, "Boy oh boy, I sure am hungry, yessir!" And... it just doesn't really work.
- And then there's the twist. Which was just... a little too underwhelming, I think? Especially considering the twist dealt with food--which means, just innately, that it's competing with Soylent Green.
- I do love skeleton armies, though. Just a personal thing. Fond memories of Diablo and Dungeon Siege and all that. I've heard there are skeletal armies in Total War: Warhammer 2, and this story certainly made me want to look into that....
On Fugitive in Time: - Another really good story! Who'd've thunk it, 'eh? The Time War range was supposed to be weak, they told me! Weak! Honestly this story reminded me a lot of The Invention of Death, though I'd be hard-pressed to say why, exactly. They just evoke a similar feeling in me. That feeling being: this is quintessential Doctor Who.
- That said, I don't think this story worked as well as it could have or should have. This is one of those cases, I think, where the presence of the Daleks detracts from the story--which should have been much more character-focused on Shonnath. Think how much more interesting this story could have been, had the Time Lords been the sole--an unequivocally so--"bad guys?" Early in the editing process, I think I would have advised narrowing the focus of the story to just the TARDIS team and Shonnath, with the ultimate climax of the story coming at the end, with the Doctor realizing that we was playing for the "wrong side" all along, and wound up being complicit in Shonnath's assassination. To really, you know, drive home that idea that the Time Lords are becoming something that the Doctor cannot abide or tolerate.
On The War Valeyard: - Time to maybe demonstrate my iconoclastic inclinations here... look, I'm sorry, but the Valeyard just does not work for me as a character, fundamentally, and none of his stories have done a single thing to change that. As such, I found this to be the weakest story of not just this set, but the entire range. So, I should probably explain myself....
- What it boils down to, I think, is that the Valeyard simply isn't sufficiently rounded as a character: he's enmeshed in too much idle mystery. Who is this guy? What are his goals? What motivates him? These are really basic, fundamental questions that need to be answered for any character, really, but when it comes to the Valeyard, all I have to operate on is, "evil future Doctor." Which is functionally meaningless: he may as well be a cartoon villain twirling his mustache.
- Admittedly, I've been putting off The Final Adventure, which I believe is a Valeyard story as well, and perhaps it will change my mind.
- That said, the performance was very good! This Valeyard-Doctor, in particular, felt very similar to the Warner-Doctor. And who couldn't love that? Though I'm not sure the ending for the character was fully earned... I just don't have enough sense of the Valeyard's great crimes to care about this self-imposed punishment. And also, is it really a punishment if the subject isn't actually aware that they're being punished? I dunno. It just didn't quite work for me.
- The ending was also a bit weird as it felt incongruous with the preceding story. The scale just... didn't work right for me. This never felt like a story that could involve the totality of the Time War, yet by the end... the Time War is over. The Valeyard did it, I guess, with the press of a button. It just feels... too easy, too inconsequential. I am also curious about the cliffhanger with the Dalek Time Strategist. Will this be one of those cliffhangers that is just ignored in the subsequent release, or designed that it could potentially slot into the beginning of some prior release if you squint, as is the case (I am told--I could never squint sufficiently) with the War Master sets? I'll be very curious to see whether or not 8DTW4 picks up immediately after The War Valeyard or not. It'll have to wait, though, as I'm down to just 8DTW4 and McGann's story in the Classic Doctors New Monsters sets before I've gone through the whole lot, and... I'm just not ready to live in a world without of queue of 8th Doctor stories to look forward to.
After finishing this set, it occurs to me that we really haven't seen the Daleks in the role of primary antagonists much in this range. Aside from the submarine story in 8DTW2, they've very much been peripheral to these stories, and often absent entirely. It's a bold choice, but I think it's paid of masterfully. I've thought long and hard about it, and including the Monthly Range, I think I'd have to say--at the end of the day--that the Time War sets are, in my opinion, the very best 8th Doctor range. Other ranges may have better individual stories, but when it comes to consistently good stories... the 8DTW sets are at the very top.
And in a more general sense, I'm very fond of how much more experimental and imaginative the Time War stories have been relative to other 8th Doctor tales. This is a range where literally anything can happen, and you can really see that the writers are having a lot of fun taking advantage of that freedom. It makes the stories an absolute, unfettered joy to listen to. But the shadow of that is that what few constraints they're still bound to feel increasingly conspicuous and contrived: specifically, the constant successes of the Doctor and Bliss. When the entire universe is embroiled in such violence and chaos, it's incredibly incongruous how stable their status quo is.
So... those are my thoughts. Apologies if it was confusing or annoying to read through... I really want to get my thoughts posted before they vanished from my memory--listening to this set was a lovely little Christmas present I gave myself--but I've been in very poor shape for the past few weeks, which in my case means lots of medication and little sleep, which as you can imagine has a fairly severe effect on my focus and memory. And creates an unfortunate tendency toward verbosity, which I am certain has not gone unnoticed.
Now I know in a few years time I will probably eat my words BUT I am no great fan of the entire TIME WAR SAGA at all i have a fondness for TIME WAR 4 as I got a sense of scale.But I like your summation you have given it a lot of thought. I think for me it failed in that the HURT stories did not grab me at all there was the odd moment I thought nice touch but I in no way got a sense of a DOCTOR who had crossed the line in the sand. It was TIME WAR overload for me...I think but do not quote me on this I would have preferred Time War sets that was a combined set one story 8 ,one story `Gallifrey and one story Hurts Doctor and one Master I have no real hope of immediately going for the Hurt the junior sets either but who knows I may get surprised but in all honesty I do not ever reach for the CDs when I want entertainment and even sitting here I can only really say the standout stories from the entire range across all the box sets are Theseus and The Valeyard story and the only set I have really played more than twice is Time War 4 but I will still buy them in hope of something that will ignite a flame.Time War 4 did come close though...one day I may go WOW I have missed so much but at moment I would just like the entire TIME WAR to be forgotten and move on to other stuff As for the THE LAST ADVENTURE-oh it is far superior than any of the TIME WAR sets lol..oh am bad I know for my penance I will now go listen to a TIME WAR story...just one mind you ๐
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Post by tuigirl on Jan 3, 2021 11:11:39 GMT
Now I know in a few years time I will probably eat my words BUT I am no great fan of the entire TIME WAR SAGA at all i have a fondness for TIME WAR 4 as I got a sense of scale.But I like your summation you have given it a lot of thought. I think for me it failed in that the HURT stories did not grab me at all there was the odd moment I thought nice touch but I in no way got a sense of a DOCTOR who had crossed the line in the sand. It was TIME WAR overload for me...I think but do not quote me on this I would have preferred Time War sets that was a combined set one story 8 ,one story `Gallifrey and one story Hurts Doctor.I have no real hope of immediately going for the Hurt the junior sets either but who knows I may get surprised but in all honesty I do not ever reach for the CDs when I want entertainment and even sitting here I can only really say the standout stories from the entire range across all the box sets are Theseus and The Valeyard story and the only set I have really played more than twice is Time War 4 but I will still buy them in hope of something that will ignite a flame.Time War 4 did come close though...one day I may go WOW I have missed so much but at moment I would just like the entire TIME WAR to be forgotten and move on to other stuff As for the THE LAST ADVENTURE-oh it is far superior than any of the TIME WAR sets lol..oh am bad I know for my penance I will now go listen to a TIME WAR story...just one mind you ๐ I agree with you that the Time War stories were a bit hit and miss and they did not have an ideal start... and this includes John Hurt's series, as well.
I also felt a bit underwhelmed by the whole thing.
However, the War Master series and 8th Doctor Time War 4 are simply stunning.
I think the Time War per se is a great idea, however, what is often lacking is the execution.
But then I am a Warhammer fan and read the stories of grandmasters of military science fiction like Dan Abnett, and all the Big Finish efforts pale into nothingness in comparison. I will never understand why they have not convinced Dan to write a few Time War stories. He came back to write for the main range recently, so he is still around.
And I definitely agree with you on the Last Adventure.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 11:31:14 GMT
Now I know in a few years time I will probably eat my words BUT I am no great fan of the entire TIME WAR SAGA at all i have a fondness for TIME WAR 4 as I got a sense of scale.But I like your summation you have given it a lot of thought. I think for me it failed in that the HURT stories did not grab me at all there was the odd moment I thought nice touch but I in no way got a sense of a DOCTOR who had crossed the line in the sand. It was TIME WAR overload for me...I think but do not quote me on this I would have preferred Time War sets that was a combined set one story 8 ,one story `Gallifrey and one story Hurts Doctor.I have no real hope of immediately going for the Hurt the junior sets either but who knows I may get surprised but in all honesty I do not ever reach for the CDs when I want entertainment and even sitting here I can only really say the standout stories from the entire range across all the box sets are Theseus and The Valeyard story and the only set I have really played more than twice is Time War 4 but I will still buy them in hope of something that will ignite a flame.Time War 4 did come close though...one day I may go WOW I have missed so much but at moment I would just like the entire TIME WAR to be forgotten and move on to other stuff As for the THE LAST ADVENTURE-oh it is far superior than any of the TIME WAR sets lol..oh am bad I know for my penance I will now go listen to a TIME WAR story...just one mind you ๐ I agree with you that the Time War stories were a bit hit and miss and they did not have an ideal start... and this includes John Hurt's series, as well.
I also felt a bit underwhelmed by the whole thing.
However, the War Master series and 8th Doctor Time War 4 are simply stunning.
I think the Time War per se is a great idea, however, what is often lacking is the execution.
But then I am a Warhammer fan and read the stories of grandmasters of military science fiction like Dan Abnett, and all the Big Finish efforts pale into nothingness in comparison. I will never understand why they have not convinced Dan to write a few Time War stories. He came back to write for the main range recently, so he is still around.
And I definitely agree with you on the Last Adventure. I have begun again Theseus as it definitely held my interest and since am a bit more upbeat mentally things may change ๐ am not dissing the writers or anything more the whole TIME WAR arc...and as I say Time may prove me wrong about it all it was for me just a bit of TIME WAR/Dalek overkill I did enjoy the Josette Simon one too but hey can I remember a title and thatโs half the problem lol remembering titles lol
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2021 11:31:28 GMT
Now I know in a few years time I will probably eat my words BUT I am no great fan of the entire TIME WAR SAGA at all i have a fondness for TIME WAR 4 as I got a sense of scale.But I like your summation you have given it a lot of thought. I think for me it failed in that the HURT stories did not grab me at all there was the odd moment I thought nice touch but I in no way got a sense of a DOCTOR who had crossed the line in the sand. It was TIME WAR overload for me...I think but do not quote me on this I would have preferred Time War sets that was a combined set one story 8 ,one story `Gallifrey and one story Hurts Doctor.I have no real hope of immediately going for the Hurt the junior sets either but who knows I may get surprised but in all honesty I do not ever reach for the CDs when I want entertainment and even sitting here I can only really say the standout stories from the entire range across all the box sets are Theseus and The Valeyard story and the only set I have really played more than twice is Time War 4 but I will still buy them in hope of something that will ignite a flame.Time War 4 did come close though...one day I may go WOW I have missed so much but at moment I would just like the entire TIME WAR to be forgotten and move on to other stuff As for the THE LAST ADVENTURE-oh it is far superior than any of the TIME WAR sets lol..oh am bad I know for my penance I will now go listen to a TIME WAR story...just one mind you ๐ I agree with you that the Time War stories were a bit hit and miss and they did not have an ideal start... and this includes John Hurt's series, as well.
I also felt a bit underwhelmed by the whole thing.
However, the War Master series and 8th Doctor Time War 4 are simply stunning.
I think the Time War per se is a great idea, however, what is often lacking is the execution.
But then I am a Warhammer fan and read the stories of grandmasters of military science fiction like Dan Abnett, and all the Big Finish efforts pale into nothingness in comparison. I will never understand why they have not convinced Dan to write a few Time War stories. He came back to write for the main range recently, so he is still around.
And I definitely agree with you on the Last Adventure. I have begun again Theseus as it definitely held my interest and since am a bit more upbeat mentally things may change ๐ am not dissing the writers or anything more the whole TIME WAR arc...and as I say Time may prove me wrong about it all it was for me just a bit of TIME WAR/Dalek overkill I did enjoy one too but hey can I remember a title and thatโs half the problem lol remembering titles lol it was the Josette Simon one but that was in the Classic Doctors New Monsters lol BF wonโt be wanting me to review hahahaha but I think am pretty fair on my listens to all the other stuff
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Post by Kestrel on Jan 3, 2021 21:48:46 GMT
I'm definitely looking forward to 'The Last Adventure' quite a lot--which is precisely why I haven't listened to it yet. Gotta save it for a special occasion, ya' know? Regarding the 8DTW range... yeah, the quality can be kind of mixed--but each set always has at least one story that's really good. For me, the first volume is probably the strongest overall--and the conscript story (I forget the title) ranks among my very favorite McGann outings. It just has so much humor, so many great characters, and it still has pretty effective dramatic stakes. I haven't really listened to anything else that hits all of the 'high points' of a Doctor Who story like it, except for 'Doctor Who and the Pirates' in the Monthly range. ....I think for me it failed in that the HURT stories did not grab me at all there was the odd moment I thought nice touch but I in no way got a sense of a DOCTOR who had crossed the line in the sand. This is a sentiment I've seen fairly often, but I've never quite been able to agree with it. I think fans, in general, tend to really like the idea of an "evil Doctor," and this partly explains why characters like the Master, Valeyard and Dream Lord are so popular... but at the same time, you've got to accept that you're never going to get an actual Doctor who is evil. The whole point of the War Doctor, to me, is not that he totally abandoned all of his morals at birth, forsaking his own name before he'd spoken so much as a single word, but rather he lost the "right" to call himself the Doctor through his actions. And I never felt that we needed to see the War Doctor cross that line in the audio dramas... because we saw him cross it in the TV show, when he set out to annihilate his own people to end the war. THAT was the incident that betrayed his name, his promise, his morals. This is cemented in the special, I think, where all that the Hurt Doctor needs to do in order to redeem himself is undo that one action. If he doesn't destroy Gallifrey, then he gets to be the Doctor again. And this was Hurt's very first story as the Doctor. So I've always felt it weird that so many fans seem to want that characterization retconned.
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