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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jul 26, 2021 16:23:22 GMT
So I decided to watch The Waters of Mars last night and I picked up on something interesting. The Doctor describes the events of Planet of the Dead as happening "just recently". ADELAIDE: It can't be stopped. Don't die with us. DOCTOR: No, because someone told me just recently. They said I was going to die. They said he will knock four times, and I think I know what that means, and it doesn't mean right here, right now, because I don't hear anyone knocking, do you? A lot of stories commonly put between Planet and Waters don’t necessarily have to be there. Strictly speaking the only thing I can think of that is definitively in that gap is the IDW run which ends with the Doctor going to Mars, leading into Waters. Titan initially claimed their run started near Planet, but who knows if that still holds true. So stuff like Wedding of Sarah Jane, DWM run and I suspect most of the novels could be shuffled to either pre -Planet or post- Waters with relative ease. I mean I wouldn’t want to move The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith around. I know most of these can be moved but it’s just interesting that there’s this assumption that there’s a big sprawling gap there when really you wouldn’t realistically put all these companion gaps in there. The novels are difficult because they have the Doctor longing for a new companion which only really makes sense after Planet of the Dead. But then I think the gap is probably big enough to fit the novels anyway alongside the IDW comics. Yeah you’re right about the Titan stuff. To me it feels as though towards the end Year 3 they’d changed the placement to between Waters of Mars and The Day of the Doctor with events leading up towards DOTD rather than WoM as initially intended. However every article I can find interviewing Nick Abadzis who wrote the stories seems to push the Planet of the Dead/Waters of Mars placement. This definitely makes me think that the gap between Waters of Mars and End of Time is a lot bigger than we might think and that it’s the best place for new companions. Particularly as the cafe scene in End of Time doesn’t really allow for new companions prior to that. |
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Post by sherlock on Jul 26, 2021 16:41:54 GMT
A lot of stories commonly put between Planet and Waters don’t necessarily have to be there. Strictly speaking the only thing I can think of that is definitively in that gap is the IDW run which ends with the Doctor going to Mars, leading into Waters. Titan initially claimed their run started near Planet, but who knows if that still holds true. So stuff like Wedding of Sarah Jane, DWM run and I suspect most of the novels could be shuffled to either pre -Planet or post- Waters with relative ease. I mean I wouldn’t want to move The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith around. I know most of these can be moved but it’s just interesting that there’s this assumption that there’s a big sprawling gap there when really you wouldn’t realistically put all these companion gaps in there. The novels are difficult because they have the Doctor longing for a new companion which only really makes sense after Planet of the Dead. But then I think the gap is probably big enough to fit the novels anyway alongside the IDW comics. Yeah you’re right about the Titan stuff. To me it feels as though towards the end Year 3 they’d changed the placement to between Waters of Mars and The Day of the Doctor with events leading up towards DOTD rather than WoM as initially intended. However every article I can find interviewing Nick Abadzis who wrote the stories seems to push the Planet of the Dead/Waters of Mars placement. This definitely makes me think that the gap between Waters of Mars and End of Time is a lot bigger than we might think and that it’s the best place for new companions. Particularly as the cafe scene in End of Time doesn’t really allow for new companions prior to that. See his conversation with Wilf in the cafe makes it seem like the things going wrong (once upon a time just meaning Waters of Mars but now referring to the whole of TLV) is kinda recent to me. Also in The Eleventh Hour the Doctor claims he’s been travelling alone for a while when he’s inviting Amy aboard (though he could be lying since he also doesn’t tell her about his suspicions regarding the crack’s impact on her life). So I don’t think the Doctor had that many travels between TLV and The End of Time.
I could see the DWM run fitting reasonably well into the Waters- End gap as the passage of time there doesn’t seem that great since the Doctor spends most of it trying and failing to get Majenta to one place. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jul 26, 2021 17:14:57 GMT
WILF: Yeah, how about you? Who have you got now?
DOCTOR: No one. Travelling alone. I thought it was better. But I did some things. It went wrong. I need
(The Doctor starts crying.)
WILF: Oh, my word. I'm sorry.
My take:
So after he lost Donna, he thought it’d be better if he travelled alone. But then this all backfired on him when Waters of Mars and TLV occurred and he realised that he’d gone too far and he does need someone. He’s summoned by Ood Sigma and realises his time is up, almost treated his death as a consequence for his actions as the Time Lord Victorious.
So he runs. Because as he’s so fond of saying, he doesn’t want to go. Maybe he does pick up new companions and have whole new adventures to try and put off his upcoming fate. I mean how long did it take Five to get back to Amsterdam, and all he had waiting for him there was the wrath of Tegan. He distracts himself for a time with new friends and adventures, deliberately avoiding his summons, perhaps even thinking if he ignores it long enough and makes amends for TLV he won’t have “to go”.
But eventually he’s alone again and knows that he can’t run anymore and has to face his fate. So when Wilf asks him in the cafe if he’s got anyone, he just breaks down. Because if he had someone, maybe the whole Time Lord Victorious situation would never have happened.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2021 17:22:46 GMT
I have to agree with Sherlock, of all the gaps i feel they should be the smallest one between waters and end of time. Not that there isn’t a gap, obviously there is but i like to feel the doctor is going into the end of time still fairly wounded by waters/TLV although he has clearly recovered somewhat.
Any way you look at it, the tenth doctor wasn’t supposed to have a companion after donna from what we see on screen. He travels alone. Any companions introduced is going to be a fudge and depending on what you count he has already had several in that gap so i just let it be. It makes more sense putting large gaps before waters as there is excess baggage after waters which makes it more of a pain to set stories there
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Post by sherlock on Jul 26, 2021 18:04:19 GMT
So having thought about some more this afternoon, I think my current take on the post-Series 4 era is-
IDW: The Forgotten
Ten & River: Expiry Dating
The Sontaran Games
DWA (Heather & Wolfie)
The Next Doctor
Dalek Universe
DWM (Majenta Pryce)
Ten & River: Precious Annihilation
Planet of the Dead
2009 novels
The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith
Ten & River: Ghosts
IDW
The Waters of Mars
TLV
Out of Time 1
The Shattered Hourglass
Dreamland
DWA (post-Heather)
The Day of the Doctor
Echoes of Extinction
The Advent of Fear
The Doctor on My Shoulder
The End of Time
I don’t know enough about The Darksmith Legacy or Titan (other than its original, possibly discarded, intent) to really to put them anywhere. The latter two of Ten & River are pretty arbitrary, just to spread them out a bit.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jul 26, 2021 18:17:54 GMT
So having thought about some more this afternoon, I think my current take on the post-Series 4 era is- IDW: The ForgottenTen & River: Expiry DatingThe Sontaran GamesDWA (Heather & Wolfie) The Next DoctorDalek Universe DWM (Majenta Pryce) Ten & River: Precious AnnihilationPlanet of the Dead2009 novels
The Wedding of Sarah Jane SmithTen & River: GhostsIDW The Waters of MarsTLV Out of Time 1The Shattered Hourglass
Dreamland
DWA (post-Heather)
The Day of the DoctorEchoes of Extinction
The Advent of FearThe Doctor on My ShoulderThe End of TimeI don’t know enough about The Darksmith Legacy or Titan (other than its original, possibly discarded, intent) to really to put them anywhere. The latter two of Ten & River are pretty arbitrary, just to spread them out a bit. The Darksmith Legacy’s only explicit placement is a reference to the BBC Novel ‘Martha in the Mirror’ so it’s at least after Voyage of the Damned. Although there is a reference to the TARDIS being able to keep out an army of Pyroviles suggesting it’s after Fires of Pompeii too. It’s a quest style arc where he’s thrown in with a new companion for the purposes of the quest. The only issue is that he expects to continue travelling with her at the end but she refuses. So it doesn’t gel too well with the specials in that regard. Titan begins with the Doctor initially rejecting Gabby due to having a bad experience with losing friends recently. But when she says “no song should end too soon” he changes his mind and lets her travel with him. Initially just for one trip but then extends it. Gabby ends up seeing visions of Ood speaking their prophecy from The End of Time. {Spoiler}
Eventually however the Ood Gabby is seeing is revealed to be the Moment, trying to communicate with her. However the Moment is struggling to get the interface right and that’s why it appeared as an Ood. So basically the Moment has crossed the time stream and is interfering with Gabby’s life in order to ensure that the Tenth Doctor's “song doesn’t end too soon” and interrupt the thing she’s in the middle of (saving Gallifrey / DOTD) So I don’t really think the Titan comics work anywhere except either between Planet of the Dead and The Waters of Mars or between The Waters of Mars and Day of the Doctor. |
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Post by shallacatop on Jul 26, 2021 19:28:34 GMT
Yeah, the Titan Comics are an odd one. The original placements were sound when Year One was out (the same with the Eleventh Doctor’s run too), but as they’ve developed over time and decided to dwell on The Day of the Doctor, they feel like they should be placed closer to that.
I’d put them between Planet of the Dead and The Waters of Mars. I feel as though The Waters of Mars and The Day of the Doctor needs to avoid any long running companions or arcs. Now we have Time Lord Victorious, Echoes of Extinction, The Shattered Hourglass, Out of Time(s), etc. I feel the stories should either be quite standalone, delve into the Doctor repenting for the events of TWOM / TLV and/or pushing the Doctor towards his fate in The End of Time.
I don’t think you’ll ever be able to completely reconcile everything during that Specials year simply because of the way the TV episodes pan out. Donna’s fate is a running theme through them and that clashes with the Doctor having companions. You get some that work better than others; Dalek Universe and the Majenta stories force them with the Doctor and the events of those arcs. That’s a contrast with Gabby, Cindy, Noobis, etc. in the Titan run.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2021 0:10:26 GMT
Hang on, Rose the Cat is canon but "Dimensions of Time" isn't? Yes. The Wiki’s validity rules are pretty much entirely arbitrary at this point. An episode of Thunderbirds has recently become valid cos apparently a picture of a Dalek appears at one point (I’ve never spotted it). Yeah, neither have I. Looks to have been in The Man from MI5. The image features after a character has been shot no less than six times in the back as he's falling off his chair. The assassin skims through it and other magazines like it when searching for the hidden papers. From the brief glimpse, maybe a frame or two at most, it looks to be a copy of TV21. The paper ancestor of the A21 report that comes in the mail with subscriptions to the Gerry Anderson site. If you managed to snag the recent Daleks! reprint from DWM, you'll likely have that page. Nice detail on the part of the model makers. The design was always full of little nods like that and good to know that some things are destined to return to print (if they don't, what at terrible waste, it goes up in a fireball). I think, though... Yeah, take it with a pinch of salt. Much like Lady Penelope visiting the cast of Dr Who and the Daleks', working in the 2060s, rather than the, erm, 1960s. Maybe this is part of some elaborate scheme to get us rewatching Thunderbirds? Because, if it is, it seems to be working!  (On a more serious side note: I've often wondered why the wikia doesn't have a dedicated section under "Notes" for "Intertextuality". We bump into it often enough in Who, from Quatermass to The Avengers, that it would be right at home.) |
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Post by Digi on Jul 27, 2021 2:02:18 GMT
So I decided to watch The Waters of Mars last night and I picked up on something interesting. The Doctor describes the events of Planet of the Dead as happening "just recently". ADELAIDE: It can't be stopped. Don't die with us. DOCTOR: No, because someone told me just recently. They said I was going to die. They said he will knock four times, and I think I know what that means, and it doesn't mean right here, right now, because I don't hear anyone knocking, do you? How does a millennia-old time traveler define "recently"? |
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 27, 2021 14:24:00 GMT
Reading The Taking of Chelsea 426 and I thought it was interesting that the Doctor contemplates The Majestic Hotel in Paris, 1922. He says he’s had enough of hotels and goes for pot luck, but I quite like that the TARDIS takes him to Paris anyway and leads into Out of Time 2: The Gates of Hell… also written by David Llewellyn!
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 31, 2021 10:31:15 GMT
Reading The Taking of Chelsea 426 and I thought it was interesting that the Doctor contemplates The Majestic Hotel in Paris, 1922. He says he’s had enough of hotels and goes for pot luck, but I quite like that the TARDIS takes him to Paris anyway and leads into Out of Time 2: The Gates of Hell… also written by David Llewellyn! Just had a relisten to The Gates of Hell and Ten does mention that he was heading for Paris, 1922! Nice bit of continuity there and perhaps suggests that Chelsea 426 should come just before Gates of Hell. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Oct 13, 2021 11:36:17 GMT
Just finished Dalek Universe 3. It was amazing. {Spoiler}
So the Doctor ends up inviting Anya to travel with him. He sort of doesn’t intend it until the very last minute when he’s like “what the hell, come with me”
But they end up getting separated and Anya stays in the Movellan War era. The Doctor tries to go back for Anya but is stuck on his side of the Time War and isn’t able to.
He then returns to the TARDIS and decides to visit Elizabeth I in 1562, meaning this in fact leads directly into The Day of the Doctor.
So there’s no cliffhanger for another set or anything, it’s all tied up.
I do hope that they reunite the Doctor and Anya though. Particularly as The Day of the Doctor provides the perfect opportunity for this to happen. |
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Post by sherlock on Oct 13, 2021 12:15:09 GMT
{Spoiler}
I’m not satisfied with the timeline placement. I really could not see a post-Waters of Mars Ten treating the past timeline with the reverence Ten does in Dalek Universe. I don’t think he could resist the temptation to change things. It feels like a writer chucking in a reference for the sake of a reference.
Ah well, that’s where Big Finish have definitively put it. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Oct 13, 2021 12:25:19 GMT
{Spoiler}
I’m not satisfied with the timeline placement. I really could not see a post-Waters of Mars Ten treating the past timeline with the reverence Ten does in Dalek Universe. I don’t think he could resist the temptation to change things. It feels like a writer chucking in a reference for the sake of a reference.
Ah well, that’s where Big Finish have definitively put it. {Spoiler}
I mean, he’s kinda learned his lesson by the end of TLV though hasn’t he?
Like the whole deal with Adelaide was bad enough and then the stuff with the Kotturuh took things even further and after Eight and Nine got involved I just can’t really see after all that, the Doctor going “what the hell, third time lucky” |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Oct 13, 2021 13:57:09 GMT
Thinking about it some more and letting it set in {Dalek Universe 3 / other recent 10th Doctor releases }
I actually think Dalek Universe works really well placed between The Waters of Mars and The Day of the Doctor.
I mean Waters of Mars and TLV pretty much explore the concept of what would happen if the Doctor tried to change things and I guess whether you believe that was done well or not it’s all pretty much resolved by the end and wrapped with the Doctor basically agreeing that he was wrong.
And then Echoes of Extinction, which occurs at some point after Day of the Doctor only serves to confirm this. You know like the Doctor absolutely regrets what he did to the Kotturuh and you get the impression he’d take it back if that were even possible.
Shortly after Waters of Mars and TLV we’ve got Out of Time. The Doctor has come to the Cathedral of Contemplation and he’s at a crossroads. He knows he should answer Ood Sigma’s summons but he doesn’t want to go. He has a heart to heart with the Fourth Doctor who recommends he takes on a new companion but Ten is reluctant. Nevertheless he decides to continue delaying his fate.
Then not long after we have Dalek Universe, where he is reunited with none other than the Fourth Doctor’s lost companion, Anya Kingdom. And we can see this as featuring a Doctor who has learned his lesson and refuses to meddle even when given ample opportunity to do things such as save Rose or warn Gallifrey. He’s seen the consequences of doing things like that, he’s still putting off what he feels is his punishment for that and he simply knows better now.
He mentions in The Triumph of Davros that he’s not taking Anya with him because he has things to do in his own time. This presumably means his trip to the Ood Sphere. But then he has a heart to heart and is told he’s a good man and learns a few things about himself.
So he decides to invite Anya along with him. It’s not to be, but the sentiment counts. He’s decided instead of going to his fate he can be the Doctor again and travel with friends and be happy. So he goes off to meet up with Elizabeth I in 1562 leading into DOTD where he finally gets to save Gallifrey even if he won’t remember it.
So now we have a much happier Tenth Doctor, who’s recovered from the events of Waters of Mars and is now even willing to potentially take on new companions at a push but his fate is always lurking around the corner.
Just one last party perhaps? |
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Post by shallacatop on Oct 13, 2021 15:48:20 GMT
I think the reference is shoehorned in for the sake of it and is quite clumsily done; fanjodrell of the worst kind. However, I think it does make a lot of sense and I do like the placement a lot, though don’t think it was necessarily intended to pan out as nice as themeddlingmonk has laid out. Also from the Doctor’s perspective it would make sense for him to seek out River too, a la The Day of the Doctor novel, given the events of The First Son. It does make you wonder where or how the team were working off The Next Doctor - Planet of the Dead placement! |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Oct 13, 2021 16:20:28 GMT
I think the reference is shoehorned in for the sake of it and is quite clumsily done; fanjodrell of the worst kind. However, I think it does make a lot of sense and I do like the placement a lot, though don’t think it was necessarily intended to pan out as nice as themeddlingmonk has laid out. Also from the Doctor’s perspective it would make sense for him to seek out River too, a la The Day of the Doctor novel, given the events of The First Son. It does make you wonder where or how the team were working off The Next Doctor - Planet of the Dead placement! I almost suspect that might’ve been a white lie on Dorney’s part to keep the true placement a secret. Considering the implications the placement has for the context of a lot of the Doctor’s decision in the series and what happens next. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Oct 13, 2021 21:48:50 GMT
Timeline updated {Tenth Doctor TV/BF/TLV Chronology }
The Parting of the Ways
Born Again
The Christmas Invasion
New Earth
Tooth and Claw
School Reunion
The Girl in the Fireplace
Rise of the Cybermen / The Age of Steel
Infamy of the Zaross
Sword of the Chevalier
Cold Vengeance
The Taste of Death
The Idiot's Lantern
The Impossible Planet / The Satan Pit
Love and Monsters
Fear Her
Army of Ghosts / Doomsday
The Runaway Bride
Smith and Jones
The Shakespeare Code
Gridlock
Daleks in Manhattan / Evolution of the Daleks
Backtrack
The Lazarus Experiment
42
The Infinite Quest
Human Nature / The Family of Blood
Blink
Utopia / The Sound of Drums / Last of the Time Lords
Time Crash
Voyage of the Damned
Hounded
Death in the New Forest
The Skies of New Earth
Free Speech
The Gates of Hell
Partners in Crime
The Fires of Pompeii
Planet of the Ood
Death's Deal
The Sontaran Strategem / The Poison Sky
The Doctor's Daughter
The Unicorn and the Wasp
Technophobia
Time Reaver
Death and the Queen
Silence in the Library / Forest of the Dead
Out of the World
Spinvasion
The Sorcerer of Albion
The Chiswick Cuckoos
In the Blood
Wild Pastures
No Place
One Mile Down
The Creeping Death
Midnight
Turn Left
The Stolen Earth / Journey's End
Expiry Dating
Churchill Victorious
The Cats of New Cairo
Zero Space
Collision Course
Soul Music
The Next Doctor
Precious Annihilation
Planet of the Dead
Ghosts
The Wedding of Sarah Jane Smith
A Brave New World
The Waters of Mars
What the TARDIS thought of "Time Lord Victorious"
The Knight, The Fool and The Dead
Tales from the Dark Times
The Minds of Magnox
All Flesh is Grass
Out of Time
The Shattered Hourglass
Dreamland
Buying Time
The Wrong Woman
House of Kingdom
Cycle of Destruction
The Trojan Dalek
The Lost
The First Son
The Dalek Defence
The Triumph of Davros
The Day of the Doctor
Echoes of Extinction
The Edge of Reality
Last Chance
The End of Time
The Jago & Litefoot Revival
The End of Time |
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Post by shallacatop on Oct 14, 2021 19:36:21 GMT
The Edge of Reality The Tenth Doctor is from around the Specials era. He references River and picks up a companion called Emer (who’s an AI that helps you throughout the game and Thirteen puts her in a synthetic body in the end) at the end, which would imply it’s set towards the end of his tenure.
There’s also a lovely sequence set in an alternate reality where the Doctor stays with Reinette and they have children and he tells them tales of his previous lives, etc. |
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Oct 15, 2021 15:21:39 GMT
On the subject of Dalek Universe, where are we on placement with it in relation to the Doctor jumping time tracks to the pre-Time War past in Prisoner of the Daleks? Same as before or with any alteration? I know that Prisoner left the exact reason why such a thing happened fairly open to interpretation at the time. {Dalek Universe 3: The Triumph of Davros}
The Doctor encounters a Supreme Dalek and makes a comment along the lines of saying that he’s encountered a lot of Supreme( Dalek)s lately.
At first that line kinda confused me because I was still in the head space that this is early specials and the only Supreme Dalek he would’ve encountered was in Journey's End.
But of course it’s then revealed that the story is set immediately before DOTD and I then realised that oh yeah there are Supreme Daleks in both Prisoner of the Daleks and Out of Time 1.
So a lovely little bit of continuity there. |
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