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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 11:37:24 GMT
I'd wanted Peter since 2005 so to finally get him was a dream that hasn't disappointed. I daresay there will be plenty of Who fans who would feel that way about Kris and he'd be top of their list. On this thread, somewhere, I posted the YouGov poll interims that suggested Kris was certainly the top choice with the public based on their poll but it's still just fun conjecture. It's pretty exciting that we still don't have a name - I really hope we can get through Series 10 without a reveal. They've done well to keep it a secret this long. In fact, the production team seem to be doing a good job of revealing details about this series as it goes along, which maintains a certain degree of interest - I just wish that resulted in stronger ratings. It's disappointing to see such a great series, with such a lot of buzz about it, watched by only around 4 million viewers. Anyway, that's for a different thread, perhaps! *clap on* New thread. Audience figures up from An Unearthly Child to Death in Heaven can be found here. There's been a lot of tabloid gossip regarding the "ratings slump" to roughly four million in the Twelfth Doctor's era, following a decline from the six to eight billion for non-event stories seen witnessed during David Tennant and Matt Smith's tenures on the programme. For contrast, the most recent series' four million viewing figure mark roughly matches that of classic Who's post-hiatus period ( The Mysterious Planet opened with 4.3 million). Now, we're all aware that ratings do not automatically equal quality. Nor that low ratings are signs of an impending cancellation, no matter how much the tabloids may try to push it. However, there has nevertheless still been a dip in average ratings during the 2013-2015 period (not counting The Return of Doctor Mysterio as it is a one-off for 2016). Again, nothing to freak out about. Nothing to chain yourself to the railings over, but it does raise a very interesting question: What do people currently believe is or has been causing the recent "slump"?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 11:49:57 GMT
I'd think the Beeb would be delighted with 4 billion. You're talking overnights which mean nothing - the Smile ratings are at 6 million when taking 7 day catchup into account. We don't get the "final" figure until 28 days later. The Pilot got 6.68m again without the final figure - higher than quite a few of Matt SMith's stories in Series 7. So, sure, the ratings are down from the show's peak with Tennant's last 2 years but it's still getting 6mill at least and beating a successful show like Mrs Brown. The show is in no danger whatsoever, it's a marketing juggernaut that the Beeb own 100% unlike, say, Top Gear. Matt Smith lost 2 million viewers in the 3 weeks between Bells Of St ohn and Hide. TWO MILLION. Yet that wasn't a "slump" or a "crisis". Why? Because the tabloids never called it one. Don't let redtops interpret facts for you and control the narrative.
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Post by mark687 on May 3, 2017 11:52:48 GMT
I think Who is still an odd show in the general public and media perception, I mean everyone watches TV on Catch-Up these days and yet if it looses live viewers each week. the media are going "Oh its on its last legs it needs reinvention", no other show gets this debate.
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mark687
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aztec
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Post by aztec on May 3, 2017 11:54:30 GMT
Could be any number of things:
- Casual viewers simply becoming bored with the show-140(ish?) episodes over 12 years is a huge huge amount by UK standards and some of those who watch the show more casually may no longer feel it is very fresh or exciting, despite RTD ad Moffat's best efforts over the years to experiment with the format there's only so many types of stories that you can do with the budget and time slot, almost every major show still running has lost lots of viewers over the same period so it may simply be a case of the show reaching its natural peak of popularity, add in catch up viewings and the show isn't that far off the heights of the Tennant era (the much hyped 10 million an episode figure was only an occasional occurrence, who has had steady ratings for years)
-Changing viewing habits, I generally make sure to watch Who live but it can sometimes be a week or more before I get round to watching episodes, in the age of streaming and record able digiboxes overnight ratings aren't quite as important or demonstrative of popularity as they used to be.
- The year long break might have damaged the show's visibility and reach to certain demographics, IIRC series 9 had the highest viewing figures of New Who so far on BBC America, but the figures have fallen by around half for Series 10 so far, many casual viewers may have lost interest in the show in its absence or simply weren't aware it was coming back.
- The darker tone of the Capaldi episodes and the move to a darker, snarkier angrier Doctor may have alienated viewers who grew up with the Tennant/Smith episodes and weren't used to the more alien nature of the Classic Doctors. Capaldi's Doctor was deliberately written to be more unlikable and closed off emotionally in his first series, gradually thawing and mellowing over time into a much warmer, more confident figure some viewers may have been put off by this approach- I'd argue that although Tennant/Smith had character development they arrived pretty much fully formed and were much more 'human' in their character so it was arguably easier to understand and like their Doctors, I personally much prefer the gradual development and unpredictable nature of Capaldi's Doctor...but if you are tuning in for 45 minutes of family friendly escapism and laughs I could see why the introspective darkness might not appeal.
- Although Moffat has made commendable efforts to experiment and change the format of his stories each series (which might actually be a problem-with the RTD series it very much followed a set formula so viewers could reasonably expect what was coming) he does, after so many scripts as a writer fall victim to his own tropes and biases, it's quite easy to tell what is and what isn't a Moffat script people may simply be bored with his approach to Who.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 12:00:15 GMT
I think Who is still an odd show in the general public and media perception, I mean everyone watches TV on Catch-Up these days and yet if it looses live viewers each week. the media are going "Oh its on its last legs it needs reinvention", no other show gets this debate. Regards mark687 I agree. Only Who fans seem gullible enough to buy into it. Eastenders ratings are wayyy less than they were a decade ago. No-one has ever even thought about mentioning it might be in trouble. When was the last "Corrie might be cancelled" post you saw online? Never. I think too many fans seem to think we're constantly heading for another 1989 with zero evidence. We're getting the showrunner of maybe the most talked about and popular drama of the decade joining Doctor Who, a string of top tier British TV talent mentioned for the role to replace the BAFTA winning incumbent and it got renewed two series in advance. Other shows should love to have "slumps" like this.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 12:02:23 GMT
Firstly, I would say that newspaper reports about Doctor Who ratings slumps have been on and off since 'The Idiots Lantern' (a headline entitled something like 'Where have all the viewers gone?'). It's also worth remembering that the much lauded 'Parting of the Ways' finale to Chris Eccleston's series - the series that was deemed popular enough to commission further series - 'only' reached about 6.2 million. Consolidated figures for the latest episode, 'Thin Ice' will likely only be half a million below that. Selective example? Possibly!
I hate to say it, but I feel that an older, less 'sexy' Doctor, who - initially at least - was difficult to warm to, is probably the reason. Like it or not, and I don't, some have compared Peter Capaldi's Doctor to that of Colin Baker, in that he simply isn't catching on. I don't agree with this, but I recognise similarities. If we are to run with that, then Kris Marshall - or whoever takes over - could then be seen as the Sylvester McCoy Doctor for modern times. Or in other words, he is a last chance for the ratings to rise. Again, not saying I neccessarily agree with this, but it is one way of looking at things.
The facts about Doctor Who selling to other countries and therefore will not be cancelled, was also the case back in the 80's, a period throughout which, Doctor Who's selling abroad actually grew. However, the BBC has a 'duty' to provide for viewers of the UK more than abroad, and if those viewers would sooner watch whatever light-hearted gameshow, or 'talent-scouring' circus is on the other side, then a cheaper alternative could be brought into replace Doctor Who.
My personal view is that the online forums (NOT this one) and Facebook spouts relentless negativity that probably doesn't do the public perception of Doctor Who any favours. Endless complaints because Missy is not the Rani, that Captain Jack hasn't returned, that award-winning writer Steven Moffat can't write, that Chibnall will be 'even worse', that the Daleks are in it too much, that Capaldi is too old, that Clara was rubbish, that Bill is 'too PC' (a viewpoint made a few times on Facebook regarding events in 'Thin Ice'). Oh, the list of wearied complaints from the armchair hardcore 'critics' goes on ... and on slow news days, tabloids turn to such public forums/arenas for their stories.
Sylvester McCoy once said that the fans helped kill the show. I think he was right. It might even happen again.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on May 3, 2017 12:03:31 GMT
Even if Who is cancelled again (it will be eventually, all shows have a natural shelf life and cancelling it whilst it's still popular and reasonably fresh rather than limping on to try and make money would be a better move i.m.o) it will never truly die, the franchise will live on in audios, comics and books like it did before.
The audience and exposure is much wider today than it was in 1989 and I wouldn't expect another 9/16 year hiatus.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on May 3, 2017 12:11:11 GMT
Firstly, I would say that newspaper reports about Doctor Who ratings slumps have been on and off since 'The Idiots Lantern' (a headline entitled something like 'Where have all the viewers gone?'). It's also worth remembering that the much lauded 'Parting of the Ways' finale to Chris Eccleston's series - the series that was deemed popular enough to commission further series - 'only' reached about 6.2 million. Consolidated figures for the latest episode, 'Thin Ice' will likely only be half a million below that. Selective example? Possibly! I hate to say it, but I feel that an older, less 'sexy' Doctor, who - initially at least - was difficult to warm to, is probably the reason. Like it or not, and I don't, some have compared Peter Capaldi's Doctor to that of Colin Baker, in that he simply isn't catching on. I don't agree with this, but I recognise similarities. If we are to run with that, then Kris Marshall - or whoever takes over - could then be seen as the Sylvester McCoy Doctor for modern times. Or in other words, he is a last chance for the ratings to rise. Again, not saying I neccessarily agree with this, but it is one way of looking at things. The facts about Doctor Who selling to other countries and therefore will not be cancelled, was also the case back in the 80's, a period throughout which, Doctor Who's selling abroad actually grew. However, the BBC has a 'duty' to provide for viewers of the UK more than abroad, and if those viewers would sooner watch whatever light-hearted gameshow, or 'talent-scouring' circus is on the other side, then a cheaper alternative could be brought into replace Doctor Who. My personal view is that the online forums (NOT this one) and Facebook spouts relentless negativity that probably doesn't do the public perception of Doctor Who any favours. Endless complaints because Missy is not the Rani, that Captain Jack hasn't returned, that award-winning writer Steven Moffat can't write, that Chibnall will be 'even worse', that the Daleks are in it too much, that Capaldi is too old, that Clara was rubbish, that Bill is 'too PC' (a viewpoint made a few times on Facebook regarding events in 'Thin Ice'). Oh, the list of wearied complaints from the armchair hardcore 'critics' goes on ... and on slow news days, tabloids turn to such public forums/arenas for their stories. Sylvester McCoy once said that the fans helped kill the show. I think he was right. It might even happen again. I agree with this (though personally I actually warmed to Capaldi's Doctor immediately, it took me a whole series to get used to Smith...what that says about my personality I don't know...) New Who may ultimately end up being a victim of its own success. I've said it before, but I honestly think RTD's decision to make the 10th Doctor a 'sexy' space Jesus and the formulaic pandering to the public template he so often employed ended up damaging the show creatively he strived so hard to appeal to widest demographic possible it ultimately lessened the franchise for me... that's not just bias or entitlement on my part, but for a show about Time Travel and an mysterious alien wanderer I think making the show too accessible kinda kills the magic. It says something when even now the Facebook page/forums are still flooded with people demanding Tennant to return, regardless of the need to press forward rather than looking backwards...
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 12:16:10 GMT
The facts about Doctor Who selling to other countries and therefore will not be cancelled, was also the case back in the 80's, a period throughout which, Doctor Who's selling abroad actually grew. However, the BBC has a 'duty' to provide for viewers of the UK more than abroad, and if those viewers would sooner watch whatever light-hearted gameshow, or 'talent-scouring' circus is on the other side, then a cheaper alternative could be brought into replace Doctor Who. Right but even Alan Yentob said if he was in his job as controller of BBC1 a few years earlier, the show would never have been off-air. I think it was probably time for a rest regardless so maybe it's for the best that he wasn't but Jonathan Powell just didn't get the show and he wasn't for turning. I'd also consider that the movie rights - which Yentob was involved with - were up for negotating very early after the show was "rested" so while the TV aspect was dialed down there was no plan to kill the franchise. Quite the opposite - it was to move to cinemas so the facts about the show doing well commercially are very relevant eve in the context of the 1980s cancellation as big box office revenues were expected to follow in the 90s. They stopped the TV show but still had expectations of the fanchose tuning BIG money going forward. Jean-Marc Loficier's Nth Doctor book is a fascinating look at the many, many attempts to get the movie made.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 12:20:26 GMT
I'd think the Beeb would be delighted with 4 billion. You're talking overnights which mean nothing - the Smile ratings are at 6 million when taking 7 day catchup into account. We don't get the "final" figure until 28 days later. The Pilot got 6.68m again without the final figure - higher than quite a few of Matt SMith's stories in Series 7. So, sure, the ratings are down from the show's peak with Tennant's last 2 years but it's still getting 6mill at least and beating a successful show like Mrs Brown. The show is in no danger whatsoever, it's a marketing juggernaut that the Beeb own 100% unlike, say, Top Gear. Matt Smith lost 2 million viewers in the 3 weeks between Bells Of St ohn and Hide. TWO MILLION. Yet that wasn't a "slump" or a "crisis". Why? Because the tabloids never called it one. Don't let redtops interpret facts for you and control the narrative. Please, as if I'd let The Sun tell me about the world. Doctor Who isn't going anywhere, I'm more interested in why people think that there has been a decline in viewership because I can see it outside of the figures as well. Is it timing, social trends, characters, tone, content, something else entirely?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 12:41:38 GMT
I'd think the Beeb would be delighted with 4 billion. You're talking overnights which mean nothing - the Smile ratings are at 6 million when taking 7 day catchup into account. We don't get the "final" figure until 28 days later. The Pilot got 6.68m again without the final figure - higher than quite a few of Matt SMith's stories in Series 7. So, sure, the ratings are down from the show's peak with Tennant's last 2 years but it's still getting 6mill at least and beating a successful show like Mrs Brown. The show is in no danger whatsoever, it's a marketing juggernaut that the Beeb own 100% unlike, say, Top Gear. Matt Smith lost 2 million viewers in the 3 weeks between Bells Of St ohn and Hide. TWO MILLION. Yet that wasn't a "slump" or a "crisis". Why? Because the tabloids never called it one. Don't let redtops interpret facts for you and control the narrative. Please, as if I'd let The Sun tell me about the world. Doctor Who isn't going anywhere, I'm more interested in why people think that there has been a decline in viewership because I can see it outside of the figures as well. Is it timing, social trends, characters, tone, content, something else entirely? Don't mention "tabloid gossip" in your opening post then? If we're all agreed that the show isn't in any danger whatsoever then "woes" might not be the most apposite word for the title of the thread. I just cited Matt's Series 7 as a place where ratings weren't as good - Hide, Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS, Nightmare In Silver and The Crimson Horror all got ratings less than The Pilot and about what Smile will get with the +28 days numbers. That was four years ago in the same Spring timeslot but there was no talk about slumps and declines - probably because Matt was leaving and the 50th would get big numbers anyway. The Pilot even got better ratings than Silence In The Library and The Poisoned Sky from Tennant's last series. Untill there's a decline to levels that are worrying for the show's future, and these just aren't, I'm not sure there's much need for a post-mortem when the patient is fine and dandy.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on May 3, 2017 12:49:37 GMT
Without reading anything else in this thread topic.. that year off killed a lot of momentum - plain and simple.
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Post by mark687 on May 3, 2017 13:01:48 GMT
The +28 Day figures are they being applied to the overall figures this year?
Cause in that case the +7 Days Figures are a next to useless indictor.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 13:05:59 GMT
Please, as if I'd let The Sun tell me about the world. Doctor Who isn't going anywhere, I'm more interested in why people think that there has been a decline in viewership because I can see it outside of the figures as well. Is it timing, social trends, characters, tone, content, something else entirely? Don't mention "tabloid gossip" in your opening post then? I just cited Matt's Series 7 as a place where ratings weren't as good - Hide, Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS, Nightmare In Silver and The Crimson Horror all got ratings less than The Pilot and about what Smile will get with the +28 days numbers. That was four years ago in the same Spring timeslot but there was no talk about slumps and declines - probably because Matt was leaving and the 50th would get big numbers anyway. The Pilot even got better ratings than Silence In The Library and The Poisoned Sky from Tennant's last series. Oh, I see, your frame of reference is off. I did mention how ratings are no measure of quality, I took it as writ that people wouldn't take tabloid gossip seriously. There's been a misjudgment of the question's emphasis, I'll amend that. I just cited Matt's Series 7 as a place where ratings weren't as good - Hide, Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS, Nightmare In Silver and The Crimson Horror all got ratings less than The Pilot and about what Smile will get with the +28 days numbers. That was four years ago in the same Spring timeslot but there was no talk about slumps and declines - probably because Matt was leaving and the 50th would get big numbers anyway. The Pilot even got better ratings than Silence In The Library and The Poisoned Sky from Tennant's last series. Untill there's a decline to levels that are worrying for the show's future, and these just aren't, I'm not sure there's much need for a post-mortem when the patient is fine and dandy. That is why I said "currently believe". Both are very subjective words. And if that's true, then we have nothing to fear on that end, roll on...
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bobod
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Post by bobod on May 3, 2017 13:12:41 GMT
I don't believe there is one.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 13:19:31 GMT
The +28 Day figures are they being applied to the overall figures this year? Cause in that case the +7 Days Figures are a next to useless indictor. Regards mark687 Yes, BARB measure up to 28 days. I'm not sure the 7 days is useless though as the shift from +7 to +28 is never anywhere near as big, not even close. Essentially after the 7 days we have a solid idea on how many will see the ep.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 13:20:41 GMT
The +28 Day figures are they being applied to the overall figures this year? Cause in that case the +7 Days Figures are a next to useless indictor. Regards mark687 Yes, BARB measure up to 28 days. I'm not sure the 7 days is useless though as the shift from +7 to +28 is never anywhere near as big, not even close. Essentially after the 7 days we have a solid idea on how many will see the ep. Yeah, that tends to be a much more reliable means of measurement. The current series is impossible to measure because, well, it's still airing and only three episodes in. Fingers crossed it improves, I'd like to see that. I don't believe there is one. Averages as sourced from here. Slump is definitely the word for it. It's certainly not a plummet, just a noticeable sag.
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Post by doctorkernow on May 3, 2017 13:24:39 GMT
Hello again. The way we consume television has already changed. IPlayer means we can create our own TV schedules. Sky and now Amazon and Netflix are creating new quality content all the time. Our British stalwarts BBC, ITV and C4 our still creating excellent programmes. There is a glut of television. The viewing population is fragmented. There is too much choice, so that programmes are more likely to be watched on catch-up. The ratings system will take these changes into account. I think that some current freeview channels will not survive. The only thing that is slowing the adoption of "smart" boxes like fire TV stick or NOW TV box is broadband availability and speed. Some areas have awful broadband speed, and so "smart" boxes are of little use. How long the licence fee will exist is another interesting question. It will perhaps help fund Channel 4 programming too. Doctor Who is now a worldwide brand, and its ratings ebb and flow like the tide, same as any other show. A new Doctor and new production crew will probably bring in some new viewers. However, with short rests, like 2016, Dr Who will continue towards its 60th anniversary and beyond. We are nowhere near where we were in 1989 when Dr. Who Season 26 suddenly appeared with little promotion from the BBC against that juggernaut Corrie. Thank goodness.
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Post by mark687 on May 3, 2017 13:45:44 GMT
Now the brakes could be a damaging factor, it stayed the public conscious for 5 years regular new output. then it was assumed it could be paused for over a year at a time and you'd still the general viewer rush, maybe it is just a matter of keeping in the talk show morning show limelight every week during transmission. There should be a viewer increase this week just because David Suchet is starring and that's worth a lot of general promotion.
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 14:13:08 GMT
With The Pilot having stronger ratings than all of Series 9 and cracking the Top 10 overall shows for the week for the first time since Listen, I'm not sure - sorry to disagree Mark and Aussie - the break has done anything negative at all, in the UK anyway. If it had done, The Pilot wouldn't have beaten all of S9 out the gate.
Charlotte Moore, Moffat and Capaldi all publicly said they wanted Who back at 7pm or so, that's impossible in the Autumn where Strictly rules so a Spring broadcast was the only real choice. They couldn't go straight from making Series 9 into making Series 10 so Spring '16 was always impossible. The only way around it was for the show to take a "year off" - and really it was only 5 months as we're always a full year between series even when they are regular. We got it early 2017 rather than late 2016...not that much difference compared to the altenative:
Moffat thought he was done after Husbands Of River Song - he had zero plans to stay after it. If he said "No, thanks" to the Beeb asking him to stay for Series 10 there's a real chance we would have had nothing between Series 9 in 2015 and Series 10 in 2018 when Chibnall's series airs. THAT would have been worrying. We'd have seen no Doctor Who for 2 and a half years. Just imagine...
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