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Post by kimalysong on May 3, 2017 14:45:16 GMT
This is not about ratings (except I will say TV ratings in general or down so you have to compare Doctor Who to other TV series that are on now, not how it did against Doctor Who seasons previously)
But I don't understand why we put Doctor Who on so late in the US. It's on at 9:00 PM here. That seems way too late for a family show. Even a hr earlier at 8:00 PM makes way more sense to me. Just some random thoughts.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 14:51:28 GMT
I agree with this (though personally I actually warmed to Capaldi's Doctor immediately, it took me a whole series to get used to Smith...what that says about my personality I don't know...) New Who may ultimately end up being a victim of its own success. I've said it before, but I honestly think RTD's decision to make the 10th Doctor a 'sexy' space Jesus and the formulaic pandering to the public template he so often employed ended up damaging the show creatively he strived so hard to appeal to widest demographic possible it ultimately lessened the franchise for me... that's not just bias or entitlement on my part, but for a show about Time Travel and an mysterious alien wanderer I think making the show too accessible kinda kills the magic. It says something when even now the Facebook page/forums are still flooded with people demanding Tennant to return, regardless of the need to press forward rather than looking backwards... I wasn't keen on the messiah-type twist the Tennant years featured, it didn't appeal to me. But there's no denying it appealed to vast swathes of the general public, I think. RTD's vision only lessened the franchise - in my opinion - because it was doubtful anything that followed could be as popular, ratings-wise. And this is part of the problem. Doctor Who is hardly in the doldrums. True, its ratings - especially the overnights - could and should be much higher (I mean, it should be getting 12 million a week and beating dreck like Britain's Got Talent into a cocked hat - but that's just my opinion), but they seem less than they are because we saw how popular Doctor Who has been in the recent past. Even RTD was flabbergasted by the ratings and media interest in stories like Journey's End and The Stolen Earth. But we can't have giant team-ups like that every week without it getting stale very quickly. Scheduling has been used as a reason for the decline in ratings. Some want it on later, now I hear there's a call (by fans, of course) for it to be broadcast earlier. Some cried out for an autumn run, others wanted a return to an Easter start. In the event, none of these things has particularly bolstered the gentle viewer descent. I think it's just a case of this current Doctor not ticking the boxes Smith and Tennant did. And it saddens me beyond belief to think that the public are seemingly fickle like that.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 15:36:32 GMT
I think it's Capaldi that's killing the show and I'm sticking by that.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:41:29 GMT
I think it's Capaldi that's killing the show and I'm sticking by that. Anything is possible, but for me Peter Capaldi is a breath of fresh air after Matt Smith.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:43:00 GMT
I think it's Capaldi that's killing the show and I'm sticking by that. Anything is possible, but for me Peter Capaldi is a breath of fresh air after Matt Smith. For me too, much like Matt Smith was a breath of fresh air after David Tennant. I'm not sure the majority of the viewing public agree though.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:45:29 GMT
I think it's Capaldi that's killing the show and I'm sticking by that. Anything is possible, but for me Peter Capaldi is a breath of fresh air after Matt Smith. For the fandom, I'd agree. But I think he's just not a Doctor for the public. He feels like a manifestation of the 1st and 6th Doctor, but Scottish. I know, you lot like the 6th Doctor, but you seem to forget that the public hate him.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:48:43 GMT
Anything is possible, but for me Peter Capaldi is a breath of fresh air after Matt Smith. For me too, much like Matt Smith was a breath of fresh air after David Tennant. I'm not sure the majority of the viewing public agree though. I don't see Doctor Who as dying on it's feet, overnight ratings go up and down during a season, that's life. People watch TV in different ways in 2017. However, I really don't see Doctor Who with Peter Capaldi as being in terminal decline.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:53:21 GMT
For me too, much like Matt Smith was a breath of fresh air after David Tennant. I'm not sure the majority of the viewing public agree though. I don't see Doctor Who as dying on it's feet, overnight ratings go up and down during a season, that's life. People watch TV in different ways in 2017. However, I really don't see Doctor Who with Peter Capaldi as being in terminal decline. It's going down, I'll say that. I mean, in a couple of weeks, unless they suddenly announce who the next Doctor is, the show won't go up, in terms of ratings.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:55:46 GMT
Anything is possible, but for me Peter Capaldi is a breath of fresh air after Matt Smith. I know, you lot like the 6th Doctor, but you seem to forget that the public hate him. Well I hated most of the 6th Doctor's TV stories too, and I lived through them! There is a reason some of them prop up DWM/fan polls, as a lot of them really were awful. The people here who like the 6th Doctor probably do so in the main because of the Big Finish 6th Doctor audios, which are generally top notch stories that do justice to the 6th Doctor. So two different things.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2017 16:57:48 GMT
I know, you lot like the 6th Doctor, but you seem to forget that the public hate him. Well I hated most of the 6th Doctor's TV stories too, and I lived through them! There is a reason some of them prop up DWM/fan polls, as a lot of them really were awful. The people here who like the 6th Doctor probably do so in the main because of the Big Finish 6th Doctor audios, which are generally top notch stories that do justice to the 6th Doctor. So two different things. I know, but my point is that Capaldi doesn't appeal to anyone, apart from people who seem to like older Doctors who are literally like previous Doctors. I think people want something fresh and interesting. Not grumpy and a repeat of previous Doctors, which he is. Ironically, he feels a bit like some kind of bad hybrid.
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Post by coffeeaddict on May 3, 2017 17:11:04 GMT
I think it's Capaldi that's killing the show and I'm sticking by that. Personally I prefer Capaldi to Smith or Tennant (me thinks a few heads just exploded). It's his companions I'm not thrilled with.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on May 3, 2017 17:15:05 GMT
Well I hated most of the 6th Doctor's TV stories too, and I lived through them! There is a reason some of them prop up DWM/fan polls, as a lot of them really were awful. The people here who like the 6th Doctor probably do so in the main because of the Big Finish 6th Doctor audios, which are generally top notch stories that do justice to the 6th Doctor. So two different things. I know, but my point is that Capaldi doesn't appeal to anyone, apart from people who seem to like older Doctors who are literally like previous Doctors. I think people want something fresh and interesting. Not grumpy and a repeat of previous Doctors, which he is. Ironically, he feels a bit like some kind of bad hybrid. In your opinion, I've seen lots of people-fans and casual viewers alike praising Capaldi's Doctor (though views on the actual stories are much more divided), for me he's everything I wanted from a New Who Doctor, I had seen barely any of the Classic serials when Deep Breath first aired and had grown up on the Tennant episodes but Capaldi's Doctor hooked me from the start, I had more issues with Smith's performance which hearkens back too much to Troughton's Dr for my liking My 'not we' parents have scarcely watched any Classic serials since they first aired and are casual viewers at best (they didn't enjoy or watch much of the Smith episodes...neither did I...) but have both praised Capaldi's Doctor. I don't consider Capaldi's doctor to be that much grumpier that Hartnell or Eccleston, more pragmatic and detatched perhaps...
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aztec
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Post by aztec on May 3, 2017 17:20:45 GMT
I think it's Capaldi that's killing the show and I'm sticking by that. Personally I prefer Capaldi to Smith or Tennant (me thinks a few heads just exploded). It's his companions I'm not thrilled with. I can't make up my mind if Capaldi ties with McGann as my favourite Doctor or sits just below... I didn't have a strong opinion on Clara either way other than the fact that she stayed too long and wasn't grounded enough to act as a parallel to Capaldi's more reserved Doctor, Coleman is a fantastic actress but Clara's character development didn't come across as organic to me and I really felt like Capaldi was left with the Smith leftovers for too long to form his own identity, Bill has only three stories so far but she's a very promising companion bringing out the best in Capaldi's Doctor and forming a nice contrast to the impossible girls of recent years i.m.o. Nardole hasn't had much to do, but I love the dynamic he has with the 12th Doctor...it's kinda weird to say but depending on how Series 10 goes he might become my favourite 12th Dr companion. What I really wanted to see was Frank Skinner return as Perkins, he would have made a great companion...
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Post by acousticwolf on May 3, 2017 19:00:25 GMT
If they manage to keep the next Doctor a secret, imagine what that will do to the ratings of Capaldi's last episode...
Cheers
Tony
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 6:16:31 GMT
To me the show just feels stale. There's no real tension in it anymore as you know everything will be fixed with a hand-wave at the end. There's no reason therefore for vasual viewers to get invested in it because they know what it's going to be like.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 9:05:04 GMT
I know, but my point is that Capaldi doesn't appeal to anyone, apart from people who seem to like older Doctors who are literally like previous Doctors. I think people want something fresh and interesting. Not grumpy and a repeat of previous Doctors, which he is. Ironically, he feels a bit like some kind of bad hybrid. In your opinion, I've seen lots of people-fans and casual viewers alike praising Capaldi's Doctor (though views on the actual stories are much more divided), for me he's everything I wanted from a New Who Doctor, I had seen barely any of the Classic serials when Deep Breath first aired and had grown up on the Tennant episodes but Capaldi's Doctor hooked me from the start, I had more issues with Smith's performance which hearkens back too much to Troughton's Dr for my liking My 'not we' parents have scarcely watched any Classic serials since they first aired and are casual viewers at best (they didn't enjoy or watch much of the Smith episodes...neither did I...) but have both praised Capaldi's Doctor. I don't consider Capaldi's doctor to be that much grumpier that Hartnell or Eccleston, more pragmatic and detatched perhaps... I'm reminded a bit of the Twelfth Doctor explaining his viewpoint to Bill in Thin Ice, there really needed to be a scene like that early on in his first year. We didn't really get to see inside until Mummy on the Orient Express and with his companion calling him out on his actions almost from the get-go, he needed a much stronger defence. The First Doctor was unpredictable, but he was grounded by his curiosity and his affection for Susan. The Ninth Doctor's grief and his much larger worldview made him distant, but still relatable. The Twelfth Doctor had nothing to ground him and was up against an arc that was deliberately undermining his character -- "Am I a good man?" I didn't have a strong opinion on Clara either way other than the fact that she stayed too long and wasn't grounded enough to act as a parallel to Capaldi's more reserved Doctor, Coleman is a fantastic actress but Clara's character development didn't come across as organic to me and I really felt like Capaldi was left with the Smith leftovers for too long to form his own identity Yeah, that was the problem we had at home too. Everyone watching was waiting for the Twelfth Doctor to show up, but the Eleventh hadn't moved out yet. The phone call at the end of Deep Breath caused my father pause. He said that she was staying on not because she'd accepted the new Doctor, but because she was waiting for the old one to show up and that's... not inaccurate when you look at it. He felt as though he was still being written as his batty predecessor and a lot of people I know who dropped the show drifted away because of that. Either that or the new format. I think the most memorable was a friend who said he'd defected to Rick and Morty because it was "like Doctor Who, but more honest." Didn't really know what to say to that one.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 11:53:08 GMT
I still think the phone call scene was a terrible idea, that did Capaldi's Doctor no favours at all really.
I mean you literally have the previous Doctor ringing up to vouch for the new Doctor, rather than having the new Doctor authoritatively grasping the reigns and taking control of the role and his own destiny for himself. It makes it look like he was gifted the role, rather than rightfully owning it. It also reminded people of the previous Doctor they had just lost right when all the focus should have been on the new Doctor we'd just gotten. Transitions are hard enough on some parts of the audience, without the previous guy not actually staying gone.
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Post by muckypup on May 4, 2017 11:58:14 GMT
i have to agree that Capaldi is the biggest problem for TV Who, but the convoluted stories from the past 2 seasons and a companions past their shelf life have also contributed to the decline.
the few people i have spoke to about this series have all said the same thing, Bill is OK, the doctor is still unlikable (and one said he still scared his 9 year old) but the stories, dialogue & conclusions are awful its got no better.....and all three have given up till the regen but might watch on iplayer if hear its a good one.
if this is the view of the casual viewers i know, its not hard to see how drops in overnights happen, but its holding its on in the placings and still about same when you total in timeshift and re-runs
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Post by mark687 on May 4, 2017 12:34:24 GMT
I still think the phone call scene was a terrible idea, that did Capaldi's Doctor no favours at all really. I mean you literally have the previous Doctor ringing up to vouch for the new Doctor, rather than having the new Doctor authoritatively grasping the reigns and taking control of the role and his own destiny for himself. It makes it look like he was gifted the role, rather than rightfully owning it. It also reminded people of the previous Doctor they had just lost right when all the focus should have been on the new Doctor we'd just gotten. Transitions are hard enough on some parts of the audience, without the previous guy not actually staying gone. And it didn't work anyway one of very few times the Doctor is looking for validation and she refuses to give it, she'd rather half-heartily pursue the Danny Pink relationship.
I've never had a problem with Capaldi's performance but the Clara/Doctor companion relationship Post Day of I never understood
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2017 21:06:21 GMT
Whilst I understand the comments above, I really enjoyed the phone-call scene. It was a surprise, and it was good to see The Eleventh Doctor once more, although obviously in some distress. I don't think the scene lasted long enough to do any harm to Capaldi's introductory episode - he was (and still is, but less so) deliberately written as a more distant, less touchy-feely Doctor than Matt's had been, and therefore it was good that Clara (and the audience) was reassured.
I also find it disheartening that people think that Capaldi as a scary Doctor is a bad thing. I loved that about the earlier Doctors. Tom Baker has never been more terrifying than when he hypnotised Sarah in 'Terror of the Zygons', to my mind - and I loved him for it. But that moment, and moments like it, were balanced by moments of great, broad humour that The Twelfth Doctor hasn't really had.
I can't fault Capaldi, or his performance. I really can't. Also, I've enjoyed the majority of his stories. In fact, I'm grateful the 'love' relationship between Doctor/companion has been curtailed. And yet, I think the audience at large - not neccessarily Doctor Who fans - see those days of the companion and the Doctor having an intimate relationship, is somehow 'proper' Doctor Who. I'm not keen on that myself, but I think at least a couple of million viewers are.
I think if the Twelfth Doctor had been written as he is being written for this latest series 10, at the beginning of his tenure, perhaps the viewing figures wouldn't have dwindled quite as much. He's likeable now, but I don't think that's what the writers were going for in series 8.
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